the unholy timesink that is tiamat...

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Gruy
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the unholy timesink that is tiamat...

Postby Gruy » Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:01 pm

i propose a rentable item that can perhaps be roomloaded when the upper grid is cleared something like a key as teba suggested. and perhaps a door near the entrance of the zone. a one way door that poofs the key on use but it is a one way door that takes you to the top of the spiral tunnel and clears the upper grid.

This would allow some of the leaders and the players a break if needed or wanted to do tia over more than one day. which would allow for ress's so that your not going at dragons with a half asleep group of 30. and for that it would allow those who dont have 15+ hours to sit in a chair to do one zone.

i hope to get some staff and player feedback or other idea's on how to perhaps bring tiamat down to a regularly doable zone over a couple days or something.

shrugs lets hear it
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Postby Disoputlip » Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:07 pm

I heard it suggested by Kiryan also, and think it is a very good idea.

What annoyes me is that although I have plenty of time then I will never be able to go to Tiamat.

The reason is that for europeans it starts around 8-9pm and ends around 3pm the next day. I would be able to wake 5am to do the zone as people from asia are doing, but I can't stay awake til 3pm.

The rich are getting richer. Introducing a key would spread Tia items to more people. (including europeans).
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Postby Gruy » Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:10 pm

distotulip... i cannot feel for you.. im sorry but i got one word.. that word is glandriel.. aka tssassop.. been and several tia runs.. and he is euro.. he even sacrafices bedtime with the wife for tiamat..:p
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Postby Corth » Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:01 pm

Did they ever make the BC items rentable? I guess its kind of the same thing, huh? With an older and smaller pbase, these sorts of accomodations are a no-brainer.

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Postby Disoputlip » Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:13 pm

Gruy wrote:distotulip... i cannot feel for you.. im sorry but i got one word.. that word is glandriel.. aka tssassop.. been and several tia runs.. and he is euro.. he even sacrafices bedtime with the wife for tiamat..:p


My argument was weak, I agree. So therefore let me restate my core point: 2x8 hours would make it possible for more players to do Tiamat than 1x16 hours.
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Postby flib » Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:31 pm

I think part of the point with tia is that feeling of feck.. is this ever going to end..!? but then at the end getting a really really nice piece making you feel like it was all worth it.. i'm not sure if I like this idea.. I mean ya it would make tia doable to alot more ppl but wouldnt it kind of take away some of the mystique and the feeling like damn.. I f'in just did tiamat! and dood :P I started zone at 4 pm I went to bed at like 1130 am :P so feh if ya wanna stay up you can :P just tough it out heh.. btw.. need to chill tia procs a bit :P that stuff just gets nuts.. hehe
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Postby Ambar » Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:44 pm

I haven't done tia since her changes, have zoned only on occasion in the last two years ... but

I think Tia is THE END ZONE .. it is an epic of huge proportions. Even with the lower pbase I so diagree with it being shortened .. I'd HATE to see Tia done every weekend :( Maybe trim it down to the 12-13 hrs of old but thats it ..

Let Tia be the glorific zone she deserves to be :(

If you want to go, you will make the sacrifice to go, if you can't make the sacrifice, you dont want to go ..

It isnt like this last run wasnt planed a month in advance so people could plan around the zone ...
Last edited by Ambar on Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Tasan » Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:56 pm

Corth wrote:Did they ever make the BC items rentable?


Yes, they did.
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Postby Gruy » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:23 am

ok so more or less the feel im getting is unless you are single and have no life at all you cannot do tiamat?:p a large part of the pbase refuses to do tiamat simply because the just can sacrifice the time..

i understand that tiamat is an endgame zone and never once did i say shorten it heh i simply suggested making a rentable item that will allow you to clear the upper grid so that tia could be done over 2 days or 2 weekends or whatever.. its the same amount of time to do the zone its just that you dont have to try to keep people awake and alert for 15+ hours..

Ive been on 5 tia runs since shes been back up and well frankly ive had ignore my family almost lose my job cause it ran over into when i was supposed to be at work.. ive made the sacrifices plrenty of times and honestly its just not worth it..

I have 90% of endgame items here besides tiamat items and well if thats all im to look foreward to ill just continue what ive been doing and just not play activly at all hehe i just dont have the time to sink into a 15 hour zone.

Ive already stated that i intend to lead tiamat sometime in the next month and it will be done over 2 days.. we will start friday eveningish clear the upper grid and then during the day saturday we will finish.. im still working on a bid system but its looking good and beneficial for even those who can only make it one day or another..

being as most deaths occour to the dragons grid if the game crashes then i guess oh well we get it next time.. but seriously i believe it would take less time going straight in to dragons with people at their best than to do it after everyone has had to endure 6-8 hours of demons then 8=10 hours of dragons;)

this will be an evil run so id like some feeback from some evils who think they would like to participate in a run performed this way. more details will come when ive gotten a bid system in place that is fair to all those attending.
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Postby Tasan » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:38 am

BC was done very sparingly until the items were made rentable, then it was done nearly every boot. I don't want to see Tiamat turn into the same situation.

I don't support making the zone doable in 2 seperate portions, but I do support bringing down the time to completion to 10-12 hours. I think a slight loss in overall loot from the encounter would hardly be seen when it doesn't take nearly as long.
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Postby torkur » Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:39 am

I went to Tiamat last night for the first time because I work odd hours and can be called in to work. I have 4 level 50 chars capable of going atm. I couldn't sign up to join early because I was at work all day and even then came in a couple hours late and got to do 2nd round bidding. I was able to join because NOONE else was willing to go. I only could due to this being my work weekend. If this is the case for most people, how is it bad to break it up into 2 days to get people to enjoy the zone? A good zone done every couple weeks beats a great zone that sits there and the gods traverse in boredom.




