Downgrade SPOB

A forum for discussion of the object changes...one thread per item please. Read the first post!

Downgrade SPOB

Yes
36
62%
No
22
38%
 
Total votes: 58
Dalar
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Downgrade SPOB

Postby Dalar » Sat Nov 15, 2003 5:29 pm

I don't care if the zone was upgraded. It still doesn't justify the fact that you can get a full set of the best gear in the game from one simple zone. The idea of random rewards has been played and the people who vote yes in this thread probably agree that it has failed. If the eq system doesn't deal with lowering points for having random rewards, then it should.

Please all but 6 items per class. For people who got more than that, give them back hearts to give to nern. Players shouldn't be rewarded with the best items in game (even after most quests) for doing an easy and repetitive class. It's already bad enough we have DS exp and half the lvl 41+ population being a complete newbie.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Pheten » Sat Nov 15, 2003 5:39 pm

One of the biggest bitches of immortals in the past was the fact that the players would only do the main zones for equipment and none of the others, now you only have to do ONE zone, and you are wasting your time if you set foot in another zone or bother to do any quest. I mean for christs sakes after the recent changes to equipment SPOB's equipment is just nuts.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sat Nov 15, 2003 5:43 pm

never thought i'd hear myself say this, but...

I agree with 100%!

It is a zone, where people go naked. This already caters to the casters, and some classes are actually left out of that zone pretty regularly, as their skills don't offer much in the way of help.

Also, as stated above, a reward for a tough zone, or invasion, is nice, but all the best eq for the available slots? seems a bit too much to me. I've only done the zone twice, but it didn't seem THAT difficult to me, just time consuming.
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Postby rylan » Sat Nov 15, 2003 6:47 pm

You know personally I really don't see a problem with it. The zone was tweaked several times to increase difficulty (which was extremely effective) and chance of death has gone substantially up, along with required skill and time to complete the zone.
Some people see the whole random eq thing as being too good a reward. Honestly I don't see that, as the cumulative odds of winning the bid and getting the desired item are pretty low. The way the zone is now, if you have a group of people who work well together and know what they're doing, you might survive. Add a few people who aren't the top players of their class, and there are a lot of deaths and lots of time needed. I think spob deals with those 'lvl 41+ complete newbies' that Dalar refered to, because they'll either not get invited to spob, or die a whole lot there.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sat Nov 15, 2003 7:47 pm

rylan wrote:You know personally I really don't see a problem with it. The zone was tweaked several times to increase difficulty (which was extremely effective) and chance of death has gone substantially up, along with required skill and time to complete the zone.
Some people see the whole random eq thing as being too good a reward. Honestly I don't see that, as the cumulative odds of winning the bid and getting the desired item are pretty low. The way the zone is now, if you have a group of people who work well together and know what they're doing, you might survive. Add a few people who aren't the top players of their class, and there are a lot of deaths and lots of time needed. I think spob deals with those 'lvl 41+ complete newbies' that Dalar refered to, because they'll either not get invited to spob, or die a whole lot there.


You know, if I didn't know what zone you were talking about, I'd swear it was BC..Except there's only one good item from there still. :(

I've never done the zone, I just enjoy being an ass. But shrug. It's rewards should be under BC's if you ask me.
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Postby Vahok » Sat Nov 15, 2003 9:05 pm

Yeah, with the changes SPOB is a corpsefest now...

But, BC does need an upgrade as well...
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Postby Dizzin » Sun Nov 16, 2003 12:30 am

Dartan stated most of my problems with this zone. But one he forgot to mention is that this zone is absolutely ZERO risk. You lose exp. That's all. There's no way, no matter how hard you try, to lose your equipment. I find CC scarier than fugging SPOB. Not to mention Hulburg or BC. Even the exp you lose should never be a large amount if your group is even semi-competent. And PLEASE dont whine to me about blah blah, exp is soooooo boring and time consuming. It's a HELL of a lot easier than recovering a full set of highlevel eq.

