Downgrade SPOB

A forum for discussion of the object changes...one thread per item please. Read the first post!

Downgrade SPOB

Yes
36
62%
No
22
38%
 
Total votes: 58
Yasden
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Postby Yasden » Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:11 pm

My only gripe with SPoB is that the only decent warrior items for high level warriors are the heart items. Just my opinion, as I've won both a large and a cracked and I don't see a personal need for a 2hit 10hps mask or a 3hit 13str slowpoison belt. Maybe rangers could use all that hitroll but with the sweeping eq downgrades most warriors are now looking for +dam/+hps and prots. Just something you might take into consideration Savras. I enjoy the zone simply for its concept. :)
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Postby Waelos » Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:17 pm

This may sound a bit self serving. . . but you really should leave the warrior items alone.

Why?

Well, really there are only ever 3 warrior/warrior types that go to the zone. It is so caster dependent that more casters win the heart, thus making warrior items more rare.

Then again, I guess casters can just get warrior items if they really want to. . .


I dunno!
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Postby Branthur » Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:20 pm

Once again Gura...exactly what equipment from there are we talking about?

as the changes sit right now, I don't see anything overpowered from there. Some nice things, yes. The zone is definately worth doing. But there is nothing that "throws the game out of balance".

Just seems to me that most people that are complaining about spob are still going off of pre-eq change stats. I could be wrong..I hardly know all of the stats there. But if you can't give out a few facts as to what we're talking about, well...I'll just edit myself for flame bait right now.

Once again, spob is fine.
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Postby Gura » Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:39 pm

tell ya what. ill wait until the quest revisions are done before i knock your zone anymore but ill say this and agree with wey that the warrior items are too rare. the armor % or whatever makes ur quest system work for the zone is too high.
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Postby Malia » Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:21 pm

Hrmm, i dont think spob is out of wack, i think the dificulty is good how it is. I think most of the eq is even balanced. There is 1 heart item per trip, like any other zone there is 1 good item that comes from doing that zone. Becuase that happens to be random means that you will have to do the zone ALOT more to get the item your looking for. Zone has been in how long now and we just now saw this axe? (little over powered for being a 1-hander imo) thats fine. It will prolly be that much longer till we see another. I think some of the mage items are still out of wack and some of the other classes gold items could be touched up a bit, but no reason to yank eq.

I think the zone storyline and layout and dificulty are great. I think it is a great concept. Some downfalls i see are 1) it all comes down to luck. 2)rewards are better then the epic quest gear we have now.

Im not sure how to fix #1, I for one prefer to rely on skills and abiltiy for zoning thats why i like quests. Its something you can work on for your reward. In spob first you gotta be lucky enough to win a piece after 3-5 hours of zoning (like any zone) and then you gotta hope the luck gods are still with you when you hand in your item that your not given some piece of junk that you store in your bag.
#2 will be fixed when the quest points are fixed so hold all comparisons of quest eq till then.

Overall i think this zone is nicely done, just needs some tweaking of some key items.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:45 pm

the eq is somewhat balanced in the sense that the stats are worth the risk, but the different amount of items you can get is unbalanced for doing the exact same thing. the mud has always been doing zone X for the best item in slot Y. now it's basicaly do spob as many times as you can to get the best items in half your slots.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby kiryan » Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:07 pm

on body PFF PFC AC 30 36 hps 5 maxcon

That is unbelievable. I think you should throw pfa and 20 ac on it and load it on tiamat. Thats 86 hps in one slot for several class/race combos.

I haven't done it since the latest change, so I don't want to say it still needs a downgrade, but if its still a 3 hour 10 death zone it needs to be hit with a nerf missile.

At a minimum though, you guys need to look at what you are allowing to happen. How the hell are we making room for new zones when the best eq in the game for every slot comes from 2 zones (spob and musphelim)? I'd limit zones to one piece of top slot eq per 4 basic classes per zone.

