Go Go Tanking Skills

[thanuk]

< 1102h/1102H 129v/130V >
< P: std >
A vrock demon snaps into visibility.
A vrock demon sends you sprawling.
You block Urgutha Forka's attack with your shield!
< 1101h/1102H 129v/130V >
< T: Thanuk TC: few scratches E: vrock EC: few scratches P: sit >
A hezrou demon says 'I must assist my friend!'
Your image is no longer displaced.
Senen stops using a holy avenger enshrouded in light.
< 1101h/1102H 129v/130V >
< T: Thanuk TC: few scratches E: vrock EC: few scratches P: sit >
A hezrou demon says 'I must assist my friend!'
A hezrou demon misses a kick at your groin, you breathe lighter now.
Senen wields a shimmering holy sword of the planetar.
It glows brightly.
Aristan's mount misses Urgutha Forka with its charge!
< 1101h/1102H 129v/130V >
< T: Thanuk TC: few scratches E: vrock EC: few scratches P: sit >
Urgutha Forka partially deflect Aristan's lunge at it.
A hezrou demon's attack glances off your shield, but finds it's mark!
You parry a hezrou demon's lunge at you.
You partially deflect a hezrou demon's lunge at you.
Your flesh loses its stony texture.
You partially deflect a hezrou demon's lunge at you.
You parry a hezrou demon's lunge at you.
Urgutha Forka's wicked sword of pestilence emits a cloud of acid at you.
Urgutha Forka slashes you very hard.
OUCH! That really did HURT!
Urgutha Forka slashes you extremely hard.
OUCH! That really did HURT!
Urgutha Forka's attack only grazes you as you dodge aside!
Urgutha Forka slashes you hard.
You miss a vrock demon with your slash.
A vrock demon raises its wings and showers you with a cloud of spores.
You feel burning poison in your blood, the pain is intense.
A vrock demon pummels you hard.
You block a vrock demon's attack with your shield!
< 551h/1102H 129v/130V >
< T: Thanuk TC: few wounds E: vrock EC: few scratches P: sit >
Senen assists you heroically.
Twyl takes aim and begins frantically firing his rune-covered fiery Warbow of hellish fury!
Twyl fires a black-shafted elven arrow at Urgutha Forka doing little damage!
Twyl fires a black-shafted elven arrow at Urgutha Forka for a CRITICAL HIT doing little damage!.
Twyl fires a black-shafted elven arrow at Urgutha Forka for a CRITICAL HIT doing little damage!.
< 551h/1102H 129v/130V >
< T: Thanuk TC: few wounds E: vrock EC: few scratches P: sit >
Talsor enters from the south.
Kol flies in from the south.
Klandan enters from the south.
Vena enters from the south.
Sirit enters from the south.
Lazus enters from the south.
< 551h/1102H 130v/130V >
< T: Thanuk TC: few wounds E: vrock EC: few scratches P: sit >
A hezrou demon says 'I must assist my friend!'
A hezrou demon pummels you extremely hard.
< 478h/1102H 130v/130V >
< T: Thanuk TC: nasty wounds E: vrock EC: few scratches P: sit >
Klandan looks at Urgutha Forka.
< 478h/1102H 130v/130V >
< T: Thanuk TC: nasty wounds E: vrock EC: few scratches P: sit >

