Effect of Object Changes:

A forum for discussion of the object changes...one thread per item please. Read the first post!

The equipment changes made my overall stats:

Poll ended at Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:11 pm

Much better
0
No votes
A little better
4
4%
They Really didn't change all that much
7
7%
A little worse
36
36%
Much worse
52
53%
 
Total votes: 99
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Effect of Object Changes:

Postby Cyric » Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:11 pm

I'd like a feel as to how you interpret the changes overall.

Please be honest.

If you lost 55 hitpoints that you didn't need anyway, and your only other change was that you lost a spell effect that a 5th level mage can cast on you, you did *not* suffer a massive setback.
Last edited by Cyric on Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby thanuk » Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:17 pm

I gained 6 ac.

Lost 6 hitroll, 9 damroll, 52 hps, 2 svpspell. My 2hand weapon of choice went from 8d4 to 4d5. Not sure if that's a little or a lot, really somewhere in between:)
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Postby Salen » Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:22 pm

Can we vote more than once?

As a cleric, I don't care. It usually cared just enough vits and forgot myself half the time, so my -100hp doesn't matter, though -6svsp sucks a bit.

As an enchanter, all of my 'real' eq is on loan so I don't know for sure, but I know that in my current eq the hp loss is pretty significant vs. area mobs. Pretty hosed here.

As an A-P, I got hosed Davey. My hit/dam went down a good deal (-4/-5 I think) and my ability to tank suffers too (-15ish AC). This is the exact opposite of what was supposed to happen.

Haven't bothered checking other alts, cuz they are all mages/clerics/warr, so it would be similar.


I would like to point out that if 'you lost a spell effect that a 5th level mage can cast on you' it probably didn't need to be removed in the first place, since you seem to mean it was insignificant. If it is insignificant to lose, it was insignificant to have, and thus didn't need to be 'balanced'.
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Postby thanuk » Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:28 pm

Salen wrote: it probably didn't need to be removed in the first place, since you seem to mean it was insignificant. If it is insignificant to lose, it was insignificant to have, and thus didn't need to be 'balanced'.


Faulty logic right there. A level 5(6?) mage can cast invisibility. But if I could invis myself, I probably wouldnt have to level up an alt just to do some quests:) Same with DI.
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Postby Malia » Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:33 pm

Nogs should delete this post and make it 2 seperate polls for warriors and for casters..
As a caster id say shrug the over all objective was reached and we all took a hit in hp but are all still functional. i would have voted not much change becuze you didnt affect what i could or couldnt do.

As a rogue, i got hosed, not as bad as psi (think they took it the worst) but i lost AC/hit/dam lost protects, and some abilities such as sense life and di.. and in return i gained nothing.. and it wasnt loosing just a little hit/dam i lost a bunch 34/43 down to 29/33.
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Postby Salen » Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:36 pm

Nope, not faulty. He made the insinuation that they were insignificant. If indeed they were insignificant not to affect you post-downgrade, they were insignificant enough to affect you pre-downgrade. You made the fallacy by missing the 'if insignificant to lose' part.
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Postby icecillam » Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:45 pm

Hp loss is all fine and nifty, lost some sv and stuff so had to shuffle eq around to get back into comfortable range while sacrificing hps.

Psp eq on the other hand was completly hosed, as all psp gear is no longer woth using over the hp loss. Ex, Basiliks leggings have much more functionality than the psp legs, and do much more to increase survivablility than the net benifit of psps from halflings. Will need to aquire a set of basiliks so I can continue to remove all my psp gear as it nets me virtually nothing.


--Edit--
Lost about 100 hps (not a big deal) 160 psps (big deal), di, dm, about 10 sv spell + moves. After reshuffling, hps loss same, psp loss about 15 more, 20 sv spell, moves back to normal (that tells you how crappy the top end psp items got turned into).
Last edited by icecillam on Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ihazim » Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:50 pm

I have to agree with the trend. My casters were for the most part, unaffected. Melee was nerfed good in comparison.
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:51 pm

< 423h/469H 138v/144V >

I lost 40 hps that I really didn't want to lose... as you can imagine by my hps posted above. As much as I don't like losing them, that doesn't mean I can't survive without them, I survived SPOB fairly well, I guess. I lost quite a bit of hitroll, but my skills are maxed, so it's not going to make much of a difference for me. I still have quite a bit of damroll and save breath, lost one prot, so I'll have to replace it. Somehow I doubt my effectiveness in-game was really reduced by any amount I can't overcome.
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Postby Izisayyin » Mon Nov 10, 2003 11:08 pm

Lost about 60hp, lost over 120psp.

