Homeland Players and their Chars

For discussion on integrating the players, areas, code, and cool stuff from Homeland into TorilMUD. All discussion welcome.

Should the Homeland players be given some sort of compensation for their time at Homeland considering this is a _merger_ of the two MUDs?

Absolutely, give them something!
46
72%
No way, they should have to start from scratch!
15
23%
Who cares about Homeland people?
3
5%
 
Total votes: 64
Burmadapig
Sojourner
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:56 pm
Location: New Orleans
Contact:

Postby Burmadapig » Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:41 pm

I've started from square one at least 5 times...3 on soj/toril and 2 on Homeland. Been there, done that, have the pdays to show it.

It would be ok if everyone was starting from square one, but that's not the case. Only the Homeland only players have lost anything with the merger.

Toril players gain the benefits of Vhaeraun's code and all the Homeland areas that are to be imported, areas builders get OLC, and 4 former Homeland gods find a new home.

The orphaned Homeland only players get to either suck it up and start over or quit mudding altogether.
teflor the ranger
Sojourner
Posts: 3923
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Waterdeep

Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:50 pm

Burmadapig wrote:Anyone who does NOT think that Homelanders need/deserve to get an equivalent character, should have all their characters and equipment and bank balances deleted and be forced to start over from square one.

I bet the response to this will be Not NO but Hell NO!

Isn't that what the Homelanders had done to them?


Actually, the homelanders were playing a mud that decided to disappear.

The only thing the former homeland players bring to TorilMUD are the same things that former othermud players bring to the table here:

their personalities.

Quite frankly, if you're going to give the former homeland players free stuff, you'd start to give other former players of other muds free stuff as well.

Khanjari's for all and a barrel of rum.
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm

If those other muds want to shut down and merge with Toril, and the Forgers are good with that, then I say bring it on!
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
Burmadapig
Sojourner
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:56 pm
Location: New Orleans
Contact:

Postby Burmadapig » Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:59 pm

teflor

The difference between those "other" muds and Homeland is that Homeland merged with Toril.

It seems that the general take on it is that Toril assimilated Homeland instead.
Shar
FORGER ADMIN
Posts: 791
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Shar » Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:05 pm

So, some of you are behaving poorly and it is making the Gods from Homeland upset, with good reason. If this were a hostile 'take-over' do you really think we would have announced it at all? If this were a hostile 'take-over' do you really think we would have 4(more to come) immortals from Homeland *working* HERE? If you really think this was a hostile take-over, do you really expect that an accusitory tone is going to get you what you want?

Here is the latest.

TO ANNOUNCE: we are still evaluating WHAT can be done for homeland players that would be fair to all players while still considering that they may feel 'ripped off' in this merge.

TO ANNOUNCE: no, we won't be doing straight pfile integration. It would not work even if we thought it was a good idea.

We are still open to ideas and are evaluating many, atm. So far, no happy medium has been found, and, atm, nothing is being done to help homeland-only players out. We will post and announce and put it in the news when it is finally decided.

Until then, please keep flaming or careless remarks to yourselves. Some of you had good feedback in this thread. A LOT of you did not. I'll get specific if I need to.
Shar - Forger Administrator, TorilMUD

Brandobaris : (51) [ would a forgotten realms zombie be interested in brains? ]

Shevarash tells you 'Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down..... groan'
Pril
Sojourner
Posts: 1834
Joined: Sat May 11, 2002 5:01 am

Postby Pril » Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:10 pm

Well here was what i thought of this from the start although i doubt that it'll happen or that many will agree with me. I thought the best thing to do was to prep the homeland zones for integrations. And then once everything is ready to put into the the mud do a full wipe. Start over with fresh noone comes out on top. It's a whole new world out there etc. But people won't go for a wipe so there's no good way to balance it really. 2 muds, 2 different styles of eq etc can't easily merge since there's no goo dway to convert the time/effort/soul that the homeland players put into homeland into something on toril. So if you ask me prep all the zones, and wipe the mud, we may lose some player sbut i think in the long run we'll gain more.

*shrug* my 2cents

Pril
Llaaldara
Sojourner
Posts: 998
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Dobluth Kyor

Postby Llaaldara » Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:43 pm

Selzan wrote:Embracing those from Homeland is a simple way to accomplish that immediately, and really should not go unignored. Here's your built-in chance to advertise and market Toril to quite a few people, who may not give it a shot otherwise -- don't lose the opportunity over the views of a few pigheaded people.


Krogsh, Selzan, and Retark_Myktark I'd like to seriously thank you all for finally coming forward and continuing to address this situation and make your contributions on the subject matter at hand. Your thoughts and opinions on this topic are what matters the most because you are the subjects of this topic. If it took me being a complete 'pathetic' 'elitist' 'snob' 'condescending' 'uncaring' cunt calling you all noobs just to get you guys to post, then I happily don't mind being Devil's Advocate.
But please know, that I have been intimately aware of the declining playerbase problem, as I've been playing evilrace this whole wipe, and evils felt the hit 2 years before the goodies. It's also because of this fact that I knew we needed to hear from people like you on what should be done to increase your desire to play here, since we here have been discussing this issue for some time to no avail.