One more gripe... 5 maxint necks? whats the maxint max now 45.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby thanuk » Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:17 pm

Ok here's a question for you...

If SPoB, even though yielding top slot eq for multiple classes on multiple slots for each class, is considered balanced, because the eq that loads is random, then how come eq from clouds that loads randomly all got nerfed to shit? If the fact that you only get 1 of the many items each time makes the stuff worth more, then how come my ruby dragonscale earring is worse than a jot skull earring?

If SPoB is balanced, then the eq from clouds that are 1/3rd of the time items need serious upgrades.
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:25 pm

Dalar wrote:the eq is somewhat balanced in the sense that the stats are worth the risk, but the different amount of items you can get is unbalanced for doing the exact same thing. the mud has always been doing zone X for the best item in slot Y. now it's basicaly do spob as many times as you can to get the best items in half your slots.


I'm in full agreement with Dartan on this. I loved SPOB when I got to go, since it's challenging and unusual. The only issue with it that I have is that you could conceivably go back enough times to wear almost a full set of gear from one zone. Having so many options available discourages the need to go to other zones in order to improve your set. It's not that the zone's bad, or the code's bad, or the design is bad... it's one of the few times in the mud where you can actually point and say 'that's too much of a good thing.' The zone breeds the desire to go back, which is a good thing, but because there's so much good equipment available as rewards, it takes away the necessity for variety, because anything else you could pick up would only be a stop-gap measure until you can get to SPOB again.
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Postby belleshel » Mon Nov 17, 2003 9:22 pm

kiryan wrote: I'd limit zones to one piece of top slot eq per 4 basic classes per zone.


I love SPOB, probably the best new zone in many many years. kiryan has the right idea, no zone should have more than 1 items per class that are considered 'tops'. And a zone this easy shouldn't have items better than epic quests.
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Postby Gormal » Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:15 pm

Ashiwi wrote:I'm in full agreement with Dartan on this.



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Postby Salen » Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:22 pm

Just a thought... How many people in the first week or two that SPOB was open said, 'Holy CRAP, there is too many good pieces, they need to be limited'?

If it has taken this long to change it, I feel like some consession should be made to those who did it from open till now. We told you it was a problem from the get-go, and just now it's being considered. In 1/2 dozen changes, never was the number of possible outcomes limited.

Also, I didn't realize it was sanctified, so thus I didn't know we could desecrate it. It sounds to me like you take it personal that there is something wrong with it, and are looking for a way to punish people for speaking about it.

Edited my own comments, just leaving it at that. It obviously means a hell of a lot more to you than me, so I'll stop.
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Postby Vahok » Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:42 pm

*whimpers holding his toy*
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Postby Kossuth » Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:45 pm

Vahok wrote:*whimpers holding his toy*


Isn't that what Thanuk does pretty much the entire time he's online?
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Postby Vahok » Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:49 pm

Kossuth wrote:
Vahok wrote:*whimpers holding his toy*


Isn't that what Thanuk does pretty much the entire time he's online?


Yes, Thanuk does spend his entire time online holding my toy.
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Postby Sesexe » Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:54 pm

thanuk wrote:Ok here's a question for you...

If SPoB, even though yielding top slot eq for multiple classes on multiple slots for each class, is considered balanced, because the eq that loads is random, then how come eq from clouds that loads randomly all got nerfed to shit? If the fact that you only get 1 of the many items each time makes the stuff worth more, then how come my ruby dragonscale earring is worse than a jot skull earring?

If SPoB is balanced, then the eq from clouds that are 1/3rd of the time items need serious upgrades.


Amen to that!

Clouds eq did NOT deserve such harsh downages. The items were just little ticks better then others that were way easier to get, yet this place gets hit so hard?

Just does not make sense.
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Postby Kossuth » Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:54 pm

Vahok wrote:
Kossuth wrote:
Vahok wrote:*whimpers holding his toy*


Isn't that what Thanuk does pretty much the entire time he's online?


