Clouds VS. SPoB - Eq frequency?

A forum for discussion of the object changes...one thread per item please. Read the first post!
thanuk
Sojourner
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Clouds VS. SPoB - Eq frequency?

Postby thanuk » Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:08 pm

Ok, I'm still trying to get a full understanding of the way the EQ system evaluates and distributes points, so bear with me.

It seems to me SPoB is allowed to have so many good items because you only get one at a time, so it means there can be multiple awesome items from there since you only get 1 each time you do it.

But clouds works the same way. There's the chests which load 1 of 3 possible items, and only 1 per boot. And we all know some load more than others, I dunno how many runs I had to do before I even saw 2 combat amulets, much less won them...but anyway. Many of the items that loaded in those chests took a big hit: Ruby dragonscale earring suxs mightily now, for example. Those sleeves were never any good to begin with, dunno if they got changed but I doubt they got upgraded. But SPoB eq working on the same system, continues to yield a bunch of really high end eq. What's the difference? Is it because you don't technically HAVE to clear all the giants in clouds to get there? Is it because of other dumb crap from that zone that nobody wants anyway(eyepiece anyone)?

If someone could explain the difference to me, it would be great. Many of the eq changes really do make sense, and people are just complaining because their stuff got downed. But other aspects, such as this(and chlora armor being better than conquest armor), are really confusing, at least to me. A little insight would be greatly appreciated.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'
You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'
Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'
You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'
Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Postby kiryan » Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:58 pm

the designer?

when you know the metrics against which your eq will be "balanced" it makes it easier to tip the scales in your favor.

check out eq from Musphelim, Spob, AV.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
thanuk
Sojourner
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby thanuk » Tue Nov 18, 2003 5:01 pm

Whatever it still doesn't make sense...it looks like the "metrics" or whatever you want to call it for clouds should be very similar, if not identical, to the ones for SPoB, yet SPoB eq is awesome and clouds stuff sucks, so what's the difference that warrants that?
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
old depok
Sojourner
Posts: 572
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Philadelphia PA USA

Re: Clouds VS. SPoB - Eq frequency?

Postby old depok » Tue Nov 18, 2003 6:21 pm

thanuk wrote:Ok, I'm still trying to get a full understanding of the way the EQ system evaluates and distributes points, so bear with me.
.


Dude, we have been bearing with you for quite some time now. You just let us know when we can stop ok? *WINK*
Malia
Sojourner
Posts: 491
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 11:04 pm
Location: Eastern Washington State
Contact:

Postby Malia » Tue Nov 18, 2003 7:17 pm

I tend to agree, I think the Clouds needs some loving.
Dugmaren mutters in a surly voice 'Got any new strategy or going to continue with the "throw bodies at them til they get bored"? '

Dranth group-says 'i started drinkin when i found out galzar would be here'

Nerox says 'careful she goes from 0 to bitch in .00000001 seconds'

Mugo ASSOC:: 'ah got it on my gaytimer now :P'
mynazzaraxxsyn
Sojourner
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 10:00 pm
Location: Ixarkon
Contact:

Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Tue Nov 18, 2003 7:34 pm

Malia wrote:I tend to agree, I think the Clouds needs some loving.


Yes some +max_power lovin'
Lilithelle stops using a softly throbbing piece of flesh.
Gura group-says 'ill go solo the biznatch, just don't tell Stamm'
Kossuth responds to your petition with 'is it bad that the two words i think of when i see yer title are hottub and cthulhu? :('
Gura
Sojourner
Posts: 672
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Yer girlfriend's bed

Postby Gura » Tue Nov 18, 2003 8:10 pm

dude nuk u know the hood and scepter rob all the points...dont forget about the slyph band that gets twinked every boot too!
Dornax says 'And for the right amount of information ye might get some nookie out of Nokie..'

Nokie wiggles his bottom.
Teba tells you 'let me do my job you volo twinker!'
Bobidibble GCC: 'yeah i admit gura is a better warrior then i am, no shame in it... perhaps someday i shall be as pimp'
chandigar
Sojourner
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Naperville, IL

Postby chandigar » Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:02 pm

Gura wrote:dude nuk u know the hood and scepter rob all the points...dont forget about the slyph band that gets twinked every boot too!


Heh the slyphs band *does* get twinked every boot. Its not really all that rare I don't think, I've had multiple people tell me that they just ninja up with a rogue and quest it at boot when it loads.
Sesexe
Sojourner
Posts: 879
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:13 am

Postby Sesexe » Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:10 pm

chandigar wrote:
Gura wrote:dude nuk u know the hood and scepter rob all the points...dont forget about the slyph band that gets twinked every boot too!