I don't think my grumpy old bitter ass honestly has the foggiest idea what you guys need incentive wise to play anymore then the rest of these Torilidiots. So I could give a crap less what they think you need. And Sel, you're absolutely right. The crappy additude I display is one of the defining problems here. I couldn't agree with you more on that.

Also, I was not aware that Homeland had just up and left, so to speak, and without notice dropped itself off the face of the net, ditching all it's current players with nothing more then a "dear john" like message. No warning. No prep time. Yes, that's a raw deal if this is in fact the case. That's fucked up is what it is.

Do I know what you guys need to have incentive to now play here? I sure don't, but some of the suggestions we are hearing from you all aren't sounding all that far fetched to be honest.

So keep it up, grab some of your friends who gave up and bring em here too to speak up. If any of you need to call me out, feel free. I don't mind. :) (I probably deserve it anyways).
Selias
Sojourner
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Wilmington, DE USA
Contact:

Postby Selias » Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:46 pm

I think the best overall conversion would be a straight xp conversion. I played on homeland for a bit and I know the exp is easier, so just do the conversion. It's simple enough.

As for eq - I don't think any should be given. As it has been said Torilites have been generous with equip for the new players. Also, it would give the Homelanders a chance to do the 2nd tier zones to learn their classes more.

Skills should be set to the maximum level that you could train them to at the guildmaster for the level before

IE - lvl 50 homelander gets a lvl 35 toril char with skills of a lvl 34 char who trained up at the guildmaster. This would give some decent skills with chance to improve still. Maybe even give the skill level of 5 levels below their toril char.

Post more maps of things - I think the toughest part is re-learning the geography. Nothing very detailed, but a world map that is accessable through the bbs would be very helpful. I bet that even current toril players would enjoy that.

I also want to thank the Homeland players. It's always nice to have new players!
Tasan
Sojourner
Posts: 1710
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Fridley, Mn USA
Contact:

Postby Tasan » Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:24 pm

Lahgen wrote:So, why should Toril have any obligation to reimburse Homelands players?


They don't have any obligation, hence why nothing has been done.

Llaaldara wrote:Toril players who left to play Homeland without deleting themselves, and came back, don't need a free leg up, because they already have it with existing characters. These people, you people, are already established. Why do you want free chars for having gone to another mud, just because it's code and areas is being merged with this one? That's absurd. I fail to see how any of you are honestly worried about the players this matters to most. Instead, I just see established Toril players who want free chars/gear for having left Toril and played elsewhere.


Reality check, I started this post, and I have characters at Homeland, and would I want something for them? Not on your life. You haven't seen the numerous posts of established players there that loathed Toril/Soj in the past because of numerous reasons. Toril has admittedly come a long way in the customer service area.

I started this thread hoping that something might be done to assuage the anger and resent these people have for this place, that makes them not even want to play here. Looking at one of the threads on the Homeland board about the merger, you realize very quickly that many of the players there won't even give this place a chance. I wanted to give them a reason to try.

Llaaldara wrote:It's a different world here, you gotta learn it. I've had enough of the level 50 newbies who don't know how to do their job or walk from one HT to another. Toril doesn't need to start importing clueless noobs from other muds now :P


Having said all that, I'd imagine you ran on HL and knew the place inside and out, however I know you didn't. Your assumptions are yours and yours alone. HL was built with the intention of providing a better Toril for the players. Not an actual mirror image, of course not. However, many aspects of the game remained intact. To call a lot of these people newbies is absurd.

The entire idea was to expand the playerbase, and perhaps by that build new interest in the game. It's not surprising that comments like yours drive people away. Look at the evil pbase... many of which left because of attitudes like yours.

As for Toril importing clueless people... ahem, pot, kettle, black. The sad thing is, you'll deny everything here and continue to be a burden on the populace here instead of an inspiration. Congrats on destroying something many of us are trying to hang on to.

!!x
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'

Dlur group-says 'I have a dead horse that I'm dragging down the shaft with my 4 corpses. Anyone want to help me beat it?'

Calladuran: There are other games to play if you want to play with yourself.
Burmadapig
Sojourner
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:56 pm
Location: New Orleans
Contact:

Postby Burmadapig » Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:52 am

Please base the conversion percentage not on levels, but only experience earned on the character being replaced. We all know that once you hit 50.99 you have experience accumulated after that. 70-75% of the experience earned is far more reasonable and fair than 70-75% of levels.
grundar
Sojourner
Posts: 209
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:03 am
Location: vt inn
Contact:

Postby grundar » Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:57 am

ok i felt that it was time to voice my opinion so i registered and decided to write this post.

i am a homeland only player... and i do know a lot of people who mud here still, and even more people who used to mud here and so i have been equipped nicely (thanks all) and have been helped to level up lots.

Immortals from homeland could have actually given us a warning ahead of time instead of dropping the bomb and closing mud right then and there. that is my biggest complaint (and to a lesser one.. the fact that they didnt boot and i couldnt complete that quest that vaprak had just fixed!.. blah!)

ok so i had well over 20 alts.. among those more than half were lvl over 40.. of which most were 50 and had tons of buffer exp.. i can still remember my weaponmaster's 2300, my anti's 1800, and my squids 1200 (before bug). I am not here to argue against burmadapig's post.. i just want to point out that in my case 75% transferred of the exp from any alt would be unfair at best.. to the rest of the people here and from homeland. but that is just my case..

