On warriors

Submit and discuss your ideas for the MUD.

Who thinks warriors should get something new

Poll ended at Fri Jul 29, 2005 4:31 pm

yes
30
65%
no
16
35%
 
Total votes: 46
Nokar
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On warriors

Postby Nokar » Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:31 pm

How about we give something new to warriors. The last thing at 41 they have to look forward to is headbutt.

The skill is useful yes. But on too large or too short mobs is useless.
Let's say have either weapon specialization or give them triple attack or let them have mounted combat.... something.

Triple attack would be nice.

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Postby Sarell » Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:41 pm

I reckon a little upgrade of tank skills, a little downgrade on defense magic, but nothing new, like em how they are really.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:48 pm

Really, they are quite boring by design. Anything added to them might make them less boring, but would detract from their desireability. As it stands, anything that causes lag prevents them from doing their duties at bashing, rescuing, and shieldpunching. As it stands, a group requires someone to fill these niches. Adding more to the warrior class would be almost useless. They already have headbutt, a useless skill in a group. Bottom line, they'll never do as much melee damage as a rogue, never as much area as a voker, and can't heal anyone. They are a meatshield (unfortunately). Yes, i think this sucks, but that is just the way it is.

If you want a warrior with more "variety" try a ranger or paladin or anti. They have some alternative skills, but suffer in other areas, such as group invites. Of course, now that guard has been implimented, paladins might be excluded from the low group invites comment.
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Postby kiryan » Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:35 pm

i agree with sarell, however i voted no. tweaking this or that does not constitute something "new". I might've voted yes if the poll had said soemthing like a minimal impact new skill. new features are always great, new game breaking features or significant upgrades are not.
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Postby Vigis » Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:41 pm

Here are a couple of ideas I threw out. I don't know that any would be game breaking, but sure would add a little more fun.

And Delmair, I disagree. Warriors are not boring, unless you don't have a group.

Final Strike: A warrior in the low blinkies gets to use the skill for a chance at a vital strike.

Stubborn: Incapacitated warrior has a chance to roll for an instant 20 hp regen if successful so they can stand up and maybe even flee.

Battlerage: A chance to reduce damage slightly. It could work kind of like phantom heal in that after a certain period of time the warrior can't ignore their pain anymore and they lose all the hitpoints they would have lost if not in Battlerage.

My Reasoning:

Final Strike- Nothing pisses me off more than fleeing from a mob in awful condition just because I am blinking, could even let the skill lag a bit to guarantee that I am going to either kill or be killed

Stubborn- It really sucks laying on the ground for 3 minutes waiting to die or hoping that somebody in the group will be brave enough to run back in and heal me

Battlerage- This idea would have to be tweaked so that it wasn't too twinkable. Obviously it shouldn't let the warrior absorb as much damage as a shaman stoneskin, but it would let a warrior "ignore" his wounds for a time with a chance of being overcome by them and dying

Feel free to discredit :)
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Postby Nokar » Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:27 pm

I like the idea of a vital strike skill.
Rogues get:
Backstab
escape
vital strike
garrote
assasinate
shadow
missle snare

all of these can be useful.

I have even seen people twink using escape and backstab and solo crazy ass things.
For a warrior after level 38-40 what can they solo, with having normal gear?not something that vamps.
Not a whole hell of a lot.

Warriors are group dependable on xp after that.
I've seen rangers twink the DB in a one-way room and never get hit due to a damn mountain goat being in the middle.

Warriors in my opinion got the crap end of the stick. Warriors are suppose to be able to use anything and fight. We don't have any ranged skills, no mounted skills. We are meatshields.

Heck some of the most noted warrior of forgotten realms have used a bow, use mounted combat to slay their enemy, etc.

I think a new skill or two wouldn't be asking that much. Hell what about a new innate skill for dwarves? or a subclass choice of battlerager dwarf?

How hard is it to pick up a bow and shoot an arrow and a lvl 50 warrior can't do it?
How hard is it for a being to learn how to fight so good he can't know how to make a vital strike at lvl 50?
Warriors=fighting a lot! should = learned weaknesses of their foes.

I know some of you don't agree with my statements. But look at it logically.
Yes thieves learn how to do a lot of vile evil things. But, should they take all the glory of being the highest damage in melee?
I would agree if is was a backstab or an assassinate. But please they get extra damage skills.

What skills do we get as warrior that no other class has?
Headbutt
shieldpunch
shieldblock
dat's it.
others rescue
others bash
others dodge
others parry
others disarm
others dual wield
etc.
Hell anti's even get apply poison at lvl 30
Paladin's got guard
To say the only thing a warrior is good for is ludricrous. Warriors are FIGHTERS... They fight.

I am not asking for a whole new revamping of the class but damn just a couple of nice skills that actually makes us useful and a bit more tempting to invite to a group.

Jeez...
Look at it this way

If you already had a tank and you had a choice (in the melee class) which would you pick?
Ranger
Rogue
Warrior

Unbiased! Not your friend asking to join your group. A total stranger.
You are more likely to pick a ranger or a rogue. Rogue for damage, backstab etc. and ranger for archery!

A group needs at most 3 tanks, 2 if they are 1k+ tanks. and thats all you'll have. You won't invite anymore because you want damage. Or other skills.

Nuff said... I've rambled on enough.

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Postby kiryan » Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:30 pm

a bit more tempting to invite?

CHRIST there are 2-3 group slots reserved in every zone group for a tank and usually they are filled with warriors because they are more dependable.

being able to pick up a bow and shoot it is not the same as being highly trained in archery. capability to shoot a bow does not equal comfortability in using a bow in group combat. sure some warriors can even become really good at the bow but they choose to fulfill the role of a tank in combat. Really it comes down to "roles" warriors choose the tank role, not the archery role, not the healing role, not the sneaky backstabing or solo roles so thats what they do in the "playing" portion of the game. I don't think anyone here is saying you can't RP a fighter who also has archery skills, but that shouldn't change anything about your skills in the game.

I can understand the "boring" comment from warriors. Their primary function in a group is to rescue and they rely on everyone else for everything else.. heals, defensive spells, damage. however, truly how often is a fight truly boring. Nearly every fight warriors are called upon to rescue one or more people and the fate of the entire group hinges on warriors ability to rescue.