Yes, Thanuk does spend his entire time online holding my toy.


I'm afraid to ask about the whimpering....
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Postby Vahok » Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:57 pm

Kossuth wrote:
Vahok wrote:
Kossuth wrote:
Vahok wrote:*whimpers holding his toy*


Isn't that what Thanuk does pretty much the entire time he's online?


Yes, Thanuk does spend his entire time online holding my toy.


I'm afraid to ask about the whimpering....


WHAT?!?! You think I like it? You're sick Kossuth. A sick, sick man.
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Postby Pheten » Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:09 pm

You guys are missing the point. I don't care how hard it is, I don't care if you have to fight a mob at the end of the zone that is just as hard as Tiamat. And I don't care if the equipment handouts are random - The fact that the loot table for the zone consists of so much *potential* good loot is the problem here. Christ, even Tiamat only has so many pieces, badass as they are thats all your ever gonna get, your not gonna get 3/4 to 1/2 of your full equipment set from her zone.

I'm not trying to rag on the maker of this zone I'm just pointing out the fact that no matter how balanced the equipment versus risk aspect of this zone is its breaking the mud.

Like I said before, the mud needs a healthy spread of equipment. When you get 1-2 zones (musp, spob) that a huge percent of the best items come from it takes away from everything else on the whole and leaves very little reason to eventually even bother setting foot in the other zones.

That is all

-phet
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Postby Waelos » Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:16 pm

Well, I can't comment on all the other class items but lets look at the warrior items. I honestly don't think that every warrior item is 'best for each respective slot in game'. That is really relative.


Earring: +2 +2 prot gas
Evaluation: Damn good earring. Perfect for warriors, some rangers, many rogues. But, with there being 3dam earrings out there and earrings that offer hps and dam, and other combinations, this earring (IMHO) is the 'best' for certain players. . .not for any complete class.

Armor: ac 30 pff pfc 5max con 36 hps
Evaluation: Extremely useful for human and grey elven warrior types. Glorified Pmail of life for dwarf and barb warriors. Most antis and paladins go for more damage eq and wasting a slot on a few hps (for them just 36) isn't usually worth it. For rangers and paladins there is Kern armor which is 2hit 5MAX con. . . again, the 36 hps really doesnt make that much of a difference. It is a very nice item, but not the best slot for all classes/races in all situations.

Amulet: AC 8(?) 3dam -3save spell
Awesome amulet. There is something simliar available in Orc hall. . . but its one dam less. Certainly there is other neckware that is as good, better, or fulfills better needs atm. 3dam 9agil ac5 neckwear, even 1 2 farsee is pretty nice for hitters.

Axe: 6d4 +4 +4 proc something
By far the best available 1h weapon dice/adds wise in game outside of a tiamat weapon. Not sure about the proc. there could be weapons that are better just because of the proc. Crystal sword from oakvale is 3d7 +4 +2 with perm levitate, prot evil, det evil and two damage procs (one that can blind). So, depending on the proc, these are fairly equal.

So, while the items are all top shelf, I don't think it can be said that each of them is absolute best for every warrior/ranger/paladin/antipaladin in the game.

Does someone with great familiarity with mage/cleric/rogue eq have some similar insights either way? Please share!

Lost.
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Postby Pheten » Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:23 pm

Gonna have to disagree again here wae, while those 4 items may not be the very best end all loot from any zone in the game sit back and look at them. They are the top tier anyone is going to get, very badass Items. Where in another zone on the entire loot table there may be one or two items that brush near them or maybe just edge past them. But we are talking a combination of quality AND quantity here.
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Postby rylan » Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:30 pm

What I've seen of the cleric eq it wasn't that spectactular, and the couple sweet things got hit with the dg stick already.

And can any of you guys count? Now we're up to some people saying 3/4 of your best eq will come from spob. Gimmie a break.

