Downgrade SPOB

A forum for discussion of the object changes...one thread per item please. Read the first post!

Downgrade SPOB

Yes
36
62%
No
22
38%
 
Total votes: 58
Salen
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Postby Salen » Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:31 am

If I lose items because of you, I'm driving to your house and kicking your ass.

If anything, drop to 2 items of each seal, but turn all of the other ones into seals also so we can re-quest them. I was whole-heartedly in favor of a reduction in item types when we first found out SPoB had multiple items in each seal type, but now that tons of people have items, and you would be screwing over.... 10/16 heart winners (Sarvis' keep 6 and assuming Im right that there are 4 heart each) or in Dartan's case 12/16.

We've all been downgraded enough recently, let's quit with the 'Let's downgrade some more'.
Waelos
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Postby Waelos » Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:28 am

Yea. . um, try actually reading before you threaten =P

I suggested that some of the current items be MOVED. Not REMOVED. I know it might be difficult to differentiate between the two. . .


Peace.

Lost.
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Postby Mitharx » Thu Nov 20, 2003 4:13 am

Sounds reasonable.
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Postby Dizzin » Thu Nov 20, 2003 4:22 am

I have to agree with Dartan. Moving 1 isn't enough, should be 3, from each tier.

I mean honestly guys, it's a zone that has enough eq coming out of it to fill every slot on every player in the game. That doesn't seem off to you?

And I still stand by the fact that several pieces of eq from that zone are too good for their difficulty as things stand right now.
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Postby Stamm » Thu Nov 20, 2003 4:33 am

3 from each tier? How many are there on each tier? I think there's 4 heart items are there like 6 large and 8 cracked or something?
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:18 am

These kind of posts make me sick. Not one person says 'Hey, it's a great zone and it's something to look forward to.' Nope, it's the same post that was ignored on Sojourn, just brought up again...and by the same person.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:28 am

yep and the same people trying to defend it and the same people trying to make some change. what's the difference? eq changes are in now.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:29 am

Salen wrote:If I lose items because of you, I'm driving to your house and kicking your ass.

If anything, drop to 2 items of each seal, but turn all of the other ones into seals also so we can re-quest them. I was whole-heartedly in favor of a reduction in item types when we first found out SPoB had multiple items in each seal type, but now that tons of people have items, and you would be screwing over.... 10/16 heart winners (Sarvis' keep 6 and assuming Im right that there are 4 heart each) or in Dartan's case 12/16.

We've all been downgraded enough recently, let's quit with the 'Let's downgrade some more'.


you were only downgraded if you wore easy to get gear. the obvious solution is to wear hard to get eq.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Dalar » Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:31 am

Salen wrote:If I lose items because of you, I'm driving to your house and kicking your ass.



God I i don't think i've laughed this hard before
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby thanuk » Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:33 am

Currently taking bets, giving 3-1 if you take Dartan, 2-5 if you take Salen.
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Postby Waelos » Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:01 am

What are the odds on Weylarii vs. Salen? I thought that scary asskicking was directed at me!

And here I went out and upped my life insurance policy!

(Hey, people HAVE died laughing!)

Lost.
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:16 pm

Dalar wrote:you were only downgraded if you wore easy to get gear. the obvious solution is to wear hard to get eq.


I have to say BULLSHIT to that, about the only gear that no one has said has been down graded is tiamat. All the hard zones and invasions have been downed.
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Postby Colje » Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:24 pm

mynazzaraxxsyn wrote:
Dalar wrote:you were only downgraded if you wore easy to get gear. the obvious solution is to wear hard to get eq.


I have to say BULLSHIT to that, about the only gear that no one has said has been down graded is tiamat. All the hard zones and invasions have been downed.



Tiapat eq hasnt been downgraded? oh my god, lets go on strike, boicott anyone having tia eq :P

Anyways, I agree on that SPOB eq should be toned down, to much good eq from one zone.
But Spob as a zone is excellent, I love the theme and the idea on randomizing the eq like SPOB does.

/Colje
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Postby Todrael » Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:40 pm

mynazzaraxxsyn wrote:
Dalar wrote:you were only downgraded if you wore easy to get gear. the obvious solution is to wear hard to get eq.