Your solution to the "boring" warrior problem is turn off your auto rescue... let a few people die and see how suddenenly you start staring intently at the screen and swearing about how fast the mobs switch or not being able to type fast enough. If you think your going to find happiness in a reflexive skill at 0 hps or an upgraded kick with flashing ansi your smoking or even a significant downgrade to defensive spells and an upgrade to defensive skills your smoking. None of it will give you any real satisfaction. A new procing shiny sword will do more for the class than any skill change.
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Postby Nokar » Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:53 pm

ROFL! A new procing shiny sword?
Then who would have it?
The ones who get into the groups.
A new piece of spiffy spanky eq will not make a class more desireable.


highly trained in archery?

Have you ever shot a bow?
I don't mean a compound bow either.
a open sight recurve bow.
Firing in rapid succession can be done. It is done in certain tournaments around the world.

Now look at this as how the mud has it.

You have an unrealistic fight. A ranger (archery specialist that is highly trained) standing less than 50 feet away firing 3 arrows into a melee.
Please! even one arrow a round would not happen.

being able to pick up a bow and shoot it is not the same as being highly trained in archery. capability to shoot a bow does not equal comfortability in using a bow in group combat. Really it comes down to "roles" warriors choose the tank role, not the archery role, not the healing role, not the sneaky backstabing or solo roles.


Roles...
warriors can't choose the healing role, they cant choose the backstabbing roles.
But anyone could pick up a damn bow and learn how to use it and be comfortable with it.

Bah!

I dont mind being a tank, a metashield if you will. not at all. But I do mind people who say well thats your job then complain that there's not enough 850-900+ HP tanks around not enough master rescue, master basher, masterblah blah blah around.
I've seen rogues, and certain casters, pallies, and antis' get xp like mad soloing. If a tank is a required class for a group then why is it for xp you only take one with you when 2 or three are needed for a zone?

Warriors as then stand now are a group dependent class for xp progression.
Each class has it's own solo cap.
Hell a enchanter solo elites, entrance to BB, all kinds of nasty things.
Mentalists can solo up to and almost 50
rogues can come close
bards can solo like crazy.
anti's and pallies can solo due to innate abilities against good or evil aligned mobs.
etc.

So just because we are a meatshield a tank, not good for anything else but that, we shouldn't get another attack or another skill that doesn't take away from their role as being a tank.
Bah!

I'm done ranting now.

Oh and I don't use auto-resc triggers.
rofl.. hehe ask anyone I've tanked for. They find out. I do well enough though typing and using macros.

and to make any class unboring turn off their trigger-set. That's not just for warriors. I've played rangers, warriors, shaman, conjies, sorcies, invokers, bards, enchanters... I've played many classes in the 10+ years I've been here. I prefer warriors.

As far as tanks go with spiffy stuff I think anti-paladins are awesome! They get their spiffy sword that heals them. blinds and whatever else hell you might only need a bard to do some things, and mebbe a little enchanter with !fail stone and your good.

Just my opinion.
I think warriors need something else to them. You say they are a requirement for a zone, yet you might be one of the ones who say sorry group full already have a tank. simply because we have nothing to give other than being a shield.
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Postby Vigis » Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:59 am

Not to take away from you Nokar (cuz as is shown in my earlier post, I'd love to see warriors get something), but one of the main reasons that there is only 1 warrior per exp group is that warriors are the ones leading it. I know that when I was leveling up to 50 I practiced my rescue up to max at nearly every level (and after 46 maxed it before I went out to gain a new one) so I would often leave warriors out of my xp groups because of the tendency of some warriors to try playing musical tank. I never minded when it was a warrior I had known for a long time and knew their playing style etc, but when somebody would rescue me and lag us both only for the mob to switch to one of the support classes and kill them, it irked me. Thus, I removed the temptation of musical tanks by removing the slot for another warrior.

Warriors who want to exp can only get it with a group. Oftentimes, the only way for that warrior to get a group is to form it themselves.

Kiryan, I wasn't suggesting that a reflexive skill for a chance at a Vital Strike type attack would make warriors more desirable to a group, but it sure as hell would make me feel a bit better about dying if I managed to really hurt the bastard that is killing me. Especially since at minimum hps the chance of me firing off another successful rescue is slim to none.

The ideas I proposed are in no way meant to make a warrior more desirable for zoning; they are already needed. Instead, I was hoping to see something that might give a warrior that tiny bit of a chance to keep living. I don't have a problem with dying multiple times (I actually find it fun unless it was my own fault) but it is a bigger rush when I actually live through a close (suicidal?) fight.

Oh, and in case anybody was wondering with gear I have 939 hps pre-vit. and max AC :)
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Postby Pril » Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:11 pm

Nokar i have to disagree with you about a few things. Warriors can solo just as well as anti-paladins if the anti-pallie doesn't have a dk. And while rogues can assassinate, solo exping as a rogue if you don't have khanjari's is painful in the least. The easy solution to soloing as any class is potions. Stone potions, heal potions, vit potions, dispel magic potions, globe potions, etc.

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Postby kiryan » Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:09 pm

the reason why you dont have more than 1 warrior in an exp group is because BIG EXP GROUPS SUCK SH!T FOR EXP so you take exactly what you need and no more.

the second reason why there are 2-3 tanks slots in a group is because you need multiple rescuers not because you need multiple tanks. You can probably still get by with one tank in a group even with the defensive code changes last year, but you can not get by with 1 rescuer.

my comment about archery still stands, sure anyone can train and use a bow, however you'd expect some of their other skills to suffer and thats where hybrids like ranger come into play. More importantly its about the role your character chooses to play. When you go zoning your choosing to participate as a tank/rescuer not as an archer because its what your best at. If you want to participate as a archer roll a ranger. If you want the flexibility in one character go play a hybrid (like ranger) or go play a skill based mud, one that doesnt have any classes.

if warriors are more fun than all the other classes for you to play, then why do they need any changes?
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Postby Birile » Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:36 pm

In regards to the idea that a warrior is a boring class to play... maybe you guys get jaded or bored or something at the idea of tanking 15 mobs at a time, but the few times I, as Birile (a 3.5 foot halfling who sings for a living), have had to tank multiple mobs when the warriors go down have been the most fun I've ever had in the game. Period. And most of those times I was successful--with my measly defense and dodge skills and no more spells than a warrior gets. So do I think warriors need another skill? Not particularly! You guys rock! I mean, what a thrill trying to fend off all of these mobs at one time, knowing that if you go down then the entire group could be SOL. I've never had such an adrenaline rush before. But, like I said, maybe you guys think of that as ho-hum.