Downgrade the eq you get from SPOB. Downgrade the selection available from SPOB.
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Postby Dalar » Sun Nov 16, 2003 1:11 am

To the average person it's random rewards. To someone who thinks outside the box it is all predictable.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Burpie » Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:28 pm

Yay! Another Dalar post where he gets nice eq from there, then bitches. He posted about this on Sojourn. It's great that he brings his limp wristed bard, sits afk (dying more than once from being afk) then whines about eq from the zone. *roll*
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Postby Stamm » Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:58 pm

I don't see a problem with heart gear from Spob being very nice.

Large gem stuff should be nice stuff, but certainly not the best for slot in the game.

And cracked should be, at best, niche gear, stuff you might wear for a certain fight.

There's, what, 4 heart items for each class? That means 4-6 slots, the other slots may well be filled by Spob items but they shouldn't be the best in the game.

I don't know the stats on enough stuff to say where it is for Spob, but I do know how the warrior stuff is. And the warrior stuff seems to be about right.
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Postby Branthur » Sun Nov 16, 2003 8:06 pm

*shrug* You know, I look at the stats for even the heartstone cleric gear, and there's only an item or two that I'd consider wearing over things that I have from other zones.

Spob is fine..it's a fun zone with some nice rewards, but especially now it's hardly a place where you can "get a full set of the best gear in the game from one simple zone."
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Postby belleshel » Sun Nov 16, 2003 8:31 pm

Leave it with some decent gear, but it's no-risk. There is no way any piece should be better than a hard quest piece of gear in game.
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Postby Dalar » Sun Nov 16, 2003 8:40 pm

ok u guys are looking at your individual classes. try looking at mages.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Branthur » Sun Nov 16, 2003 8:48 pm

Then say downgrade mage spob gear, not downgrade spob gear. :P Slight bit o difference there.

and no, not gonna comment on spob mage gear, since I don't know stats for most of it.
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Postby Thilindel » Sun Nov 16, 2003 8:50 pm

Mageblade..boring. Monocle..boring. considering the length of time SPOB can take, who cares? :P The zone can be a complete asskicking. The last fight is a hell of a bitch.
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Postby rylan » Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:18 pm

I think its funny how people say there is no risk in doing the zone. The risk is putting in a crapload of time, losing xp, and then not getting the item you wanted because you got one of the crappy random things.
And anyway, be honest here, is there _really_ any risk that you're going to lose your eq by doing other zones? If you spank deep in seelie, you get backup gear and even get other people to help cr if needed. Same with hulburg and any of those nasty repoping zones. The risk is additional (sometimes crazy) amounts of time and lots of lost xp from a damned hard cr. Worst things that happen are a piece of eq here and there getting poofed by a dragon because somebody screwed up. Lots of zones have a higher chance of dying, but you're not going to kiss your eq goodbye unless you have a group full of peopl who don't have a clue what they're doing.
SPOB is a hard zone, and even with a good group you can still get whupped.
Last edited by rylan on Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:21 pm

rylan wrote:I think its funny how people say there is no risk in doing the zone. The risk is putting in a crapload of time, losing xp, and then not getting the item you wanted because you got one of the crappy random things.
And anyway, be honest here, is there _really_ any risk that you're going to lose your eq by doing other zones? If you spank deep in seelie, you get backup gear and even get other people to help cr if needed. Same with hulburg and any of those nasty repoping zones. The risk is additional (sometimes crazy) amounts of time and lots of lost xp from a damned hard cr. Worst things that happen are a piece of eq here and there getting poofed by a dragon because somebody screwed up.