PS: I WAS level 50 before we started.....when we ended, my invoker was 42.15 with 1 res inside zone. I died 41 times. How the F... are people going to farm it every weekend with this pbase and exp loss like that? This will be the first time in 2 years my invoker actually has to go run an exp group.
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Postby Thilindel » Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:49 am

I know tia's the end of the end game, however, who here would be willing to say their spouse, children, friends, etc., would be content while you sit at a keyboard for well over 12 hours. So, should there really be 30 players whose average age is 30 doing this?

Now, if you can say that's to be expected, what kind of PC game would you do that on, then on the same hand argue that you aren't allowed to pause it for the 12+ hours?

What I think would be nice is to allow shorter versions of Tia that would require less people as well - however, the eq won would either cost prestige points or poof, etc. Basically give that EQ if won in a smaller group, a shelf life that could be renewed in some fashion. I don't care if I were offered every item in the zone, I would not neglect family for the time duration Tia requires.

It is just tossing bodies at the final fight, x3, til you win. I'd way rather be willing to do a shorter zone. Odds are, I wouldn't log in if I knew most ppl were away on a ungodly long zone.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:09 am

Most of us have played for ten thousand years and our spouses were there when we were addicted :P (Or were there zoning with us like in my case)

If they don't know by now that you mud/play a game that takes hours of your time ... :)

A LOT of the people that do the high end zones have lives AND families :)

Tiamat WOULD be farmed if she was allowed oo be done over a couple days span

Would personally like to see some immort input on this so we'd know for sure and stop debating :)
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Postby Naled » Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:24 pm

After the pbase is down to like 20 people don't you think the argument that making tia last 8 hours or 2x8 hours is bad because otherwise it will be done every weekend is lacking a tiny bit of perspective?

Or better a dead mud that holds to standards that were valid 10 years ago when we were in college and had all the time, then a living mud? I sometimes think there are a lot of people (that never play) that try to keep this place like it was and fail to see the dire situation this place is in.

It would be great for this place if there were 30 people zoning every weekend. Tia started 2 hours later with like 25 people because we couldn't even get the people for it. And especially the endgame was ridiculous. 2 hours straight on one mob, without time to leave your computer because otherwise you'd have to start again.
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Postby torkur » Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:54 pm

Ambar wrote:Most of us have played for ten thousand years and our spouses were there when we were addicted :P (Or were there zoning with us like in my case)

If they don't know by now that you mud/play a game that takes hours of your time ... :)

A LOT of the people that do the high end zones have lives AND families :)

Tiamat WOULD be farmed if she was allowed oo be done over a couple days span

Would personally like to see some immort input on this so we'd know for sure and stop debating :)


Ok, prove this? I didn't see you in Tiamat Saturday night taking the spot open for 3 hours I filled and your husband muds so he should understand. We did not hit 30 people until Dagos or so. Have other plans for those 16 straight hours and 2 hours of ressing or something?

I love the zone and all, but lucky breaks or taking vacation time from work is just not good for a game to REQUIRE.
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Postby Lilira » Mon Jul 03, 2006 5:33 pm

Or the 24 hours of ressing etc that has to take place after.

I was there for 10, almost 11 hours the next morning singing to help the ressing along.

Oh.. and !bid. *wink*
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Postby Gruy » Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:32 pm

as i said zone changed or not i will lead it over 2 days.. what were deaths on yup to dagos anyone? 15-20? would be nice to get those done at the end of day one everyone go take a rest and what not then come back fresh for another day of dragonslaying.. if it crashes before hand.. well then we lost the upper grid.. oh well in my opinion its better than interfearing with reality and gett family pissed off at me over a piece of colored ansi;)

secondly, ambar.. ive been on toril for close to 9 years and as other have said.. 7-8 years ago sure tia was doable every week or day but hell when there are an average of 300ppl on she could be done every boot.

the same basic 30 ppl are the only ones zoning or playing any how. so when people are losing 10+ levels worth of xp tia will in no way ever be done every couple days or weekend... when we started tia saturday we had 25ish ppl.. there were only 29 ppl on... hmm and that took what like 3 weeks to plan...

allowing what i had suggested to be implemented wouldnt hurt the zone one bit.. and what your missing is this THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME GOES IN AND THE SAME AMOUNT OF PEOPLE DIE!!!!!!!!!! It is just over a span of 2 days rather than one... i mean i know of like 10+ players who have never done tia that want to but cannot afford that kind of time..

None the less im getting responces from evils on doing it my way so we see how it turns out hopefully in a few weeks we got a good run setup.
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Postby kiryan » Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:47 am

couple comments.

1. even if tiamat could be done every weekend... you have to consider the corpse count count.

400 corpses? 600 corpses? Do the math, it takes a lot of time to re-exp... not counting straight fails.

And I sympathize with what Ambar is saying that she doesn't want to see tiamat done every weekend... but I think that she would agree with me that everyone would love to see the present tiamat done every weekend as that would be a sign that the mud is thriving. Not to mention all the people around week in and week out exping for tiamat.

2. on whether to break tia into two smaller zones.

I think that breaking tia into two smaller zones would be really nice. I could see people doing DIS one day and Tia the next day. It truly takes a herculean amount of effort and having a lot of luxury in RL to do a 16 hour straight zone. I could see breaking tia into two smaller zones from a practical standpoint even though it would technically make the zone longer (because of the 1-2-3 hours of organization time before you even step into the zone and the 1-2-3 hours of post zone pressing/ressing).