*shrug*
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Postby kiryan » Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:32 pm

i get the rush from rescuing other players first and from being the MT.

however, warrioring is often reduced to turning on auto rescuing and praying that you get a scale and a full heal before you die. If your not main tank you don't even walk.
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Postby Sarell » Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:28 am

Even if I play lots of other stuff I'm a pretty experienced at warrior, have always thought of warrior as my prime and have been primary warrior for every zone on the mud (discluding some obscure evil only ones). One of the fun things I find about a warrior is that you do do different things for different zones. There are bash zones, rescue zones, headbutt zones, zones where you need to lure or engage mobs first, zones where you just need to stand on your feet and be ready with your potions bacause the ammount of damage you could take at any second is ridiculous. I really enjoy it. Warriors are often called on to bakup the leader with calling when to go on zones like spob which is a blast as a warrior. You'd be shocked and amazed too how much headbutt does when your not doing all the other things you have to aswell. In a straight up fight I managed to headbutt weylarii to death with ladak, Wey with 70+dam during chaos with artifacts, Ladak is his stupid red gear.

Now, that part where it was claimed someone would take a ranger before a second warrior, that was pure ridiculous gold or only applies to an exp sized group. Here's how I form a group. I find 2 or even better 3 warriors, if I cant get warriors then pallies, if not antis, then a shaman. Then I fill it with a chanter when I can, and a cleric. Then you start adding an illusionist if one is available and then other people. If you don't have your tanks, the group is going nowhere.

I'd hate for warriors to start picking up rogue skills, ranger skills, or even restrung versions of them, just makes it boing and flat. I'd like them to be better at tanking, and every other class worse at tanking. Toril is a team sport!
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Postby Birile » Fri Jul 01, 2005 2:35 pm

Sarell wrote:I'd like them to be better at tanking, and every other class worse at tanking. Toril is a team sport!


Seconded.
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Postby kiryan » Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:42 pm

which means downgrade defensive spells.
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Postby Birile » Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:45 pm

kiryan wrote:which means downgrade defensive spells.


Having characters with displacement, stoneskin and other various and sundry defensive spells, I wouldn't mind this.

Possibly lowering the caps on some defensive skills of some classes would be another suggestion.
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Postby Yasden » Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:50 pm

Downgrading defensive spells won't do much other than making everyone need healing more often.

What needs to be done is skills put into check with stats (str and con instead of f'ing agi/dex), skills possibly reworked or even some added (more counterattacks like riposte, possibly a vital strike-esque skill or similar) to make the defensive capabilities of a warrior far superior to that of any other.

Warriors are supposed to be the true "weapon masters". However, using any 2-handed weapon makes them about as worthless as tits on a boar. This needs to be corrected in some way.

I also think a majority of the 2handers either need to have their dice upgraded, or converted to 1h. Twilight being 1h would instantly make warriors do some excellent damage again, albeit possibly too much. Yes, warriors are supposed to have at least some semblance of damage capabilities.

Lowering defensive spells won't do much unless combined with these things. When they all happen, you can expect things to have a huge turnaround for warriors.

Just my thoughts.

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Postby Birile » Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:05 pm

Yasden wrote:What needs to be done is skills put into check with stats (str and con instead of f'ing agi/dex), skills possibly reworked or even some added (more counterattacks like riposte, possibly a vital strike-esque skill or similar) to make the defensive capabilities of a warrior far superior to that of any other.


I guess I'm confused as to how giving warriors more offensive skills would "make the defensive capabilities of a warrior far superior to that of any other." (italics added)

I don't really see how giving warriors more offensive capabilities is all that much of an upgrade to the class, honestly. They do need to be set apart in the tanking area (by downgrading other classes' tanking capabilities, imho), but a vital strike-esque skill? Engh. Yes, it would be fun and yes technically it would be an upgrade but it's not the answer to finding any sort of _real_ upgrade to the class (for those who think the class needs one).
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Postby kiryan » Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:19 pm

I see warriors as tanks and rescuers, not weapon masters not damage contributers. They easily have more weapon skills and maximums than most classes so in that sense they are weapons masters.

I see warriors as emphasizing defensive fighting style and classes like paladin, anti and ranger emphasizing offensive. A warrior who chooses to emphasize offensive capability is really choosing to contribute to a group in a role other than warrior and his "class" should change to reflect this. Since changing classes doesn't make sense in our world a warrior is stuck being a defensive fighter.

I still don't understand how adding reflexive or actioned offensive skills is going to make warriors more interesting. It does however increase their damage output. It seems to me a few people are saying "warriors are boring" when they are really trying to say "upgrade warrior damage output". What exactly does make a class interesting?
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Postby Nokar » Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:27 pm

I guess my point is that warriors do need to be looked at. We need something besides spiffier eq to be more desireable in groups.
For my current leveled character that I play I can tank quite a bit.
But when I see a ranger rescue better or a paladin use guard and have a better chance at rescue than I do, AUTOMATICALLY, it is a little discouraging.

I recently led pship xp and was MT and MB(main basher) and rocked. The group I had worked togethor absolutely fargin awesome!
But!
I did very little rescuing because the mob was always down!
I know I know there are zones with !bash mobs. But if the mobs are blind they don't switch anyways. I always carry an ebony with me to fit this need. albeit not perm blind but by the time the blind wears off the mob is usually dead.

How about something added to riposte, or a added bonus to a shield block?
something that is defensive that also puts out damage would be nice.
How often does a warrior use headbutt?
Granted I use it when I solo hoping for it to stun the mob so it stays down longer when bashed.

But to say warrior are just fine the way they are and if you dont like it to change class isn't right.

I would like to see warrior have something else to look forward to besides headbutt at level 41.
Another added skill at 46 and 50 would be nice.
Why couldn't a lvl 50 warrior have a special defensive skill?
Like have an advanced riposte like yasden mentioned. When the lvl 46+ warrior riposts he has a high chance of hitting something vital.
Look how some sword manuevers are. There are some if executed correctly can behead a foe. It is a defensive skill not an offensive skill.
No I am not saying a warrior should have the chance to behead a huge dragon or a demon. Just a riposte skill that deals more damage. If we are just tanks who defend the group from harm then we should have been able to learn throughout the countless battles how to parry and strike better than most classes. I've seen rangers and rogues score more riposte hits than a warrior only because they can master dual wield. Granted you dont want your tank dualing while tanking. Still, add something to shieldblock. You can block an attack that opens your opponent up for a very vulnerable strike. especially a person using a 2h weapon. with both arms up and caught with the shield and line of sight blocked by the shield as well they'd never see a gut shot, hamstring shot, groin shot, throat shot coming at all. Even an opponent using a 1h weapon can be opened up to a vulnerable strike to the heart or lungs(with or without armor) with a shield.
There is a good chance that warriors could gain this and not throw the balance off. It is also a realistic skill. I don't speak for all warriors on here but I'd almost give up the disarm command skill for something new.
Disarm is kinda useless. I've only managed to actually get the weapon from the mob a few times without the mob getting it back. The, oh no you don't that belongs to me thing is blah!