Gained about 5 hitroll (god knows I need that!)

Now have +8 sv petri (not -8, +8) instead of 0.

My EQ was far from optimal for a psionicist, but I must say, a lot of the equipment I was working towards I no longer have any use for, so I guess i'm kind of glad I never got any of it.

Except for 2 items from clouds, I believe all +max_pow gear has now been removed from the game. Majority of +psp gear is now nearly useless or gone as well.
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Postby Gura » Mon Nov 10, 2003 11:18 pm

uh..i lost 3hit...43hps -2ss and i gained some dex and 3dam. dunno bout my ac its been buried at -100 for too long so uh yea. am i hurtin from it? not really. my anti on the other hand well..he lost 11dam and uh..-3ss, some hps think thats all.
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Postby Crumar » Mon Nov 10, 2003 11:53 pm

lost about 205 hp, -17 in sv petri, 20 ac and 3 hit 4 dmg. So I went around and got some other stuff to bring up my HP back to above 900 and now have -3 petri instead of the -29 I enjoyed before the changes. AC is at around -80 and my hit is still suffering but dmg I got back to around the same. Also from the switching around of eq I lost -9 in para -8 worth of sv spell.

So to sum it up I got downgraded overall in saves, HP, some AC and hit. Has it hurt my ability to tank? As compared to before I notice I am dying more, but I am a survivor so that doesn't bother me. As long as the casters are living I have done my job. But I notice that even the casters are dying too. Perhaps that was what was inteded I have no clue. With Crumar I will never be able to solo anything major and that is fine by me. This game is intended for people not to solo stuff. But with that said I do feel that something needs to be done to upgrade warrior tanking skills. Some good ideas in other threads have come up and I think that the staff should consider them.

As well lower level and new players dont have the luxury some of us long time players do in switching around eq so you should consider that as well. Even with my switching of eq I lost overall so...I see this as a downgrade over a upgrade. Tanks are still playable but we are dying way more now or at least I am. 2 nights ago I died 9 times with Crumar in one night that is a record for me, considering I have died only twice in a month and thats tanking major zones almost every other day. 6 times in Hulburg cause my saves went out the window and beholders owned me, and twice in Seelie cause the prisms owned me and had to CR the group. The 9th death was just a stupid mistake on my part :) Yesterday did Seelie again and died twice same scenario. We didn't even get into the zone we aborted so thats two failed Seelie runs cause all the tanks were eating spells like no tomorrow. Funny thing was we had 3 tanks and kept the mobs bashed but it was that one extra one that always walks in that either backstabs or prisms us to death. Hope that gives you a clear picture of what is going on recently, thanks.

Crumar.
Last edited by Crumar on Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby rylan » Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:22 am

Well I dropped abou 80hps after rearranging some eq, lost about 4 sv_sp, lost 6 sv_para and improved 6 sv_br. I'd rather get my -6 save para back that I lost from switching nightshades to slyphs, which have sv_br. Haven't done anything yet to see the differance in survavibility yet from the drop in saves however.

My warrior alt on the otherhand got ripped pretty severely... the only thing that got better are his icebear boots.
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Postby Gurns » Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:34 am

The singing part being a bard is a little worse (which is how I voted). Lost some hps, lost some saves, so I'm going to die a little more often than I used to.

The hitting part of being a bard is more than a little worse. Lost some hitroll, where I already had some problems hitting the biggest mobs. Lost some damroll, where I already didn't do a lot of damage hitting. And since it doesn't look like I can haste myself anymore (dunno when that change to the song went in), there goes that extra hit or two a round. So the worst hitting class got even worse.