Also consider, it is next to impossible to recruit people at 2am in the morning if someone falls asleep or RL pops up (like deciding you won't make it to work if you stay any longer). So far we haven't had to abort specifically for this reason, but the day is coming. Yea and we could talk about starting earlier or what not, but 16 hours is just a very long block of time, lots of us probably don't even stay awake much longer than 16 hours a day during NORMAL hours.

Beyond the sleep/recruiting issue, consider the player impact... Try enchantering for 16 straight hours for a 30 man group. Or soul walking and pressing 600 corpses (and lintral walked half of them and aluvon pressed at least half of them)... Consider the exp buffer needed to keep 50 with 30 deaths (720%), 40 deaths (1050%), or kramel's 58 deaths (1392%).... At least you could ress after DIS (which wouldn't help much since you don't die as much at DIS).

I want to see tia stay a glorious zone, and I think breaking it up into smaller zones is key. I'd rather do a longer tia if it was broken up into two 10 or three, 8 hour tia zonelets (present is about 14-18 hours probably). Its only a matter of time before player whining results in incremental downgrades to the zone, pre-empt it by separating it into two zones. I don't want to see the zone made easier, its going to get easier on its own through eq escalation and game changes.

16 hours today is 14 hours next year is 10 hours the year after. We've seen it in lots of zones, BC coming to mind and Sarli even figured out a way to shave 2 hours/200 corpses off this past trip.. a stronger, better exp'd group would've shaved another couple hours off. I don't think we have a feel for how fast tia can be done yet. Regardless, Tia needs to stay up there in terms of total length to give it buffer to resist new changes/twinks/eq.

3. on specifically how to break tia into two shorter zones.

-disconnect DIS and the spiral
-give the end fight of DIS a rentable portal spawner.
-create a new location where the portal spawner can be used to spawn a portal to TIA. I'd almost suggest sneaking through DIS to get to this location, but I'm not sure how well you could do that, you don't want to add time to the TIA portion of the zone.
-have tia's death spawn a quest mob that can unlock tia's treasure with the portal spawner but destroys the spawner.
-adjust the end of the blue dragon fight where the mega demon comes to reflect the changes.

this would break the current 16 hour zone into a 4-5ish hour zone and a 10-12ish hour zone... Not quite ideal, especially when you consider the pre zone organization and the post zone clean up, but it would be better than present.

if you wanted some more parity in the lenghts of the zones, i might suggest making DIS harder (longer and increase the corpse count) and reducing the difficulty of the red consorts fight (92 corpses?) to reduce the length of TIA... that is if it was changed... its unclear whether its been upgraded, "fixed" or we just had a bad time at it.

If you were willing to break up the continuity of the spiral or make it a more flexible , I might suggest keeping the first couple consorts with DIS (also you don't have to adjust blue consort fight) or come up with a system where you can do as many of the consorts as you want with DIS and do the rest with TIA...
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Postby Tasan » Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:30 am

torkur wrote:Ok, prove this? I didn't see you in Tiamat Saturday night taking the spot open for 3 hours I filled and your husband muds so he should understand.


Because of the current trend of not offering anyone who joins late anything in the first round, I can totally understand not wanting to spend 3 hours in the zone, especially at 2am in the morning.

Enjoying the game does not require you to go to Tiamat.

Naled wrote:Or better a dead mud that holds to standards that were valid 10 years ago when we were in college and had all the time, then a living mud? I sometimes think there are a lot of people (that never play) that try to keep this place like it was and fail to see the dire situation this place is in.

It would be great for this place if there were 30 people zoning every weekend. Tia started 2 hours later with like 25 people because we couldn't even get the people for it. And especially the endgame was ridiculous. 2 hours straight on one mob, without time to leave your computer because otherwise you'd have to start again.


Actually with less people playing and the same people continually doing that zone, the eq progression would die horribly and soon you'd have 0 reason to do any zone other than Tiamat.

If you didn't know what Tiamat involved prior to going, shouldn't you have asked? You can pause between Tiamat's resurrections for as long as you want, so 2 hours at keys isn't required.

The main two points are, why break the zone into 2x8 when you could just reduce the total time to 10-12 hours and bring down some of the insanity of the items stats. The other being know this is a special instance and that it shouldn't have to follow the rules of the rest of the zones. Tiamat was generally accepted as a rewarding experience for a dedicated adventure. I still think breaking the zone up reduces some of the effort involved.

Just my 2c.
Last edited by Tasan on Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ambar » Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:31 am

Yes Mike, I do agree to some extent but I'd rather see the time required lessened rather than see her partially done on two separate days. To some things I say playerbase be damned, maintain CERTAIN aspects of the mud as they deserve to be maintained. I'm QUITE sure the capable leaders will continue to build their groups for her to be done on an every now and then planned basis. It was nice seeing that certain necro log his goodie on for her (hugs Gland) .. nice seeing people come out of the woodwork for something so cool ..

Let it be THE DESERVING, those who CAN handle the pressure and the time it takes to do her properly .. let us look to Tia items as O MY GOD THEY WENT TO TIA .. not .. o whee another tia run

Torkur .. i think I mentioned that I personally wont dedicate the time it takes.. and I do have someone in my life who WOULD understand if I wanted to go (hell he has been twice since the changes:P) .. I just dont WANT to sit for that long anymore .. I have gotten into the habit of not being able to sit still or that long anymore. Does that mean I want her GLORY to be lessened? NO! The times I went it were as an Ogre Shaman .. trust me I KNOW deaths and DEATHMEMS .. all I got were the treasure, the combs mirrors and brushes .. btu you know what? I VALUE them cause they were done when it meant something to do Tiamat, and thats what I want again ..