Something else...
Shouldn't dorfs get bonuses for fighting things a lot bigger than they are?
That isn't a eq based bonus such as a certain weapon that instead of being +3 +3 normally give you +6 +6 when against giants.

Dwarves have fought bigger enemies for eons and have learned and have trained specifically to fight these larger foes. Shouldn't that account for something?

shrug.

Warriors in general need something else. I'm not saying make them ultra-tank-killing machines but a extra skill or two and they would be alot better to play.

and rangers get to master dual wield while warriors do not.
Yes we may get to master all the weapon categories but how many of those categories actually get used regularly?


With that I'm outta here...

L8r,
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Postby Yasden » Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:33 pm

Birile, I never said offensive. Skills like riposte and vital strike are reflexive. Reflexive skills are just like an innate. They just "exist".

I think I can honestly state that I know for a fact that maxed skills, weapon or otherwise, don't make much of a difference if you can't use them. Your weapon skills don't amount to crap if you're not doing any damage. It's just that simple. Why have them if you're not meant to use them? That's my issue with 2h weapons, and the low cap on dual wield.

You can argue all you want about the role of a warrior being that of a mage's bitch (that's all we really are), but those of us who have played warriors their entire mudding careers will tell you otherwise, and how much we hate being forced into the role of an "intelligent" elemental tank.

We rarely even use bash anymore, let alone the highly-unreliable shieldpunch (it's as reliable at charge when it's maxed). Rescue is the primary skill warriors use now, and all they are used for really. When paladins were given guard, it was a huge slap in the face for us in that aspect. Headbutt is used about the same as bash, if not more, for bashing larger mobs now.

Our job is not to stand there and get the crap beat out of us while the mages unload spells, our job is to be the front man, to ward off attacks and protect the others. When we can't do that because our skills suck or our spells fall, then what's the point? Personally, I'd rather go down fighting, knowing I at least contributed some form of harm to the mob before I did.

So sure, you EFHR's argue with me all you want about who's supposed to be doing the damage. I still think a warrior's niche for damage should be existant, ESPECIALLY IF YOU WANT TO MOVE AWAY FROM SPELL DAMAGE like you all keep spouting off about. Hypocrites. :P
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Postby kiryan » Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:18 pm

many people agree.

downgrade defensive spells, upgrade defensive skills.

i contend that this isn't something "new" as suggested by the thread topic its an adjustment.

----

boring is not resolved by adding new reflexive skills or final strikes that you can only use as you die. boring is resolved by giving warriors more to do in zone besides rescue. bash is extremely powerful yet fairly useless in zone because most mobs are !bash. Shieldpunch has been trumped by silence person and stuns. stnning !bash mobs was first implemented as shieldpunch and now has become the domain of spellcasters.

at present warriors exist solely to tank and rescue.
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Postby Nokar » Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:28 pm

I don't agree with downgrading defensive spells at all.
Upgrading warrior's defensive skill I do agree with.
The most taxing classes I have played as far as a zone goes is a bard and a enchanter. You are definitely not bored with these classes! constantly casting this and that or singing this and that.

Hell even enchanters get to contribute to damage with areas and constrictions!

To say all a warrior is good for is meatshield and rescue sucks!
We can do more than that. We should be able to do even more.

Lets throw out my suggestion for giving warriors ranged attacks. Thats fine.
Lets throw out a third or fourth attack... Thats fine.

Let's look more at defensive skills that are warrior only and not warrior-type only!

Just as Yasden pointed out.. A couple of reflexive skills added at the higher levels would be just fine. We wouldn't be like a ranger or a rogue who, when dualing, strike 5-7 times yet no on complains about that because thats what they are known for. I'll get to my point on that later.

soapbox-cue background humming
We as warriors, being the front men should have more to keep you dolts of casters from getting hit and/or bashed or otherwise killed. We are like a disposable lighter. Ooops MT died. Next warrior step up and accept your fate. Then the Previous MT sits for a while waiting on a ress or a well or a gate or some way of getting back his corpse. while if the tanks were doing their job, the casters sit there with their nose stuck in a book, memming.
What other class is used like warriors? none. Well if we are so expendable then we would at least like to contribute some damage to the cause!
/soapbox-/backgroud humming

How about allowing warriors to have a better riposte-like skill.
How about a reflexive skill for a vital strike.

Yasden was right about the slap in the face when pallies got guard. They have some much already why give them another skill that just makes straight warriors a little less desireable in groups?

Paladins and anti-paladins do more damage than a straight warrior. They also get bonuses like healing/harming mounted combat that they can summon and not buy. Yes I can summon my own mount provided I have a certain piece of eq but I can't use mounted combat.

As far as paladin and anti-paladin eq I don't even want to get started on that. I understand the concept of both the items as it is in forgotten realms. So I don't need an explanation on either.

Are the nifty neato warrior items that do the same as the paladin and anti-paladin items as common? Not from what I have seen. I know this isn't sojourn anymore but look at how the mud was 9-11 years ago. Avernus the life stealer. How many people had one. It was suppose to be one and due to a glitch 2 people had them. ONLY 2. and they were both warriors.

Look at just about every high level paladin and anti-paladin that have their class 'epic' 2handed badass weapon. Do warriors even have an epic here?
I took a long break do to RL reasons and am getting back into the swing of things.

As far as rangers and rogues. Yes first thing that comes to mind for rangers is Drizzt and first thing that comes to mind for a rogue is Artemis. You have to understand these were extraordinary characters not normal characters!
Thats why stories and tales were written about them. Any other rogue or ranger or warrior or wizard, etc. Were rarely ever mentioned by name let alone play a large role in a story. I can understand everyone wants to be a 'hero' or 'super-hero' but that can't be. These people had magic items out the arse, extra skills, etc. Not everyone will have that, period.

anyways.....

I've ranted enough for one day.

L8r,
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Postby bawog » Sat Jul 02, 2005 4:55 am

If anyone here was played an ogre warrior we all know that they are good for hardly anything. They are prolly the bottom of the barrel in terms of warriors except for their hp statistic. However perhaps that they could wield certain 2handed weapons? I mean they are over twice the size and strength of any of the other classes if you boil it down. Anywho its just an idea.
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Postby kiryan » Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:10 am

so you want to take a class that already tanks very well and improve it further? Many think dscales/blur/displace is too strong and upgrading tanking skills on top of these substantial defensive skills would be broken.

