wings

A forum for discussion of the object changes...one thread per item please. Read the first post!
irta
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wings

Postby irta » Thu Nov 06, 2003 7:20 pm

The downgrade of gossamer wings of a faerie dragon pretty much limits all evils to wings of a griffon for good flight gear. If you can make both sets of flight gear have roughly equivalent stats that'd be good, otherwise faerie dragon isn't really go to be worth killing. It's not like getting the griffon wings is difficult. Upgrade them both, downgrade them, meet in the middle, doesn't matter too much, I just dislike having only one easy to get item to choose for flight gear.

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Postby thanuk » Thu Nov 06, 2003 7:51 pm

I can solo faerie dragon, and im a friggin warrior. Gotta disagree here.
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Postby Maedor » Thu Nov 06, 2003 7:52 pm

thanuk wrote:I can solo faerie dragon, and im a friggin warrior. Gotta disagree here.


If that's the case, then beef up the dwagon and save more eq from becoming werthless.

That being said, i have !clue what was done to goss wings.
irta
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Postby irta » Thu Nov 06, 2003 7:53 pm

thanuk wrote:I can solo faerie dragon, and im a friggin warrior. Gotta disagree here.


I agree it's not hard at all. But the griffon wings aren't hard at all either, and the faerie wings are at least rare. Seems pretty much the same to me.

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Nokie
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Postby Nokie » Thu Nov 06, 2003 7:53 pm

Keep in mind that the brass downgrades haven't gone in yet...
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Nov 06, 2003 8:36 pm

It's an easy fight so it should be a low level item. If I remember correctly, one of the reasons for equipment changes was so that bigger, tougher zones can be put in with better equipment. Why keep making what we already have harder when we can build the potential for an influx of high level zones geared more towards the abundance of players who are already wearing the best gear in the game?
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Postby Maedor » Thu Nov 06, 2003 9:16 pm

Ashiwi wrote:It's an easy fight so it should be a low level item. If I remember correctly, one of the reasons for equipment changes was so that bigger, tougher zones can be put in with better equipment. Why keep making what we already have harder when we can build the potential for an influx of high level zones geared more towards the abundance of players who are already wearing the best gear in the game?


Maybe for the people who spent way too much time collecting the gear that is now being nuked. I have considerably less time to zone now than i did a year or two ago. Does that mean i should be punished for playing years ago? Stats don't always need to be better...make them different. Zones don't need to be longer, make them challenging. Maybe reansiify some of the fugly items we have and put them in new zones:P ie silver bands in muspel :P

Ideas for this include clouds hood of fugliness, garish charm bracelet, fugly dscale robes,

Most people say they mud and zone for the fun and NOT the eq. If that's the case, then you don't need to put more insane items in every new zone. With that mentality, eq inflation will be a recurring problem. SPOB seems to have the best item for every slot..in general...I don't care how long or hard a zone is..that's just silly:) I can't wait for "SPOB2: The Return of SPOB". I hear 27hp pfa pfc fly permdi -4sv pet/bre/ss/para called proc scales 2/day cleric leggings are in there... :P

Did I have a point? Probably, but I forgot what it was...someone let me know if you find one.
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Postby Branthur » Thu Nov 06, 2003 9:27 pm

ROFL..you're kidding, right? They don't let clerics have any good gear. It's all mage hand-me-downs. :P
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Postby Larem » Sat Nov 08, 2003 3:01 am

i hafta agree with branthur, the spob cleric eq is nothing special

mages get all prots(cleric spells) MR and massive hp's

Rogues get all prots, MR and wicked hit/dam eq

Warriors get prots, and nice svs along with hit/dam

clerics get 3 prots, which we could cast upon ourselves, NO MR, and the one thing that i think would really help a cleric class out, PERM DETECT INVIS, why can not one of the heart cleric items get di? if you aren't gonna give us MR, why not? :P
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Postby Dezzex » Sat Nov 08, 2003 3:42 am

Because DI costs a billion points.

But on a serious note, how did the crystalline gear fare? So they didn't have any spiffy (worthless) MR, but they had primo hps for their slots and usually had some other side minor benefit to boot. I sure hope silver got downed. Besides, some of the other class eq is insane anyway and don't really serve as a good point of comparison.

As for wings... who cares? Who wears wings for 4 agi? At least they still fly. Given what happened to other GC rares I'd say that's pretty damn lucky. Not that I agree with the other GC changes but I'd say this is just fine.
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Postby Branthur » Sat Nov 08, 2003 4:56 am

Well, mentioned it before, but as it's the only cleric heartstone gear I have..


the heartstone cleric gauntlets -

AC 6, 14 hp, +2 hit

that's all..nothing else. 3-6 hours of spob for a chance at these, or 20 minutes in jot to get ogrehides, which have the same hp, better ac, and 9 con instead of +hit. *roll*

Alurissi's the man with all the other heartstone gear..I'll let him talk now. ;)
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Postby Salen » Sat Nov 08, 2003 5:16 pm

Heart cleric weapon
1 hand 4d6 19hp 4 hit !drop

Procs Bhaal' soul and spirit
(on interval procs dm,de,dg,bless,armor,vig lt,cure lt)

Now, individually
4d6 Very good 1hand damage
19 hp Again good, but multiple items that are higher hit points held
4 hit Again very good
!drop A must for a good weapon
Proc completely pointless (maybe shaman like armor) casts spells that I never bothered with before, and doesnt make them continuous, so I'm likely to forget to check the ones I do use.