I personally wouldnt like to be advanced to lvl 20 on the start why? well its easy.. i learned 100 different things from lvls 1 to 20.. for example the small but very important differences on how things work here for example hide (to know if you are hidden here you have to spam the people you are grouped with and they will tell you if you are hidden or not, this was not the case in homeland, there you had a you attempt to hide, and succeed. message.. but this i'll post somewhere else) and global loading patrols of really high level mobs (they still murder me at lvl 35 when they decide to bash me on entry. one round and poof.) so to me those levels were where i could learn stuff and die.. (ofcourse if i lost level i'd loose hps which is really really crappy since you are learning at that point.) and to exp back up to where i was it would just take me an hour topps.. lvl 30's i learned stuff about the new skills, i had never heard of garrote, much less seen it work.. so im now learning about that skill, how it works, who can be garroted, how much it usually lasts and lands, etc etc etc.

Now i know i'll still be learning at lvl 49 maybe even at 50 so i know i do not want to be advanced in levels.. and i know i do not want eq to be forcefully given to me.. the players have been nice enough already but what i would ask for if there was a case by case consideration would be that once i hit 50 i could get some buffer exp granted to me instead of the lvl advancement.

ofcourse i do not believe that will ever happen, so i'd rather you guys focus on fixing some existing problems.. the biggest one imo the exp.. ok so i go and kill a mob, and get 3% for it and krogsh goes and kills the same mob alone and gets 3% for it but we group and we get 2% every 3 of that mob? can you see the problem in that? it actually makes me not want to group with krogsh much so he can get some good exp.. and meanwhile i can solo some mobs and get a little exp. it is not good that the exp splits among the groupmembers.. if one person got 2% for the mob solo then everyone should get 2% when grouped since its a combined effort and everyone would 'learn the same amount from the enemy' ofcourse ithis is only f they are all roughly the same level..

if you could fix that then you would see more newbies grouped together.. instead of waiting for a high level tank to take them around.. or perhaps give people a being grouped bonus to exp... i have seen that bonus in other muds and always thought it was great..

sorry if some of the stuff in the post is not easy to understand upon reading it once, its drunk, im late, and am drinking :P

(edited cause make fun at burmadapig's post is not the phrase.. changed to argue against)
-------
in homeland = grundar redfist
in torilmud = rezah
Last edited by grundar on Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tasan
Sojourner
Posts: 1710
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Fridley, Mn USA
Contact:

Postby Tasan » Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:39 am

Thanx for your post man, appreciate your candor.
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'



Dlur group-says 'I have a dead horse that I'm dragging down the shaft with my 4 corpses. Anyone want to help me beat it?'



Calladuran: There are other games to play if you want to play with yourself.
Burmadapig
Sojourner
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:56 pm
Location: New Orleans
Contact:

Postby Burmadapig » Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:39 am

Glad to see you post G.

It's a given that I meant 50.99 as a cap of the 70-75% of experience.


Group experience on Toril is distributed amongst the members. Consider solo experience a group of 1. You're always going to get more experience solo, but it will generally take longer to kill the mob. If you're in a group, you'll get less experience because the group can kill the mob faster. On Homeland there was not a group penalty of any significance. One of the reasons experience was easier. On Toril, the penalty is immediately evident on a mob by mob basis.

One of the things we had on Homeland that I'd like to see here is bonus experience for zones. It encouraged people to zone to get experience instead of doing mindless kill the same mob over and over again.
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:35 am

Vaprak wrote:Ok, so for the 63% of you that said that Homeland players, ones who don't have any high level characters on Toril, should be given something to compensate for the time, effort, and energy they spent on Homeland what do you feel that fair compensation would be?

Please be specific and realize that it is impossible to transfer pfiles from one MUD to another and that equipment will not be transferred.

For those that think that absolutely nothing should be done for Homeland players, I've pretty much seen all of your reasons why you think that way.


You brought up many very interesting points in that earlier post.

Re: equip, I wasn't saying that equipment should be transferred, just that as part of giving "a leg up," TEMPORARY gear could be given to them that would be removed/changed to junk in a couple of weeks. That would give them the time to integrate themselves with current players, exping together and whatnot.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'
Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'
Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:49 am

Selias wrote:(snip)

Post more maps of things - I think the toughest part is re-learning the geography. Nothing very detailed, but a world map that is accessable through the bbs would be very helpful. I bet that even current toril players would enjoy that.



Selias, it's great to see you on the boards again. In my mind, you will always be one of the greatest enchanters of all time.

I can't help but think you're mistaken about this one point, though. I have always thought that people who wish to really and truly immerse themselves in the Toril experience should memorize as extensively as possible, and rely on maps as little as possible. This makes for better players overall, makes for a more realistic experience (as you have to "remember the way" just as your character would), and perhaps most importantly, imprints this game and this specific MUD on the minds of the players.