I do kinda agree that if warriors want to go 2h handed for damage that they should be able to contribute some decent damage in lieu of tanking... Exactly where they fall behind rangers and rogues I don't know

33% of rogue damage and 100% defense with a weapon and a shield
50% of rogue damage and 80% defense when dualing
66% of rogue damage and 60% defense when 2handing

rogue = 40% defense when wearing max ac


fyi "avernus" was given out as a god quest and was an artifact unique or whatever they want to call it. It was a very very powerful weapon and the gods have promised that nothing of the sort will be handed out this wipe.
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Postby Nokar » Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:38 am

Kiryan,
As I was told by Kalsor, who was a member of the Eye Aenterum(sp), It was the rarest load that loaded in the vault behind Tiamat. And He was the one who got it and that was the only one allowed in the game at the time and that was in 1994. A subsequent wipe after that 2 different people had it. Although I can't remember their damn names.

If I am wrong I will admit it but that was what the original owner told me.

L8r,
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Postby Nokar » Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:46 am

kiryan wrote:so you want to take a class that already tanks very well and improve it further? Many think dscales/blur/displace is too strong and upgrading tanking skills on top of these substantial defensive skills would be broken.


How would it be broken?
How would adding a reflexive skill or two make the class broken?
We may tank very well but we are not the only ones who can tank?
And if paladin's were already good to go why did they get a 'automatic' resc skill? To 'Guard' wouldn't that be more of a rp skill?

We may get shield block but, how does that stand up to a tank that can heal themselves?
Whether it be by their weapon or by their 'innate' class ability.

bawog,
At least ogres got doorbash. :P
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Postby bawog » Sat Jul 02, 2005 3:56 pm

Heh yea we get doorbash but we also get the 200 hp crits with scales :P
I mean i still like playing the ogre, but i think they need just a little lovin'. I'm not complaing about the class cause I do ok in zones, just the thought of a little advantage for playing the class with being beaten like a red headed step child is all.
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Postby Sarell » Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:10 am

It would be 'broken' to upgrade tank skills without changing defense spells because groups would instantly become far more powerful.
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Postby Nokar » Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:23 pm

It would be 'broken' to upgrade tank skills without changing defense spells because groups would instantly become far more powerful.


Sarell,
Please forgive my ignorance. I still don't understand how, adding one or two reflexive skills, would make it broken. These aren't command skills that you would type in. They would be like shieldblock, they just happen when they feel like happening. The skill level of the player would determine just how often it happened.

I could understand if it was a skill like bash, headbutt, shieldpunch, kick, etc. It wouldn't be. I really don't see why some people would feel threatened about warriors getting a couple new reflex skills. It wouldn't make them that much more powerful, and it wouldn't tip the balance of class power on the mud as a whole.

It's not like with that reflexive skill it would instakill the mob like assassinate does even thought you can only use that once per mud day.

It also feels like some people tried to use the logic that if I am proposing to upgrade a warriors tank skills, something that has been said that we as warriors are all we are good for, then downgrade defensive spells, to try and bully me out of this idea.

I'm sorry it won't work. Each class has their job. Well when other classes get upgraded defensive skills that is just a huge slap in the face of warriors.

When Paladin's got guard, did they downgrade defensive spells? No...

So what is the difference?

The difference is that people didn't mind an already fine class getting somthing else that they can use to possibly twink the class.
Another class was added to the rescue job. Well hell paladin's were already good to go. Though in an xp group or zone group you still needed someone that could rescue. Now with Guard you don't necessarily need to fill the slot of a warrior now do ya? Nope.

I doubt my argument or debate here will ever cause something to be added to the warriors toolbox persay, but at least I am willing to stand up for it and not back down, regardless of the logic used to try and dispute it.


L8r,


L8r,
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Postby Gura » Sun Jul 03, 2005 2:01 pm

how about fixing the system for skill checks...?
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Postby Sarell » Mon Jul 04, 2005 6:01 am

Okay, giving warriors extra reflexive defense without lowering defensive magic would unbalance some things because of this...

In a group, this is what happens. Tanks, stand in the way of mobs, using defensive magicians and clerics to keep them alive while damage (hitters and spellcasters) kill the offending mobs.

If you up tanking skills with no other change. This means tanks will live longer, as they will need less support from defensive casters. The defensive casters will be able to spread their spells out longer, probably using the extra time to cast more debuffs on mobs. The damage classes, especially hitters who don't need to mem between large spurts of damage, will have more time to output damage onto the mob before the tank and the defensive casters can't hold up the wall anymore.

So in a fight that can currently be done, by outputting enough damage to kill the mob. The damage would still take the same ammount of time, however the mob would be more debuffed due to the extra time defense mages have on their hands, or have less chance of hurting the warrior and those standing behind it. Possibly making it boring for the warrior and rest of the group as the fight is now too easy.

However if you downgraded the strength or duration of defensive magics, this would compensate somewhat, putting a little more ownership of the tanking on the warriors rather than the defensive casters. This would also help reduce the ability on smaller fights to totally forgo a tank and use a cleric/rogue because defensive magic is the primary card in stopping mobs from killing you.
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Idea

Postby Waelos » Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:11 am

Hi!

Perhaps there is a compromise. . . perhaps the most powerful defensive spells should not be able to be cast on warrior types? Perhaps certain defensive spells shouldn't stack any more? That way, you'll have to find the best combination of defensive spells for the class and situation and cast accordingly.

Defensive spells may be limited to squishy casters only? That would keep the purpose of defensive spells but also allow the warrior to function with less spells (which is good all around). I would say put the same limitations on all warrior subclasses (and rogues/bards?) as far as spells go. That way, folks who tank (even if it isn't very often) don't get an unfair advantage over warirors with spells.

Warrior skills should have less, or no lag. Especially rescue!

Warriors who are wielding 2h should be able to parry better. perhaps MAX the parry like with song of defense. Losing shieldblock shouldn't cripple a warrior the way it does now.

Just some ideas!

Lost
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Postby Birile » Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:28 pm

Just here to second everything Kiryan and Sarell said in their last couple of posts. They've said it all quite well so there's nothing else to add, really.
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Postby Nokar » Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:42 pm

Sarell wrote:Okay, giving warriors extra reflexive defense without lowering defensive magic would unbalance some things because of this...

In a group, this is what happens. Tanks, stand in the way of mobs, using defensive magicians and clerics to keep them alive while damage (hitters and spellcasters) kill the offending mobs.