I have to say BULLSHIT to that, about the only gear that no one has said has been down graded is tiamat. All the hard zones and invasions have been downed.

Muspel invasion gear was upgraded. And Tiamat was far too easy for the gear she dropped.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:45 pm

Thilindel... some of us DID mention how much we like the zone. Savras does great work and a lot of us appreciate it. Don't be a negative nancer.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:32 pm

mynazzaraxxsyn wrote:
Dalar wrote:you were only downgraded if you wore easy to get gear. the obvious solution is to wear hard to get eq.


I have to say BULLSHIT to that, about the only gear that no one has said has been down graded is tiamat. All the hard zones and invasions have been downed.


good job flaming! there has been no official statement as to what is going to be done about tiamat eq or if they're going to grandfather the current items or not. muspelheim wasn't downed. ttf wasn't downed.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Malia » Thu Nov 20, 2003 5:09 pm

Nogs i still dont know where everyone is getting 1/4, since at least 5 heart items are seen 6 large items and 6 cracked items. Not sure on other classes since everyone quests the mage.

And i did post early on that the concept of the zone was great, the story line was cool, and the general layout was fun. Props to all involved.
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Postby thanuk » Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:07 pm

Savras wrote:I give up, you guys win.

When your hobby gives you more stress than your job, its time to find a new hobby.

Mmail me with stats that you think are appropriate, I'll scale them to fit.


poor Savras. Trying only leads to failure. The lesson is, never try.

Or you could just get some items in other zones upgraded to be better than some of the stuff from your zone, so people would stop complaining. If the SPoB eq wasn't better than BC robes and dragoncult, then 90% of this thread is gone. Just think about that before you destroy your whole zone.
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Postby Salen » Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:08 pm

You're right Wey, I misread Dartan... You used the term 'remove' no 'move', then he followed with 'take out'. My bad.

And for the record, driving hundreds of miles to kick Dartan in the ass isn't worth the gas money.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:19 pm

Salen wrote:You're right Wey, I misread Dartan... You used the term 'remove' no 'move', then he followed with 'take out'. My bad.

And for the record, driving hundreds of miles to kick Dartan in the ass isn't worth the gas money.

you mean bike right?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Vahok » Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:33 pm

Savras wrote:I give up, you guys win.

When your hobby gives you more stress than your job, its time to find a new hobby.

Mmail me with stats that you think are appropriate, I'll scale them to fit.


Savras, I think the real main beefs are pretty simple.

People are bitter that other long zones and long quests are not yielding the same level of eq.

People are bitter that the non heart items (see mostly the mage ones..mind you, those are the ones which get done more so...) are considered overpowered.

Personally, I'd just tell everyone to chill out and wait until the quest system gets looked at, and some zones (BC seems to be the major culprit) need some love.

Peace.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:54 pm

changing the stats on items doesn't really solve the problem we're complaining about, which is too much eq coming from one zone.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Pheten » Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:08 pm

Well actually it does, its just that in this case with the amount of equipment coming from the zone versus the amount of points the zone is worth I think if it was done correctly the equipment wouldnt be worth the effort, there in lies the problem in fixing this.
On a second note, honestly savras I've seen nothing but praise for the design of this zone from every single player that has gone there, that is a rare thing amoong the bitchy players in this game, including myself. It's just we feel the rewards need balanced, nothing against you. And if you think this means players don't appreciate the effort put forth in making said zone you are way off.

-phet
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Postby Dalar » Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:33 pm

ok, then if all the equipment becomes subpar then why do the zone? if only a couple items stay good then people are gonna complain about how they keep getting crappy items.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Pheten » Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:34 pm

Either change the zone to reflect the items or yank items until the ones left are worth the points put into the zone.
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Postby Vahok » Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:21 am

Dalar wrote:changing the stats on items doesn't really solve the problem we're complaining about, which is too much eq coming from one zone.


Sure it does. People are complaining that "players only do SPOB, you can outfit a whole set of eq from there". If make it less desirable to do the same zone 100x, then people will do other zones more the "perfect" set of eq.

But I'm still trying to figure why everyone thinks every single good piece of eq comes from SPOB. I can't comment on mages much, but since I'm a warrior, I will comment on that.