Long after I've been to some of the older areas, I sometimes find that I still know them like the back of my hand. This provides a powerful inducement to continue playing this game. This sort of factor would not be present if the game did not demand, at some level, that people incorporate things into their long-term memory, where they could pop up in peoples' minds later on.

In short, though it may seem odious, forcing people to learn things is one of the fundamental means whereby a game keeps players. I don't really know if it's a good idea to get rid of that, or lessen it.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
Burmadapig
Sojourner
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:56 pm
Location: New Orleans
Contact:

Postby Burmadapig » Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:47 pm

Mori

As the Homeland zones are ported over, it is my understanding that the geography of Toril will be changing to more closely reflect FR as Homeland did.
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:52 pm

Nods. The layout of Toril is going to have to be changed dramatically in order to incorporate the Homeland zones into the appropriate FR areas.

Toril's gonna be GINORMOUS!!!!!!
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
Pril
Sojourner
Posts: 1834
Joined: Sat May 11, 2002 5:01 am

Postby Pril » Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:25 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Nods. The layout of Toril is going to have to be changed dramatically in order to incorporate the Homeland zones into the appropriate FR areas.

Toril's gonna be GINORMOUS!!!!!!


Just the way Ashiwi likes it *halo*

Pril
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:24 pm

Pril wrote:
Ashiwi wrote:Nods. The layout of Toril is going to have to be changed dramatically in order to incorporate the Homeland zones into the appropriate FR areas.

Toril's gonna be GINORMOUS!!!!!!


Just the way Ashiwi likes it *halo*

Pril


How could I know if I'll like it if I've never eperienced anything that big before? I'm not the type to mud around, as I'm pretty much a one-mud girl, so I haven't seen any other muds that are as large as Toril's going to be once this merger is complete. I am, however, looking forward to exploring it thoroughly.

It's a good thing there'll be maps.
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
grundar
Sojourner
Posts: 209
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:03 am
Location: vt inn
Contact:

Postby grundar » Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:27 pm

moritheil wrote:
Selias wrote:(snip)

Post more maps of things - I think the toughest part is re-learning the geography. Nothing very detailed, but a world map that is accessable through the bbs would be very helpful. I bet that even current toril players would enjoy that.


I can't help but think you're mistaken about this one point, though. I have always thought that people who wish to really and truly immerse themselves in the Toril experience should memorize as extensively as possible, and rely on maps as little as possible. This makes for better players overall, makes for a more realistic experience (as you have to "remember the way" just as your character would), and perhaps most importantly, imprints this game and this specific MUD on the minds of the players.

In short, though it may seem odious, forcing people to learn things is one of the fundamental means whereby a game keeps players. I don't really know if it's a good idea to get rid of that, or lessen it.


You do not need elaborate zmud maps leading everywhere.. you just need some basic ascii maps of locations, and that is more than enough to get new players started. the ability to know roughly where x place is (not zones but only hometowns some regular towns (important ones) and a couple of low level expzones) will be a huge help for newbies, plus it is part of the lore of FR that most everyone knows... they know that zhentil keep is in the east and that shadowdale is quite near it.. they know that waterdeep is south of neverwinter which in turn is south of luskan.. all of this the newbies know.. but seeing it on a drawn map helps navigation a lot.. homeland had this.. and i used it for an entire year while i was still learning the mud. some main roads were detailed in those maps.. for example where the long road and high road split to go either to neverwinter or to longsaddle.

if there is already this in the mud then by all means delete my post and mmail the command to me cause i have yet to find it for myself :P
Selias
Sojourner
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Wilmington, DE USA
Contact:

Postby Selias » Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:35 pm

Grundar - That's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. Also, I thought it might be a good idea to have a world map drawn up of Toril, basically the same thing as an ascii map, but a little prettier looking. Could post this on the web page somewhere. I remember starting out my first char on the mainland, I would have killed to know where SS was, but since I didn't, I had to grind on mobs in podville forever =( Guess I could have asked someone, but directions are always iffy, because if you make one wrong turn you're lost =)
Burmadapig
Sojourner
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:56 pm
Location: New Orleans
Contact:

Postby Burmadapig » Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:21 pm

With the influx of Homeland zones and the rearranging of zones to more closely reflect FR, wouldn't a basic AD&D altas give you all you need to know? That's what we tried to do on Homeland. Location Location Location! With some exceptions I'm sure, I think most of the notable zones on Homeland were fairly accurate in location to each other.
rer
Sojourner
Posts: 552
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:19 pm

Postby rer » Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:30 pm

*Puts the thread back on track for a second*

Point well taken Shar.

Here's my 2 cents, trying to be as helpful as possible...

It seems to me that we're spending a lot of time trying to decide what to do, when what really needs to happen is for someone to make a decision, one way or the other, about porting characters over from Homeland.

As I see it, we have a few options:

1) No character importation of any sort.
2) Create a mid-level (30's?) character of the same name with maxed (from guildmaster) skills for their level.
3) Create a character "copy" on Toril, based on the Homeland stats.

Please note that 2 & 3 have several different subsets of options too...

