quest rares

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Latreg
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quest rares

Postby Latreg » Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:36 pm

are most of the quest rare load mobs going to be removed or changed to non rare? What made me address this is trying to do the fire embody quest. Rare load mobs for quests are just a time sink, not only that but there is no skill involved just dumb luck being the right place, in the right time, in the right boot. Challenges and figuring things out is fine, but what do rare loads have to do with skill and brain power? At most it's a lame attempt to keep too many of something from going into the game, either gear or classes with spells. Change the quests to require more thought and get rid of the luck factor.
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Re: quest rares

Postby Birile » Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:59 pm

Latreg wrote:are most of the quest rare load mobs going to be removed or changed to non rare? What made me address this is trying to do the fire embody quest. Rare load mobs for quests are just a time sink, not only that but there is no skill involved just dumb luck being the right place, in the right time, in the right boot. Challenges and figuring things out is fine, but what do rare loads have to do with skill and brain power? At most it's a lame attempt to keep too many of something from going into the game, either gear or classes with spells. Change the quests to require more thought and get rid of the luck factor.


Bold mine.

To me, that's the important part of this post. With the news that Shev is allowing all Wizards in 2.0 to have any spell that is now in the game (so long as it's not on their banned schools' lists)--and this includes current quest spells--we're going to end up with a lot of Wizards who have phantasmal tendrils or some other powerful quested spell(s). So yeah, rare loads suck, but the only other option to keep too many of something from going into the game is to make the quests more difficult--but even then, we all know that once someone figures out a quest that their entire guild knows the entire quest instantly. So it's only a matter of time before even quests with upgraded difficulty were known by the general populace. Keep rareloads in, especially for quest spells.
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Postby Kegor » Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:27 pm

Very good topic here. Rare loads.

With boot times lasting so long these days, it has made a lot of quests that were designed to be difficult in the times of frequent crashes and reboots take exponentially longer and are made exponentially more aggrivating. Spell quests in particular, something should be done to still make them challenging, but not dependant on rareloads (aka reboots, crashes, camping, competition between other quests, and other players for the same thing mob load). It would be nice if this was looked at accross the board on all rare load quest affiliated things, but I realize that is a tall order.
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Postby Lilira » Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:12 pm

Its been suggested before in the case of rare-loads or boot-loads that simply setting a timer on the mobs would help in those times of the 90+ hour boots.

Someone quests mob X who happens to be a rare load mob. His timer resets to 20 hours. When the timer clicks, a variable or something determines whether or not he's going to load. If he does, he wanders around until someone finds him and quests him, or the timer resets for consideration again in 20 hours.

Heck.. in the case of rare-loads, have another timer that has them go away after so many hours.

Example in plain-ish english:

Chloracrida loads and is nuked. (S)he? is set on a 70 hour timer. If the mud boots, obviously the timer restarts, BUT, if she doesn't load there's a chance she will in 70 hours. 70 hours comes up, ding, mud decides whether its time to toss her out again. Nope, not her turn, click reset 70 hour timer. But wait... she loads and 14 hours pass. Chlora gets bored stomping through the hills and decides to fly off for more interesting pastures unloading with the timer reset to 70 hours. ( I can never remember if that dragon is male or female. *laugh* )

Only problem is... time to code it. For all we know this might be in the works for 2.0.
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Postby Latreg » Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:57 pm

rare loads are over used and used incorrectly imo. Why are some of these mobs rare load? They need to be relooked at to see if it makes sense. As for specifics, the fire embody quest, you need a rare load mob in the beginning, even though the last fight is a big one. Why is this mob a rare load, he's nothing special, not like a King or a named mob that would some how be special or unique. Just because you can't be creative when making zones or quests don't toss in some rare load mob just to "make it seem difficult" talk about dumbing down the mud. The thing is once you find the rare load (which again is at the beginning) the rest of it falls into place quickly, rather anti climatic. As I have said the difficultly should not be based on dumb luck or reward campers.
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Postby Botef » Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:51 pm

I tend to feel for both sides of the fence on this. Also, some global mobs do have a shot at reloading...I can think of a couple I've seen twice in one boot after being quested on numerous occasions.

In terms of mob rares and areas, rare mobs like in Greycloak I think work just fine...These mobs shouldn't be around all the time, etc. I enjoy checking out zones for rares in the offchance nobody else has been there, and smiting something of interest. Rares like sky metal on the other hand...bleh, what a pointless rare considering its just a race to login after camping the spot. Things like this probably made more sense when camping spots like this was frowned upon and enforced more so then now.

Core spellquests is my biggest peev with rares. It really truely sucks waiting months and months to catch one mob/rare to finish up a core spell quest. Things like this will most definately need to be evaluated for 2.0 as these spells become available to every caster.

I like rares in some senses, it depends on the local and how they are being used. Rares in zones like Izans and Clouds make things fun and toss up the action a bit. Rares like Finder, Sky-Metal, etc kinda bite on the whole of things simply because it just takes too damn long with a lot of monotous checking right at boot with boots lasting as long as they do.

UD Bazaar (I cant recall the full name, T. H.!) is a great example of how rares should work. You can go checking it at virtually any time in a boot and have a chance to find a rare because the rares have chances to load the whole boot instead of just at the start. Hopefully in 2.0 some features will be added to areas so that is easier to setup these kind of loads for writers.