First off, I have the axe. It's pretty common knowledge on the goody side. Do I think it's overpowered? Tough one to call there, but take into account the fact it does not seem to have a critical hit proc or a standard combat proc. Still testing it, so not 100% sure on the proc period. It could rock, it could suck..I don't know. Are the dice nice on it? Yes they are. Does it really mean a rat's ass since melee kinda sucks? Oh yeah, fear my extra 10 damage I may do now...give it a rest.

The armor...is nice granted, but depends on your race doesn't it? Max con doesn't mean much to a barbarian warrior does it now? Sure, the prots on it are a nice touch, but in the grand scheme of things, big deal. We all have prots, possibly on multiple items, so do prots really carry that much wieght? The hps are nice, but again, many similar items have the same hps, and are easier to get.

Bottom line is this.. clerics think their items from SPOB are not worth the effort for the most part, as do warriors I think. So is this a case of mage or rogue eq being overpowered in SPOB? Are people just upset their quest eq doesn't stack up quite as well as some items in SPOB? We all do not have a full set of super elite SPOB eq. Many, many people have gone countless times, and possibly have one or two items. Some have items in the same slot as SPOB eq, and choose to wear something else. So to "punish" everyone because some people think there is an unbalance is ridiculous.

If there is a problem with some items, then look at those items only. If everyone thinks X robe from SPOb is "overpowered" compared to item Y from BC, then you really have 2 choices. Downgrade item X or upgrade item Y. But don't lump every piece of eq in one category from SPOB. Some SPOB items are good, some are bad. Can we really blame anyone from doing a very difficult zone for a chance at nice reward? Can we also blame anyone from doing an easy zone for also a nice item (see Brass and former amy ring)?

Another question...why does everyone put such a stock in questing as being the be-all and end-all of measuring eq? Cast locate object, or checking known locations for certain rares....sound difficult? It's figuring out the quest the first time is difficult imo. So, should we downgrade every item from the quest after the first quest is done?

Some have fun questing. Some have fun zoning. Some love the thrill of dice determining whether they have "wasted" 5 hours of their day. Some love puzzles and being the first to find something new. Some like quests because of the end result they know (give items xyz to mob A, and get item B).

SPOB may need some changes, maybe not. I'm sure people will find other zones and other items to bitch about in time. I'm sure we can all remember a time when a piece of eq was "overpowered"...is that same piece from the past still "overpowered"?

NOTE: this is not to anyone is specific, nor is it intended to flame anyone or their style of playing, thoughts, or work as an admin.
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Postby Dizzin » Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:58 am

Heh, compare your axe to other 1-handers. It's far and away the best warrior 1-hander in the game. Sure it only gives you an extra 10 damage per hit or whatever, but like you did later in your post, you have to compare that item with others all over. And your axe blows anything else away. Even weapons from epic quests. Your fugging axe has better dice than Forka's Sword. And that's a 2hander! Strictly speaking, that aint right! Though that's more b/c 2handers got fugged over for... reasons unknown.

Regardless of what happens to spob, BC should be upgraded properly, I dont think anyone's arguing that.

And I'll repeat it, Dartan's right (*shudder* I feel all dirty :( ), half the items from SPOB should be moved or removed. There's just too much eq in that one single zone.
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Postby Aldavien » Fri Nov 21, 2003 2:14 am

I see all this talk of how you can get a full set of gear from these zones. Could someone mabye post what a full set of mage/fighter/cleric/warrior eq would look like? Just because you're wearing 15 slots of SPOB gear doesn't mean half of them aren't garbage.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Nov 21, 2003 2:33 am

i think out of all the spob mage gear, I would wear the gloves/choker/mask/shroud/robe/belt/hood/slippers for pure stats if i wasn't using my tiamat eq. then i would wear eyeball earrings/fiery tattoo/defense bracers/seelie bands/basilisk leggings/orbs of power/starsilver sleeves
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Postby Vahok » Fri Nov 21, 2003 2:58 am

Far and away the best 1 hander. Hands down! Oh wait, no "regular" combat proc...I'd be willing to wager some wielding say, an icy dagger will do just as much damage (if not more) in the long run. Not arguing it is a nice 1h weapon, just that 3d6+2dam (max 20 dam a round) with a combat proc isn't too far off a weapon that is 4d6 +4dam (max 28 dam a round). And 110% agree, 2 handed weapons got the shaft. It's not like I wouldn't like some of mine restored to their former glory. But do not blame one weapon for the fact a whole set of weapons got nuked.