Lucky me, I never thought of myself as a BattleBard of any sort -- damn it, Jim, I'm a singer, not a fighter! -- but I know bards that do. Or did.
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Postby Yayaril » Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:21 am

8)

I lost 150 hps, prot fire, and some armor class. Altogether, this stings. That adds up to 1-2 dragon breath blasts, 1-2 mob area nukes, or 1-2 rounds of tanking. If I had lost less than 100 hps, then I probably wouldn't have been too bothered, but over 150 hps is a large chunk of my survivability.
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Postby Azenilsee » Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:55 am

I lost 124hp, prot fire, sv_spell, and some ac. Needed to switch around some eq to maintain full prots. My only concern is zone survival so I have the same gripes with Yaya.

My troll warrior was hosed, lost 29 ac, 3hit/3dam, some hp and some sv_spells. Can't get -100 ac with armor potion, and this is pretty standard warrior gear.

However, my snake illus survived pretty well, even gained prot cold and sv_pet and very minimal hp loss. Guess which one I'm playing more. :)
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changes

Postby irta » Tue Nov 11, 2003 5:16 am

My initial loss was worse, but after switching to some spare gear, I lost 165 hps, 10 sv_spell, dm, 10 ac, and 8 sv_petr. I am significantly more susceptible to dying (especially in dragon fights) -- although this has tended to be more of a whole weakened group thing (i.e. tank dies, mob switches to me). I have no problem with this, as I think it increases my usefuless (i.e. embodiments are more important then before). So even though I voted that my stats were much worse, I am fine overall with the changes to myself.

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Postby Teralyn » Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:53 am

Well my hps and svsps weren't affected (my eq doesn't affect hps and _hardly_ svsp) but my major hit was hr/dr. It was at 31/27 which for a rogue is pretty pathetic, but hey it was good for me =P Now it's down to 24/25. So now I truely am pathetic.

Just logged on the enchanter...well she got _HOSED_ Lost around 45hps 40AC lost about 7sv_spe dropped 2wisdom I don't even know what else I lost, it's pathetic. And I'm not one of those lucky players that can just re-equip myself. So now there's not really much of a point to play my enchanter.
Last edited by Teralyn on Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Pheten » Tue Nov 11, 2003 11:15 am

Lost around 100 hps on pheten, gained about 10 ac, my saves got jacked hard, lost like 10sv sp plus others I cant remember, lost 3 prots and like 11 damroll, hitroll is the same, I'm seeing a trend here. It's not so much that melee got a small downgrade, it's the fact we were allready hurting and this just buried us deeper, we did not need this blow to the melee classes right now, we needed an incrase in power.

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Postby Bizal » Tue Nov 11, 2003 11:20 am

My rogue got nerfed bad aswell, my mage and cleric sorta got out where I assumed they would. but my rogue was 32 41 and is now 23 37, gained a few hp and -svsp, and lost about 25 ac.

I dont even play my 46th rogue now, he cant hit lvl 25 mobs. Need to get him lots of new eq first !
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Postby Nokie » Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:20 pm

Yes keep in mind that rogues have much worse thac0 tables than warrors/rangers/paladins/antipals

We need a lot more +hitroll than our other melee brothers to hit things the sme level.

Considering that and the fact that hit/dam eq (especially hit) got such a massive downgrade (see poll results), rogues especially got hit very hard.

Try being an elf or halfling rogue, the removeal of a lot of +hps from eq also hurts. It was bad enough having 500hps when every other class in the group had close to 1000.
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Postby old depok » Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:16 pm

Shaman - Wasn't even wearing some of my gear when I zoned anyway so all in all not a big deal. Probably dropped 100+ hps but not gonna notice it much.

Rogue - Well, lost 3 hit gained 1 dam lost 50 hps or so. He is a halfling so going from 30/40 to 27/41 was a bit of a blow.

Upside is my ring of battle fury which when I got it was trash now seems to be pretty good at +1 dam +20 hps. Which tells you how hard melee (rogues in particular it seems) got hit.