If I REALLY want to go I WILL set aside the time, I WILL plan ... vacation days? I'm sorry I dont even call in late anymore for the mud, nor do I play sick anymore :P Hehe we are talking a weekend .. can't go? O well :)
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Postby torkur » Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:57 am

"Torkur .. i think I mentioned that I personally wont dedicate the time it takes.. and I do have someone in my life who WOULD understand if I wanted to go (hell he has been twice since the changes:P) .. I just dont WANT to sit for that long anymore .. I have gotten into the habit of not being able to sit still or that long anymore....."

Ambar, multiply that by 15 and no more Tiamat with this Pbase. Nice legacy, no?
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:05 am

Ultimately, I want to support this suggestion out of pure concern over the welfare of our mudders.

We all know that the average mudder is not in shape, not athletic, and probably not even very healthy. Sitting for extended periods of time raises the risks of potentially deadly blood clots, especially when play time interferes with sleep schedules thus raising blood pressure.

Save our mudders from raised blood pressure and deadly blood clots.

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Postby Thilindel » Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:25 am

16 hour zones..just think, I drove from Louisville KY to Denver CO in that amount of time last year (thank god I drove my cop car to do it!)
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Postby Sarell » Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:44 am

Anyone who was there for the whole trip was on a lot longer than 16 hours. People who wanted to and did schedule for it couldn't even make it physically. I was focused for 21 hours directing 30 people, I'm VERY fit and healthy, and I still felt physically sick the next day. On the other hand I agree with Ambar, this is the lowest population point of the mud ever, I like to think we can get more players, but atm, we still managed to do tia so suck it up! What's the end game incentive if we make her so that you can lead it your first lead ever ala spob and take a nap halfway? If you can't organise yourself for 1 day, maybe solitaire (or Izan's I suppose being less dramatic) is your game. Doing tia one time in a year is still impressive. If she can be done a lot, the gear is WAY out of line.

I started planning and securing the key people needed for the tia trip about 2 hours after the one before it finished. I don't think splitting it into a 2 day zone is the answer, I for one would be much harder to aquire for two 12 hours days than one 20 hour day which is what it would become taking into account forming up, getting there, getting out.

Whoever leads a zone split over two days / weekends, I wish you luck on the bidding, prepare yourself for the abuse by people you thought were normal, tired = CRANKY. Alternately, reducing the length of the zone, hopefully we could get people who could do the whole zone and not make me feel like utter shit at the end of the zone when one half or the other of the people either complain they didn't get a bid, or complain someone shouldn't of got a bid over them.

If gods reset tia planned over two weekends or two days because of a crash I would still feel very cheated on behalf of everyone that put in the groundwork to learn the zone, invent tactics and preapre enough to do it straight.

I honestly think the answer is to make the zone shorter and fun, but still epic. To make the zone shorter I think we should remove the completely boring repititve stuff from the zone, and lower the rate of equipment that loads to balance it. About 15 top items for their slot / class load, you can lower that signinficantly and will have to anyway if you start having tia done even a fraction more than it is now. Having no god intervention as on that last trip was fantastic. We did have to have the rod loaded at the end which didn't load for some reason or other to get our bodies out.

Heres my idea to fix it.

1. Keep the top grid exactly as it is. It could be done in 2 hours.

2. Remove or make the red dragon consort proc 1/3rd the power. Having your whole group wiped out and starting again to a single proc is boring, and causes a huge pile of corpses for an extra hour of pure boring at the end of the zone.

3. Don't 'fix' the ancient dragons so people can't use my tactic. We made that fight fun, with the excitement of being roared into tia and spanking the group still there! If you want to make it a little harder, have tia only call 3 of the dragons - red white black - have green follow black, and blue follow red.

4. Remove the first and second incarnations of tia. I see no point in doing that boring ass fight 3 times. To make it less boring and harder to smite 1 incarnation:
i) Increase her healing rate, I hear people thinking I'm insane accross the globe, but do it.
ii) Give her lich gaze, including the drain for healing. Gives us something to do with paladins and potions.
iii) Slow down her ability to kill in one hit. Or flatten a group in one proc. I'm talking about less death. Deaths are boring later when yo have to drag and res and sit in DS for 2 months. Due to less people dying, the group damage output will increase, in balance with her increased healing powers.
iv) Make her call an ancient dragons at each of her conditions. Small, Few, Nasty, Phurt, Awful.
v) Load a regular dracolich in her place, with gaze, when she dies like the old tia. Dracolich should be much easier than the actual tia, like a normal dragon/dracolich, a sort of yyahooooo glorious charge for the group to finish the zone instead of another set of runs. Tiamat is such an anticlimax atm.

5. Res / recovery is boring and difficult, but only for a couple of people, it doesn't fit into the group dynamic of tiamat at all, and forces the delay of split and makes people have to stay at keys just so they can consent different folks. SOLUTION: New and improved ROD. Make the rod load in tiamats lair. Give it the following extra abilities. Make it !take. Make it room timestop. Make it pulse an improved version of the res song every single tic. I mean so res recovery takes like 30 seconds. (Oh and leave on in the WD and DK morgue permanently while we are at it)

For general things that could improve the gameplay of tia and other zones significantly.
-Make it so when you die, you stay in the group. This is just bad communication design the way it currently is. Doesn't serve any game play purpose, it's just an utter nuisance. Make the glist stay put while at it.
-Multiple consents. We had 2 necros and a lich organising the dead, having more players doing this shouldn't be a pain.
-Drag all.pcorse. Bring it back in conjunction with the !consent from X message.
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Postby Demuladon » Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:02 pm

A quick search revealed that 21 hours straight is probably not enough to kill off any of the Toril pbase.