And, a full set of SPOB mage gear is (or can be) elite. A full set of SPOB warrior, rogue, and cleric gear is not. And if above mage wants to do SPOB 40x plus to get the full set of nice gear, I say let them! That is over 120+ hours of playing (and no spanks, crashes, repeat loads,etc.) With 120+ hours of playing in any zones, whether it be SPOB, clouds, Jot, or whatever, you gonna have some nice eq anyways. So the "too much" good eq from one zone point is moot. You do the time, you get the rewards.

And if the mage gear seems to be the major problem....
Meatshield
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Postby Waelos » Fri Nov 21, 2003 3:04 am

Downgrade Split Shield!

OMFG! I just realized that you can get. . .helms, bracers, jackets, cloaks, boots, leggings sleeves AND weapons from that zone! CHRSTMASTIME!

;)

You can't get a real full set of eq from any zone. . . not even SPOB. Sure, you could wear a ton of slots (cracked, large, heart) but most of those slots are going to be sub-par to eq available elsewhere. As I think I demonstrated earlier . . .even the 'top tier' eq from SpoB (for warriors, anyway) doesn't give 'the best' for a slot in all cases. depends on your needs.

=)

Lost
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Postby Dalar » Fri Nov 21, 2003 3:08 am

i'd say for the melee spob is not your place to go. for int casters almost half is in spob with great runner-ups. i haven't seen all the cleric items yet
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Mage Items

Postby Klandal » Fri Nov 21, 2003 3:09 am

Not giving stats but here's an SPOB mage.

head: an enshrouding hood of crimson velvet
eyes: a monocle of stained crimson silver
ears: a loop of stained crimson silver
face: a translucent mask of olive tourmaline
neck: a blackened iron choker with a crimson clasp
on body: a robe of rune hemmed crimson velvet
about body: a shroud of glossy crimson velvet
quiver: omg there isn't a quiver item! :P
waist: a braided belt of crimson velvet
arms: a pair of silver linked olive tourmaline sleeves
wrist: a matte black bracer inset with an olive tourmaline
hands: a pair of matte black cloth gloves
fingers: a ring of roughly cut olive tourmaline
wield: a slender mithril mageblade with a throbbing sigil
held: a perfect sphere of stained crimson silver
legs: a pair of matte black cloth leggings
feet: a pair of tasselled crimson velvet slippers

Those are the 16 mage items I personally have been there to see rewarded. Is it possible to outfit each class fully with SPOB gear? Yes, without quiver, of course.

The problem lies here. What drawback is there to only doing SPOB and wearing a full set of mage gear? Extremely little. Every slot, including the lowest rewards, rivals the top gear in the game, most surpassing. The only item I couldn't see any mage actually wearing would be the held sphere (heh).

Is this true for every class? No. Looking at all the cleric rewards there are 3 items I would even wear (2 from heart, 1-2 from large gem). Despite this fact, the 3 or 4 items are incredibly good. I have a nearly finished cleric set imho and 3-4 of the _best_ items would come from SPOB, more than even Tia items for my class. I think people might view a semblance of balance if this were true for all classes, but the fact that you CAN fully equip every single class from one zone upsets people.

On the upside, I, as most it seems, love the idea and implementation of this zone. There simply are just too many rewards, not just that several are the ultimate item for each class. I'm not going to say this zone is a cakewalk compared to other zones in the game, however. There are only a select few zones that are harder whose rewards we know aren't par with the challenge. Those who say this zone is one that n00bs can do would be able to say the same about nearly any other zone in the game at the moment.

That being said there should be _some_ top items from this zone, just not the multitude there are. If the zone weren't put in yet I'd say cut the total items available in half. Yes, half. But since it's already been in and most items have been seen it's hard to say how it should be dealt with. Since a relatively low number of items have made it into the game, I could see substituting a number of the items for seals or moving existing gear to other zones in a form.