Did Seelie last night and the casters were droping like flies. Every time I looked up there was another Ashod corpse.
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Postby Pheten » Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:53 pm

Being an AP and only needing 10-12 hitroll to hit stuff I sometimes forget how bad it is being a rogue or a warrior type class that actually needs a ton of hitroll, surprised more rogues are not complaining about this, If a rogue takes 10 hitroll shot to the nuts, replacing that hitroll means even more losses to his other stuff, IE damroll, HP, saves, AC, prots, so the effect of the equipment changes is twofold at least on those folks.

-phet
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Postby Areandon » Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:15 pm

Hmmm lost about 40 hps on my chanter and gained 20hp back so that's not something i worried about. I found it more disturbing i lost like 20 ac, considering it already sucked big time. I expected to loose the hps, but ac was a bit puzzling.

What is weirder is that my rogue lost way more than my chanter. a whole bunch of ac, some hit/dam and some hps.

I also lost a bunch of spellsaves accross the board. Not too happy with that either.
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Postby Nokie » Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:00 pm

Pheten wrote:Being an AP and only needing 10-12 hitroll to hit stuff


Wow you only ned 10-12? With maxed combat skills, most rogues need around 35 to hit decently vs high level mobs.
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Postby Pheten » Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:42 pm

with 10-12 I will hit fairly well with the occasional miss, I get over 15 and I almost never miss. Maxxed skills level 50 of course.. not like this early on.

-phet
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Postby Treladian » Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:46 pm

I lost either 2 or 3 hit, depending on what rings I wear, and 3 dam. The dam I'm not so concerned about, losing that hitroll hurts though. I need about 33 hitroll to hit in melee consistently. Now I'm down to 29/30 hit without spells, 32 with. And natures blessing doesn't have a very long duration. I don't want to think about what my hitroll would be like had I swapped my dscale cloak for a seelie king's before the changes.

I at least have the option of using a bow and still hitting consistently since I'm one of the few rangers with enough +4 or better arrows to deal with missile shield though. At least ranged didn't take a hit.

(edited cause I forgot that I auto unwield my offhander when renting)
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Postby Todrael » Wed Nov 12, 2003 12:02 am

Heh, I don't know what happened, but when I tried to solo a mob that I've done a hundred times before and usually only takes off about 400 hps, I had to flee and fully heal myself twice. That was whacked out, no way that could be fully the result of the eq changes..
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Postby rylan » Wed Nov 12, 2003 12:47 am

Yeah something strange is going on, like mobs are hitting more or doing more damage also. My alt was able to solo some stuff before the change and song of regeneration would keep up with the damage. Now I end up hurt pretty bad at the end and have to wait to regen hps.
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Postby Waelos » Wed Nov 12, 2003 2:19 am

I can't remember what I was straight up from changes. . .but now that I've moved some eq around (actually 2 or three items). I'm now at 31 48, -95 AC without spells, 554 hps (loss of about 30), -3para, -2petri, -10 breath, -10 spell. Most of the eq I wear can transfer to my warrior. . . so Im guessing her stats would be about the same.

Rogues and rangers both need high hitroll (their Thac0 is about 2-5 points off) . .. depending on the mob 30-33 seems to work for rangers. If I could get by with a hitroll of 12. . 15 .. .hell, even 25 I could jack my damroll up to 60. (I would lose some more hps, but wouldn't be that big of a sacrifice).

I still have pfc pff pfg pfl without factoring in the scepter as well. . . I don't think I ever had PFA without it. . .

So, in general. . . I think its been an upgrade. It looks like rogues got hit hard, and warriors. . . I don't know if it is a matter of shifting eq around and finding a better suit or if the changes did some real damage. I do see alot of instances where objects stats are just plain weird and should be tweaked (alot of quest eq). Hope this info helps somewhat. =)

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Postby Waelos » Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:06 am

Oh yeah. . I've got 100 +3 arrows and over 50 +4 arrows. . . never even bothered ID'ing them until now. Maybe I am an anomolie but my melee far outpaces archery, perhaps it is even against warrior mobs with shields. As bad as melee is atm, I think archery needs some serious lovin'!