I) Equipment - no reimbursement
II) Equipment - halfway decent reimbursement
III) Equipment - full reimbursement with equivalents from Toril

A) # of Characters: One for everyone
B) # of Characters: All for everyone
C) # of Characters: One for players with no current TorilMud characters

Essentially, IMO, this is something that needs to be resolved before we lose any Homeland players, ie: quickly. Also note that there are plenty more variables that I did not bother taking the time to list out.

My vote would be 2.I.C. personally. But regardless, I think this is something we need to get on top of.
Burmadapig
Sojourner
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:56 pm
Location: New Orleans
Contact:

Postby Burmadapig » Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:36 pm

rer, can we take 25% of your levels and give them to a Homeland only person so they can add it to the midlevel 30ish character and be close to 50?
Xisiqomelir
Sojourner
Posts: 870
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Ixarkon
Contact:

Postby Xisiqomelir » Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:41 pm

Vaprak wrote:Ok, so for the 63% of you that said that Homeland players, ones who don't have any high level characters on Toril, should be given something to compensate for the time, effort, and energy they spent on Homeland what do you feel that fair compensation would be?


One level 41 character of identical race, class and setbit stats.
Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"

Gura: ..btw, being a dick is my god given right as an evil.
Vahok
Sojourner
Posts: 525
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 6:01 am
Location: guelph,ontario,canada

Postby Vahok » Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:03 am

Here's my pointless .2 cents..

I understand 100% how the HL players are feeling. Lost and without a true home. Missing their old characters and friends. Basically, the easy and best solution imo, is to make everyone feel welcome. I'm not for spoon-feeding people eq and levels, but I am behind the idea of actually helping these players out. Take them out and exp them. Hand down your old eq. Take them to the older zones and have a bit of fun yourself. Heck, just imagine taking 2 or 3 HL players to say Muspel and basically give them everything on the glist. I don't think it would take long to equip them into something zonable and then some. What it comes down to is making the game more friendly, to HL players and true new players in general, would go a shitload farther then handing people things.

What really would be the point of giving a HL player a level 35 character with buffed out eq? They still aren't going to know the land here well, they still won't have top tier eq (and if they did, then I would be pissed!), and the still won't zone often due to being unknown. They will tinker around with their new, semi-equiped characters and fade off into the sunset. Now, does that solve anything? Didn't think so...

To sum it up...help out players! New players, from Homeland or just new in general, need our help. And I think if we want this merge to work, we owe it.
Meatshield
Burmadapig
Sojourner
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:56 pm
Location: New Orleans
Contact:

Postby Burmadapig » Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:52 am

Xisiqomelir wrote:One level 41 character of identical race, class and setbit stats.


Can't necessarily do identical race, class because many races and classes that were on Homeland do not exist on Toril.
Burmadapig
Sojourner
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:56 pm
Location: New Orleans
Contact:

Postby Burmadapig » Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:08 am

Vahok wrote:What really would be the point of giving a HL player a level 35 character with buffed out eq? They still aren't going to know the land here well, they still won't have top tier eq (and if they did, then I would be pissed!), and the still won't zone often due to being unknown. They will tinker around with their new, semi-equiped characters and fade off into the sunset. Now, does that solve anything? Didn't think so...


The main reason I've been opposed to admins handing out equip to Homelanders is because their is no need with the generosity that the Toril players have shown to the Homelanders. At least on the evils side, I know that the Homelanders have been given zonable equipment.

I agree that it is up to us to show them around and take them zoning. Not many people are going to take a level 21 zoning. Hence, why I keep pushing for equivalent levels or at least 70-75% of Homeland exp. Xisi said 41, but how about a 46? At that point you have all of your spells/skills barring quest spells. You are a viable group member at that point. Homelanders may not know the land, but in a zone group they don't really need to if the leader does what he/she would do with any other player that has just reach zone level. Instruct on what is going on with this or that particular fight.

That said, Homeland players DON'T need to be instructed on how to play. They can hold their own in any zone group you put them in bar none. Yes, maybe they need to be told what to expect from some fights, and they aren't afraid to ask, but for the most part they can play uncoached.
Vahok
Sojourner
Posts: 525
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 6:01 am
Location: guelph,ontario,canada

Postby Vahok » Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:35 pm

Burmadapig wrote:
Vahok wrote:What really would be the point of giving a HL player a level 35 character with buffed out eq? They still aren't going to know the land here well, they still won't have top tier eq (and if they did, then I would be pissed!), and the still won't zone often due to being unknown. They will tinker around with their new, semi-equiped characters and fade off into the sunset. Now, does that solve anything? Didn't think so...


The main reason I've been opposed to admins handing out equip to Homelanders is because their is no need with the generosity that the Toril players have shown to the Homelanders. At least on the evils side, I know that the Homelanders have been given zonable equipment.

I agree that it is up to us to show them around and take them zoning. Not many people are going to take a level 21 zoning. Hence, why I keep pushing for equivalent levels or at least 70-75% of Homeland exp. Xisi said 41, but how about a 46? At that point you have all of your spells/skills barring quest spells. You are a viable group member at that point. Homelanders may not know the land, but in a zone group they don't really need to if the leader does what he/she would do with any other player that has just reach zone level. Instruct on what is going on with this or that particular fight.