Lazus assists you heroically.
< 478h/1102H 130v/130V >
< T: Thanuk TC: nasty wounds E: vrock EC: few scratches P: sit >
< 478h/1102H 130v/130V >
< T: Thanuk TC: nasty wounds E: vrock EC: few scratches P: sit >
A hezrou demon says 'I must assist my friend!'
You stagger from a fearsome pummel from a hezrou demon!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
Vena starts casting an offensive spell.
< 386h/1102H 130v/130V >
< T: Thanuk TC: nasty wounds E: vrock EC: few scratches P: sit >
Sirit starts casting an offensive spell.
Pidibeple enters from the south.
< 386h/1102H 130v/130V >
< T: Thanuk TC: nasty wounds E: vrock EC: few scratches P: sit > A vicious nightmare growls at a hezrou demon.
A zealous griffon growls at a vrock demon.
You deflect a hezrou demon's blow, and strike back at a hezrou demon!
Your longsword glows dark and bites into a hezrou demon's neck.
A hezrou demon seems to be blinded!
You deflect a hezrou demon's blow, and strike back at a hezrou demon!
You miss a hezrou demon with your slash.
You parry a hezrou demon's lunge at you.
Urgutha Forka deflects Drakur's blow, and strikes back at Drakur!
You parry a hezrou demon's lunge at you.
A hezrou demon's attack only grazes you as you dodge aside!
A hezrou demon pummels you very hard.
You stagger from a fearsome pummel from a hezrou demon!
Twyl fires a black-shafted elven arrow at Urgutha Forka doing little damage!
Twyl fires a black-shafted elven arrow at Urgutha Forka doing little damage!
Twyl fires a black-shafted elven arrow at Urgutha Forka doing little damage!
A mighty pummel from a hezrou demon makes you contemplate a new career!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
A hezrou demon enshrouds you in a mist of blood with its deadly pummel!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
A hezrou demon half kills you with its mighty pummel!
YIKES! Another hit like that, and you've had it!!
You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING so much!

A hezrou demon's final blow sends you to meet your maker.
With a final blow, you feel yourself falling to the ground.
Your soul leaves your body in the cold sleep of death...
The spirits of your ancestors depart, dissipating your shield.
Your globe shimmers, and fades into the air.
Your vitality drains away.
Your magic armor fades away.

*** Welcome to Toril ***

0) Leave Toril for a Time.
1) Enter the realms of Toril.
2) See who is currently playing.
3) Read the background story.
4) Change your password.
5) Enter your character description.
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Make your choice: Wrong optio

[Dizzin]

Uhh, you got bashed on entry, your displace was very old, your *cough* stone was old, and you were going up against a pit fiend and ALL his little buddies. Which included Forka's sword proccing on you and one of the vrocks proccing poison on you.

2 rounds sounds about right for that. :P

[Thilindel]

What this shows is just how minimal maxing parry and all the other warrior skills. They beat the snot out of him :( Pretty silly Make warrior skills mean something pls! The class is pretty much depends on having some form of enchanter *roll*

[Klandal]

It is clear to me that Thanuk would have lived if Lazus didn't lag himself by assisting Nukkie immediately after entry.

Downgrade cleric melee!!!

[Pheten]

heh stand up next time nuk=)
though forkas sword proccing means jack, hooray for acid blast

[Yayaril]

8)

Just face it, Thanuk. You suck at tanking. Frankly, that's the way it should be.

[Ashiwi]

Let's face it, Thanuk just sucks.

[Eilistraee]

though forkas sword proccing means jack, hooray for acid blast

double hooray for assumptions *wink*

- Reworked Pestilence proc.

[thanuk]

Uhh, you got bashed on entry, your displace was very old, your *cough* stone was old, and you were going up against a pit fiend and ALL his little buddies. Which included Forka's sword proccing on you and one of the vrocks proccing poison on you.

2 rounds sounds about right for that. :P

Ok i got bashed, but the spells going out are the point I'm trying to make here. 2nd of all, I wasn't going up against a pit fiend and all his little buddies, cuz if you'll notice I died so fast that only 3 of the 5 hezrou even had time to assist. So its me against Forka, herzou and a vrock. I didn't even last 2 rounds. I took 1 round from forka, 1 round from a vrock, and 1 round from each of 3 hezrou demons. Full hps to dead. That's balanced?

[thanuk]

8)

Just face it, Thanuk. You suck at tanking. Frankly, that's the way it should be.

Let's face it, Thanuk just sucks.

Speaking of sucks, hows your guild doing?