Everyone dies inside of BC? Have fun with that one.
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Postby rylan » Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:23 pm

Something called CR gear, and getting other people to help. I'm sure you've heard about or seen some of the big crypts spanks earlier in the wipe. We just kept getting more people to help and hitting all the backup gear until the cr worked. Yes even in BC you shouldn't lose your eq, however the chance of that is higher than your 'normal' big zone, so the eq from there _should_ be appropriately better.
Last edited by rylan on Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:26 pm

I don't think you can really compare something like that to a BC spank. Call me crazy. I really don't think at the moment, there IS a comparison. It's apples and oranges, you just can't compare them. My opinion anyway, and hey. Much like most people say, what do I know. :P
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Postby rylan » Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:26 pm

Yes BC is sort of a special situation, but I'm sure you get the general point I'm trying to make :)
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:29 pm

Yeah, and people don't have CR gear anymore. We just take stuff off our alts. :P
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Postby Branthur » Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:29 pm

"Yeah, well BC's harder"

Seems that we see this over and over and over and over and over again. _Nobody_ is saying that BC isn't one of the hardest zones in the game. I don't think I've seen a single person EVER say that BC equipment needs downgrading. I think every reference to BC made says that the equipment needs to be upped.

I agree, BC should arguably have the best statted items in the game other than Tiapet. No question. But the fact remains, compared to pretty much any other zone in the game at this point, you are NOT going to lose your gear. Strange things do happen, yes. But be it Seelie, Clouds, TF, Spob, Roots, Crypts, etc, etc, etc, all you are really risking is time and experience if you fail your resurrect.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:42 pm

My original point is, the problem does still exist. It just doesn't for old freaks. But any new people, the problem is still very real to them. First time zone, goes to crypts, huge spank. They have no extra gear, yeah, they're worried about losing their stuff, they have no idea what's going on.
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Postby Branthur » Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:46 pm

Any new people are grouped with old people doing the zone, or if there's any big trouble (ie, 3 runs into crypts spanking each time, corpses piled up high), they're going to ask for help.

Still not an issue.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sun Nov 16, 2003 11:04 pm

I still disagree(And thanks for giving me something to do at work :P Boring as sin up here).

The actual threat is still there, regardless of them asking for help. It's a low chance, but there's still a chance. Run is taking 4 hours, they died 3+ hours ago, corpses rotted, boom, mud crashes. I mean, crashes are always a might-happen thing :P So the problem still exists, even if it is a small one.
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Postby Waelos » Sun Nov 16, 2003 11:17 pm

Maybe SPoB can retain its stats if we come up with a bigger risk. ..

What if we simply allowed characters to enter SpOB with their equipment. .. but it shifts into 'Ghostly' Eq that has 1/4 or less of the stats they currently have? Or maybe no stats at all. That way you have the risk of other zones (perhaps more) and the difficulty of being statistically naked.

Of course, to prevent twinking you'd need somehow to make sure people were going in with their normal eq. . . I'm sure this could be done somehow. . .perhaps by basing their 'naked' stats on current when entering... so if I come in with 700 hps, the zone knocks off 75% of that and drops me to 350. . .. if I go in with 100 hps I'm down to 25. Yea, you might have people messing with what eq they take in, but its still a risk =)

Might be hard to code but I think it addresses current concerns =)

Oh, and to get out you'd have to either complete the zone, or drag corpses out through another portal (entering this portal would destroy any soulgems or seals.)

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Postby Gura » Mon Nov 17, 2003 12:32 am

cut the selection of items from nern in half. too much good stuff coming from 1 zone is stupid especially with 40hr boots. upgrade the difficulty on some old zones and throw a nice item in there.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Nov 17, 2003 12:47 am

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:Boring as sin up here.


Sin is so NOT boring you should know that
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Nov 17, 2003 12:55 am

It is when im at work :P
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Postby Salen » Mon Nov 17, 2003 1:59 am

How about... make BC worth going to instead of making SPOB not worth going to.

Novel concept, lets UPGRADE something.
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Postby Mitharx » Mon Nov 17, 2003 2:42 am

There are some really good spob items, but I am currently not aware of them being completely overpowering considered the odds of winning them and the fact that some eq on the same level as descent eq (heart for heart or cracked for cracked) isn't all that great.

Should the best items from the game come from there? No they should be quests involving items from very difficult places (including there perhaps). Still, there is nothing wrong with the equipment being good. I'm just not seeing how many spob items are making me over powered. Please explain.