So the zone has a few really good items for some classes. If you invest the time and effort in doing the zone over and over whats wrong with having some nice eq. And you can't have it both ways... if you want the zone downgraded, the eq that you got is going to get wacked or poofed also.. tough luck.
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Postby Dizzin » Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:49 pm

I've heard of several goodie clerics wearing only spob eq. Some mostly just TO wear all spob eq I'm sure, but still, that's TOO much eq from 1 zone.

And Waelos, You DONT see a problem with that axe being obviously superior to your epic longass quest sword in almost every way?!

I'm going to comment on some mage items that just aren't right.

1. The gold mage robe: 38 hp 2MR pfg pfl. Before the changes they were about as good as dscale robes. After the changes they're superior. That's wrong.

2. The gold mage about: 27hp 5maxint sl pff pfc pfa. It's better than BC cloak. Arguably better than another Longass, painful quest about body item. Though honestly I think that speaks more to upgrading those.

3. Cracked mage gloves: ac8 15 hp -3sv_bre. That's STILL nearly the equal of reflective gloves and even fingerless which come from musp invasion and we all know about THAT. And this is from the lowest tier!

That's just a sample.

And Savras, Salen is right. We were telling you WAY back when SPOB first came out that the eq was messed and it was too easy. But you wouldn't listen. So goodies went out and basically did what I would have done if the evil population hadn't been all of about 5 all summer, do a wussass zone every boot for huge rewards. And after evils do it REPEATEDLY in under 3 hours with minimal deaths, you decide oh, I'm going to now UPGRADE the zone to be a deathtrap, rather than admitting the zone isn't going to ever be worth having enough eq to fill every slot on every player on the MUD.

And then you get upset because we attack your zone, take it as a personal affront, and threaten to remove half the already gotten equipment from the game forever? For shame.
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Postby Waelos » Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:58 pm

Pheten, you can say that of many zones. . .

For example:

Jot Invasion: Best hat/hats for warrior. Best belt for many warriors/paladins / Twilight

Thats 3-4 topshelf warrior items (or were/will be when things are balanced)

Seelie: One of the best belts in the game, two of the best cloaks in game for hitter/tanks. Best bard weapon, etc.

Musp: Best boots in game, best handware in game, some of the best legwear, wrist wear, etc.

Smoke invasion: 1 each of some of the best eq for each class

Clouds: Lots of great caster eq/etc.

ANyway, I think you see the trend I'm going for here. The only difference with Spob is that it has the chance to load different _good_ items each time you do it. Its like doing Jot invasion knowing only either surtur or warlord, or amey belt, or ring, or twilight will load.

I definately think there needs to be some balance struck .. . but the zone is pretty good atm. See my other ideas for some balance . . . previously in this thread =)

Lost
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Postby Dezzex » Tue Nov 18, 2003 12:51 am

Well it's hard for me to argue the point now because I don't know many of the post-changes eq stats, but there are still a few pieces out of whack, namely some of the mage gear. Consider just the combination of wearing the gold body/about mage gear... they complement eachother so well that by those 2 pieces alone I'd have top-notch hps in those positions, prot-all, sense-life, 5 maxint and 2 MR. Only thing missing is saves, but good thing I can just use the other rewards to cover that!

Point is (already made by others above) is that the set of gear given out is ideal for too many positions, especially in combination. Another problem is that unless there ARE a suitable number of desired pieces, few are gonna bother doing SPOB because who wants to do the zone 10 times just for a chance to get the one worthwhile item?

So here's my solutions.

How bout if the eq on a single tier (copper, silver, gold) had stats altered to be similar to other eq on that level.. At least then, they wouldnt all be desirable because they would simply compound the same strengths and enforce the same weakness. The result is not many will even choose to wear all-heart eq, because who wants, say, +65 str eq, or 5 pieces of redundant sense-life. I'm sure it was fun to make loads of awesome gear but as we have seen that generates some issues.