If you up tanking skills with no other change. This means tanks will live longer, as they will need less support from defensive casters. The defensive casters will be able to spread their spells out longer, probably using the extra time to cast more debuffs on mobs. The damage classes, especially hitters who don't need to mem between large spurts of damage, will have more time to output damage onto the mob before the tank and the defensive casters can't hold up the wall anymore.


How are they not able to hold up the wall anymore, when in most cases they can mem out? Isn't vit and heal in a different circle? Isn't stone, haste, and scale, and blur in a different circles?
I don't understand you logic in this.
I can understand why you would say that the tanks would live longer. But thats what they are there for. They keey people from hitting the casters and other cupport classes. Why wouldn't a lvl player be able to withstand more than say a lvl 40 player? It is due to skills, and skills giving them a better chance to riposte, shieldblock, defense, etc. All are reflexive skills.
Also ac has a place in this as well. as it stands now I have a -132 ac without spells. Which means I don't get hit as often already. I rarely ask for bark unless it is a considerably high mob. I might even use an armor potion that has bless in it as well. I mainly ask for stone skin to lessen the amount of damage I take, same with scale. So how would adding a reflexive skill that doesn't have a 100% chance to work on every swing a mob takes at me, constitute a downgrade in defensive magic. Thats asinine(sp). The reflexive skill is to be able to contribute a LITTLE more damage and stop a few hits from hitting us.

So in a fight that can currently be done, by outputting enough damage to kill the mob. The damage would still take the same ammount of time, however the mob would be more debuffed due to the extra time defense mages have on their hands, or have less chance of hurting the warrior and those standing behind it. Possibly making it boring for the warrior and rest of the group as the fight is now too easy.


How would the mob be debuffed more? There's only so much you can do anyways. They only thing that would happen is it would allow more damage to be dealt between runs if you had to make more that one run at a mob.

However if you downgraded the strength or duration of defensive magics, this would compensate somewhat, putting a little more ownership of the tanking on the warriors rather than the defensive casters. This would also help reduce the ability on smaller fights to totally forgo a tank and use a cleric/rogue because defensive magic is the primary card in stopping mobs from killing you.


I don't fully understand what you are saying 'putting a little more ownership of the tanking on warriors rather than the defensive casters.' The job of tanking is solely the job of the tank. We not only have to tank we have to rescue your arses, headbutt, bash, disarm, etc. How do we not have ownership over that already. The only thing the defensive casters do is keep the meatshield alive a little longer. You treat us as disposable lighters. If one dies there's another to take our place and the group moves on. If a cleric dies, or a enchanter you have to wait longer to move on.
By downgrading the defensive magice you are going to put actually more work on them because they have to have the time to remem or repray the defensive magic to keep the tank buffed. Doesn't make any sense other that one point and that is trying to gain allies on the caster side because if they downgraded their spells they have to do more work than they already do. I've played a enchanter and a shaman. The enchanter already has enough to do without putting more on them. Time Stop was a blessing in spellups. Yes takes less time to buff your tanks but you still have to mem back the spells.


Again just adding a couple of reflexive skills to warriors wouldn't brake anything. All we want to do is contribute more the the group than just...
Nokar go east and engage
bash
bash
stand
rescue caster#1
bash
bash
bash
bash


now maybe in the middle of all that you have a few shieldblocks and a few ripostes. Thats it. or sometimes this happens

Nokar go east and engage.. remember it is !bash
shieldpunch
headbutt
shieldpunch
mob switches
rescue caster#1
caster#1 flees
rescue player2
caster#1 comes back in mob switches
rescue caster#1
caster #1 flees

trying to keep track of everyone fleeing because they get hit once and flee. Even if you had a triggerset it would be useless in a situation like that. I tried a auto-rescue set one time and I deleted it after my first fight.
I could type faster and it is less spammy and if I wanted I could set a macros F4 rescue player1 F5 rescue player2 and so on. I still type it out and if I am also the basher I have to attempt a rescue then bash then rescue again while the mob is down then hope the lag isn't to long after the mobs stands up so the process doesn't repeat itself over and over.

Warrior aren't really boring. We just arn't able to contribute hardly any damage at all... I know I know its not our job but if tanking is our specialty then we should be able to manipulate a mob to be able to do a special maneuver.

With all that being said I'm done rambling on.

L8r,
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Postby Sarell » Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:47 am

Okay, a practical example of holding up the wall follows... You send your group at scorps king, you try to damage as fast as possible bacuase your clerics/chanters/etc can only keep your tanks alive against all those insects so long. You try sending the group with no hitters, vokers or other damage and see how long you can keep it alive, it is limited. Maybe you could stay alive forever against a small group or a single mob, but not in a zone.

You stated that my logic would put more work onto the casters due to downgrading defensive magics. It would not in groups, as it would be balanced by your increased tanking skills. Every upgrade and downgrade needs a counter balance if you don't want to change difficulty.

What do I mean by ownership of tanking? I mean at the moment, we could use 300 pounds of sausage with the right spells to tank if we wanted to. If I let my scales and blur down on a tank when I'm chanting, they are dead. If they choose to remove their shield and armor, it doesnt matter so much. I did seelie near naked, 2 hander weapon, with Ladak twice, it wasn't a problem, no one noticed the difference until I mentioned that the faeries wern't offput by my genitals at all until the end of the zone.

The question about 'how the mob would be debuffed more' is answered very concisely in the quote you are referring to in your question.
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Postby Nokar » Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:03 pm

What do I mean by ownership of tanking? I mean at the moment, we could use 300 pounds of sausage with the right spells to tank if we wanted to. If I let my scales and blur down on a tank when I'm chanting, they are dead. If they choose to remove their shield and armor, it doesnt matter so much. I did seelie near naked, 2 hander weapon, with Ladak twice, it wasn't a problem, no one noticed the difference until I mentioned that the faeries wern't offput by my genitals at all until the end of the zone.


I strongly disagree here.
You are saying if you were a warrior and the Main Tank and you took your armor off it wouldn't matter as long as you had scales or defensive magic?
You are wrong.
There is an ac factor there.

You stated that my logic would put more work onto the casters due to downgrading defensive magics. It would not in groups, as it would be balanced by your increased tanking skills. Every upgrade and downgrade needs a counter balance if you don't want to change difficulty.


Then tell me what got downgraded for assassinate, garrote, GUARD, etc.
What was downgraded especially for 'GUARD'?
Nothing
You logic imho is out there.
How would it not put more work on the casters. It is a fuggin reflexive skill! It doesn't work all the fuggin time! and adding one or two reflexive skills that even at master level only saves you from getting hit a few times per fight and adds maybe a few more hits to the battle, doesn't mean you have to downgrade anything.

and you couldn't use 300 lbs of sausage to tank anything. Since we as tanks have to bash, headbutt, shieldpunch, rescue, etc.