Heh the slyphs band *does* get twinked every boot. Its not really all that rare I don't think, I've had multiple people tell me that they just ninja up with a rogue and quest it at boot when it loads.


Well my two slyphs most certainly did not get won by twynking them. Took me about a year to get both and everytime I got a chance to bid on them it was from a 5 hour clouds group where we did the whole zone.

If this item is twinkable, fix the zone so that it isn't and restore something close to their old stats. (Ditto for most clouds eq in general... I mean WTF?) The area designer didn't die, write em an Email or something. He's very much alive.
Asup group-says 'who needs sex ed when you got sesexe.'
Targsk group-says 'sexedse'
mount dragon
You climb on and ride Tocx'enth'orix, the elder black dragon.
You have learned something new about mount!
Jegzed
Sojourner
Posts: 1240
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Jegzed » Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:59 pm

How come Clouds was downgraded so much compared to SPoB?

Including the epic quests in Clouds which involved visiting most tough zones in the mud.


It is clearly obvious to everyone, that the imm's devising this point system were not completely objective, and valued their own zones as tougher, AND they had not played the game much in this incarnation.
/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
Ranor
Sojourner
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2003 4:14 am

Postby Ranor » Wed Nov 19, 2003 12:57 am

chandigar wrote:
Gura wrote:dude nuk u know the hood and scepter rob all the points...dont forget about the slyph band that gets twinked every boot too!


Heh the slyphs band *does* get twinked every boot. Its not really all that rare I don't think, I've had multiple people tell me that they just ninja up with a rogue and quest it at boot when it loads.



I'll assume you don't know the quest or you wouln't make such a silly and untrue statement as you did above. It does NOT get twinked every boot as in order to do the quest you need to find and kill another mob on the clouds grid, killing anything on clouds grid requires a group. What actually happens is people do the zone and the mob with the quest item loads and the sylph doesn't, the item is rentable so people check the zone with rogues at a later time to finish the quest. I fail to see how this is "Twinking" anything as very few quests need to be done the instant the quest item is obtained.
Gura
Sojourner
Posts: 672
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Yer girlfriend's bed

Postby Gura » Wed Nov 19, 2003 1:25 am

i spose if u really think that there is no safe place on clouds grid and that mobs dont track well...then maybe you should re-evaluate your knowledge of the zone.
Dornax says 'And for the right amount of information ye might get some nookie out of Nokie..'



Nokie wiggles his bottom.

Teba tells you 'let me do my job you volo twinker!'

Bobidibble GCC: 'yeah i admit gura is a better warrior then i am, no shame in it... perhaps someday i shall be as pimp'
Ranor
Sojourner
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2003 4:14 am

Postby Ranor » Wed Nov 19, 2003 1:38 am

Gura wrote:i spose if u really think that there is no safe place on clouds grid and that mobs dont track well...then maybe you should re-evaluate your knowledge of the zone.


I must admit I had no idea this was happening. So every boot rogues run up to clouds, lure the mob with the quest item(lev 54?) to a room where it's safe for them to solo it. I must admit this would be twinking, good thing they downgraded rogue equipment. Thanks for bringing this abuse out into the open.

In case you are referring to a small groups ability to get the item then yeah it can be done. A small group of skilled players with time on their hands can do a large amount of equip/quests, it's really not restricted to clouds items. Orb of Annilihation was done countless times with 2 people.
chandigar
Sojourner
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Naperville, IL

Postby chandigar » Wed Nov 19, 2003 1:41 am

Ranor wrote: I'll assume you don't know the quest or you wouln't make such a silly and untrue statement as you did above. It does NOT get twinked every boot as in order to do the quest you need to find and kill another mob on the clouds grid, killing anything on clouds grid requires a group. What actually happens is people do the zone and the mob with the quest item loads and the sylph doesn't, the item is rentable so people check the zone with rogues at a later time to finish the quest. I fail to see how this is "Twinking" anything as very few quests need to be done the instant the quest item is obtained.


Whoops, I apologize, what I meant was that the sylphs mob probably isn't as rare as everyone thinks. The quest item isn't horribly rare so a lot of people have them stockpiled, then at boots people just run up and quest the mob at boot (as you said).

I didn't mean that people twink them solo or something every boot, just that its checked asap every boot so it'll appear more rare than it really is.
Gura
Sojourner
Posts: 672
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Yer girlfriend's bed

Postby Gura » Wed Nov 19, 2003 1:46 am

wow cuz rogues are the only ones who can walk around grids with aggro mobs safely!
Dornax says 'And for the right amount of information ye might get some nookie out of Nokie..'



Nokie wiggles his bottom.

Teba tells you 'let me do my job you volo twinker!'

Bobidibble GCC: 'yeah i admit gura is a better warrior then i am, no shame in it... perhaps someday i shall be as pimp'
old depok
Sojourner
Posts: 572
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Philadelphia PA USA

Postby old depok » Wed Nov 19, 2003 1:42 pm

Jegzed wrote:How come Clouds was downgraded so much compared to SPoB?

Including the epic quests in Clouds which involved visiting most tough zones in the mud.


It is clearly obvious to everyone, that the imm's devising this point system were not completely objective, and valued their own zones as tougher, AND they had not played the game much in this incarnation.


I do not think this is fair nor accurate.

I know that the imm who devised the point system is very active in this incarnation as an imm and as a player. I also know that he is VERY well aware of the relative ease/difficulty of most if not all zones.

Keep in mind, what you think is difficult may not be for others.

Also, this was not a small project and I know that some players were asked for input into the system itself. Any perceived bias towards one zone or another is a coincidence and I am sure, will be addressed.
Todrael
Sojourner
Posts: 1454
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:01 am
Location: MI, USA
Contact:

Postby Todrael » Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:02 pm

old depok wrote:I also know that he is VERY well aware of the relative ease/difficulty of most if not all zones.

From the goodie point of view. There is a pronounced difference between the two sides of the game.
-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
Get Toril Guides and Maps at Todrael's Lair
Get Item Stats at TorilEQ
Dalar
Sojourner
Posts: 4876
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Dalar » Wed Nov 19, 2003 3:55 pm

Todrael wrote:
old depok wrote:I also know that he is VERY well aware of the relative ease/difficulty of most if not all zones.

From the goodie point of view. There is a pronounced difference between the two sides of the game.


yes, because goodies are for advanced players.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
Jegzed
Sojourner
Posts: 1240
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Jegzed » Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:11 pm

old depok wrote:
Jegzed wrote:How come Clouds was downgraded so much compared to SPoB?

Including the epic quests in Clouds which involved visiting most tough zones in the mud.


It is clearly obvious to everyone, that the imm's devising this point system were not completely objective, and valued their own zones as tougher, AND they had not played the game much in this incarnation.


I do not think this is fair nor accurate.

I know that the imm who devised the point system is very active in this incarnation as an imm and as a player. I also know that he is VERY well aware of the relative ease/difficulty of most if not all zones.

Keep in mind, what you think is difficult may not be for others.

Also, this was not a small project and I know that some players were asked for input into the system itself. Any perceived bias towards one zone or another is a coincidence and I am sure, will be addressed.



I've been an imm here as well, and I know perfectly well that Dugmaren is a nice friendly chap, and he was not CONSCIOUSLY trying to make his zones better. It is just human to be MORE knowledgable about your own zones, and think more about it.
I'd personally would probably think the end fight in Drider Caverns are tougher than Loki etc.

And regarding one of the epic quest in clouds.. We have ONE here, that involves doing full Cave City, full Clouds, Flames, and Basin Wastes.
It also involves finding three VERY rare dragons across the realms that are also used for countless of other quests.

And somehow.. that ends up as WORSE than a single rare from a normal zone like SPoB. (Zones on prime without the chance of losing eq in should be categorised as less than Ice Crag in worth, as there is NO risk involved.... Time and EXP is negliable.)
/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
old depok
Sojourner
Posts: 572
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Philadelphia PA USA

Postby old depok » Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:18 pm

Todrael wrote:
old depok wrote:I also know that he is VERY well aware of the relative ease/difficulty of most if not all zones.

From the goodie point of view. There is a pronounced difference between the two sides of the game.


Then Jegzed should have said that instead of saying the person did not play regularly, or was biased.
thanuk
Sojourner
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby thanuk » Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:22 pm

Jegzed wrote:Zones on prime without the chance of losing eq in should be categorised as less than Ice Crag in worth, as there is NO risk involved.... Time and EXP is negliable.


The phrase, "dead on balls accurate" comes to mind.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
rylan
Sojourner
Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Hudson, MA

Postby rylan » Wed Nov 19, 2003 6:53 pm

*roll* Do we really have to start up (again) the whole discussion about how there is no real risk of losing your eq regardless of what zone you do?
thanuk
Sojourner
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby thanuk » Wed Nov 19, 2003 7:30 pm

rylan wrote:*roll* Do we really have to start up (again) the whole discussion about how there is no real risk of losing your eq regardless of what zone you do?


Well if they put corpse rot time back to 2 hours...:)
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
Dezzex
Sojourner
Posts: 263
Joined: Fri May 11, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Va.BC

Postby Dezzex » Thu Nov 20, 2003 12:49 am

I liked 2 hour rot times myself. Probably the only one. :)

As for clouds.. what I don't understand is why certain items were upgraded rather than just staying what they were. And other items were downgraded rather than just staying what they were. That is to say, wouldn't there be a lot less fuss if storm bracelets were still 2 dam 3 maxdex and verm sleeves were still ac 10 1/2, rather than having this odd balance shift?
Waelos
Sojourner
Posts: 499
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Postby Waelos » Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:27 am

"(Zones on prime without the chance of losing eq in should be categorised as less than Ice Crag in worth, as there is NO risk involved.... Time and EXP is negliable.)"

Uh

Should this quote also be posted on all those quest threads that people are whining about getting downgraded? Scorp earring = prime quest with NO risk involved. Does this fall into the same Categorey?

The question is, if this time and XP are negliable in reference to prime zones, then so too must be quests.

Can't have it both ways ;)


Lost
Jhorr
Sojourner
Posts: 513
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Jhorr » Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:17 am

Cyric has said quest items, in general, need to be re-evaluated because the calculations didn't really fit for them under the point system. I look forward to when they are fixed.
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:41 pm

It was my understanding that non-Prime zones earned higher points in the system than non-Prime zones, already.
Dlur
Sojourner
Posts: 379
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Minnesota
Contact:

Postby Dlur » Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:45 pm

Ashiwi wrote:It was my understanding that non-Prime zones earned higher points in the system than non-Prime zones, already.


Hurm, I thought it was that prime zones earned higher points in the system than prime zones. But you could be right, perhaps non-prime zones earn higher points than non-prime zones.
Ghimok|Dlur|Emeslan|Ili|Zinse|Teniv
*~~~~~~~~~~*
"Censorship is telling a man he can't eat a steak just because a baby can't chew it." - Mark Twain
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:07 pm

Okay, I was just informed by somebody that the documents do, indeed, give more points to prime zones than non-prime zones. I'd always heard it was the other way around. Now I'm really confused. Why in the world would a prime zone merit more points than a non-prime zone?
Savras
Staff Member - Areas
Posts: 298
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 5:01 am

Postby Savras » Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:13 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Okay, I was just informed by somebody that the documents do, indeed, give more points to prime zones than non-prime zones. I'd always heard it was the other way around. Now I'm really confused. Why in the world would a prime zone merit more points than a non-prime zone?


Theres actually more to that. General non prime zones are worth less because you can easily gate in and out of the zone. If it was a real zone, you could just fish gates till you hit an eq mob. There are very few zones that fall into this category other than the existing elemental planes.

Non-gatable non-prime zones have a significant bonus, and planes that require prots also have an additional bonus.
Dalar
Sojourner
Posts: 4876
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Dalar » Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:29 pm

Savras wrote:
Ashiwi wrote:Okay, I was just informed by somebody that the documents do, indeed, give more points to prime zones than non-prime zones. I'd always heard it was the other way around. Now I'm really confused. Why in the world would a prime zone merit more points than a non-prime zone?


Theres actually more to that. General non prime zones are worth less because you can easily gate in and out of the zone. If it was a real zone, you could just fish gates till you hit an eq mob. There are very few zones that fall into this category other than the existing elemental planes.

Non-gatable non-prime zones have a significant bonus, and planes that require prots also have an additional bonus.

wait, so how did bronze citadel get shafted? and how did muspelheim and its invasion load just completely rock the mud?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
Yarash
Sojourner
Posts: 432
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Monterey, CA

Postby Yarash » Sun Nov 23, 2003 4:01 am

Jegzed wrote:It is clearly obvious to everyone, that the imm's devising this point system were not completely objective, and valued their own zones as tougher


This does appear to be the case, unfortunately.

- Mike
Yayaril
Sojourner
Posts: 2551
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Green Bay, WI

Postby Yayaril » Sun Nov 23, 2003 9:05 am

8)

They should downgrade Bronze Citadel gear more, that way my guild will never want to do it and I won't have to tell them that I won't be joining them in the most boring zone ever.
Salen
Sojourner
Posts: 771
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Salen » Sun Nov 23, 2003 2:38 pm

Why is it that the mud in general can't know the way points were scored and divided amoungst eq?

It seems silly that you want people to tell you what was wrong, but you won't tell them how it was figured.
Dalar
Sojourner
Posts: 4876
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Dalar » Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:33 pm

because then people are going to read it and think they know the system but then forget they don't know one thing: how each and every flag is placed in zones. i'd be quite annoyd at the amount of players bbsing "hey shouldn't this equipment have X points? why is it so weak?" etc.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
Salen
Sojourner
Posts: 771
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Salen » Sun Nov 23, 2003 4:10 pm

It would however end the
Is there a difference between prot gas and prot fire?
What about Prot evil?
Prot undead?
Is move counted really high points?
Does requiring gate matter?

Etc.

And might, just might, end some questions of how one zone gained while others lost stuff.

Return to “Object Changes”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests