Homeland Kits

For discussion on integrating the players, areas, code, and cool stuff from Homeland into TorilMUD. All discussion welcome.
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Homeland Kits

Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Feb 21, 2005 10:55 pm

For those of you unaware, these are the classes/kits Homeland actually had.

Warrior
Paladin
Anti-Paladin
Ranger
Giantslayer
Weaponsmaster
Shadowstalker
Berserker
Swashbuckler
Bladesinger
Mercenary
Monk
Battlerager


Rogue
Scout
Thief
Assassin
Thug
Bard

Sorcerer
Invoker
Enchanter
Illusionist
Necromancer
Planewalker
War-Wizard
Conjurer

Cleric
Shaman
Druid

Psionicist
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hrm

Postby Baikalisan » Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:21 pm

they had actually already put in some other ones as well, including a bunch of the cleric kits.. drow duergar etc had already been put in
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Postby Vaprak » Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:26 pm

You forgot Worgrider also under goblin.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:37 pm

So someone post a complete list :P I'm going off memory here.
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Postby Lathander » Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:43 pm

Posting these so there is a complete list

Sorcerer
Conjurer
Necromancer
Enchanter
Invoker
War-Wizard
Planewalker
Illusionist
Lich

Rogue
Thug
Scout
Thief
Bard
Assassin

Warrior
Monk
Ranger
Paladin
Anti-Paladin
Berserker
WeaponMaster
BladeSinger
BattleRager
Swashbuckler
Mercenary
ShadowStalker
GiantSlayer
Monitor
Worgrider

Cleric
Druid
Thunderbeast Sham
Gruumsh Shaman
Vaprak Shaman
Tempus Cleric
Lathander Cleric
Selune Cleric
Cyric Cleric
Talos Cleric
Tyr Cleric
Laduguer Cleric
Lloth Cleric
Corellon Cleric
Moradin Cleric
Kossuth Cleric

Psionicist
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Postby Jhorr » Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:29 am

Holy bejesus Batman! Class is in session.
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Postby Lahgen » Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:32 am

Perhaps some of these kits could be integrated into the game as a Lich type prestige class after you gain 50 in a base class.
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Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
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Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:59 pm

I have a real problem with creating any more specialization in the form of kits.

1. Specialization would most likely add a whole shit load of stuff that would need to be balanced. We have failed miserably at balancing rangers for 8 years... paladins and antis to a lesser degree... What makes you think we will have more success with 40 new classes? I played a gruumsh shaman on homelands for a time and he sucked ballz compared to vaprak shaman for the month or so that I played... there were only 10-15 classes at that point.

2. Specialization inherently means power in that players have more skills/spells which they can selectively employ against enemies. You will of course always try to pitt your strengths against the enemy's weaknesses.

3. A smaller shrinking pbase should favor less specialization because forming groups should be easier if you don't need as many specific classes. If we only had sorcs it would be much easier to form a group than presently with enchanters, illusionists and invokers...


On the plus side, given everyone has several alts, kits might give them extra reason to play (level up the 40 new classes).
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Postby Lahgen » Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:31 am

Just seems to me that perhaps this could be a way to sort of balance melee.

Leave warriors the defensive powerhouses they are, but they have the option to quest into a more damage oriented class. (And no, not rogues, you sarky people.)

Of course, that's just a theory.
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Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
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Postby Corth » Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:49 pm

Lahgen,

Melee will never mean a damn thing so long as area writers continue to make zones with multi mob fights, and certain classes are endowed with the ability to almost single handedly kill such rooms.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby Llaaldara » Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:45 pm

kiryan wrote:I have a real problem with creating any more specialization in the form of kits.

1. Specialization would most likely add a whole shit load of stuff that would need to be balanced. We have failed miserably at balancing rangers for 8 years... paladins and antis to a lesser degree... What makes you think we will have more success with 40 new classes? I played a gruumsh shaman on homelands for a time and he sucked ballz compared to vaprak shaman for the month or so that I played... there were only 10-15 classes at that point.

2. Specialization inherently means power in that players have more skills/spells which they can selectively employ against enemies. You will of course always try to pitt your strengths against the enemy's weaknesses.

3. A smaller shrinking pbase should favor less specialization because forming groups should be easier if you don't need as many specific classes. If we only had sorcs it would be much easier to form a group than presently with enchanters, illusionists and invokers...


On the plus side, given everyone has several alts, kits might give them extra reason to play (level up the 40 new classes).


I can agree with pretty much most of that.

So why not make these 'kit's nothing more then eyecandy differences? Like a cleric of tempus that casts full harm, it would say "..calls upon the Fury of Tempus to assault.." instead of "his/her god"?

Just like.. make em LOOK different, but not really that much different? I suppose there could be actual different minor spells that aren't anything more then flavor related and wouldn't affect balance really.
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Postby Lahgen » Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:42 pm

Corth wrote:Lahgen,

Melee will never mean a damn thing so long as area writers continue to make zones with multi mob fights, and certain classes are endowed with the ability to almost single handedly kill such rooms.

Corth


You could have just said "Downgrade invokers" and saved a lot of words there. :p
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Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
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Postby rer » Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:58 pm

Lahgen wrote:
Corth wrote:Lahgen,

Melee will never mean a damn thing so long as area writers continue to make zones with multi mob fights, and certain classes are endowed with the ability to almost single handedly kill such rooms.

Corth


You could have just said "Downgrade invokers" and saved a lot of words there. :p


Or UPGRADE hitall!! :P
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Postby Lahgen » Fri Feb 25, 2005 3:38 am

Wow, someone who isn't whining about gear and spells being too powerful, and actually wants to *upgrade* something?!

*looks out the window* Hrm...no Horsemen...guess there are a few seals and trumpets left to go.
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Hekanut says 'I know level doesn't matter much, but most won't take seriously if a level 2 claims to be the best thing before, during, and after sliced bread.'



Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
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Postby Yarash » Fri Feb 25, 2005 3:53 am

Lahgen wrote:
Corth wrote:Lahgen,

Melee will never mean a damn thing so long as area writers continue to make zones with multi mob fights, and certain classes are endowed with the ability to almost single handedly kill such rooms.

Corth


You could have just said "Downgrade invokers" and saved a lot of words there. :p

If invokers weren't around, then liches would take their place, followed by elementalists, illusionists, enchanters, necros and shamans. All or most of these classes would need to be removed, or have their damage spells removed before melee classes would be brought in to do damage in existing zones.

I don't think multi-mob fights are the issue at all. Without casting areas, mages are still usually better than melee. Targets don't feedback and don't require the caster to be globed.

I'm not sure what the solution is, but making some melee-friendly zones would be nice. I'm very interested in hearing Corth's ideas on this. My own thoughts are that some new zones could be !magic, or have mobs with high MR, or be at least partially this way.

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Postby Corth » Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:59 am

I wasn't referring to just invokers. We have a very concrete problem: certain melee classes, such as rangers, are more or less useless in a group because their single target damage output in zones containing multi-mob fights is minimal compared to a caster pumping out areas.

There are two practical solutions that can make melee damage more useful. First, you can have more single mob fights. Upgraded dragons make melee more useful in that sense. Second, you can downgrade the effect of spell damage in general, area damage in particular. Such a downgrade would effect all the casting classes. However, it poses a special problem for invokers because while the other classes will be diminished, they will still have reasons to exist. The only reason invokers exist is to pump out areas. In order to make rangers useful, you would have to render invokers meaningless.

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Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Gura » Fri Feb 25, 2005 8:19 am

Corth wrote:Lahgen,

Melee will never mean a damn thing so long as area writers continue to make zones with multi mob fights, and certain classes are endowed with the ability to almost single handedly kill such rooms.

Corth


+1 but with the idea that damage needs to be brought back to the form of targetting. it was an art....and you would spank if you didnt do it right back in the day....it took skill to do it instead of a bunch of invokers gsaying what nuke they're casting.
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Postby Yayaril » Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:12 pm

8)

I remember when melee damage was king. It took the massive skill to hit 'assist so-and-so' and then 'dragon', 'dragon', 'dragon'. Frankly, it takes about a hundred times more skill to coordinate nukes than target a mob correctly.
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Postby Tasan » Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:46 pm

100 * 0 is still 0.

!!x
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:22 am

How do the kits work?

I'm assuming the lists above mean Warrior is the main "class" and Ranger is a kit for the warrior class? Can you mix kits up, like have a ranger weaponmaster? Were rangers any good over there?
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Postby Turxx » Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:40 am

the kits all came from a base class, at level 10 you could choose to kit, between 10 and 20 i believe, it was a pretty simple quest
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Postby Ambar » Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:29 pm

I liked my moon elf bladesinger ...
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Postby Ensis » Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:43 pm

Those of you against the kit implementation think about this :)

Currently, warriors, pallys, rangers, rogues don't really turn the tide in big zone situations. Casters are always better, can do way more damage to way more targets. Adding in another kind of ranger, another kind of rogue, another kind of warrior, is not going to create balance issues. Why would a berserker having a berserk ability make a warrior unbalanced?

Anyways, I think the kits are cool because it adds some variety. Right now we have a ton of different specialized caster classes, and three warrior classes. Even if it's just a different ansi with one or two different skills i'd like some variety.
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Postby rer » Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:26 pm

Personally, I've been advocating for some kind of Warrior kit or additional quested skill to make the class more fun.

I'm not looking for "Khanjari Might", a skill that hastes you, vits you, heals you, and triples your hit/dam like the dagger.

Something minor - like an additional method of blocking/dodging attacks, or a berserker rage that you could call 1x or 2x a mudweek that would be kinda like a mini-haste or increased damage or something small - would be really cool and would really add to the class without hurting gameplay.

The way to do this would be to make the Warrior able to quest into a kit class warrior at level 50. Say, a Berserker that gets "Berserk", or a Legion that gets "Turtle" - Berserk adding to hit/dam/attacks, but taking away from defensive skillz, Turtle adding to defensive skills, but decreasing offense, and maybe slowing motion, so rescue lags 2x as much...

Shrug. Just thoughts.
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Postby Burmadapig » Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:05 am

Kit specialization helps balance rather than hurts it. Each kit has its strengths and weaknesses and therefore choosing the proper blend of classes in a zone group takes some thought.

Kiryan, if you played when there was only 15 kits, then you never experienced all that the kit classes had to offer. I understand that's your perspective from what you experienced, but it's not an accurate assessment of the state of the kit classes at the time of the merger.

Kits are far more than "eye candy" as someone said. Granted, some kits play a primary role in most zone groups while others are nice to have and some are merely a variation of each other. The variation kits, IMHO, cater to personal play-style preferences and increase the ability for those who choose to role-play more options.

Everyone's idea of what is important is different. To some the way a class is utilized in zones is most important. To others, being a Swashbuckler and being able to walk around talking like a pirate is the best thing since the keg was invented.

If you don't like the idea of kit classes, then as I always told people on Homeland play a base class. The base classes were completely playable and strong zone classes. Sorcs are the first to come to mind.

Variety is the spice of life. The many flavors that kits offer gives the opportunity for more people to play the way they want to.

Corth, I agree about invokers and I play one. Maybe every time an invoker casts an area mobs should switch to the invoker.


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Postby Larem » Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:59 pm

the best way to fix malee: (as i've said before)

add 10d5 to all swords in the game

drop daggers so that at the top end, they are only 3d4

i do like corth's idea of downgrading area damage

i also think that if kits went in, w/o this minor malee change, they would suck, since malee is a problem anyway, giving a warrior more ways to do 5 hp a round is not the best solution.
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Postby rer » Tue Mar 08, 2005 6:08 pm

As things stand now, a warrior is a meatshield, and is not expected to do damage. I don't mind it so much - I get invited to most zones and still get a bid, just for having good rescue triggers and a decent skillset. Hell, I just watch movies and whap Pril while in zone :P
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Postby Pril » Tue Mar 08, 2005 6:33 pm

He bots! Delete him! *nod self*

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Postby moritheil » Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:53 am

Gura wrote:
Corth wrote:Lahgen,

Melee will never mean a damn thing so long as area writers continue to make zones with multi mob fights, and certain classes are endowed with the ability to almost single handedly kill such rooms.

Corth


+1 but with the idea that damage needs to be brought back to the form of targetting. it was an art....and you would spank if you didnt do it right back in the day....it took skill to do it instead of a bunch of invokers gsaying what nuke they're casting.


So long as 90% of people say that fights that leave tons of dead mobs lying around are more fun, area writers will continue to want to write zones with multi mob fights. I mean . . . if someone made a zone with just a single nasty monster that took 1.5 hours of nonstop combat to kill, would that zone be fun for most people? It would be body-throwing, like a mini-tia, but without the cool loot and the status.

People generally want measurable progress in the form of dead enemies.
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Postby Eilistraee » Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:46 pm

We created a 'single' mob that thirty people spent an hour and a half killing, and 90-95% of the participants said it was some of the most fun they've had on this mud. :)
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Postby Lilira » Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:19 pm

Yup! I'm one of them!

Although to call it one mob would be like calling Tiamat a tiny lizard. I still chuckle when I remember the spells that went off on the !magic layer,, nuking half the party.

It was a fight that required paying attention and timing to a point. Had a blast. I only died once, and it was to one of the thing's buddies. We did LOTS of switching to kill the little stuff while everyone else kept at the big mob.

BTW,, I don't remember if we had invokers or not. I don't think so.
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Postby Lilira » Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:57 pm

I stand corrected. There was one invoker.