Honestly, I think the problem is clear. The hard part is dealing with it now that we know about it.
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Postby old depok » Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:49 pm

So the issue is the mage gear. Balance the mage gear.

My main is a shaman and I wouldn't use the heart on the cleric gear now. I got lucky and won the boots but felt like it was a huge risk. I would rather use the heart on the mage gear even though I have a level 50 shaman and 47 rogue. My highest caster is a level 28 necro. Tells you that the issue is the mage gear.

So if the mage gear is the issue address the issue not the entire zone.

Sarvas - SPOB is far and away my favorite zone. I love the fact that it is a test of player skill and not of player equipment. I love that getting eq off the mobs with crap stats is a godsend. I love the feeling of being on tiptoes in the zone because if you are not careful your entire group is dead. The rewards have been and still are in my opinion, worthy of such a great zone. Keep up the good work and keep in mind that it is easy to nit pick something, harder to make it in the first place.
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Nov 21, 2003 3:00 pm

I think SPOB could even keep all the equipment it has and get away with it, if there weren't so many top tier pieces in it. If you make the rewards a little more questionable, then people will bitch, but it would still even out. Sometimes people could walk out with crap, sometimes they could walk out with the best gear in the game. It just doesn't need to be such an abundant source of so many high end pieces. Heck, even designate one item, maybe two at the most, from each kit as the best item, then restat the rest of the heart items to the next level below and take them out of the heart pool.
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Postby belleshel » Fri Nov 21, 2003 4:16 pm

1 or 2 heart items per class at max will fix SPOB.
Thank you drive throu.
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Postby belleshel » Fri Nov 21, 2003 4:25 pm

Waelos wrote:
Earring: +2 +2 prot gas


Armor: ac 30 pff pfc 5max con 36 hps


Amulet: AC 8(?) 3dam -3save spell


Axe: 6d4 +4 +4 proc something


Lost.


For most of the hitters in the game those are actually the best items in any 'normal' zone. Which means SPOB dominates at least 6 slots, which is way too much, no zone comes remotely close to that, removing 2 of these and putting them somewhere else (BC with minor upgrade) would be good. Max 1-2 items from Hearts. Awesome zone, just too many top rewards per class.
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Postby kiryan » Fri Nov 21, 2003 8:47 pm

armor is a matter of taste even though its a awesome item.

it has no hit/dam so some warriors who style themselves as hitters might prefer 3 dam or 1/2 instead of what is clearly a more powerful item.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:43 pm

There is no disputing the facts. Period.
SPOB, by far, has the most "uber" rewards of ANY zone in the game.
This is a zone, that, if played right, will yield few or no deaths. The only potential loss is exp. NO EQUIPMENT RISK. no need for prots, etc.

Belleshel has it almost right by downing the number of heart items. But lowering the stats of the "large" gem and "cracked" gem items somewhat would be worthwhile. Granted they would be "token" items for any 50 that goes to the zone and gets a cracked item. But most people seem to get eq for their alts these days anyway. Not that it should, nor is it, an excuse... but removing the "cracked" gems alltogether wouldn't be such a bad idea either imho.

Bottom line, there are too many items that come from that one zone that do rock. Yes, most of them are mage items. But for the hitters there are definately rewards that FAR surpass anything else out there for the slot.
The armor specifically is more ac than anything else, the only armor with two prots that isn't wholebody that i can think of, and +about 40% more hp than anything else that offers hp, WITHOUT considering the maxcon which usually comes from a different slot. The earrings are buff hitter items, etc. Overall, this zone needs to be looked at a bit more closely.

There is no arguing that.

So i guess, all in all, agree with Dartan 10000% *shudder*
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Postby Mitharx » Sun Nov 23, 2003 9:38 am

Just to throw some clarity on this post (mostly for Savras if he does now feel compelled to change stats), let's established that not all items from spob are overpowered and this includes mage items. I don't want the items that got dg'ed even more dg'ed because people feel they're too strong. Personally, I feel that the items I have are not too strong for the effort they take.

Note: I didn't see myself wearing any examples of the eq mentioned above, but the blanket statement "MAGE EQ FROM SPOB IS TOO POWERFUL!" would cause a dg disaster for myself and some others.