That said, Homeland players DON'T need to be instructed on how to play. They can hold their own in any zone group you put them in bar none. Yes, maybe they need to be told what to expect from some fights, and they aren't afraid to ask, but for the most part they can play uncoached.


While I do agree that HL players don't need to be instructed on gameplay itself, they do need to become known. Yes, I'm sure some HL players have friends here and would like the whole exp process to be sped up. However, is that fair to older Toril players who aren't even 46? Is that doing lesser known HL players a favour? Personally, I would only like to see exp given to about level 30. That is good foot in the door, forces someone to exp for only about a week or so to become 40ish (while helping some HL players learn the slight differences here...we don't need more noobs at level 46). Plus, helps them become known I figure. I don't overly mind them getting a head start, I do think some effort needs to be put in to become 46. I mean, how many other games start at the end? (ie. zoning, soloing decent eq, blah blah)

Random thoughts...
Meatshield
Vaprak
Staff Member - Areas
Posts: 630
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:46 pm
Location: Midwest

Postby Vaprak » Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:50 pm

Something is being worked on in regards to this and Shar and I will get it taken care of as soon as we gather the required information, which may take a bit. Hoping to have this done before it is "too late". Thank you for your patience.
Vaprak, the Destroyer
-Formerly Tempus of HomelandMUD -- pre-merger
rer
Sojourner
Posts: 552
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:19 pm

Postby rer » Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:20 pm

Vaprak wrote:Something is being worked on in regards to this and Shar and I will get it taken care of as soon as we gather the required information, which may take a bit. Hoping to have this done before it is "too late". Thank you for your patience.


Thanks Shar and Vaprak!
Burmadapig
Sojourner
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:56 pm
Location: New Orleans
Contact:

Postby Burmadapig » Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:58 pm

I guess the reason that Vahok and others seem to think that "we don't need any more noobs at 46" is because they have never played on Homeland and don't know the calibre of players that were there. Even if the players were just the average mudder, Vahok and others seem to think there is a significant difference between Homeland and Toril. There isn't! I've played extensively on both muds. Homeland was designed by people who grew up on Soj/Toril. Why do you think it is so different or that there is a learning curve coming from Homeland to Toril? Frankly, it's an insult to the Homelanders who had probably more level 50s than most people on Toril have to suggest they would be noobs at any level. I'm not trying to flame anyone here, but you guys really need to think about how what you are saying comes across to the Homeland people. It really comes across like you're saying that Homeland and its players are inferior. That's definitely not the way to get them to want to play on Toril.
Pril
Sojourner
Posts: 1834
Joined: Sat May 11, 2002 5:01 am

Postby Pril » Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:50 pm

I don't agree with the mentality that HL players are inferior however I also see where some people are getting the "lvl 46 noobs" idea. It's not meant as an insult to HL players, it just says something about Toril players. Some people view it as "another lvl 46 player who has his head up his ass because he only knows how to get from WD to DS". I realize (even though i never played on HL) that HL was based off Toril, and also that in the "near" (god time :p) future the face of Toril will change to reflect HL. The issue is the TORIL players who go from wd to ds till they are 46 or 50 and have NO clue about how their class should be played, nor do they have the skills required to play it (yes skill practice is needed). I've heard multiple complaints in the past from lvl 45+ paladins that "paladins can't ride indoors" when their mount skill was 30 or so. So I hope that explains Big V's view of the situation a little... he's not saying that HL players have no skill, just that he's seen too many Toril players that plevel themselves and don't even scribe all their spells...

Pril
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:18 pm

You can't even consider them "noobs" to the mud, since once the areas staff are done Homelands players will stand a good chance of knowing more of the areas in the game than strictly Toril players will.
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
Vahok
Sojourner
Posts: 525
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 6:01 am
Location: guelph,ontario,canada

Postby Vahok » Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:46 pm

Yeah, my legal representitive Pril hit the nail on the head. It is in NO means a slight against HL players. I just would like them to learn the slight differences in gameplay (maps, spells, blah blah) and not be thought of as new or inexperienced. I feel 30 range is just "fair" or "fair as this will get!" to all players involved. (true mud noobs, HL players, semi-experienced, uber players).
Meatshield
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:47 am

Well, if they are actually fundamentally changing the world layout, then I agree completely with Selias.

The temporary eq idea I floated was meant to make HL players more zoneable so they could zone for real gear in the few weeks they had their temp gear.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
Krogsh
Sojourner
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:48 pm
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Postby Krogsh » Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:54 pm

Vahok wrote:...we don't need more noobs at level 46).


Call me newbie again and im gonna delete my char...

If the geography of toril will change to fit FR maps then the newbies gonna be ALL toril players, almost all homelanders know perfectly FR geography.
()xxx{;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;>
Vahok
Sojourner
Posts: 525
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 6:01 am
Location: guelph,ontario,canada

Postby Vahok » Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:07 pm

Krogsh wrote:
Vahok wrote:...we don't need more noobs at level 46).


Call me newbie again and im gonna delete my char...