Maybe we need to add some archery loving for specialists. . .
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Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:03 am

i don't think ac was hit hard enough

especially on caster gear.

especially on mageable gear.
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Postby Glorishan » Thu Nov 13, 2003 12:37 pm

As a cleric I lost prot acid/gas/lightning, 6 sv spell, 81 hps, some max wis, bout 20 ac, and some other stuff. I gained about 4 sv_breath. Life goes on though. Survivability not really reduced too much, and adjustments can be made.

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Postby belleshel » Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:30 pm

Waelos wrote:Oh yeah. . I've got 100 +3 arrows and over 50 +4 arrows. . . never even bothered ID'ing them until now. Maybe I am an anomolie but my melee far outpaces archery, perhaps it is even against warrior mobs with shields. As bad as melee is atm, I think archery needs some serious lovin'!

Maybe we need to add some archery loving for specialists. . .


As long as we can choose to be a melee specialist;)
Archery is for wankers.
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Postby Waelos » Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:35 pm

*silently agrees with Belleshel*

shh! I still want 'em to put in some loving for ranger melee spec's! but gotta toss a bone to those bOw bOw's, so to speak. lOl


jk!

Lost
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Postby Ambar » Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:59 pm

did mages across the board lose spell_save and warrior classes gained it?? mine was low before ... only like -23 .. . now it sits at -14 at best ...
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Postby Guw » Fri Nov 14, 2003 12:06 am

Ambar,

I think it was across the board downgrade.. Guw's (troll war) saveVspells dropped from -25 to -17.
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Postby omrec » Fri Nov 14, 2003 3:40 am

Chanter: Lost around 120 hps, after moving eq around. Lost protl. Saves stayed pretty much the same, overall, but thats cause I didn't wear much in the way of saves. Also lost a TON of AC, because of silver bands and shroud dgs. Have died more than normal recently, and also I've suddenly become the target of bashes/switches (I think cause of HP drop, but not sure. I almost never got switched to before).

Anti: Lost around 80 hps, gained AC, lost about 4/8 hit/dam. Don't think I lost any prots, but I didn't have that many of them. Some of that should be fixable with gear I'll start getting once the fixes settle. Thankfully, as Pheten said, we don't really need much hitroll..:) I'm just sad that I was finally past 50 damage in hitter mode and now I'm a ways away again..:( These changes seemed to have hurt warriors/rangers/rogues a lot more than the knights.

Waiting for quests to be fixed so I am not so dissappointed in things like conquest armor/helm.

-Om
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Postby amolol » Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:21 am

i lost 25 ac 6 hit 4 dam lost my con notch lost my str notch (im an elf THESE R IMPORTANT) lost 9 svs 3 svb

lost some int dex and agi too but not enough to affect a notch as far as i can see.... in essence i got raped
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:23 am

Rangers get the strength spell :P Use it :P
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Postby amolol » Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:04 am

i do use it i was just pointing that stuff out. i know the class i know we get str... how stupid do you guys really think i am? oh yea on my warrior i lost 60 hp 25 ac and um i think thats about it for me cleric.. well he is mostly nekid so idunno
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Postby Deshana » Mon Nov 17, 2003 4:09 am

Lets see, desh now has a 95 wis down from 115,

i lost 200 hp on desh 40 on maeli 150 on silvine.

i lost pff on all characters

the first wave of changes took my ROGUE from 33/40 to 25/17
by this point and some frantic shuffling i've managed 33/27
balancing melee you said?

hmm

I lost a ton of wisdom on silvine,
overall the ONLY gain i had was a few points of int on maeli.
thanks.
really.
Ensis
Sojourner
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Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 5:01 am
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Postby Ensis » Mon Nov 17, 2003 4:13 am

Deshana wrote:Lets see, desh now has a 95 wis down from 115,

i lost 200 hp on desh 40 on maeli 150 on silvine.

i lost pff on all characters

the first wave of changes took my ROGUE from 33/40 to 25/17
by this point and some frantic shuffling i've managed 33/27
balancing melee you said?

hmm

I lost a ton of wisdom on silvine,
overall the ONLY gain i had was a few points of int on maeli.
thanks.
really.


So.........bad then?

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