Example, don't make my slightly better than eldritch ring, but much harder to get or my slightly better than demi belt, but much harder to get any worse on the account that some certain items are causing people to say that a large majority of it is over balanced.

Another question: I like the idea of moving the eq around (maybe changign the ansi to fit the text), but then I would have to ask if you eithre have to beef up the zone that it comes from or change the stats to make it useless. In the second case some people will once again be needlessly dg'ed. This is problematic.

On another note, Vahok's axe. Why do people care about a powerful warrior axe or really any piece of eq that makes warriors hit harder? The argument seems to be that other pieces of harder to get eq don't have those stats, but it's for warriors. I mean, warriors. Warriors who have numerous "We Suck" or "We don't do damage" or "Upgrade Warrior" posts attached to their names. Warriors are a great and necessary part of teh game, but I really seriously doubt that giving them high dice on weapons mattered. Farther down the Object Changes list there are several posts that point to this yet this post points to how powerful the warrior items are. I would argue that you could leave the items the way they are and upgrade the harder to get items hit/dam or hps. Warriors need the eq. Let's not make them weaker because one zone contains some really good items.

Amendment to this last point: Yes Belleshel, I know you weren't really hit hard by changes and I know there are a few other warriors (warrior types) who feel the same way. But this is only a few. Having really nice eq or the ability to switch eq around doesn't make you part of the mass mud majority. It makes you party of the lucky minority.
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Postby Dalar » Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:31 pm

You guys are all forgetting the fact that you haven't seen every single heart silver and copper item. We all know mage spob is broken because we know every single item. Also, the we are complaining about the axe because it dwarves every 1her in comparison. Hell it makes many 2hers look weak too.

And for the 20th time. THE ITEMS ARE WORTH THE REWARD, BUT THE AMOUNT OF ITEMS ISN'T. IE YOU SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO GET EQUIPMENT WORTH A TON OF POINTS FOR _5-6_ FOR EVERY CLASS DIFFERENT ITEMS.

And Mitharx, Belleshel and a few others weren't hit because they wear equipment that is hard to get. Most of the MUD wears crappy eq and it's very easy to distinguish who wears crappy eq (people who whine about eq changes and how they're going to quit/suicide because of it). For those people, quit whining and get some better eq jeez.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Vahok » Sun Nov 23, 2003 4:31 pm

Man, I grow tired of defending my axe. It DOES NOT dwarf every 1h weapon in the game. Add the damage up people. I'm warrior, and melee is crap for me as is, and it has no combat proc. It is not the axe's fault 2h weapons got butchered. Plus the fact, we have seen one in what, eight months? So if anyone wants to point a finger, I've got one I'm pointing right now...
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Postby Dalar » Sun Nov 23, 2003 4:48 pm

it's b/c warriors don't win
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Pheten » Sun Nov 23, 2003 5:47 pm

Dalar wrote:

And for the 20th time. THE ITEMS ARE WORTH THE REWARD, BUT THE AMOUNT OF ITEMS ISN'T. IE YOU SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO GET EQUIPMENT WORTH A TON OF POINTS FOR _5-6_ FOR EVERY CLASS DIFFERENT ITEMS.




Maybe we should quote this 10 times until people get the point.
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Postby Dlur » Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:40 pm

Pheten wrote:
Dalar wrote:

And for the 20th time. THE ITEMS ARE WORTH THE REWARD, BUT THE AMOUNT OF ITEMS ISN'T. IE YOU SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO GET EQUIPMENT WORTH A TON OF POINTS FOR _5-6_ FOR EVERY CLASS DIFFERENT ITEMS.




Maybe we should quote this 10 times until people get the point.


It's definately true. Dalar is 100% correct on this item of game balance.
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Postby Todrael » Sun Nov 23, 2003 8:17 pm

I'm still trying to figure out how having a pool to draw from has absolutely no effect on the point values that can be assigned, whether it's 2 items or 100.
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Postby Mitharx » Mon Nov 24, 2003 6:31 am

Dalar, pheten, anyone else who wants to mirror this exact statement that I never disagreed with, I repeat my question: how do you fix it without nerfing eq people already put the effort forth for?