[Dizzin]

I notice 4 assisting, eventually. And right, you lasted a round and a half. Single tanking a pitfiend, a vrock, and 2 hezrou demons, which turned to 4 hezrou in the last round.

I dont mind if you upgrade tank skills enough to last MAYBE 1 more round against those odds. But frankly, your log just proves that you dont fight the top tier of demonkind without some magely assistance. Maybe if you could have stopped Forka's sword from owning you, you'd have done better, since him by himself appears to have dropped you 500 hp or so in 1 round. But I'm sure Forka is specifically intended to be a badass ala Bel.

So yes, shockingly, it strikes me as balanced that you, a wussy little barbarian got owned by a demonlord with nothing but your sword and your shield to protect you. :P

[thanuk]

I wish I had the log of a few days ago when we did Forka for Dartan. I don't think I went below 850 hps the entire fight.

The point is this. I walk in with full spells, then "the top tier of demonkind" can't even touch me. I walk in without them, and I don't even last long enough for Forka to get 2 rounds in on me. It's bullshit. Why even bother practicing skills? Why even have them? I don't last any longer than any mage would've in the same situation. In fact, I might have died faster than our invoker did when he aread them on entry earlier. Warrior is the only class in this entire game who's sole purpose is granted to them by the spells of other characters, and I'm getting pretty sick of it. If I can't tank any better than a mage without spells, then let me do some damage. If I can't do any damage, then let me tank decently without needing 2 supporting classes to even survive a round of combat. But this PC elemental bullshit has to go.

[Pheten]

though forkas sword proccing means jack, hooray for acid blast

- Reworked Pestilence proc.

Hrm was my understanding after the rework that the proc was the same, guess not, gjob, hope it lives up to what it should be=)

-phet

[Dizzin]

I have to agree that a mage in that situation prolly would have lasted about as long as you did. And I also agree that a mage with just scales or displace would have lasted significantly longer. And I'm all for dropping defence spelll effectiveness by 20% and upping tank skills the corresponding 20% to compensate. However, that 20% still isn't gonna save you in that situation. I still say you would have died in 2 rounds b/c Forka still hadn't gotten his hits on you in the round you died.

I personally think no matter what they do to "balance" melee, no one's going to be happy. I as a mage am NOT gonna enjoy seeing my displace lose ANOTHER 20% effectivity, and warriors are STILL gonna bitch that they cant tank a pit fiend for 10 rounds without breaking a nail.

So good luck with that Shev!

[thanuk]

And I'm all for dropping defence spelll effectiveness by 20% and upping tank skills the corresponding 20% to compensate. However, that 20% still isn't gonna save you in that situation. I still say you would have died in 2 rounds b/c Forka still hadn't gotten his hits on you in the round you died.

Doesn't really matter what you say though. If my skills were 20% better than they are now I might have saved against some of his attacks the round before. Fact is you don't know what would've happened, because it didn't happen. What did happen is my spells dropped and I went down faster than your mother at happy hour, just like every other friggin time spells drop.

I personally think no matter what they do to "balance" melee, no one's going to be happy. I as a mage am NOT gonna enjoy seeing my displace lose ANOTHER 20% effectivity, and warriors are STILL gonna bitch that they cant tank a pit fiend for 10 rounds without breaking a nail.

So good luck with that Shev!

Yeah well I didn't enjoy watching my tanking get nerfed to hell to give enchanters something to do with themselves, and I didn't enjoy watching my damage get nerfed to hell so that casters could have more damage spells. At some point, the caster side is gonna have to suck it up and deal with a little "balancing" too, because melee has pretty much balanced itself out of any semblance of usefulness to make room for casters.

[Dizzin]

Sounds good to me! Remove all melee classes @once. They just get in the way anyways. And with them gone.. no more busted sneak/hide through zones, and no more ranger whining! And no more mounted problems. No more complaining about how 1 avenger is so much more powerful than the other!

