Damage System

For discussion on integrating the players, areas, code, and cool stuff from Homeland into TorilMUD. All discussion welcome.
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Damage System

Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:41 am

Is it going to be integrated?
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Postby Cyric » Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:47 pm

Ayup, it's one of the top code things we've prioritized. Our A#1 goal is OLC, then zone conversion (a few small ones/medium ones at first to test things out, followed by a doozie), then codebase to include races, damage, spells, etc. Not sure about kits...I'll let others discuss that on different threads if ya'll are interested.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:55 pm

*drool* kits. would make the game less bland!
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:57 pm

Dalar wrote:*drool* kits. would make the game less bland!


Well, Corth would have his sorc. :P
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Postby Gura » Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:13 am

one big thing i would like to suggest being looked into is homeland's value on 2handed swords. they were worth wielding on homeland where as here they are more of a novelty unfortunately unless you have a 64dam ogre wielding twilight ::whistle::
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Postby Corth » Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:29 am

I don't know much about homeland. However, I can say that adding a whole bunch of new classes (and their accompanying skills) to toril would be fairly unbalancing. Adding invokers, illusionists, and liches served to turn high end zones like jot, into low end zones. I think that the gods will have to put a lot of work into tweaking player power relative to existing zones, and relative to other players. EQ stats will be another difficult project.. though reassessing the failed eq changes from last year is a welcome result.

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Postby Yayaril » Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:26 am

8)

I hope if they're adding in new high end zones, they're going to throw the concept of 'maximum power cap' out the window for items and challenges.
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Postby Yarash » Tue Feb 22, 2005 4:58 am

Yayaril wrote:8)

I hope if they're adding in new high end zones, they're going to throw the concept of 'maximum power cap' out the window for items and challenges.

The only cap is an artificial one set by players. The cap is set by complaints.

Anything can be made, but, for example, if a 100 hp ring was made, there would be a lot of complaints about it being overpowered, and it would need to be downgraded. There is a feeling among some players that no new items can be better, equivalent or close in stats to some existing high end items.

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Postby Yayaril » Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:56 am

8)

That's not what I was told by the gods when they were balancing the zones.
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Postby Vikaz » Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:50 am

one big thing i would like to suggest being looked into is homeland's value on 2handed swords. they were worth wielding on homeland where as here they are more of a novelty unfortunately unless you have a 64dam ogre wielding twilight ::whistle::


70dam ogre zerker wielding Malevolence. *sniff*
V
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:45 pm

Yarash wrote:
Yayaril wrote:8)

I hope if they're adding in new high end zones, they're going to throw the concept of 'maximum power cap' out the window for items and challenges.

The only cap is an artificial one set by players. The cap is set by complaints.

Anything can be made, but, for example, if a 100 hp ring was made, there would be a lot of complaints about it being overpowered, and it would need to be downgraded. There is a feeling among some players that no new items can be better, equivalent or close in stats to some existing high end items.


Try again. It's not necessarily that things can't be better than items already in the game, it's that things need to be balanced compared to things already in the game, and they need to not totally detract from items and zones already available.

The cap which is in some of our brains is the long-term playability of the game. Variety is the spice of life, and if the value of one or two items in the game eclipses every other item of that type in the game, then the value of other comparable zones is reduced. If you have only one or two zones which give out the best loot in the game, then those zones are considered the "high end" zones, the areas which players will want to return to again and again, while other zones (with gear that used to be the best and now is only ho-hum) turn into trips of necessity just for quest purposes. This is going to happen with most zones, of course, but in order to maintain long-term playability item values need to have a wider distribution throughout the zones, because doing the same damned zone over and over and over again because it has all the super-inflated stat gear isn't going to maintain overall player interest.

With the influx of all these Homeland areas I'm hoping that there will be a wide array of ass-kicking zones which will allow Toril to open up the caps and give a wider variety to top end gear. At the same time, I still hope the value of many of Toril's present zones is maintained to some degree. I happen to be rather fond of some of them.

As for the equipment changes, I thought those were an excellent start to a new system. The problem with the statting system as it is, is that there are huge elements of zones, both new and old, that it doesn't take into account. The new system needs to be a base from which to work, instead of the final authority on equipment statting.

Maximum caps... I would love to see several zones in the game of the same caliber as Tiamat or Avernus. Zones like Tiamat, which a regular group of zoners couldn't possibly be expected to tackle, but which offers rewards so great that they couldn't possibly be expected to resist, either. I'd love to see zones so hard, that even the most hardcore players think it's suicide. Wouldn't that be fun??!!!
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Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:59 pm

What damage system?
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Vaprak » Tue Feb 22, 2005 6:23 pm

kiryan wrote:What damage system?


Homeland has a concept that breaks all types of damage into various categories, for example: Fire, Cold, Electricity, Slashing, Piercing, Bludgeoning, Bare fists, Negative Energy, Possitive Energy, Force, Raw Magic, etc. There's a lot of categories, and I don't remember them all off the top of my head.

Every spell, skill, or any other attack that causes damage is assigned one or more of these categories. For example, the fireball spell is DAMAGE_FIRE, attacking with a sword is DAMAGE_SLASH, and a meteor swarm might be something like {DAMAGE_FIRE,DAMAGE_PHYSICAL}, meaning it is part fire damage and part physical damage.

Each race is able to have immunities or vulnerabilities to certain types of damage, and varying degrees in between. Not all races have to have immunities or vulnerabilities, for example most PC races have none, and neither does a squirrel. A skeleton for example takes half damage from slashing and piericng weapons, and 2x damage from bludgeoning weapons. Certain types of Baatezu or Tanar'i take damage from only one or two types of spell damage. For example a Cornugon Baatezu takes no damage from fire or poison, and only half damage from gas, and cold. They are still fully vulnerable to acid based attacks. You can also have certain races which take double damage from some attacks, such as trolls taking 2x damage from fire damage and 1.5x damage from acid, etc.

Another possibility that this particular damage system brings about is the ability to have equipment that protects say 20% against acid damage, or a suit of body armor that is 10% better against slashing damage than it is any other.

Some of the many advantages of this system is that it creates a MUCH wider variety in the NPC races for zone creators to use, and it also helps with spell damage balancing by causing spellcasters to have to attempt different types of spells against different foes. No more just casting inferno until you're out and then switching to swarm, etc. It allows us to add new spells that have new effects, and in general causes a greater variety of choices for the players and zone makers alike. It is also possible to create a wider variety of equipment choices with this system as well.

This is how Homeland's damage system worked as a point of comparison. The details of how this will all work on the merged Toril MUD are still being debated, and as such aren't availble for me to post.
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Postby Yayaril » Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:40 pm

8)

Ashiwi, nobody complained when their Havenport gear was 'eclipsed' by their Jotunheim gear. There needs to be a natural progression of zones that form a ladder of power and challenge increase to hold people's interests. I can understand your point where one zone may be too heavily favored if it has too many good things- that's where the gods should make sure that each new zone has only so many slots allocated to it for the next 'tier' of equipment. If you want the next best earring, you go to X. If you want the next big bracelet, you go to X. It's normal for zones to fade into the background as new exciting zones come out, since the players have already done that zone, seen its challenges, and reaped all its rewards. You can keep old zones active via the requirement of quest components, but that still doesn't make them any more fun, when you've already done them a thousand times. I don't see what some people's hang up is about old zones fading into the background. Nobody gets fussy over not doing the first dungeon of Dragonwarrior anymore when they're nearly at the castle of the Dragonlord. You have bigger and better things to do.
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:24 pm

Oh no, no, I don't have any problems with some zones becoming easier while others become harder, and therefore hold greater value equipment (except for sentimental reasons, of course). The only problem I see is when it's a very small number of zones which hold what is inarguably the best equipment for almost all the classes. Zones are going to come in that are more preferred than old zones, that just happens, but in order to keep variety to the game, the value of the most desired rewards should have a greater spread throughout the game, instead of lumping it all into one, especially when the zones aren't really Tiamat level. One of the best ways to do this is to ensure that some of the older zones maintain at least something to attract the attention of players.
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Postby kiryan » Thu Feb 24, 2005 9:35 pm

You can dress any class in spob gear and be very well equipped. possible exception rogue.

that pretty much sums it up.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby kiryan » Thu Feb 24, 2005 9:36 pm

Thanks for the info Vaprak.

I think it would absolutely rule if the damage system was impd on toril. Damage needs more types than fire, cold, melee, and magic.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Burmadapig » Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:36 am

Pogta Ogre Berserker - 60/125 (or 120 I forget) wielding twilight during proc.

Yummy! Damagalicious!

-B aka Nazma
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Postby kiryan » Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:39 pm

Damage should be able to be flagged multiple types.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Pril » Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:49 pm

hmm.... i think most i've seen is Toarn with a triple proc from twilight on toril had something like 60/115 or 120 or so...

Pril
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue Mar 08, 2005 2:29 am

kiryan wrote:Damage should be able to be flagged multiple types.


Homeland did that if I recall. Like Vaprak said, meteor swarm for instance. some fire, and some force damage and there was another type I believe. Every spell had that.
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Postby Larem » Tue Mar 08, 2005 6:07 pm

for the record kiryan :P spob eq on the high end is nice (except cleric gauntlets *snarl*) but the in between stuff is not any better than stuff from other zones, with the exception of the mage eq at the lowest level, which is better than anything else.

yes, u can dress in spob eq and have nice stats, if you are a mage, cleric, which i have sum experience with :P has some nice stuff, but a lot of it is minor compaired to some of the other options out there.

just so you know :P dressing totally in spob isn't the top end of being eq'd......and.....why on earth would someone wear nothing but spob eq?
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Postby rer » Tue Mar 08, 2005 6:11 pm

Larem wrote:just so you know :P dressing totally in spob isn't the top end of being eq'd......and.....why on earth would someone wear nothing but spob eq?


Cuz they really like having their Ansi match?

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