Putting things in Caps and repeating yourself doesn't address the issue that moving this eq to differenet zones doesn't fix the problem because most zones aren't this challenging. Yes, this is not the hardest, longest deathfest ever, but compared to the large majority of other zones people do (and there is little point in comparing to the amount of zones that people don't really ever do) it is more difficult.

Belleshel has great eq. Thank you so much for pointing out the obvious. I don't deny that he does. I don't deny that several other people do as well. That wasn't my point. The point is that warriors suck and really don't do any damage. The problem with fixing this purely on a skills basis is it usually leads to a situation where a warrior can do to much on his own or where a warrior defends and hits harder, but still gets drained for tons of damage. At no point will the warrior be able to do tons of damage while wearing really good tanking eq (and arguably while wearing hitting eq). So who cares if warriors get the damage?

BECAUSE TOO MANY GOOD ITEMS COME FROM THAT ZONE!!!

Well, items are only too powerful or really good if they have any real effect on the game. Since warriors really don't see to do much damage regardless of what they stack themselves with, the extra dam probably isn't gonna throw the game out of whack. This mirrors statements on other posts below. If people bitch that their awesome eq isn't as uber now, up theirs as well.
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Postby Dizzin » Mon Nov 24, 2003 6:46 am

*roll*

I love Mitharx's arguements.

Since Rangers dont do anything useful in game, let's give them a bow that's +50/50 and procs inferno!

Maybe fix the class AND the equipment?

And Vahok, name 1 other 1handed weapon that's 6d4 4/4, or even 4/4 and no dice? Or even 6d4 0/0? There isn't one. Not even from epic quests like muspel and Oakvale. And I do think that other weapons should get upgraded to be on par with your axe, but as it stands, your axe DOES blow any other 1hander out of the water.
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Postby Waelos » Mon Nov 24, 2003 6:51 am

axe is 4d6 btw. . .

Crystal sword from Oakvale is 3d7 +4 +3. . .

so thats close.

Next closest I guess would be Surtur Scimitar at 4d4 +4 +2 pfg/pfe, etc.

Windsong is 3d4 +4 +3

so there is stuff that is close. . . I dunno what proc does on SpOB axe so dunno if its worth it or not.

Alot of warriors wield ebony despite the fact it sucks other than the proc. ..

so having huge dice and a crappy proc might not mean jack (hence why I dont use crystal sword)

Lost.
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Postby Mitharx » Mon Nov 24, 2003 6:59 am

I was gonna start this out flaming, but let's not. Dizzin, I really believe you can make an argument that will convince me, and anyone else having trouble believing it, that damage stuff was making the mud too powerful. That melee wasn't being called into question.

Further, I like your examples of extreme. Funny how any argument when taken to extreme can be exceptionally poor. Unfortunately examing that side of the argument doesn't get us anywhere near what the argument is actually about.

I never said make all hitters/warrior types 50/50. The prevailing argument would be that all eq taken from spob for warriors would make hitters 50/50. I really don't believe that is so, but that's okay. All I argue is that from a descently challenging zone should give out descent rewards, especially if the class getting that reward is known for not really being very powerful or overly useful. This is not an argument to upgrade all eq from all zones. It's to keep most of the stats for a challenging zone and up the ones a bit on the exceptionally hard to get eq. If some of this exceptionally hard to get eq is no longer in the game, then don't penalize players for not being able to get it.

I'm open minded here. I've given in from the don't change SPOB at all argument, but I also haven't heard anything compelling. I do think the amount of eq needs to be downed some, but I wonder how you do it without nerfing people who really didn't deserve it. The argument from Dalar above was "Quit your whining and get better eq" I did, please don't nerf it now.

So why is it wrong for descent dam eq to be given to warrior types from a descently difficult zone? Considered the dg's of other zones, it seems that 50/50 with descent saves/hps would be fairly difficult to get for most anyway.

Keeping the *rolls* and the caps out. Just talk.

Lastly: Let's fix melee classes. Seems easier to fix the eq at this point. and then perhaps change it in the future if a class is deamed too powerful. I like the idea, but how to do this and achieve balance seems very difficult. I've played some funky muds where warriors can do way too much (like solo dragons given time).

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