Alas for a perfect world. :(

[thanuk]

Sounds good to me! Remove all melee classes @once. They just get in the way anyways. And with them gone.. no more busted sneak/hide through zones, and no more ranger whining! And no more mounted problems. No more complaining about how 1 avenger is so much more powerful than the other!

Alas for a perfect world. :(

God I hope all the evilrace warriors read this and punish you mightily.

[Mitharx]

Our guild really sucks. We got lessons from Thanuk's mom.

[Ashiwi]

8)

Just face it, Thanuk. You suck at tanking. Frankly, that's the way it should be.

Let's face it, Thanuk just sucks.

Speaking of sucks, hows your guild doing?

Still hanging in there. How's that one you started out in... ummm... sheesh, I'm having problems remembering the name, help me out here.

[Gura]

gonna agree with diz on this one. forka isnt some pod who's not gonna hurt you. some mobs are supposed to kick the shit out of us hence the need for clerics and mages. granted melee needs to be upgraded on a solo basis...but when tanking 3 or 4 mobs while bashed with no spells u shouldnt be complaining about dieing in 2 rounds. sorry nuk. if im not mistaken there are severe penalties for being bashed in combat and you can almsot blame yourself for going into combat with a stone and fading displace.

[thanuk]

Still hanging in there. How's that one you started out in... ummm... sheesh, I'm having problems remembering the name, help me out here.

Alliance of Balance? I dunno they kicked me out when I called the sisterhood guild house a brothel, because your guildie rylan was p-whipped. But thats almost a decade ago now.

[thanuk]

gonna agree with diz on this one. forka isnt some pod who's not gonna hurt you. some mobs are supposed to kick the shit out of us hence the need for clerics and mages. granted melee needs to be upgraded on a solo basis...but when tanking 3 or 4 mobs while bashed with no spells u shouldnt be complaining about dieing in 2 rounds. sorry nuk. if im not mistaken there are severe penalties for being bashed in combat and you can almsot blame yourself for going into combat with a stone and fading displace.

Your missing the point, which is that Forka IS some pod who isn't gonna hurt me, as long as I have spells up. That's the entire point, all that matters is if the spells are up. The skills mean absolutely nothing. And lets be serious here, it doesn't matter if i was bashed or not, I still would've died because I didn't have spells up.

What I think is that I should survive that. I should survive the bashed round, and then the 2nd round to stand. After those two rounds i should have between 50-200 hps left. I also think that if I had walked in with full spells, I shouldn't take 0 damage until they fall, cuz Forka isn't some pod who isn't gonna hurt you right? You should still get hit with a full spellup and take damage. But you should also be able to survive without the spells, at least for a little while. And no, a round and a half does not qualify as a little while.

But that's not the way it works. Right now, you walk in with full spells, go unhit for a few rounds until blur drops. Then you get hit a little until displace drops. Then you pray to god you have enough hps to survive the brutal beating you take until the mages can recast their spells. You, as the warrior, have absolutely 0 influence on whether or not you tank effectively. All that matters is how good your enchanter is, and if your illusionist is paying attention or spamming offense.

[Ashiwi]

Rylan was pwhipped??? I can't imagine it...

[fotex]

It is clear to me that Thanuk would have lived if Lazus didn't lag himself by assisting Nukkie immediately after entry.

Downgrade cleric melee!!!

Nah, Senen could have rescued once instead of lagging himself by assisting Nuk immediately after wielding his sword.

Downgrade paladin melee!

[rylan]

I can't imaginge it either.

[thanuk]

I can't imaginge it either.

Don't worry man, I forgive you. I mean shit, as ugly as you are, you gotta hold on to whatever you can get, even if she was a guy in RL.