I would have had to see a MT in a zone be nearly naked and survive the whole zone to believe it. Also, what 2h weapon were you using? That also has a part in it to. If you were using one that heals yourself then it was pointless to use that as an example. What reace were you? If you played a troll it would have been pointless to say that to due to troll regen.
There are many factors in this that aren't being said.

And again about the debuffing.. You can only debuff a mob so much. Not everything stacks on one another. Rays dont stack on each other. Once it wears off you have to re-ray. Perma blind will stack with a ray or vice versa.. Please get more specific here. You can only debuff a mob so much. THere are only so many debuffing spells out there.

And your 'practical example' sucks.
Of course your not going to send in just tanks and healers for scorps king. So that wouldn't even be a viable example. You are comparing apples to oranges. And trying to blow something way out of proportion that really doesn't need to be.

And you could keep a tank alive for a whole zone if you have good people in your group that know how to play and what to do.
Yes I have died many a times. But that is to be expected when your a tank. Your argument is weak. Your only defense seems to be 'well the tank would live longer so downgrade all defensive magics'
BAH! if you think I am missing your point please try explaining it a different way. Because the whole downgrade ot defensive casters is just plain stupid and way to the extreme.

L8r,
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Postby Raiwen » Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:43 pm

Nokar wrote:I strongly disagree here.
You are saying if you were a warrior and the Main Tank and you took your armor off it wouldn't matter as long as you had scales or defensive magic?
You are wrong.
There is an ac factor there.

I'll prove it right now.

Ogre Tank.

There. I just proved, that a PC with horrible AC, low agi, and no heals (almost negative healing - ogres almost lose hps if they stand in one place too long), can tank effectively in a zone with the proper spells.

Nuggog has tanked, imix, jot gatehouse, ttf, musp invasion, and various others that I can't recall this early in the morning.

So, yes.. a 960 pound piece of sausage CAN tank with the proper spells.
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Postby Ambar » Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:48 pm

960 pound Ogre?

SMALL guy!
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Postby Pril » Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:55 pm

Nokar: Just fyi: Sarell's warrior is a barbarian warrior. And to my knowledge there's no 2hander that procs heal that's wieldable by a warrior. So you have a barbarian warrior with a 2hander.

And to try to explain the point to you I've tanked 2-3 mob fights as my invoker with full spells. Group was SOL on rescues but it's doable just need goot chanter/illusionist/cleric to keep you spelled and healed.

Pril
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Postby Raiwen » Wed Jul 06, 2005 3:00 pm

Ambar wrote:960 pound Ogre?

SMALL guy!

hey, I don't have all that cushion that you females have!
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Postby kiryan » Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:46 pm

AC is a significant factor and makes the difference between life and death AFTER DEFENSIVE SPELLS FALL. Tanking today is being able to survive those 2-3 rounds between defensive spells falling and being refreshed. In today's game its undisputable that DEFENSIVE SPELLS do the lions share of tanking and many tanks wish they carried more of the load.

I like waelos' idea of making the strongest defensive spells say like dscale not work on tanks and upgrading their tanking skills instead so that the absolute level of tanking ability doesn't change drastically. This would put more emphasis on the tanks and their innate abilities for tanking rather than on the defensive casters. It would also help to eliminate the scale fades warrior dies phenomenon.
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Postby Sarell » Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:19 am

Nokar wrote:Your argument is weak. Your only defense seems to be 'well the tank would live longer so downgrade all defensive magics'


I'd actually suggest that my argument...

If you upgrade tank/player abilities, without downgrading any other player abilities, that the game will get easier for players.

Is in fact fairly infallable.

I've gone into it, in fairly thought out length, hoping to help your thread and suggestion to upgrade warrior's skills out. I suggest you go back and read both your and my posts, see exactly what requests of yours I was responding to and think about it for a few hours. I'm not lying about tanking seelie next to nekkid twice with Ladak, there would not be any point to that, as the very core of this thread, is that warriors are near skill-less and need some depth to tanking ability. I do suggest upgrading tanking abilities on all fighter classes - not to the point where warriors can solo. With the appropriate balanced downgrade on defensive magic, in order to encourage more small grouping and ownership of tanking on good playing skilled warriors, and less tanking done by rogues and casters.
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Postby kiryan » Thu Jul 07, 2005 5:59 pm

and i had the same question that sarell has... did you actually read and understand his posts because your responses don't indicate you understood what he was saying at all.
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Postby Nokar » Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:08 am

Kiryan and Sarell,

I will concede that I did not see the point of Sarells' post as a helping factor. I saw it as a deterant(sp). I am just kinda miffed about paladins getting guard as well as rescue. I went to a small place the other day and did some rescue practice with a paladin and their guard is blasphemus to a warrior. Not only can they rescue but they can get SEVERAL rescue attempts per round that are automatic. WITH NO LAG! and when I seen someone say well yeah upgrade tanks but downgrade spells, and nothing for downgraded for Guard I took the defensive on it.

I love playing warriors. Their my favorite class. Even if they dont get near as many invites as they used to.

After some thought I understand fully now what you are saying. Although I don't fully agree with it entirely. And yes if they did upgrade tanking skills and abilities I do believe that scale shouldn't be able to be used on a tank.

I wish I had time to say more on this but I have other matters that I must attend to.

L8r,
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Postby Vigis » Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:52 am

I've pretty much given up on this thread. I can see and understand Kiryan's and Sarell's opinions, and I actually agree with a lot of what they put out there.

Nokar wants the class to go back to what it once was (and I can't blame him for that) but when the 2k elementals were eliminated so was the old school warrior.

I know the class can't go back to what it was, but there has to be soemthing that can be done to make us more than intelligent elementals. Sure, we can rescue faster, we can bash better (although old school warriors used to do that), we can headbutt (woo hoo), and we can shieldpunch (yeah that comes in useful. . .when the illus can't get nightmare to land?), oh yeah, and we can die really really really well (mainly because most warriors expect it, thus don't bitch about it). I for one am very proud of my corpse piles. For every one of my corpses, it means there is about 5 other people that lived.

What is bothering me about this thread is the fact that I have seen:
Upgrade Bard
Upgrade Elementalist
Upgrade Invoker
Upgrade Enchanter
Upgrade Shaman
Upgrade Ranger (too many to count)
Upgrade Squids
Upgrade Ogres

And I am sure I'm missing a few. I'm too lazy to search the BBS.

