Elegantly Deadly Katana and 1h weapons in general

A forum for discussion of the object changes...one thread per item please. Read the first post!
Delmair Aamoren
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Elegantly Deadly Katana and 1h weapons in general

Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sun Nov 16, 2003 12:24 am

1h weapons are so disproportionately overpowered compared to 2h'ers its not even funny!

I just id' my katana for the first time since changes, and it's dice are the same as a gythka. the only difference is the hit/dam

Why should a 1h sword be 4d5 when a 2h weapon MAXES at 8d4? thats 20 vs 32! and most 2h weapons aren't even 8d4 anymore, most are more like 4d5 and 7d3, which are comparable to a 1h weapon!

INCONCIEVEABLE!
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Postby Ikus » Sun Nov 16, 2003 6:54 am

Agree. Weapons are horribly unbalanced now it seems.
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Postby Iyachtu » Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:11 am

Be careful how you evaluate dice (not that the post is right or wrong in substance, but the mechanics of damage):

8d4 is not the same as 4d8, even though they both top out at 32 damage.

8d4 on average will do (8 * 2.5) = 20 damage.
4d8 on average will do (4 * 4.5) = 18 damage.

They look the same, but in reality 8d4 is better.

A more extreme example would be 8d3 vs. 3d8:

8d3 on average will do (8 * 2) = 16 damage.
3d8 on average will do (3 * 4.5) = 13.5 damage.

8d2 = (8 * 1.5) = 12 damage.
2d8 = (2 * 4.5) = 9 damage.

It's best to calculate the average damage of the weapon, rather than the peak numbers.
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Postby Pheten » Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:38 pm

while what you said is correct iyatchu, 2h weapon damage is still too low, honestly its complete bs when you see half of the good 2h weapons out there with damn near equal damge to 1h, or LESS damage than some 1h weapons.
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Postby Savras » Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:50 pm

Don't forget you're also comparing 1h non-proccing vs 2h proccing.
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Postby thanuk » Sun Nov 16, 2003 4:35 pm

Iyachtu wrote:Be careful how you evaluate dice (not that the post is right or wrong in substance, but the mechanics of damage):

8d4 is not the same as 4d8, even though they both top out at 32 damage.

8d4 on average will do (8 * 2.5) = 20 damage.
4d8 on average will do (4 * 4.5) = 18 damage.

They look the same, but in reality 8d4 is better.

A more extreme example would be 8d3 vs. 3d8:

8d3 on average will do (8 * 2) = 16 damage.
3d8 on average will do (3 * 4.5) = 13.5 damage.

8d2 = (8 * 1.5) = 12 damage.
2d8 = (2 * 4.5) = 9 damage.

It's best to calculate the average damage of the weapon, rather than the peak numbers.


Ok well look at the differences your showing up there. 2.5 average. 3 average. Mobs have 30,000 hps. They do around 100-200 damage per hit. And realistically, warriors are the only ones who use 2handed weapons, because antis/paladins have their own 2handers tailored to them directly. So you think we're going to give up shieldblock to average 3 more damage a round against a mob that has 30 thousand hps? Comeon dude, put it in perspective.

Savras wrote:Don't forget you're also comparing 1h non-proccing vs 2h proccing.


Ok lets compare the dread gythka of the thri-kreen to the axe Vahok got from SPOB. gythka is 2handed and has 3 procs, but only one of them is any good. Vahok's axe is 1handed, and has a proc that we don't know what it does yet. So Vahok does the same amount of damage as I do with a gythka, he gets to shieldblock, and the zone his item came from has the best item for tons of slots already. Gythka comes from demi, which has all sub-par items at best, and used to be a hard quest till it got leaked. Then lilithelle twinked it one time with her elementalist and all of a sudden its a useless weapon.

And no, im not saying downgrade Vahok's axe. Upgrade 2hand weapons. You want to give melee a damage boost? Pump up the dice on our weapons and BAM instant damage boost, no coding required. Even if you want to d/g gythka fine, but you guys downgraded EVERYTHING. There's no 2hand weapon out there worth wielding currently. The fact that there's 1hand weapons that do better damage than 2hand weapons should tell you that there's a big problem somewhere. Just think about the way the game works currently, and how much a warrior gives up to wield a 2hand weapon. It's a big tradeoff. There has to be some kind of incentive to make that tradeoff, and currently there's no incentive whatsoever.
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Postby Gurns » Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:00 pm

I wanna say "the worst 2h weapon should do more dam than the best 1h weapon", though that's something of an exaggeration. But it's a good starting point.

One comparison to be making is, as Nukkie said (gad, I'm agreeing with Nukkie, check for Four Horsemen), is what a warrior gives up to wield 2h.

The other way to do the comparison, though, is in terms of pure damage: 2h weapon vs. dualing 1h weapons. I think a 2h weapon should do at least as much dam per round as dualing an "equally tough to get" 1h weapon (given equal skills at 2h and 1h). So gotta think of dice, bonuses, and hits per round.
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Postby Burpie » Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:18 pm

Hmm, well don't halberds usually suck in AD&D but they're 2 handed. I can see where the 2h proc goes off more often. I don't know about one handers cuz I don't get to use them. I'm quite sure the frequency hasn't been upped for 2h; I did notice relative to 1h in group, I proc more often.
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Weapons? whatever

Postby taelin » Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:10 pm

Halberds in D&D have this benefit called range, if you play with the detailed rules... attacks of opportunity and what not because your opponent cant get close enough to hit you with his weapon thats 3 feet shorter than you.

I'll try to refrain from going ape on these changes, but we've been seeing an on going trend in weapons for over 2 years. Twice we've had weapons re-evaluated and downgraded. I remember a day when you would look around and everyone had a different weapon. About the only weapon everyone had was an ebony for obvious reasons.

Basiclly as weapon dice get downed and hit and dam as well, all members of a given class migrate to the same weapon... the weapon that has the best output. The only thing that has mitigated this are procs. But dice damages are so similar now and hit and dam so restricted that they basiclly all are the same. Theres no point in considering dice at all really in our current system. A 1h weapons dice average between 7 and 10? so i get 3 dam bonus from a great weapon? This influences my per round output by 6-9 damage? Like we really care, most rogues wear 36-42 dam in other eq. It basiclly doesnt matter what weapon they wield as long as it has any semblance of dice. hit and dam on the weapon is vastly more important. I can see you saying well take the procs into consideration. Thats all well and good sure. Insert relatively unknown damage modifier at unknown percentage output. Observations will boil it down eventually. Basiclly a nonproc weapon will be discarded because we can calculate its value to be inconsequential.

If you care at all for weapon value outside procs and for variety and what not then weapons need freedom to have dice all over the map. What the heck do i care if I crit, unless I have a crit proc we're talking an increase of 5-6 damage in nearly every case.

These numbers are all inconsequential after level 10. Its all about procs, it has been for ages. Offhand weapons get some consideration but frankly anything with a crit proc mitigates this as well
and hmm... 2 classes wield offhand, and one of them only when forced to. Oh and the other one is basiclly a tool for exp, cr'ing and trap disarming.

2h weapons are even more laughable now. Procs are even more the only consideration now. Flamberge may be considered so uncool for so long, but well its been a wiser choice than all but a small handfull of 2h weapons for ages. Please think about this a little bit. What changed when you altered a weapon who's inherant damage was 20 for 3 attacks (If anyone bothers to haste the warrior any more) to 12 for 3 attacks. You made a per round change of 24 damage!? I see this as a huge effort for a net gain of nothing even ignoring that you were promising to increase melee damage.

I would suggest you consider this. Non proc weapon dice needs a heafty increase. Make a change that is tangible. If a 2h weapon gets upgraded to 8d6 from 4d5 you increase damage output by a mere 36 damage per round. What does cloud do in the 3 rounds it takes to cast? 350 damage to every mob? 24+35 for 3 rounds is 531 damage to 1 mob. And cloud is nothing compared to other spells. Sure this might not make sense if the weapon is throwing out an average of 25 damage per round in proc damage. But if we had a weapon doing that damage maybe we could give up the proc without feeling like you asked us to fight barehanded.

If I had a barehanded skill on my warrior... I wonder how much damage output difference there would be. Obviously we all love parry and riposte but just saying.

Sobu, tired now.
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Postby thanuk » Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:05 pm

Holy crap its taelin!
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
taelin
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sup nukles

Postby taelin » Thu Nov 20, 2003 9:06 pm

yo wassup nukles.

I love reading my own posts... this is why i never post... I ramble and use bad grammer!

Let me restate short and simple.

1. Downgraded weapons mean we use even less variety.
2. Stop wasting time changing 1000s of items to adjust damage by tiny
amounts
3. Consider evaluating weapons on their whole damage potential per round in comparison to damage output of other classes per round.
4. Abandon points relativity to other items, rank weapons based on effectiveness for a given class or classes and move the appropriate stats/weapons to the appropriate zones/quests.

There that makes it easier to understand I think.

old man rambling again

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