The other issue I have is the location of SPOB.. now I know there's the story about the dryads disappearing and all that, but personally I'd much prefer the portal was stuck somewhere dangerous, or at least somewhere with atmosphere, rather than in the middle of a forest road in a dryad's tree. If the SPOB story was altered accordingly, the portal could be placed somewhere more difficult to reach. Suitably placed, this addresses the no-risk factor many people bring up. On the other hand, there will be no running back to avoid ress -- however I believe ress should be addressed by itself. Besides, ressfx can be handily limited code-wise inside SPOB because of its "magical nature". Furthermore, moving it from a dryad house just makes the zone cooler. :)

And to Savras, I hope the criticism is not too bothering ... I'm sure everyone thinks the zone itself is great, unfortunately equipment is a prominent issue in Toril. (duh)
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Postby Dalar » Tue Nov 18, 2003 12:58 am

what's your point wey? those are zones with 1 maybe 2 great items. spob has 6+. after eq downgrades, the gap is even worse.

i don't agree with your idea dezz. the game is still spitting out way too many items for just one zone
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Postby belleshel » Tue Nov 18, 2003 1:40 am

Waelos wrote:Pheten, you can say that of many zones. . .

For example:

Jot Invasion: Best hat/hats for warrior. Best belt for many warriors/paladins / Twilight

Thats 3-4 topshelf warrior items (or were/will be when things are balanced)

Seelie: One of the best belts in the game, two of the best cloaks in game for hitter/tanks. Best bard weapon, etc.

Musp: Best boots in game, best handware in game, some of the best legwear, wrist wear, etc.

Smoke invasion: 1 each of some of the best eq for each class

Clouds: Lots of great caster eq/etc.

Lost



For the most part you are talking about invasions/rares, you can't compare that to a zone you can do EVERY boot.
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Postby Waelos » Tue Nov 18, 2003 2:33 am

True. But I think the commonality of some of the items is similar. Only one really good item loads in SPoB at a time. . . Maybe I should change that statment. Only one really good item SHOULD load in SPoB at one time. Heart items should stay realtively the same. . .but the strength of the lower level items for most classes should shift some, and be lessened in variety.

In the end, if SpOB left, I'd still be able to be +21 +62. Not sure if that indicates anything. If SpOB eq was eliminated, how would that affect your character? (anyone can answer here) Would you be able to find adequate replacements fairly easily? I think that it would be likely. . .at least for most classes.

Noone really made any comments on my ideas to make SpoB more of a risk to warrant the rewards. . . were they that bad?

If there was a chance to lose your eq like in other zones, would that warrant the items?

Just some more questions =)

Lost
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Postby Thilindel » Tue Nov 18, 2003 2:46 am

Three large gems. Three worthless mageblades. I'm just utterly sick of seeing these 'downgrade SPOB' posts. What bothers me is for the ones who think there is too much to win, being variety, there's also the nasty cloud of winning the same f'g worthless thing over again :P

The zone is fun, hard, and points out the worthless afk'ers. I've been in groups that have done it in about 3 hrs. Also, I've been victim to runs that took almost 9 hours. Leave the eq alone, please!
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Postby Todrael » Tue Nov 18, 2003 3:10 am

I don't think evils have ever taken over 5 hours. At least not to my knowledge. Every time I was there, it took 3-4. I bagged my dscale robes so I could wear the mage spob robe. It's actually kind of nice to have something in my bag to loan to snakes that need pff for brass or something. If I had the cloak, I'd bag my BC cloak to wear that, too.
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Postby Dizzin » Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:20 am

Since when does having a group of incompetent AFK'ers have ANY bearing on how good the eq from there should be?
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Postby Thilindel » Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:52 am

imho, SPOB is nothing more than the final fight. I haven't been since stat changes. So, prior to changes, the final fight, whether Larim or whoever leading, can be hideous if vokers get smacked down upon entry. Seelie has taken evils all night on one run I saw. It can happen to anybody 8(
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Postby Todrael » Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:56 am

Seelie is a different zone. And that's because it crashed with 5 equipped corpses like 2 rooms from the final fight.
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Postby kiryan » Tue Nov 18, 2003 5:28 am

I agree with dartan, too many pieces of great eq from one zone, even if it takes you 50 trips, you shouldn't be able to get a great set of eq from one zone. This is exactly counterproductive to one of the goals of the eq downgrade which was to make room for new zones.