As for BC comparisons. I've never done BC and I have no doubt it's the most difficult, impossible, no CR'in, quit the mud, run over your family pet, sleep with your grandma, your head will explode if you die, and frusterating kind of zone.

But no one does it....

So do we want to make SPOB as difficult as BC? The best eq in the game should come from BC because it's the hardest zone (this is hypothetical) and therefore no one shoudl have the best gear!
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Postby Gura » Mon Nov 17, 2003 2:47 am

bc used to get done and we were waiting to do it again after eq changes however the eq got downgraded instead of upgraded so its even more pointless to do now. but as for spob yea it should have a couple good items...but it should not host half the best items in the game right now.
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Postby Gurns » Mon Nov 17, 2003 2:49 am

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:Run is taking 4 hours, they died 3+ hours ago, corpses rotted, boom, mud crashes.

Last I heard, corpses that hadn't been dragged or looted took 18 hours to rot. That been changed? And if you've got a bunch of corpses, and the mud keeps crashing, that's when you ask the gods to do something.

Or accept the loss. No, I don't want to chase away newbies. But if they can't suffer through a loss of equipment, especially given what gets handed out free, to newbies these days!... *shrug* It's part of the game. Or used to be. You get a rare single player losing gear these days, link loss or RL thing at a bad time. But a whole group? When was the last time that happened? Soj2? Toril1?
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Nov 17, 2003 2:54 am

You know, I completely forgot about that. My mistake. Oh well, ignore what I said I spose.
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Postby Gurns » Mon Nov 17, 2003 3:12 am

Having done SPOB exactly once, and knowing some about the equip, well, I still have an opinion. I think the equip is overpowered. The calculator might not think so, but while the zone is long and painful, it's not that painful. And I suspect the time to do the zone can be rather shorter than we took. We had some extra deaths that ate up time.

I suggest two things to nasty it up, without changing any of the equip rewards.

(1) The backstabbing mobs should roam. Not into the entry room, but all over their own grid, maybe a little further.

(2) When the zone pops, one of the gems should, at random, be set to give you nothing. And no way to tell which gem it is. If you're feeling really nasty, toss the heart onto that list.

Still doable. Still well worth doing. More annoying to do. Fewer rewards, without dg any of the equip. Might even call for an upgrade of a few pieces of the equip, if one of the classes is coming up a bit short.

Now if you really want to nasty it up.... *cackle*
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Postby Dizzin » Mon Nov 17, 2003 3:45 am

I've got a better idea. Easy it up. Not massively, but put it back to how it was when it first went in. Maybe even remove a mob from each of the last 3 fights and a roamer or 2 on the grids. Then downgrade the eq to compensate. Still allow heart to be on par with top items from seers, large gem about clouds level, and maybe slightly-SLIGHTLY upgrade the cracked gems. Well, except for the mage ones as those are still way off-base. And of course, cut the number of possible rewards for each class/level in half.

I mean, I love the ideas behind spob. I love the reward system. I love the idea of zoning naked. And I think it'd be a nice zone to do for fun, in around a normal clouds time run, without TOO much extra risk of dying foolishly. It'd be a good zone that way imo.

But the fact you can go there currently, smite for 3 hours with no risk of eq loss, and only a slight risk of dying, (though maybe more with the new changes) and get the best eq in the game? And nothing else even comes close? I mean that's just wrong.

And before you wank off about oh, spob's a deathtrap, people die all the time, continuously and often. I've done spob with 7, 8, and 12 deaths TOTAL, period. I've never even done it with more than 20 deaths. I mean.. I've watched scorp king do more damage than that by himself. :P Hell, I watched a single scorp squad do that. :P

Anywho, point is, make the zone slightly easier, slightly shorter, and slightly less of a deathtrap, and then downgrade the rewards to compensate. Make it a fun zone that people do when they wanna zone naked and show off skills, and get decent top-level rewards to boot.
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Postby rylan » Mon Nov 17, 2003 3:51 am