You have a held it that A) will never hit, B) does not give cleric stats, and C) is outdone by multiple, much easier to get items.

A) I was a 31/26 and missed a good deal of the time, there is no way I could hope to get to 30 now that most all the hit/dam gear is downgraded( I don't care what people wanna dress it upo as, this was a wholesale downgrade). If I missed a bunch at 31hit, logic says I'm going to miss even more at 25hit. This weapon is only good for pleveling a character.

B) Yes, hitpoints is a cleric needed stat, but that's all this offers. Hit is mentioned above, huge damage goes with hit, and the proc is nothing more than things I already have, they are not permanent, and often have to be cast anyway as they have worn off.

C) Since the only stat on this item that is for clerics is hitpoints, the item is out done (so far) by both elemental orb of might (25hp 2maxint) and smoke orb (24hp 3maxwis). Ele might is 6hitpoints higher, and could notch for learning skills; Smoke orb is 5hitpoints higher and could notch wisdom for mem/cast times.

While on the face of it, this weapon is 'omg awesome', big hit, big dice and proc, in reality, it is a waste of time.

If it lost the proc and added the hp back, it would be worth using.
If it lost 1 dice, or 1 hit and picked up an combat effect proc, it would be good.
If it lost some hit or dice and gained maxwis, but that is over the 2 effect limits I believe.
If the proc affected the group when it proc, that would make it cool.
If the proc did large effects (bigger vit, bigger healing) or,
If the proc did things we can't do (str,dex, etc)

In short, because cleric fighting ability is so low, hit/damage and dice are moot points for us. The proc is a bunch of misc. spells that we only rarely cast anyway. The only thing that matters on this is HP, and they are too low to be useful to players that can do SPOB.

As it stands, the big SPOB item is worse than a normal item that is simple enough to get. In comparison to other huge SPOB items, I was a little bewildered why this was changed at all. When we first got it, it had no proc. I'd rather go back to !proc 25hp any day. It would be equal to Ele orb then, and a trade-off on smoke orb.
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Postby thanuk » Sat Nov 08, 2003 5:26 pm

Salen wrote:Heart cleric weapon
1 hand 4d6 19hp 4 hit !drop


You realize that your 1handed weapon from spob now has better dice then my 2handed dread gythka right?
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Branthur » Sat Nov 08, 2003 5:27 pm

thanuk wrote:
Salen wrote:Heart cleric weapon
1 hand 4d6 19hp 4 hit !drop


You realize that your 1handed weapon from spob now has better dice then my 2handed dread gythka right?


Yes, but as he pointed out, you can still hit things with a Gythka. :P
Salen
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Postby Salen » Sat Nov 08, 2003 5:36 pm

My weapon can PARA a mob?
My weapon has hit and DAM?
My weapon can be used by a class that can HIT mobs?
My weapon can be SOLO'd?

Comparing Gythka to SPOB is silly Nuk.

And, as I stated before, dice on cleric only=0, it could be 10d10 50dam and it wouldn't matter. I have to hit mobs, and that doesn't happen often, or didn't at 31 hit.
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Changes RE melee and melee weapons

Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sat Nov 08, 2003 5:58 pm

Salen has pointed out another trend that i absolutely abhorr. The fact that 2h weapons get a downgrade to their dice, and 1h weapons get a "tweak". There are apparently 4d6 and 5d5 1h weapons out there. there are still a few 8d4 2h'ers out there, but not many. As it is now, if you are a class that can dual wield, you're MUCH better off doing so. Hell, if you're a warrior, chances are you can get a 1h weapon thats decent dice (almost as cool as 2h) and wear your shield and you're set!

The problem is even larger for rogues. there are 4d5 + DAGGERS out there... for christ sake, as stated above, GYTHKA is 2h and does 4d5. since when does a little blade do as much damage as somethin swung with two hands?!

Whats happening here is that classes that use 2h weapons are getting hosed. the 1h'ers need a SERIOUS overhaul.

Imho, daggers should be a MAX of 2d6 but make a modifier to 1h piercing or something for rogues so that it does a bit more for them.

Make longswords and their class of weapons max of 3d5 as they are larger, heavier, and capable of removing entire limbs for christ sake. However, don't add near as large of a bonus to 1h slashing.

Make 2h'ers like 6d4-8d4 depending on difficulty, and give them a similar bonus to 2h slashing that 1h slashing gets.