Also, all those duplicate pieces you get, those 3 mageblades end up going somewhere.

A few things you could do address this without changing the zone is ensure that the zone won't get done too often. Perhaps making SPOB corpses revive only or putting it in avernus would detract significantly from the frequency in which it gets done.

I know thats hard because what designer wants to put in a zone that gets done very infrequently, but that certainly doesn't mean its not a great zone. Bronze Citadel is one of my favorite zones, just not worth doing. The SPOB rewards do imo. however you might want to ensure you get one good piece for every heart personally i thought some of the gold cleric and rogue rewards are gay.
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Postby Dizzin » Tue Nov 18, 2003 5:59 am

Dont understand why you goodies hate that final fight. It's easy. Just takes a bit of time. Even then it doesn't take THAT long. I find the Loki invasion fight to be significantly worse. And even that isn't a big threat.

The only dangerous fight in spob, (pre-changes) was the yig fight due to 2 stabbers and 2 !bash mages and the fact they all track. So it was all luck on whether people get stabbed or not or if the silences land on the casters. That's it.

And yes, you can talk about the changes now MAYBE justifying the high-end eq, but pre-changes it sure as HELL didn't.

And still nothing justifies the fact that enough eq comes from that 1 zone to fill every single slot on every single player on the mud. And most of it at the top end.

And like Tod said, seelie is a different zone. And it only gives a possible 10 items or so. And only 5-6/trip and 1 of those is ultra specialized. Plus it's actually, you know, kinda dangerous in a, faeries have 100k hitpoints and can instapris while stunned, silenced, blinded and on their asses sorta way. :P
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Postby belleshel » Tue Nov 18, 2003 2:59 pm

Dizzin wrote:Dont understand why you goodies hate that final fight. It's easy. Just takes a bit of time. Even then it doesn't take THAT long. I find the Loki invasion fight to be significantly worse. And even that isn't a big threat.



Don't lump all goodies together, I think it's a cake fight, there are several tougher in the zone;)
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Postby Stamm » Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:04 pm

Hmm, so what you are saying Dalar isn't that the equipment is overpowered, nor that there is too much equipment given out for one run at the zone. But instead that there's um, 60 or so pieces of equipment that come from there, and despite each piece of equipment being incredibly rare that's still too much equipment to come from any one zone....?

So what you are wanting is, say, 50% of the items to be removed at heart level or do you mean at all levels?
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Postby Jegzed » Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:57 pm

I think its hilarious that this zone has an item that is BETTER than the dragonscale robes straight up..

And it was not downgraded?
/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
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Postby omrec » Wed Nov 19, 2003 4:07 am

Dizzin wrote:The only dangerous fight in spob, (pre-changes) was the yig fight due to 2 stabbers and 2 !bash mages and the fact they all track. So it was all luck on whether people get stabbed or not or if the silences land on the casters. That's it.


I agree, the final fight in spob is very easy, even if you do it the hard way. I still don't understand why people try and make it so much harder on themselves than it has to be, but oh well. Yig is even easier if you do it the easy way. But if you do it the hard way, you're right, it's the most deadly fight in the zone...:) Especially back when we were doing it without a shaman and with only a single cleric. Was fairly tough..:)

Back to the topic at hand. The problem that most people are trying to point out is that while the eq is balanced in a risk/reward sort of way, it is not balanced in a whole-mud sort of way. The direct rewards that you get from a single spob trip really aren't that great, but you have to keep going back, in hopes of eventually getting a full set of gear from there. What people are trying to point out is that this unbalances the spread of which zones get done. This is a general problem, not just a spob problem. We, the players, want to have good reasons to go to all kinds of different zones. As someone pointed out, we liked it when we'd take votes for which zones to go to. Now, we only do that if we're bored. If we're after eq, which is the main semi-tangible reward for zoning, we go to only a couple of zones. We don't like this, but the way the game is set up forces us to. And unfortunately, spob just makes the problem worse, when we want the problem to be better.