50hrs then death
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4137782.stm

86hrs then death
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/10/10/1034061260831.html

10days then death
http://abcasiapacific.com/news/stories/asiapacific_stories_1528105.htm
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Postby Ambar » Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:27 pm

torkur wrote:"Torkur .. i think I mentioned that I personally wont dedicate the time it takes.. and I do have someone in my life who WOULD understand if I wanted to go (hell he has been twice since the changes:P) .. I just dont WANT to sit for that long anymore .. I have gotten into the habit of not being able to sit still or that long anymore....."

Ambar, multiply that by 15 and no more Tiamat with this Pbase. Nice legacy, no?


If I can't dedicate the TIME, then I DON'T deserve to go! Don't ruin it for those who still love the zone but are trying to help tweak good changes

*touch* Pat You are a cornerstone, I can't even think of any person who doesn't like and respect you .. *hug* and *touch* some more
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Postby Naled » Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:11 pm

With Pat's suggestion it would be a 8-10 hour zone. Add the in and out to 12 hours, and it's still epic, but more doable. Sounds good to me. By the way Tia took 20 hours with one of, if not the, best leaders in the game. I don't want to know how long it takes with someone else.
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Postby torkur » Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:28 am

Ambar wrote:
torkur wrote:"Torkur .. i think I mentioned that I personally wont dedicate the time it takes.. and I do have someone in my life who WOULD understand if I wanted to go (hell he has been twice since the changes:P) .. I just dont WANT to sit for that long anymore .. I have gotten into the habit of not being able to sit still or that long anymore....."

Ambar, multiply that by 15 and no more Tiamat with this Pbase. Nice legacy, no?


If I can't dedicate the TIME, then I DON'T deserve to go! Don't ruin it for those who still love the zone but are trying to help tweak good changes

*touch* Pat You are a cornerstone, I can't even think of any person who doesn't like and respect you .. *hug* and *touch* some more


Um, ruining it is splitting it into 2, but keeping the difficulty....Yet you like Sarell's ideas? Please read your posts and edit before hitting submit there to form a cohesive thought. You just contradicted yourself now compared to earlier postings.



I like Sarell's ideas, but it would shorten the zone overall and lower the epic standing compared to what it is now....exactly what people are complaining might happen by splitting it in 2. If that happens, would people complain when it's done 2x per month?

I don't like 16+ hours at a pop, but should it really be 8-10 hours total? The pbase could still be challenged, but get 2 weekends of 8 hours each and keep down how often it is done.

If it's halved you'd have to do something major about amount of gear loading or change how longer zones function. That's nearly the length of a bad Magma run, let alone Jot invasion (barring new changes lowering the time needed to 6 hours). That is a big shift in time for reward compared to the longer zones that have come in.
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Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:31 am

Maybe there should be a minor Tia zone that takes less time and has mildly inferior equipment but takes only 8 hours or so. The original shouldn't be neutered.

If you want the ultimate, you have to pay the ultimate price. - Point Break


If you can't put in the time or aren't physically or mentally able to last, then you don't deserve it.
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:15 am

I don't quite agree with this:

Nurpy Fuzzyfeet wrote:If you can't put in the time or aren't physically or mentally able to last, then you don't deserve it.


-You shouldn't be 'punished' so to speak for having a non-yielding agenda, workday, family life, etc.

*Example*

Saturday evening: "Mom! I thought dad was gonna play ball with us!"

"I'm sorry kids, but your father is . . 'busy' on the computer"

"Aw, but mom, he's just playing a stupid game with a bunch of words, "

"Well, your father's enjoying himself."

"Can I play on the computer for 16 hours straight? I mean, he is setting the example!"
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Postby Ambar » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:42 am

I said I like the idea of Tia being a tad shorter(I personally think 12-13 hrs was fine) , errm where is that contradicting myself :P He said it is difficult (but doable) for ONE long run .. and then said it would be near impossible to maintain group fluency, group cohesion to do her in two runs .. I agree with everything Sarell says :P

*smile*

now leave me alone, find someone else to pick on :) thanks :)


If you can't play with the big dogs ... stay off the porch :)
Last edited by Ambar on Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ambar » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:50 am

Thilindel wrote:-You shouldn't be 'punished' so to speak for having a non-yielding agenda, workday, family life, etc.

*Example*

Saturday evening: "Mom! I thought dad was gonna play ball with us!"
"I'm sorry kids, but your father is . . 'busy' on the computer"
"Aw, but mom, he's just playing a stupid game with a bunch of words, "
"Well, your father's enjoying himself."
"Can I play on the computer for 16 hours straight? I mean, he is setting the example!"


Any kid that challenges a parent was brought up wrong anyway :P Considering not going to a zone as *punishment* is just silly :) I can't go to Hawaii when I want to.. who's fault is it that I don't save up for trips like that? Is it punishment? That is the *I must sue EVERYONE* mentality at it's best :)
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Postby Sarell » Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:55 am

If every last one of my suggestions was implemented I'd still be impressed with anyone that could do it under 12 hours. Absolutely however you would have to lower the gear loading rate, I think it might even be a bit too high as it is, the gear is incredible, people are complaining because they have been to tiamat twice and don't have the best item in the game.

I think it's a really well designed zone because it isn't something that people will be able to follow a strict formula and smite it easily. It will take a very good group to do well. On paper the last group we went in with was probably as powerful as the one before. The one before did top grid in a bit above 2 hours, the last one was about 5. I don't think my suggestions would make it easier, they would make it more fun for everyone, through engagement. They would certainly make tiamat herself harder and you would have to be more alert, just less arduous. Trying to take out some of the timesink parts, the parts that you arn't going forward in due to dumb luck, or the parts where 30 people have to wait for a couple of people to do something.

If we had a solid playerbase of 300, could we do the entire tiamat zone as it stands in 12 hours? Probably. Do we? No. Maybe we are just asking to be given the gear out too easily. So I suggest making the fights more interesting as stated, adversly bringing down the time of the zone, and lowering the load of gear accordingly.