The point is that this is the FIRST time I have ever seen anybody actually suggest that warriors could use someting (at least since Soj2, I think I remember one from back then) and everybody says the class is fine. I don't want anything serious, I don't want anything unbalancing. I'd love to see warrior skills get upgraded and defensive spells downgraded, but there were comments in there about "not enough for them to solo."

God forbid that somebody who has trained and been in battles all their lives win a 1 on 1 fight. Depending on their skills, a warrior (IMO) should be able to take out any mob near his/her level.

Hell, I'd even be willing to keep things the way they are (warriors dependent upon other classes) for a chance to live. As it is, I'm as helpless as a kitten in a well when I'm low on hps. Sure, I know I am going to die, but I'm a warrior so I better not flee and let the casters take it in the A$$.

Spanky gear would be nice. Hell, make Khanjari's warriorable. . .nevermind that would be unbalancing. How about just giving them something that procs heal. . .oops can't do that, we already have Avengers. Allow them mounted combat? Oops that might make them better meatshields...

Ooooh here's an idea that might help, give us the chance to KO a mob again. (I still don't know why that was changed). Or give us a chance to ignore our wounds for a little while. Or give us a chance to actually hurt the mob when we are about to die (if somebody is killing me, I'm damned sure going to hit them hard). Or give us a chance to come back from incapacitated.

Most of you know me, and you also know that I only have 1 level 50 character. It is the same class and name as I rolled up 10 years ago. I love being a warrior, it is all that Vigis was meant to be. However, with recent changes, I see his role slowly going downhill and have been wondering if he shouldn't stake out a place at 1 west as a retirement home a few years from now. (Subscribing to the slippery slope theory).

I apologize that this post was so long (I now need to check the boards again to see what everybody else posted :) ) But sooner or later, warriors are going to need something to keep them a part of the game.
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Birile
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Postby Birile » Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:33 pm

If you've never read a discussion about upgrading warriors then you never read anything authored by Thanuk. I don't know if there are any threads specifically titled Upgrade Warriors or Give Warriors X or whatever, but I know any discussion on the changes to melee dealt mainly with changing warriors for the better. In fact, I think the ever-upcoming changes to melee were first discussed because of a call for making warriors less reliant on mage spellups and more self-sufficient. I wasn't around for Soj2 so I know these discussions were much more recent than that.

IDK why knocking something unconscious was taken out, though. One of my favorite things was keeping Thanuk alive with my song of healing after he KO'd himself in a !magic room and the mob kept attacking him. :lol:

Honestly, what Sarell, Kiryan and (to a lesser extent) I have been saying in this thread is an advocation for upgrading warriors (ie. making them more self-sufficient) but for some reason a couple of the more vocal warriors don't seem to understand that. There's nothing we can do to change how you read our words or take offense to what is said, though. That's unfortunate. *shrug*
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Postby Yasden » Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:18 pm

I've been a big proponent of fixing warriors even before Soj3, Birile. Thanuk's choice profanity and smart-assedness tended to get more of the spotlight, but I actually submitted a multi-page document for warrior ideas, suggestions, and problems to the staff probably close to 4 years ago now.

I've been patient. I just get irritated slightly when a lot of the other classes get bent out of shape over one tiny little skill or spell they want, when warriors need to be fixed in many ways.

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Postby Nokar » Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:49 pm

I did say I understood what they said. Also, yes I am more vocal because I have watched and watched other classes get major fixes while warriors got the shaft.

Then upgrade warrior defensive skills and not let us get dragonscale.
I'd still like to be able to have the occasional stone then.

Tweak the paladin skill 'GUARD' . They are the new and improved tanks now and overtook warriors by a landslide.
Next time I get the chance I'll make a log of a warrior and paladin doing rescue practice.

If us warriors are still 'vital' as it seems then why is it other classes get the needed upgrades or skill fixes when we get stuck with the same ol same ol because a few people say warriors dont need nothing because they have so much already?

When I first read the if you upgrade warriors downgrade defensive magic. I took it as an attack and I went on the defensive. I do understand what they are saying. like I said before I don't agree totaly with it but I feel that there is something that can be done about it.


How about this.

For warriors ac has more of a factor.
If we are 2 handing then have parry work more as well as riposte.
If we are weapon and shield fighting have shield block do more than what it does even at master level.

Also give us something that does a little more damage and is useful.
Add a couple more reflexive skills that allow is to defend better as well as strike back at the enemy.

A mobs riposte is friggin bad! why cant a players riposte be the same.

I have already heard the argument in acheron damn his headbutt did over 150 dmg wow thats too powerful downgrade that skill or kick doing over 70 dmg... yada yada yada.

Something some of the people dont realize is just how many hit points a mob has. They might be seeing it as beign comparable to what the normal player has. NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!

Here are some other ideas for new skills for a warrior for level 36-40 and above:

Submission or Submit:
Forces a mob into submission or into a submission hold that if viscious is togged on leave them at morted if not kills them. and can only work on barb size(mebbe a little bigger) and smaller. based on strength. COMMAND


Vital strike:
A more complex riposte. It would parry an attack or deflect it with the shield and open up a vital area to strike on the mob. Even if the strike doesn't hit the enemy's strike is still deflected. based on strength and agility. REFLEXIVE


Sweep:
The warrior spins and takes the mobs feet out from underneath him while on the revolution swings a sword at a vital area. stops a hit and does a little damage. If fails or mob jumps to dodge it(kinda like dragon tail sweep) then you end up on your back for 1 round. based on strength and agility and dexterity. COMMAND

Shield specialization:
Give the warrior a higher chance for shieldblock to work. REFLEXIVE

2Hd specialization:
Gives the warrior a even higher chance for parry and riposte to work. REFLEXIVE

on the last two give them a chance to choose at around level 31-36 then at level 50 they can pick up the other.
You also have to figure in time it will take practicing the skill till they reach master level.

I don't speak for every warrior but I seldom, during XP groups or even zoning, use dual wield.
We can't master it.
Does any warrior regularly use dual wield?
If not put in something in it's place.
Yes some warriors can dual wield but warriors are tanks on here.

more skills:
Trap:
Have it work like disarm a called command. The warrior has a chance at trapping the mobs weapon or the mob itself and for 1-3 rounds everything anyone throws hits, melee wise. based on strength and agility. COMMAND

Evade:
The ability to evade an attack entirely and end up behind the enemy thus opening up a HIGH chance for a critical hit or vital strike or STUNNING blow. Reflexive

if there are any other ideas out there please share them.

I don't think giving us spank eq will cure the need to fix warriors.


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