When everyone in your group has all they could possibly want from, say, TF, then you aren't going to be leading TF much. That won't be a problem for spob for a long time, which helps that particular zone's longevity, but hurts the longevity of other zones. I'm not sure what the exact solution to this is, but we really need to focus on solving the global problem, not just the spob problem.

All that said, spob is a very fun zone, and very fun to charge through. I like the fights, although some of them are too luck-driven (and when we do come up with strategies to get around that, it gets changed back to being luck-driven..bleh). We just need to spread the love, not concentrate it. We love the zone, we love zoning naked, we loved the challenge when it first came in, we just want to try some other challenges, and feel as rewarded for them.

-Om
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Postby Dizzin » Wed Nov 19, 2003 4:39 am

True Omrec. With a little tactics, Yig fight was even pretty wuss.

Edited because I have problems reading my own typing. *stare*
Last edited by Dizzin on Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Mitharx » Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:07 am

Seems like we have a good argument here to drive people to not go to SPOB very often.

Evils don't do it often from lack of time and lack of chars being around.

Goodies don't do it THAT often from lack of time due having to be up the next day.

DG the eq to oblivion and remove all incentive to go to the zone. Bad solution.

The arguments here that a ton of spob eq is out of balance really isn't all that accurate imho. Some of it is still a bit too powerful, but I can only think of one or two items that should be changed. Some of it is complete crap for the time investment (doesn't matter if it's hard or not, it still takes more time than getting a better held item in one fight at Ice Crag). I think one of the reasons that people want to keep the eq very good is this incentive. They keep in mind that the odds of that person winning awesome eq (bid and random item given) aren't all that high in the end.

DG a couple items, leave the rest. Limit the number of different slots that come from there and make them strictly dependent on which item you win (AKA: heart item = about body or body. This is the biggest slot and should be the most powerful, etc.) Personally, I've found this was already done (in my limited experience with the eq, aka I don't know 100% about it all), but say yes, that's been done and it's fine and then take care of what needs to be taken care of.

You could make the heart/gems all random load, but that would once again most likely take away the incentive to go. I've been told people would do Avernus if they were sure the amulet loaded.

What exactly do people who hate the eq from this zone want? Do they want the items nerfed into oblivion, dg'ed very slightly, or removed? Do you want random loads? Do you want justification for your really long BC or avernus trip where you died a bunch and think it's BS that people have eq as nice as yours? Do you really think it's throwing the game out of balance. I do think there are some good items there. I'm just curious as to why it's problematic.

Sidenote: It would be very difficult/time consuming to win an entire set of SPOB eq. If I did do it (and I know I'm not alone here), I wouldn't wear it all.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:35 am

Stamm wrote:Hmm, so what you are saying Dalar isn't that the equipment is overpowered, nor that there is too much equipment given out for one run at the zone. But instead that there's um, 60 or so pieces of equipment that come from there, and despite each piece of equipment being incredibly rare that's still too much equipment to come from any one zone....?

So what you are wanting is, say, 50% of the items to be removed at heart level or do you mean at all levels?

the problem is you're assigning the same large amount of points towards 5 different items. that's messed up.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Mitharx » Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:38 am

Just out of curiosity, how do you fix that?