One thing areas could try to use more though is timed loads i.e loading on specific MUD months, and delayed loads. This would keep the nostalgia of 'rushing' to a zone to catch a rare but remove the lameness of it being something only possible at boot.

I think the biggest issue with rares these days is that too many of them are 1-shot deals after a reboot/crash and not enough of them are dynamic in how they load.
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Postby Tasan » Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:19 am

Latreg wrote:As for specifics, the fire embody quest, you need a rare load mob in the beginning


This mob isn't rare by any stretch. It loads in multiple locations and probably is delayed load. I see it constantly.
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Postby Tasan » Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:40 am

Botef wrote:Rares like Finder, Sky-Metal


These two shouldn't be grouped. Finder gives outstanding rewards for a difficult quest, which is made more difficult by the rarity. Sky-metal is used for a generic spell quest(afaik), which has little to no difficulty other than collecting a couple rare items. Perhaps the real thing is, the sky-metal piece shouldn't be used for this quest. If it is indeed some sort of meteorite-type item, you'd imagine it would be a rare occurance to see it hit the ground...

Botef wrote:Hopefully in 2.0 some features will be added to areas so that is easier to setup these kind of loads for writers.

One thing areas could try to use more though is timed loads i.e loading on specific MUD months, and delayed loads. This would keep the nostalgia of 'rushing' to a zone to catch a rare but remove the lameness of it being something only possible at boot.


The tools are there, but for most the idea behind putting a rare mob, item or quest in a zone is to increase the amount of people interested in the zone. GC obviously is/was the most famous example of this. The delayed loads are caused by distro rooms instead of by actually delaying the time something could load, but it gets the job done.

Botef wrote:I think the biggest issue with rares these days is that too many of them are 1-shot deals after a reboot/crash and not enough of them are dynamic in how they load.


Because loads that don't load again need to be tied to a permanent object, this happens to be the case. You can certainly choose not to tie the mob to something permanent to allow it a chance to pop each zone reset, but in many cases that would trivialize the "effort" intended for the quest. It is fairly difficult to make a quest with lasting difficulty considering the freely available information nowadays.
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Latreg
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Postby Latreg » Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:18 pm

Tasan wrote:
Latreg wrote:As for specifics, the fire embody quest, you need a rare load mob in the beginning


This mob isn't rare by any stretch. It loads in multiple locations and probably is delayed load. I see it constantly.


we are not talking about the same mob, as it is part of a quest I didn't want to use specifics, this mob only loads in one area.

Now keep in mind I'm not talking about rare load items in zones, those are bonus/special type things. I'm talking about rares that seem to serve no purpose other than to be a stumbling block and time sink.
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Postby Botef » Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:32 pm

I familiar with how distro and object links work. I've always thought the distro concept for rares seemed more like a "working with what you got" kind of setup then a practical way to do things. I'm just saying a more dynamic system could be developed on the code end that doesn't require so much effort...Like a vartiable or random timer based chance to load a mob or obj, one that doesn't require using multiple zone files with different times and a lot of mucking around AFTER the zone is written. There are lots of interesting things that could be created in this way that would give area writers a more efficent way to toss things up. The way straight rares works is simplistic which is probably why its the most common. Would be nice if more tools like this could be developed code wise that take a lot of the logistics out of creating complex distros. The tools available to area makers in general could use a lot of revamping to accomedate things that currently require special code for, but thats a whole nother discussion.
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Postby moritheil » Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:58 pm

This thread is quickly devolving into a discussion about mechanics rather than design. It is possible to do what Lilira suggests with the present system. I'm not sure what purpose any discussion of mechanics beyond establishing this fact serves - since only imms are going to be using it, shouldn't they determine themselves what would be easiest for them?

As a counterpoint to what Jaz said earlier, it is my understanding that spell quests were made using rares specifically so that a huge group would not be required to do every step of the quest, and the questor could make progress by himself or herself. As such, it would appear to be a step backwards to eliminate the rare part and just have a series of huge fights for every spell.

Personally, I'm not sure what's wrong with the idea of rares for spell quests. Characters in literature often spend years searching for obscure scraps of forgotten lore in the hopes of gaining great power with no real promise of reward. The only difference here seems to be that the players know what they will ultimately get. Yes, using the same rare for an item quest and for a spell quest is somewhat mean, but stating that it is unfair is sort of like stating that the boot system is unfair because not everyone can be on at boot time.
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Postby Eshacin » Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:24 pm

Spell quests are fundamentaly broken. Take ress quest: the starting mob sounds like a quest mob, but gives you no clue what quest. You first have to happen on that mob, find out it's a quest mob, then do the quest until you find out what it's for. Could take you months for the one quest - shame if it's for a pair of shiny gloves instead of what you want. So are you supposed to try quests at random until you chance on the right one?

Making it next to impossible to gain the core skills for your class without inside knowledge is stupid. Having to tumble across some vaguely described mob out of thousands in hundreds of zones to advance a step in a quest is also stupid. Having to wait months/years (if you're not on the mud 24x7) for a rare load is stupid. These quests may have made sense when they were first written, but not now. If you want to attract and keep new players, don't make it impossible for them to advance their characters.

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