:wink:

[Gura]

Forka might be some pod who isnt going to hit you when you have a fullspellup but if you really think about it...forka is fighting 2 or 3 people. 1 you and your tanking ability and 2 the mages protective spells that have been casted on you. Yes being bashed does matter because it does decrease tanking ability. You prolly lose about 1/4 of your ability just from sitting or being flat on your back trying to defend against 3 mobs especially 3 level 50+ demons. Anyway if you want your 50-200hps back take into consideration that pestilence..with its reworked proc could prolly do 50-200hps of damage. Seeing how the proc has nothing to do with your tanking ability that might be the answer you seek.

[thanuk]

Banzai! To the rescue...

< 849h/1096H 130v/130V >
< E: djinn EC: pretty hurt P: std >
A fire giant warrior enshrouds Birile in a mist of blood with his deadly slash!
< 849h/1096H 130v/130V >
< E: djinn EC: pretty hurt P: std > Birile is nearly slain by the force of a fire giant warrior's slash!
A fire giant warrior's attack only grazes you as you dodge aside!
You parry a fire giant warrior's lunge at you.
Birile slumps to the ground.
A fire giant warrior neatly beheads Birile.
Birile is dead! R.I.P.
Birile slumps to the ground.
Your blood freezes as you hear the rattling death cry of Birile.
Birile stops singing abruptly.
Birile has left the group.
Jalahon has left the group.
A frost giant warrior pounds Lazus very hard.
Aristan maneuvers his mount to avoid a fire giant warrior's attack!
A fire giant warrior switches targets..
A fire giant warrior's attack glances off your shield, but finds it's mark!
A fire giant warrior slashes you very hard.
OUCH! That really did HURT!
You partially deflect a fire giant warrior's lunge at you.
Your dragon scales melt back into your regular flesh.
A mighty slash from a fire giant warrior makes you contemplate a new career!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
You stagger from a fearsome slash from a fire giant warrior!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
A fire giant warrior switches targets..
Aristan's eyes glow blood red as power from his sword courses through his
body. Bloody wounds close before your eyes as they are healed by his
Unholy Avenger.
Aristan maneuvers his mount and is only grazed by a fire giant elite's attack!
A fire giant elite switches targets..
Grehjan slashes Aristan extremely hard.
A fire giant elite switches targets..
You stagger from a fearsome slash from a fire giant warrior!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
A mighty slash from a fire giant warrior makes you contemplate a new career!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
A fire giant warrior switches targets..
A fire giant warrior enshrouds you in a mist of blood with his deadly slash!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
A fire giant warrior half kills you with his mighty slash!
YIKES! Another hit like that, and you've had it!!
You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING so much!

A fire giant warrior switches targets..
The world starts spinning, and your ears are ringing!
A djinn mercenary smashes your throat, gasping and choking, you descend into darkness.
With a final blow, you feel yourself falling to the ground.
Your soul leaves your body in the cold sleep of death...
Your form stops blurring.
Your form stops blurring.

*** Welcome to Toril ***

0) Leave Toril for a Time.
1) Enter the realms of Toril.
2) See who is currently playing.
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*******************************************

3 partial blocks and 1 parry. Go Go tanking skills!

[Sarell]