Makes sense that items should be about equal depending on which of the three levels you won them at, but it doesn't always follow (some cracked/large is crap, some isn't). Do you think there should be one really good item per gem and the rest crap or all crap to spread the points out better or just make it one item per heart that is worse than other zones that harder and might have more risk involved?
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Postby Sarell » Wed Nov 19, 2003 8:51 am

"the problem is you're assigning the same large amount of points towards 5 different items. that's messed up." - Dalar

Agree with that, is the randomness of the item you get in spob taken into account in stat calculations? Because it shouldn't, as no matter what you do get a sexah ass item. Your group WILL get a heart item even if you don't get the exact one you want. I don't think it is spob's problem, i think it is things like awesomely hard things like dscales robes, etc, etc, etc being nerfed to level's making them 'baggers'.

The spread of gear coming from spob I don't haver any problem with whatsoever. Perhaps more hard to get items will come into game that are on par with spob stuff, and manyof the harder to get items will be bought into line with spob stuff via our current posts in this forum... I hope :9


PS: my twighlight and sucks ass now wey, and surtur isn't all that chop either :P
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Postby Pheten » Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:59 am

Mitharx wrote:What exactly do people who hate the eq from this zone want? Do they want the items nerfed into oblivion, dg'ed very slightly, or removed? Do you want random loads? Do you want justification for your really long BC or avernus trip where you died a bunch and think it's BS that people have eq as nice as yours? Do you really think it's throwing the game out of balance. I do think there are some good items there. I'm just curious as to why it's problematic.


I HAVE A DREAM
That one day All zones will be created equal!
That the point system used to nerf one zone to hell will actually be used on another zone that has three times the total possible rewards, yet they all remain better than most other zones.!

One of the main things you folks seem to forget is the fact that no matter how rare an item is, if its on the equipment list for a zone it costs a certain amount of points. And from looking at alot of these pieces of equipment they should be costing a hella lot. With Recent equipment changes I have seen nothing that tells me that the point system seriously considers rarity of an item reason for good stats (see ymir item downgrades).

Discuss.
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Nov 19, 2003 6:59 pm

My almighty powerful mageblades went to use all right! All three of them! I use them to keep my storage from being empty so I have a reason to visit the innkeeper.
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Postby Waelos » Wed Nov 19, 2003 9:38 pm

Perhaps remove 1 heart item from each class. . . one large gem item from each class and one mage item from each class. . . put them in other zones? Like adding a rogue copper item to TF would be cool. . .not much rogue eq there now. Adding a cleric or mage item to CC would be cool, not much mage eq there now. Just distribute an item or two around the game to zones that need some lovin.

The three heart items you might want to put in new zones, at Tia or make part of quest rewards (like Kern or Erlan). Hey, there ya go. Take out something like elven bag and put in one of the random items from SPOB (like warrior amulet, cleric boots, mage belt or rogue. . .something hehe)

Just another idea!

Lost
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Postby Azenilsee » Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:58 pm

Yeah, why waste good eq when you can spread the love around? The whole point was to make other zones more attractive than SPOB.
Azenilsee - Faern Dalharil
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Nov 19, 2003 11:02 pm

I don't think it's to make them more attractive than SPOB, it's to make SPOB not the most attractive zone in the game to the point where a lot of players only want to go there because that's where all the best equipment is.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Nov 20, 2003 12:22 am

Waelos wrote:Perhaps remove 1 heart item from each class. . . one large gem item from each class and one mage item from each class. . . put them in other zones? Like adding a rogue copper item to TF would be cool. . .not much rogue eq there now. Adding a cleric or mage item to CC would be cool, not much mage eq there now. Just distribute an item or two around the game to zones that need some lovin.

The three heart items you might want to put in new zones, at Tia or make part of quest rewards (like Kern or Erlan). Hey, there ya go. Take out something like elven bag and put in one of the random items from SPOB (like warrior amulet, cleric boots, mage belt or rogue. . .something hehe)

Just another idea!

Lost


taking out 1 item still doesn't do anything. 3 is better
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'

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