If the geography of toril will change to fit FR maps then the newbies gonna be ALL toril players, almost all homelanders know perfectly FR geography.


Holy shit. Everyone take their sensitive pants off. If I wanted to call someone a noob, I will to their face. I was making a general statement. Relax. Not everything is about certain people. If you don't think my opinions apply to you, they probably don't.

Man, I really pity the imms. Trying to make everyone happy here is like beating your head against the wall, only more painful. Excuse me for trying to come up with a decent solution that will make the majority of Toril players happy. Continue to thrash about and nit pick on one sentence in a post and not get the big picture.
Meatshield
rer
Sojourner
Posts: 552
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:19 pm

Postby rer » Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:56 pm

Look, the fact of the matter is, regardless of skill and ability to play, if you start on a new mud, with a different layout, it's going to take some getting used to.

Since there is no real easy way to say "New to Toril but not new to FR type muds because they came from Homeland" except to say that the person is a newbie. I know, it sucks. The HomeLand players are as good as the Toril players, so there's really no good way to do this.

My point is, give the players who are "New to Toril but not new to FR type muds because they came from Homeland" a level 35 or 40 character so that they have a chance to learn the mud, gain skill prac, and experience all that Toril has to offer, without losing 100% of the hard work that they gained before. Not one of the players migrating from Homeland is a n00b - at least not that I have met - so please be clear on the difference.

Vahok means well, he's just Canadian, so he doesn't speak very good :P
Burmadapig
Sojourner
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:56 pm
Location: New Orleans
Contact:

Postby Burmadapig » Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:07 pm

<rant on>
Why does it even matter what the Toril only players think? They aren't the ones having to start from scratch. They aren't the ones who have lost anything.

The only thing that concerns them is that for whatever reason they seem to think that if Homeland players are given a level for level, skill value for skill value equivalent that Homelanders are getting something they didn't earn. That's the bottom line.

If that wasn't the case, then there would be a 100% emphatic YES to giving Homeland players an equivalent character.

If you think it would be unfair, so what! It doesn't affect you directly. Why begrudge Homelanders or place lesser value on their characters when they put just as much time and effort into them as you have put into your's here on Toril.

It's completely unfair to have them start on Toril with anything less than what they had on Homeland.
</rant off>

After all of this discussion, IMHO, there should have been a conversion program written to take the entire Homeland pbase files and convert them into the appropriate Toril race/class with experience/skills/etc. set. It would have been fair and no one would have any grounds to feel cheated in any way, neither Toril nor Homeland players. The kit classes could have been reverted to base classes if nothing similar existed.

I understand why this topic upsets the Homeland immortals. They did what they thought was the best thing for the mud in order to preserve the countless hours and years of work that went into it. I don't fault them for that. They are some of the best people I've ever had the pleasure of knowing. I haven't championed this cause in order to cause them any pain or heartache.

I've only tried to make a way for the players on Homeland to desire to want to come to Toril. I don't want to see those guys drop from the radar because they've lost the place they called home mud-wise. Every person who has played Toril for any significant amount of time can relate to that. Toril is our home. It wouldn't be a small thing if the tables were turned and it was Toril that went away and we were all thrust into starting from scratch on Homeland.

If I've made you mad or upset you with anything I've said, then for that I'm sorry. I'm not perfect and neither are you.

I guess we'll just have to see what the great combined staff decides to do. I'm sure that in spite of what has been said by myself and others on both sides of this issue that they will decide to do what is best for the growth and development of the mud as a whole.
Dartok
Sojourner
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:34 pm

Postby Dartok » Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:28 pm

Seems to me that the way people feel is that a Torilers time over the last few years is more valuable than someone who played Homeland before this "merger". If you really want to be fair do all the implementation of homeland code that you're gonna do and then pwipe.

I don't think it matters whether you give someone a level 46 character or not. The bulk of your time on either mud isn't spent working on exp it's building that set of equipment that you have and you get to keep. Before I went to Homeland i was pleveling evils from 1-50 in under a week to try to repopulate that side of the racewar, so unless exp has changed drastically in the last few years it's not really that hard to level here.

That being said I'd be shocked if more than 10 of the hardcore homeland players actually came here and played after reading this thread and seeing how they'll probably be treated by other players.
Vahok
Sojourner
Posts: 525
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 6:01 am
Location: guelph,ontario,canada

Postby Vahok » Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:09 pm

Dartok wrote:
That being said I'd be shocked if more than 10 of the hardcore homeland players actually came here and played after reading this thread and seeing how they'll probably be treated by other players.


I think if people actually took the time to read the posts then they would realize that old Toril players are more than willing to help out in anyway possible. In fact, I haven't seen one post where players have said they are not willing to help out. Heck, any "newbie" (I'm using quotes here since everyone is getting so savage over the term) can feel free to send any Vaho* a tell and I'll help out anyway I can.