I think you guys need to go do spob with the latest changes and see what you think. I think it justifies the eq thats from there (although some items should be reviewed to be both ug'd and dg'd).
Other than that, Dizzin's suggestion about making it easier and lowering the eq stats is always an option.
Last edited by rylan on Mon Nov 17, 2003 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Gura » Mon Nov 17, 2003 3:53 am

from what i've heard there was only 1 major change and it doesnt sound like its that much of a difference except for 1 fight
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Postby Waelos » Mon Nov 17, 2003 4:57 am

Depends on what the 6 items are ;)
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Postby Savras » Mon Nov 17, 2003 4:58 am

Most likely random.
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Postby Salen » Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:00 am

Savras wrote:(since this is purely catering to a player desire and not a bug or other issue


What is the required number for 'player desire', cuz I'm pretty sure you don't have a concensus.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:32 am

Savras wrote:-IF- I decided to move all but 6 items from loading, I'll be completely removing those other items from the game. No reimbursements (since this is purely catering to a player desire and not a bug or other issue). That work for everyone?


there is no way you're going to get people to agree to that. why not just change all but 6 items into rentable seals that you can give to nern?
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Postby Salen » Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:00 am

Just in case it matters, I've been downgraded enough this month. No, I wouldn't be ok with losing multiple items do to lack of forethought in putting this stuff in in the first place.

Sorry if I sound testy, but I didn't spend approx. 100 hours getting this stuff to have it poof because you don't want to change it over.
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Postby Branthur » Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:22 am

I'm sorry, but I just don't see a problem with spob as it is right now. Sure, maybe a bit more balancing to some of the eq, but that's on a constant basis right now anyway with _all_ zones. Leave it as is.

I would say more, but it'd just end up being flames...no point in that.
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Postby thanuk » Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:27 am

Savras wrote:-IF- I decided to move all but 6 items from loading, I'll be completely removing those other items from the game. No reimbursements (since this is purely catering to a player desire and not a bug or other issue). That work for everyone?


Your brave dude, that's a lose-lose situation for you if i've ever seen one:)
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Postby Mitharx » Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:57 am

I really feel that the "loss of eq" statement is false. People have not lost all their eq in a really long time and most likely will not lose it regardless of what zone they do. Perhaps we should ignore the factor of you can lose all eq (especially since it go 0 points in estimating how eq should be stated).

BTW: Reimburse or nothing. Winning a heart is not an everyday thing. And I won two in a row. Oteb did the same. I haven't won any since and I don't believe he has either.

I still want to know which items are making me so overpowered. They're good but my belt is on the level wiht demi (especially since spob mage heart belt does two things and one is jack).
Branthur
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Posts: 196
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Thief River Falls, MN

Postby Branthur » Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:03 am

Have to agree Mitharx..I keep seeing this "best equipment for every slot" statement over and over again. I have yet to see exactly which gear people are so upset about.
rylan
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Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Hudson, MA

Postby rylan » Mon Nov 17, 2003 2:12 pm

*nod* bran and mitharx

At this point though, if people are bitching so much to get it downgraded, I say go for it Savras. I haven't won a thing from there yet, so items being removed won't impact me. :P
I'd bet you'll see whining about the eq not being good enough for how hard the zone is if you removed stuff though.
Gura
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Location: Yer girlfriend's bed

Postby Gura » Mon Nov 17, 2003 3:59 pm

i guess savras has to respond with a threat of taking away our eq instead of addressing the issue in a civilized manner. its not our fault you implemented a zone that threw the mud out of balance.
Dornax says 'And for the right amount of information ye might get some nookie out of Nokie..'



Nokie wiggles his bottom.

Teba tells you 'let me do my job you volo twinker!'

Bobidibble GCC: 'yeah i admit gura is a better warrior then i am, no shame in it... perhaps someday i shall be as pimp'
Dalar
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Posts: 4876
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Dalar » Mon Nov 17, 2003 4:31 pm

i'm pretty sure i know how the quest works. give me the vnums and I'll do it for you :)
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'

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