PS: Just thought of something, if you wanted to make the top grid harder and less of a textbook adventure fix the narzugon patrols, they only ever patrolled properly on the first tiamat run.
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Postby Gormal » Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:12 am

I'd like to see Tiamat herself altered to be less of a "throw bodies at her" fight with so many deathprocs and such, and more of a strategy fight. The entire zone should be around 12 hours as well as I see it. 12 hours is a huge time commitment and asking more people to hang out for 20 hours on the MUD excludes the majority from participation.

The fact is that people want Tiamat. On a game that isn't going to wipe its the only zone that everyone can do to upgrade their set. Even if it stays as hard as it is, people will still do it nearly as much as if it was toned down a bit. We might as well open the door to more people and lessen the headache (especially ressing)
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:12 pm

Ambar wrote:Any kid that challenges a parent was brought up wrong anyway :P


Honey! Get the belt! The kid's a free thinker!! -hehe I would believe that parenting with the 'Do as I say, not as I do' would be a worse style *shudder* My friend's dad comes to mind. Smoked, drank, stayed out late, etc. Then beat my friend when he found him smoking in the closet!

It's kinda hard to compare going to Hawaii vs. throwing bodies at an ansi dragon til it dies :P Last I heard, Hawaii is a vacation. Seeing Vigis' cursing for almost 2 hours on ACC from dying over and over gave me the indication he wasn't on a vacation during Tia =D
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Postby torkur » Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:53 pm

The big thing about removing the time and deaths is the gear. While I think it's too long for one sitting now, how will it be in a year? Some people already have 7 tiamat items and can do amazing things.....if it's made into strategy and cunning, how will it be done when every warrior in the group has tia circlet, haste armor, air embody boots, etc? How about all the rogues and rangers? People have to be able to go to feel the progression, but not destroy everything else.


Why I personally like the suggestions, but am worried about them too. While I cursed up a royal storm dying 41 times, it does keep me from going again anytime soon.......split in 2 properly would be doable, but still give me pause to going more than 3-4x a year or so for time commitment and prep work.

My 2 c.
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Postby kiryan » Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:53 pm

Ambar...

While I agree in sentiment with you, but I don't ever remember tia taking 16 hours 6-10 years ago... maybe a bad trip... maybe my foggy memory... tia has gotten more "epic" over time. Does anygame anywhere have an "epic" zone like tia? Epic defined in 16 straight hours and 400-600 corpses?

I feel strongly that tia is perhaps too epic in straight hours at this point. I don't want to see the game challenge diminished, but the straight hours is too hard on the people. I speak from personal experience watching Laurel. It takes her a good 2 days to recover if she stays up all 16 hours. This past trip she took a couple hour nap and it only took her about 12 hours to recover.

I vowed never to lead anything long on sunday again after my 14 hour BC trip. I had 2 people call in sick to work and one person miss a plane flight to italy. You can talk about personal responsibility all you want, but I felt personally responsible.

I feel bad for asking that the zone be broken up so you can do it in two shorter pieces until we really get to know the zone... but that is really the only way I can see it being done more often than present. Its still so new, people are willing to push a little extra, but one of these days soon I think the camel's back is goign to break and people are going to say hey ive been to tia 5 times, i just can't stay up any longer this time. If I lead tiamat, im going to do it over 2 days and if it crashes in between, f**k it.

---

Sarli

yea i agree if gods reset it for a multi day run, i'd be pissed if i were you since you and several others pushed through it. however, there is precedent for diminsing the difficulty after a few test runs. Don't you think its a little too epic at this point? Lets not reduce the difficulty, lets split it up into a longer event over two days. I'm sure that a proper and just split system can be devised.. I'd give 1 point for dis, 2 for tia (assuming tia is 2x as long as dis) and perhaps some small bonus for people who die more than 25 times.

also, I think you would have a much easier time gathering for a 8-10 hour zone than you have gathering for tia at somehwere between 16-18-20. Your pool of players who CAN commit that much time and CAN be awake that long and CAN stand mudding that long is much smaller than those who could do 8-10 hours.

I don't like the idea of reducing the # of rewards in tia, although the power of some of the individual rewards is probably excessive (but fun). As much as tia is an experience, walking away from an 18 hour experience with just that is somewhat disheartening. If anything, I'd like to see greater parity amongst more of the items from tia... I'd prefer to see no changes to the reward structure or the difficulty, I'd just like the zone to be easier on people... If your trick for 5 ancients didn't work... we probably would've failed and if we did succeed it would've been conservatively 18 hours and 800 corpses... conservatively.

---

gormal

yea the throwing bodies thing is lame. its not no skill though thats for sure; it takes lots of group coordination especially from the draggers. On the other hand, throwing bodies at tia is oldschool. Its the way tia has always been, the 8 hour CR I think is what I think I heard someone call it once years ago. I think you are going to be hard pressed to come up with a more skillful fight due to a lack of combat depth.

To have a more skillful fight, your going to have to have people make a choice about what skills to use... warriors... bash, shieldpunch, headbutt, kick? rogues trip, garrote, circle, pick lock, disguise ect? All skills that players have are pretty much not effective on dragons so by design you can't have a skillful fight with a dragon let alone tiamat. better luck in toril 2.0.
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Postby Vigis » Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:13 pm

kiryan wrote:
I vowed never to lead anything long on sunday again after my 14 hour BC trip. I had 2 people call in sick to work and one person miss a plane flight to italy.


I remember that trip. I made it to work the next day but was worthless.

The time for needed for Tia has made me seriously weigh my desire to go against my family obligations etc. I've been on most of the goodie Tia runs but right now I don't have the time for 16-20 hours in one sitting. On the last run in which I participated, I was puking during the Tia runs from an overload on coffee and mountain dew combined with pure exhaustion.