Now, even with these changes, 2h is at a disadvantage. Yes, 1h does about 1/2 (a little more usually) of 2h, but you, as a warrior, get the big bad bonus of a shield for some pretty darn decent defensive skills. Plus this gives the added variety or incentive that if you want to do that little bit more damage, you can sacrifice the defense and wield somethin a bit beefier.
As it stands right now, rogues damage is not balanced by their skills or abilities, it's balanced by rogue eq (dice on rogue only piercers).

In closing, a quick comparison of a 1h weapon vs a 2h weapon.
There is a 1h weapon, 4d5 4/4 out there... rogueish type
compared to what twilight WAS before the changes 8d4 8/8.
now, the rogueish weapon was not a quest, wasn't a "rare" persay, but was from a difficult zone.
Twilight was an invasion item.

Now, some will say, "ahh but the mob twilight comes from also drops a different item!"
This is true. But you must fight your way through many other mobs to even get to this one, thus, enhancing what needs to ultimately be done to get it.
Now, the same can be said for the rogue item. You need to complete the zone to get it. However, upon completing the zone you also recieve many other items. Yes they come from different kills, but the same scenario applies.

The solution to the problem, fix the dice as above! change how objects are rated in terms of points. Just because something else is dropped with that mob shouldn't jack its value. Maybe spreading out the gear so that one mob isn't wearing all of it in zones would be more beneficial, no? I'd bet that by the guidelines of the object balance point values and whatnot, if you placed a decent piece of gear on some wandering mob in invasion that was relatively "weak" by standards, it would have a higher point value than if it were on a "tough" mob in that same zone that happened to load another item, equally as decent.



Once again, just a few things i've noticed...
thanuk
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Postby thanuk » Sun Nov 09, 2003 12:18 am

Salen wrote:My weapon can PARA a mob?
My weapon has hit and DAM?
My weapon can be used by a class that can HIT mobs?
My weapon can be SOLO'd?

Comparing Gythka to SPOB is silly Nuk.

And, as I stated before, dice on cleric only=0, it could be 10d10 50dam and it wouldn't matter. I have to hit mobs, and that doesn't happen often, or didn't at 31 hit.


It is silly. Gythka is easy to get now, but was hard once. SPOB was never hard really. Your weapon is 1handed, and mine is 2handed. Your weapon is wielded by a cleric, and mine is wielded by a warrior. And they have the same dice. And you're complaining that yours is underpowered. Think about that.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
Salen
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Postby Salen » Mon Nov 10, 2003 2:41 am

No Nuk, I'm saying that like a good many other things, insane amount of points go to stats on items that have no impact of the user.

This is supposedly a pinnacle item for clerics from SPOB, yet normal items are better. Hell, the SPOB shield which is lower level eq is better.

If things were 'balanced', this wouldn't be the case. They weren't balanced, they were downgraded and unbalanced in a different way.

Your gythka may well deserve a return to what it was, though I would think anything that can proc major para would be costly.

My morningstar probably does have too big of dice and hit, especially since it never hits now. Again clerics could be 10d10 and it wouldnt matter.
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Postby Dezzex » Mon Nov 10, 2003 6:10 am

With regards to cleric hitter gear, I'd say blame that on all those battle-cleric posts about how they want to doubleattack, shieldblock, hit mobs, do some damage, have some fun beyond fheal-fheal-fheal. Why aren't they here defending their precious battle-cleric equipment? :)
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Postby Cirath » Mon Nov 10, 2003 9:53 am

Dezzex wrote: Why aren't they here defending their precious battle-cleric equipment? :)


Because this started as a post on wings, and they didn't know it would end on weapon dice.
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Postby Ashemiem » Mon Nov 10, 2003 3:59 pm

It's true, I didn't expect to have to step into a thread on evil wearable wings to defend my battle equipment.

I love wielding a weapon, even as a cleric. I do it for utility purposes and not damage, as anybody who's really played understands that hitting stuff with a weapon, even a huge cold-iron hammer of skullsmashing, does negligible damage in the course of things.

I don't have the SPOB gauntlets, any more than I have some of the other nice hitter clericable gear. I used to have tiny ruby rings, but we can all guess what happened to +4hit rings located in a mid 30's to 40's zone. But I was wearing earring of the waters before, and hoping to get my hands on other hitroll. I wear +dex gear so I can have a high enough elfdex to get the occasional second attack in.

Please don't start knocking hitroll off cleric gear. Skill does matter, and with my maxed offense (yeah it's low but still maxed) and max weapon skills I actually can hit about 2/3 of my attacks with around a 21-24 hitroll. You may feel that the extra hitpoints or saving throws or max_wisdom is preferable, but it all boils down to opinion and there are other things in this game than having lots of hitpoints. And I still don't even die all that often for wearing +hitroll eq...

Ashemiem Autumnmoon
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belleshel
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Postby belleshel » Mon Nov 10, 2003 4:10 pm

Hmm wings, 2h weapons, cleric hitrolls...

Ashemiem wrote: and max weapon skills I actually can hit about 2/3 of my attacks with around a 21-24 hitroll.


Rare > Brass
2h > 1h
OMG, can rangers get cleric THAC0's please?;)

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