Lil
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Postby Dartok » Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:03 pm

Kits actually got me interested in homeland, and the rest of the stuff there got me to stay and not play toril anymore. I don't think too many of the older school players of soj1 days would hate to see berserkers or monks come back. And alot of these kits were very race restrictive: weaponmaster/shadowstalker were drow only, bladesinger was moon-elf only, giantslayer was limited to the midget races (dwarf, halfling, gnome), monitor was an evil version of monks only available to kuo-toa, Swashbuckler was human only with same weight restrictions as a monk even for their weapons but with great tanking potential and flurry attack to give them a slight damage boost..And as for the cleric kits..Just the anticipation of their coolness convinced me to make 6 clerics of different races so i could play with them. And when they started popping up, with you losing some spells from the base cleric class and gaining some brand new ones, you always had the choice to stay base cleric if you wanted to, but it gave the people that wanted it something fun and new to try out.

I think the niche classes made playing more fun, and what helped that even more was the items that popped up designed specifically for some of those classes. The drow warrior/weaponmaster/shadowstalker only 1h weapon with some fun procs. The Human only (only proc'd for swash) wt1 1h rapier from tiamat that made swashbucklers just a little more fun. The mage weapons like the orb from DS that made something like a war-wizard with decent swinging ability and double attack more fun. The rogue only 1h mace for the thug who wants to sap. Or the 2h piercing weapon that gives mercenaries a backstabbin good time.

Now you old toril players can't tell me you don't like your toys, because otherwise nobody would ever go to BC again, nobody would ever do the quest for that lightning proc shield, and nobody would do the gythka quest.

Now as for the classes that overlap, there were alot of spells that some of the classes had on homeland they don't have on here that people would probably love to have, like hypnotic pattern for illusionists, death spell for liches, effulgent epp for enchanters, vamp touch on anti-pals. And then there are some classes i think are just flat out better on toril like bard/battlechanter.

The tricky part becomes how to balance all these new skills/spells but you need to keep in mind that when the homeland zones come in you're most likely going to need some of these skills/spells. And if nothing else it gives people that go out there and do something uncommon like playing a drow or a gnome warrior when everyone thinks dwarves or trolls are better tanks something more unique than just low hitpoints.

Just my thoughts on one of my favorite aspects of homeland

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Postby Lathander » Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:33 pm

Yea, the big advantage to kits is the variety it creates. Also, I think they helped from a roleplaying point of view. You're right Dartok about the importance of leaving a generic option so folks didn't have to kit up to the more niche kits/classes if they didn't want to. Heck, we had a number of players that swore by the sorceror class instead of playing invoker, enchanter or the other mage classes.

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Postby Mirlantharn » Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:38 am

Speaking from the standpoint of a player that help instigate the notion of the "kits and core classes", from an earlier incarnation of Homeland, there was a reason I pushed for kits to be converts from a core class. First, a little history.

Mirl the First, from the years of Toril in '97, is _STILL_ the best "version" I had ever had. Sorcerer with an AWFULLY bad strength though he was, there were times that he could tank just long enough for the warriors to finally get in a rescue to save the group. Also, this was back when enchanters, invokers, and illusionists were all rolled up into the same class Sorcerer. Then, the march onward to Sojourn, and then Sojourn 2 with it's enchanter, invoker, and illusionist split. I still miss some of the spells that became part of the invoker and illusionist's domain. Then the fateful day when Soj 2 disappeared, and we wandered away to other places. I eventually settled onto a particular place that was attempting to have newer (not necessarily better) ideas about things, and particularly about classes.

The kits were going to be strikingly similar to Soj 2's, but with more variety eventually. In order to get things rolling over there, they had started with the sorcerer class and were going to separate the class into three (and more eventually) without a main class. Having looked at the proposed spell lists and finding it lacking even moreso than the dear Toril days, I contended that I would rather just stay a Sorcerer than specialize. Observing how my character seemed to do better overall than the enchanter class, a discussion ensued. I insisted that I'd rather have a choice as to what class I play, and whether I undertake a kit. It was from that very discussion that, a mud later, Homeland had a _questable_, optional kit system. My hat is off to the staff there for inventing the questable feature, I actually _enjoyed_ the conversion.

However, this story does continue a little further. The same spell lists that I had seen for the kits, I recognized that they were the exact same spell but with a different name. In effect, a "restring" of spells was the choices I had. I also insisted that with the option of somehow choosing our path, that the spells be _actually_ different enough to _want_ to change to that kit. It was from that discussion that the planewalkers got quite a few new, and actually different, spells from any other classes and kits. However, there was one more thing I insisted upon; that the spells for the kits and the originating class ALL be the same. It seemed too odd to be a sorcerer with mage flame at 1st circle, and then become a planewalker without it. I contested that if my character learned something, it learned it for good. Mostly that premise was maintained on Homeland, with only 2 quirks that still were "forgotten spells", but the better part of it made for a good transistion between class and kit.

Now, I wasn't the only voice in all of this, but what I stated did happen. Those players that remember and participated in those discussion with the staff of the pre-Homeland and Homeland mud, I've forgotten exactly whom you were, but I didn't forget there were some other viewpoints and suggestions. I'd appreciate a nudge and a handshake on the mud when you remember me there. Also, it was an open discussion with both the players and the staff that allowed such a system to be made, though I'm sure my insistance caused some frustration with the staff at having to develop a different system than they had anticipated originally.

Now, answering the question about kits and balance is a little more difficult, but also easier. Yes, the kits made for more spells and abilities that needed to be balanced. However, kits were still based upon a core class, and most kits still retained a lot of the old spells that had been balanced before. So, _most times_ a kit player of a certain class wasn't too badly interchangeable with another kit of the same class. I say most times, cause a planewalker had a few spells that were totally different and original enough to cause some small insistance that one was in the group, but not _always_. Group Relocate was a nice spell to have, but I'll totally admit that it did end up being overpowered in it's implementation. A good implementation of a spell can make or break the balancing, and sometimes changing the _exact_ way a spell behaves does better than downgrading the spell in full.

All said and done, the kit classes made for more individualism and fun, but it came at a large price from the staff, particularly at having to develop totally new spells for new mage kits. But it didn't cause too much of the insistance of a particular kit always be in the group, as opposed to another kit of the same class.

An aside, I will say that I very much enjoyed the way that quest mobs behaved on Homeland. To those only having been on Toril and never having been on Homeland, I'll say this; quest mobs were different. They were harder in some aspects, most times _requiring_ that you knew the Forgotten Realms book history, but also easier in other aspects. They also blended in more with the areas, as opposed to sticking out like a sore thumb in other areas. Granted, they were still a "quest mob" AI, but I can't recall exactly what it was that made them feel more.... like a true NPC.

If this seems like I enjoyed Homeland 100% and Toril 0%, I've only been illuminating the Homeland side of things within this reply. There are many things that Homeland lacked that Toril has. It's a _difference_, not a _better_, comparison. I'm posting this in the hope of betterment, though.

Long Live Toril, Long Live Homeland, and may the merger blossom!
-Mirlantharn
Kallinar
Sojourner
Posts: 564
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Location: C'ville Va.
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Postby Kallinar » Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:26 pm

The warrior kits and race selection is what brought me to homeland and kept me there.
Wel ALL kow that casters outweigh melee major like in this mud. We don't need 30 different types of cleric. We don't need any more mage classes. Why not throw longtime melee people like myself a freakin bone. I played a shaman. It kicked butt...but I just hate playing a caster. Only time I ever felt really useful in a zone playing melee was when people asked me to lure with archery..and that hardly ever happened anyhow cause somone had to guard 1 west.

Berserker-Ogre, troll and Barbarian
Rage. Nuff said. Oh yeah and possibly regen abilities for ogre and barbies? (drool)

WeaponMaster-Drow elf
Would finally make a drow elf warrior more desireable to more people

BladeSinger-Grey elf
See Weaponmaster..replace drow with grey.

Swashbuckler-Human, half-elf, orc
You have no idea how much I enjoy buckling swash...Touk would flip out tho.

Mercenary - Human, Orc, Half-elf
Man Dirt-kick is the pwn...as long as you're not on the receiving end heh

Battle Rager - Dorf
Yay for dorf zerkers!

These would make it a lot more fun to be a meatshield or support meat shield, or a hitter than it currently is. I for one really don't like having to go watch a movie while everyone else works thru the level. I'd really like to see more people paying attention to their screen as a hitter or tank.
Kallinar goes MOO
Image
Confucious say: He who walk around with hand in pocket feel kockie all day.
Eza
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Posts: 309
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Virginia
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Postby Eza » Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:01 pm

I miss my Swashbuckler
Holding this in mind
That if we fall, we all fall
And we fall alone
Lathander
Staff Member - Areas
Posts: 781
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:18 pm

Postby Lathander » Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:48 am

Didn't like the cleric kits? :)

I believe that this is stuff in the future rather than something which will happen soon. There are alot of other things to do before this such as OLC :)

Lath

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