I like people's idea about leading it over 2 days and praying the game stays up. I'd most likely sign up for that run, especially if it was a Friday night/ Saturday morning split. The chance for a crash would make it a nice risk.

I doubt that Tia needs to be broken into 2 seperate zones or that any difficulty needs to be tweaked. Leave it up to the leaders to run the zone the way they want. If you are dead set to get it done in 1 sitting and basically have the rewards guaranteed, you can run it that way. If you think you have a better chance at getting the group and doing it well, run it over 2 days.

Personally, I think Tia and the Ancients are not as hard as they seem. If a group was fresh, I think we would see them fall a lot faster. But, you get to them at the end of the zone when people are dragging ass and likely to miss something.

In conclusion, when somebody decides to run it over 2 days I'll likely be the first person to sign on the dotted line. I love the zone and the group dynamics. I'm even willing to up my xp buffer through the painful grind :)

P.S. Only 58 deaths Kramel? What were you doing, pushing the invoker in ahead of you? :P
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Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:30 pm

Thilindel wrote:I don't quite agree with this:

Nurpy Fuzzyfeet wrote:If you can't put in the time or aren't physically or mentally able to last, then you don't deserve it.


-You shouldn't be 'punished' so to speak for having a non-yielding agenda, workday, family life, etc.

*Example*

Saturday evening: "Mom! I thought dad was gonna play ball with us!"

"I'm sorry kids, but your father is . . 'busy' on the computer"

"Aw, but mom, he's just playing a stupid game with a bunch of words, "

"Well, your father's enjoying himself."

"Can I play on the computer for 16 hours straight? I mean, he is setting the example!"


You aren't being punished. There are many other apects of this game that are quite enjoyable, and don't require 16 hours. If your life is too busy or what not and you can't devote the time, then....don't go.

Tiamat is so to speak, a powergamers zone, if you aren't one then you probably can't go there. Get over it. This crap of the mud getting easier hasn't worked up to this point, and shortening the ultimate zone the mud has to offer will have much more negative effects than positive.
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Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:40 pm

Kiryan wrote:I feel strongly that tia is perhaps too epic in straight hours at this point. I don't want to see the game challenge diminished, but the straight hours is too hard on the people. I speak from personal experience watching Laurel. It takes her a good 2 days to recover if she stays up all 16 hours. This past trip she took a couple hour nap and it only took her about 12 hours to recover.


Two days to recover from 16 hours? 16 hours of sitting on your ass? Maybe it's because I'm younger than most players here, but....I work for 16 hours in the hot ass sun with only a 30 minute lunch break on a daily basis. It doesn't take me 2 days to recover. If sitting is the issue, buy a laptop with a wireless connection, stand up and mud for a while.
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Postby Tasan » Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:00 pm

kiryan wrote:perhaps some small bonus for people who die more than 25 times.


Why reward the people who are dying most? They are the ones causing everyone else to have to wait longer. There's a point where you can say "yeah that many deaths were required", but many many people die for really no reason there.

kiryan wrote:also, I think you would have a much easier time gathering for a 8-10 hour zone than you have gathering for tia at somehwere between 16-18-20. Your pool of players who CAN commit that much time and CAN be awake that long and CAN stand mudding that long is much smaller than those who could do 8-10 hours.


So then Tiamat becomes a weekly thing since you can just swap out people that can do it for ones that can't? 8-10 hours IN zone is never 8-10 hours total. Between gathering(because people never show up on time) and ressing after it's always another 3+ tacked on.

kiryan wrote:I don't like the idea of reducing the # of rewards in tia, although the power of some of the individual rewards is probably excessive (but fun). As much as tia is an experience, walking away from an 18 hour experience with just that is somewhat disheartening. If anything, I'd like to see greater parity amongst more of the items from tia... I'd prefer to see no changes to the reward structure or the difficulty, I'd just like the zone to be easier on people... If your trick for 5 ancients didn't work... we probably would've failed and if we did succeed it would've been conservatively 18 hours and 800 corpses... conservatively.


That's just the thing though, with the entire zone taking no more than 12-14, it wouldn't be the arduous "oh well I just wasted a day of my life and didn't even get a t-shirt". The point is to make the trip worth doing even if you don't get anything. I think most people here don't understand the hidden prestige factor, because a lot of people weren't around for old Tia back when we had 300+ players and going was a matter of knowing the right people, but now everyone could go if they can spare the time. The zone has gone from an epic reward for the best players w/ the best equipment to "hey anyone want to go, we need more bodies to throw".
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Postby Ambar » Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:23 pm

THIS incarnation of her, Mike .. not when we did her as evils (was 12-13 hrs iirc and that was perfect :))
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:08 pm

Nurpy Fuzzyfeet wrote:Two days to recover from 16 hours? 16 hours of sitting on your ass? Maybe it's because I'm younger than most players here, but....I work for 16 hours in the hot ass sun with only a 30 minute lunch break on a daily basis. It doesn't take me 2 days to recover. If sitting is the issue, buy a laptop with a wireless connection, stand up and mud for a while.


You live in Alaska? It almost sounds like you're actually older by far the way that sounds. Next you'll be saying you walked uphill both ways to school :P ..and if you're working 16 hour days, and it's Wednesday, wtf you doing online in the middle of the day? Get yo ass back to work! *cracks the whip*
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:22 pm

Nurpy Fuzzyfeet wrote:You aren't being punished. There are many other apects of this game that are quite enjoyable, and don't require 16 hours. If your life is too busy or what not and you can't devote the time, then....don't go.
Tiamat is so to speak, a powergamers zone, if you aren't one then you probably can't go there. Get over it. This crap of the mud getting easier hasn't worked up to this point, and shortening the ultimate zone the mud has to offer will have much more negative effects than positive.