I'm trying to make the best out of a bad sitution here, as is everyone. Let's try and stay positive about this, because in the long run, this merge will be a good thing. Basically, there isn't many options. Play the game with the hand we are dealt, assist others as able, and enjoy. We can look back and say "Things used to be like this..."We had that..." but I don't see the point. Things have changed, and change is never easy in life. I can sympathize with all newer players, whether they be HL or not. Learning or becoming comfortable on any mud is a challenge. I'm just trying to make the change as easy as possible for ALL involved. People may think this is a HL only issue which it is not. Any influx of new players effects us all as a community.

I'm done with my points. Either people want to listen to them, or they don't. The olive branch has been extended on my part, whether people choose to use it is their own business.

I suppose the phrase "When life gives you lemons, make lemonade" would be fitting. Well, here are the lemons...now what?
Meatshield
Burmadapig
Sojourner
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:56 pm
Location: New Orleans
Contact:

Postby Burmadapig » Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:15 pm

Would you trade your level 50 wearing maxed out equip to a Homelander for their bright and shiny new (possibly well-equipped through player generosity) level 1?
Vahok
Sojourner
Posts: 525
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 6:01 am
Location: guelph,ontario,canada

Postby Vahok » Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:23 pm

Burmadapig wrote:Would you trade your level 50 wearing maxed out equip to a Homelander for their bright and shiny new (possibly well-equipped through player generosity) level 1?


Yes. If wished to continue mudding. Anything after that would be a well earned bonus.
Meatshield
Deltin
Sojourner
Posts: 257
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Sackets Harbor,NY
Contact:

Postby Deltin » Fri Mar 18, 2005 5:27 pm

Dartok wrote:Seems to me that the way people feel is that a Torilers time over the last few years is more valuable than someone who played Homeland before this "merger". If you really want to be fair do all the implementation of homeland code that you're gonna do and then pwipe.

I don't think it matters whether you give someone a level 46 character or not. The bulk of your time on either mud isn't spent working on exp it's building that set of equipment that you have and you get to keep. Before I went to Homeland i was pleveling evils from 1-50 in under a week to try to repopulate that side of the racewar, so unless exp has changed drastically in the last few years it's not really that hard to level here.

That being said I'd be shocked if more than 10 of the hardcore homeland players actually came here and played after reading this thread and seeing how they'll probably be treated by other players.


Well said. I think the focus should be all the time and effort you put into characters, building them equiping them etc. and then all of a sudden all those things you worked for, spend many many hours doing and learn are suddenly gone. Also keep in mind those new zones you are going to enjoy and gain from where player tested in many cases, which involved players time etc. and whom do you think did that? How about all the bugs reported by players and other things we were asked to test and try? So yeah the HL people which I consider myself one have a certain feeling about all the things we did, being nothing but a big waste of time. If the mud was shut down and that was all, that's a different sutation. And don't give me "the toril players ptested too" because they haven't lost anything in doing so.
Sarell
Sojourner
Posts: 1681
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: brisbane, australia

Postby Sarell » Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:46 am

I'm of 2 minds.

1. If homeland players start at lvl 1, they might bring a bit of a wave of new players or even a guild up with them.

2. Homeland players will just sit in DS like everyone else and not learn anything about the game until they are lvl 50 anyhow, so instead of crowding DS just load up homeland, replicate their character manually here at level 46, and delete it from homeland to keep record. Don't hand out gear.
Arishae group-says 'mah sunray brings all the boys to the yard'
Shadow Scream
Eza
Sojourner
Posts: 309
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Postby Eza » Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:23 pm

I find it very sad that the last post in this, probably one of the most important threads around, was done 8 months ago.
Holding this in mind
That if we fall, we all fall
And we fall alone
Guardias
Sojourner
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:01 pm
Location: West Plains, Missouri
Contact:

Aye that it is

Postby Guardias » Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:18 am

I played Exile and Homeland pretty much exclusively; I dabbled in Toril, Sojourn, or whatever you called yourselves, but was never able to get into your mud. It is a very hostile seeming mud, both environment wise and player wise in some cases. I saw many good times on Homeland and quite a few bad ones. Saw the death of Exile, the birth of Homeland, and finally its death.

That is what it is at that, the 'merging' of Homeland and Toril was the final deathhroe of a mud I had a lot of time and love invested in. Toril has gained alot in this 'merger' four of the best immortals out there (maybe less now), great players (those who weathered the hostility), and zones which from what I've seen far outstrip anything you had beforehand.

Now let me say right now i have nothing against Toril; I just don't like the overall setup, but that won't keep me from trying to play here now. I'll tell you why, friends from Homeland still play, and even if i have to put up with elitist mentalities I'm gonna play.

I agree with a majority of the Homeland only characters in here, we deserve something for the time and effort we put into Homeland, but i know that we will probably be given at most a level 35-40 character and told we have been adequately compensated. I'd love to see Azog, Serinsar, or even Bronac alive and well here with their levels and eq from Homeland, but I know that will never happen; it would make too many Torilites angry. Consider this however when two businesses merge willingly one business's employees don't get fired.


My final suggestion would be to allow each Homelander w/o a major character on Toril as of the merger one of their characters from Homeland with full levels and eq. it is the middle road between the polar opposites of nothing and everything.

Thank you all and good day. Especially to you Homelanders and friendly Torilites.

Return to “Homeland Player Integration”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest