Guard (again)

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Birile
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Guard (again)

Postby Birile » Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:26 pm

Guard is a really really useful skill for paladins but it's caused a lot of the anti-paladins around to be left out in the cold. Too, a lot of people think it's a little overpowered. So here's a thought that would downgrade it a little and maybe get rid of the anti-paladin envy that persists!

1) Paladins should only be able to guard like-aligned PC's, ie. good-aligned characters.

2) Give guard to Anti-Paladins and give them the same restriction--only able to guard like-aligned PC's, ie. evil-aligned characters.

3) Neutrals would either a) not be Guard-able, or b) be Guard-able by both Paladins and Anti-Paladins alike. I don't really care which (and yes, both Birile and Sunlireal are Neutral).

Thoughts?
Thilindel
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Postby Thilindel » Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:36 am

it'd almost be worth having paladin vs. anti-paladin in this thread :P DK is level related :( Boo hiss! Avenger procs full regardless. There's envy in that issue too! Let alone how difficult dk is to get vs. avenger

Guard is supa nice, but in big zones, guard can get paladin killed really quickly as well.

I'd just love seeing antipaladin getting vamp touch too *whistle* I agree birile, guard is hella awesome. Since introduced, I've yet to hear remotely anybody saying AP's are better than paladins - but who paladin vs. who anti gives clear indication which is more popular.

Don't know about the align restriction tho. If a 'knight' is being aided in his quest, he'd surely defend one of his advocates, regardless of alignment. It's a knight's duty to protect. Both pal and anti have honor by their helpfiles.
kiryan
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Postby kiryan » Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:35 am

avenger proc is based on your 2h skill or your prestige not sure which, but either way its highly "level" dependent.

if you want to do something for avengers do something for them, dont nerf a skill from another class in order to equate the two classes.

i still vote for the 1x per week 2500hp life tap ;) (paladins get a 1k-1.2k layhand 1x per day)
Pril
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Postby Pril » Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:01 pm

kiryan wrote:(paladins get a 1k-1.2k layhand 1x per day)


Once a paladin is high enough level his lay hands heals full hps no matter how many there are. So the 1-1.2k is just a rough estimate assuming he does lay hands on himself or a warrior
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Postby kiryan » Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:19 pm

yea i know im saying that it heals 1-1.2k because thats how many hps a good paladin tank will have.

And as far as using it to heal a warrior or something, if i recall correctly you have to disengage to layhand someone other than self. its just not practical to consider using it on anyone othe than self.

letting antis lifetap for 2500 once per week would make them a 3.5k tank 1x per week which would be a new "niche" as compared to say a contant 1800 hp tank with fire embody, or a 1200 hp tank with a layhand... hell, make it once every 2 weeks. It wouldn't be often enough to replace warriors as the tank standard, but it would be often enough that you could use it once per big zone.... lose the rampager, you could use an anti for the 2nd try.
Yasden
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Postby Yasden » Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:26 pm

Paladins and anti-paladins are lawful alignments. This doesn't mean they completely ignore everyone else. In fact, lawful alignments make the most exceptions to the rule as long as it's within the spectrum of the "law", wherever or whatever that may be. A paladin would easily rescue a known criminal if the criminal were innocent at that particular moment and was merely being harangued by villagers. Anti-paladins follow the same code of ethics, they're just a bit more selfish in terms of personal sacrifices.

The guard code itself, while a great concept, was poorly implemented. Period. It has taken the one last useful skill that the three primary tanking classes have and upgraded it to only one of those three classes. Of course, warriors will always have the upper edge, hp-wise, but the anti-paladin has been further downgraded as a result.

A basic rehashing of points I've made in the past:

Paladin layhands >>>>> anti-paladin lifetap. Full health recovery on anyone vs. enemy-draining proc for about 400 hps. Either layhands needs to be downgraded (my choice), or lifetap's availability should come more often, either 2x a day with the current amount of hps (400ish), or 4x a day with half the amount (200).

Avenger versus Deathknell. I mean seriously...why does that sword have the healing ability OUTSIDE of combat? That's pretty much artifact status, I don't care how low the rate is. Deathknell's heal procs only do about 90, they're completely random, and only like to double/triple proc when you're already at full health. My suggestions: Remove the ability to heal OUTSIDE combat, perhaps bump the heal rate DURING combat to match Deathknell's. However, because Deathknell is a much MUCH harder quest to do (which is my #1 basis of this gripe about Avenger), I personally feel the heal procs should add on hps to your *current*, NOT BASE hps if it goes over full health. The proc is so sparse, at 90 hps, it would bleed off fast enough in combat just like Avernus' does, even though Avernus' lifedrain does 300-400. I really don't think you'd get much more than 200 hps at a time that way. In fact, you could put a cap on it to do no more than 300 hps over your current base. That's just an idea, and it would completely fit into the whole theme. I'd even be willing to go as far as to say it would be a suitable compensation for guard....but not every anti-paladin has/uses one.

I'm still not really sure how to address the guard situation itself, considering I don't play a paladin and I can't see just how much more effective guard is with/without a good rescue script. However, I do think that the anti's deficiency, or lack of the skill in general, should be addressed *somehow*.

In summary, anti-paladins have begun the slow, arduous descent towards mediocrity, to sit in inns with rangers collecting dust, unwanted except for a select few zones. However, anti-paladins don't have any class-defining skills like archery to make them wanted. So please, support your local Order of the Deathknell. :P

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Last edited by Yasden on Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Dranix/Straxin » Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:25 pm

The fact that Anti-Paladins have only harm type spells, is also stupid...just cause they're evil doesn't mean they aren't HOLY knights. They might not go around healing the sick and infirm, but I'd think they'd have some kind of self preservation and not only be able to heal their horse.

Hell a paladin has Guard, cure spells, heal, and avenger proc out of battle, but antis get cause light ftw!
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Postby Dalar » Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:52 pm

Now, APs are only defined by how often deathkneel works. Why is this class being defined by equipment? Oh wait, rogues (efhrs) and rangers (ok i'm kidding here). Why is this happening?

BECAUSE CASTERS ARE TOO POWERFUL Downgrade casters, implement focus items (+healing/dmg stuff). reduce the effectiveness of all weapon procs and make dice damage mean something.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:58 pm

Guard created its own subset of rescuing/tanking and I think that is good. Its very very powerful however, I'm not sure I would say its broken.

Personally, I'd like to see warriors get a rescue all skill that would be able to rescue a person from more than one target or perhaps rescue multiple people from a skill based # of targets and use guard as a justification.

Then give anti's an ability that strongly encourages mobs not to switch off the anti based on skill.

-----

on paladins vs antis

I don't see any problem with paladins being mounted tanks that focus more on healing and antis being mounted tanks that focus more on damage regardless of this holy knight aligned evil and good. I think avenger and deathknell reflect that end regardless of whether one quest is easier than the other and I think thats fine. I also think that its fine for avenger to be as powerful as deathknell, because it is class specific and therefore can be considered a part of the class's balance.

A lot of this complaining stems from paladin's skills being more useful than Anti skills in the current game dynamic. This is not cause to rethink the entire class, but is one to consider an upgrade to their specific skills or equipment.

Focus paladins on healing, focus antis on damage. Don't remake the class into evil paladins just cuz paladins are more useful, just give antis an upgrade to bring them closer to par.
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Postby Dalar » Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:19 pm

Or, just copy all of Duris' specializations!
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Thilindel » Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:27 pm

I'm guilty of suggesting that last month! Yum!!

Also, AP's definitely should get vampiric touch for 8th circle..maybe even 6th. Pal's get a sword that's easy to get and heals outside of combat. Pretty even to me *shrug* I've never seen where pain touch or spectral hand was worth casting really. In scardale, mob's casting it on me is good for a laugh :P I'd really like it if 10th circle was animate skeleton. - I only think that due to my PC games. So don't jump my ass if I'm wrong. It's my understanding that an AP is relatively similar to a death knight, but just is still living and doesn't toss fireballs =D

But, if AP's are gonna be defined for damage vs. paladin's healing, I'd like to see them get a better 10th circle offensive. Something like sunfire. Full area damage, not like hound. Trouble is, since AP's are tanks, wearing full damage eq isn't all too good of an idea. For rogues, sure, just avoid spells if you have a tank. It's damned hard to get damage + HPs unless you got a box of chocolates!

**animate skeleton suggested cuz a) their hps are horrible, b) AP's have no specialize necromancy for higher hp pets, c) no pres so skelly would be very short term. Just some RP and fun
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Postby kiryan » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:24 pm

spell damage is the wrong way to go unless its a pre-cast type spell.

up their damage another reflexive way or with a lagless skill.

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