You're joking right? You're claiming to put in 16 hour days EVERY day..and somehow live in a climate with 16 hours of sunlight per day (actually 16.5 hours) _and_ you don't think there's something wrong with a zone that takes the time it takes to drive from Las Vegas to Chicago?

So basically you're saying 'if you have a life, you can't go' I guess. The poll for people's ages was just that. To point out most of us don't have time to 'sit on our asses' as you say for 16 hours or more.

The first new tia run was around 12 hours if I remember right, and had MUCH (hundreds) less in deaths. They made it harder yet after that iirc.
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Postby Tala_Darkraven » Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:58 pm

Being a new player, with a family life, I cant forsee ever seeing Tia.

I know, without any doubt, my wife will not stand for 12+ plus sitting in front of the computer.

Im not complaining just adding in another voice.

Now 9 years ago, I would have sat for 26+, just not gonna happen now:P
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:08 pm

Thilindel wrote:You're joking right? You're claiming to put in 16 hour days EVERY day..and somehow live in a climate with 16 hours of sunlight per day (actually 16.5 hours) _and_ you don't think there's something wrong with a zone that takes the time it takes to drive from Las Vegas to Chicago?

So basically you're saying 'if you have a life, you can't go' I guess. The poll for people's ages was just that. To point out most of us don't have time to 'sit on our asses' as you say for 16 hours or more.

The first new tia run was around 12 hours if I remember right, and had MUCH (hundreds) less in deaths. They made it harder yet after that iirc.


First run we did after she came back in, was right at about 12 hours I believe. Possibly 12-14, tops. No to terrible a deathcount, but bad.(Think I lost 550% on that run, and I was a grey elf ranger, so I died more than the warriors cept for Vig I think.) Second run we did was easily closer to 16+ I believe, and deaths racked up about the same.
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Postby Lilira » Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:10 pm

Wasn't there a few things that weren't working on that first run??

Just commenting that the 14-17 hours seem to be more the standard pro quo...
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Postby Gruy » Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:12 pm

i see no reason to shorten it i see no reason to reduce the gearload.

when i lead her over 2 days if it works out well then i will do it regularly assuming life and work allow it..

tho hearing people say that you do not deserve to go if you cant do it in one 14+ hour trip is just not right.. and also that if it is broken in to 2 days that the gear would get dristributed to everyone... Why was the zone put in again? if its not for people to do it and get the rewards at the end... then uh what is it there for? people who were lucky enough to do it before to tell ppl who dont have the time... man that zone sucks unless you have a day to dedicate to it.

im getting a pretty good responce to the run im planning so we will see how it goes.. if nothing else game will crash and we can res the 20 corpses made from first grid and move on with our lives till the next chance to try it again.. id rather do that then have so many damn corpses that (despite the AWESOME attempts of the preser and necro) some are missed or end up rotting because you cant keep corpses presed and whatnot when the necro is constantly lifewalking people and the clerics are always dying with everyone else hehe.

with what sarell said i agree on the red consort.. that proc needs to be tuned a bit.. i mean that is one ferocious breath and that is the fight as a troll im fearing most lol.

some suggestions to make the zone shorter would and could work also but still needing 30ppl and cutting the loot in half is going to reduce the lack of desire to go by those who go 4-5 times in a row and never win anything... (galzar you poor bastard! someone get him a valhalla and stable boots for effort)
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:22 pm

Gruy wrote:i see no reason to shorten it i see no reason to reduce the gearload.

when i lead her over 2 days if it works out well then i will do it regularly assuming life and work allow it..

tho hearing people say that you do not deserve to go if you cant do it in one 14+ hour trip is just not right.. and also that if it is broken in to 2 days that the gear would get dristributed to everyone... Why was the zone put in again? if its not for people to do it and get the rewards at the end... then uh what is it there for? people who were lucky enough to do it before to tell ppl who dont have the time... man that zone sucks unless you have a day to dedicate to it.

im getting a pretty good responce to the run im planning so we will see how it goes.. if nothing else game will crash and we can res the 20 corpses made from first grid and move on with our lives till the next chance to try it again.. id rather do that then have so many damn corpses that (despite the AWESOME attempts of the preser and necro) some are missed or end up rotting because you cant keep corpses presed and whatnot when the necro is constantly lifewalking people and the clerics are always dying with everyone else hehe.

with what sarell said i agree on the red consort.. that proc needs to be tuned a bit.. i mean that is one ferocious breath and that is the fight as a troll im fearing most lol.

some suggestions to make the zone shorter would and could work also but still needing 30ppl and cutting the loot in half is going to reduce the lack of desire to go by those who go 4-5 times in a row and never win anything... (galzar you poor bastard! someone get him a valhalla and stable boots for effort)



Galzar is a paladin, he doesn't need either, give him his horse and avenger, he's old, he won't notice the difference.

but anywho, you keep saying you're going to lead tia and what not, you expect to gave a good following? :P Sorry, but I can't see i've ever seen you lead any zone :P I'd follow Pat, or Ryan, and a few others, but I dunno. Who are you? :P

I mean, following someone you don't know for an epic zone like that, I dunno. That's like following Mori into Tia..You just don't do it.
Shevarash OOC: 'what can I say, I'm attracted to crazy chicks and really short dudes'
Gruy
Sojourner
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:01 am

Postby Gruy » Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:22 am

then dont go hehe

i have no clue who you are either lol

didint know to lead zones on toril i needed to introduce myself to you before hand:p

if i get enough ppl it happens if not i just saved 2 days of my life :p

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