< 582h/987H 130v/130V >
< T: Ladak TC: few wounds E: fire EC: few scratches >
You parry a fire giant warrior's lunge at you.
You parry a fire giant warrior's lunge at you.
A fire giant warrior misses you with his slash.
You parry a fire giant elite's lunge at you.
A fire giant elite barely slashes you.
A fire giant elite misses you with his slash.
You parry a fire giant warrior's lunge at you.
A fire giant warrior misses you with his slash.
A fire giant warrior misses you with his slash.
You parry a fire giant warrior's lunge at you.
You dodge a fire giant warrior's vicious attack.
A fire giant warrior misses you with his slash.
You dodge a fire giant warrior's vicious attack.
A fire giant warrior misses you with his slash.
You parry a fire giant warrior's lunge at you.
You deflect a fire giant warrior's blow, and strike back at a fire giant warrior!
You barely crush a fire giant warrior.
A fire giant warrior misses you with his slash.
You deflect a fire giant warrior's blow, and strike back at a fire giant warrior!
You barely crush a fire giant warrior.
You deflect a fire giant warrior's blow, and strike back at a fire giant warrior!
You barely crush a fire giant warrior.
A fire giant warrior misses you with his slash.
A fire giant warrior misses you with his slash.
You deflect a fire giant warrior's blow, and strike back at a fire giant warrior!
You barely crush a fire giant warrior.
A fire giant warrior misses you with his slash.
You parry a fire giant warrior's lunge at you.
You parry Surtur's lunge at you.
Surtur barely slashes you.
You parry Surtur's lunge at you.
Surtur starts casting an offensive spell.
You parry a fire giant warrior's lunge at you.
You dodge a fire giant warrior's vicious attack.
A fire giant warrior misses you with his slash.
You parry a fire giant warrior's lunge at you.
You deflect a fire giant warrior's blow, and strike back at a fire giant warrior!
You barely crush a fire giant warrior.
A fire giant warrior misses you with his slash.
You parry a fire giant warrior's lunge at you.
A fire giant warrior misses you with his slash.
A fire giant warrior misses you with his slash.
A fire giant elite misses you with his smash.
A fire giant elite misses you with his smash.
You parry a fire giant elite's lunge at you.
You parry a fire giant warrior's lunge at you.
You deflect a fire giant warrior's blow, and strike back at a fire giant warrior!
You barely crush a fire giant warrior.
You deflect a fire giant warrior's blow, and strike back at a fire giant warrior!
You barely crush a fire giant warrior.
You parry a fire giant warrior's lunge at you.
You dodge a fire giant warrior's vicious attack.
Your dragon scales melt back into your regular flesh.
gsay "-=*DRAGONSCALES OUT*=-
You gasp in pain from a fire giant warrior's awesome slash!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
A fire giant warrior dodges your futile attack.
You barely crush a fire giant warrior.
You barely crush a fire giant warrior.
You parry a fire giant warrior's lunge at you.
You deflect a fire giant warrior's blow, and strike back at a fire giant warrior!
You barely crush a fire giant warrior.
You stagger from a fearsome slash from a fire giant warrior!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
You parry a fire giant warrior's lunge at you.
A fire giant warrior misses you with his slash.
A fire giant warrior misses you with his slash.
You parry a fire giant warrior's lunge at you.
A fire giant warrior misses you with his slash.
A fire giant warrior misses you with his slash.
A fire giant warrior knocks you backwards several feet with a powerful kick! Ouch!
You parry a member of the Smoking Beard battalion's lunge at you.
A member of the Smoking Beard battalion misses yoflee
u with his smash.
Thanuk group-says 'Blur Out'

< 283h/987H 130v/130V >
< T: Ladak TC: pretty hurt E: fire EC: few scratches >
Tokivunel group-says 'jesus :p'



(pre tanking changes, wielding 2handed ironwood tree)....

[Dizzin]

Yeah, that degrading of tanking skills happens way to fast for PCs. And not nearly fast enough on mobs.

[Yayaril]

8)

I have an idea- why not take multiple tanks to tank multiple mobs?

[thanuk]

8)

I have an idea- why not take multiple tanks to tank multiple mobs?

So what we need 1 warrior for every mob now? Go back to taco bell.

[Gurns]

So what we need 1 warrior for every mob now?

Hmm. It's a thought. Pheten had a defensive idea in some other thread. That and this has inspired an idea -- might be good, might suck, this is off the top of my head.

New warrior skill: "target mobname" which really means "I become the target of mobname". The idea is, the warrior gets in the mob's face, and forces that mob to confront/fight him. While the warrior is targeting the mob, that mob can't switch off him. (Well, whether the mob can switch off him depends on warrior's skill.)

If the warrior rescues another PC (obviously, rescues from some different mob), the targeted mob is now free to switch.

How does this help Thanuk's problem? It doesn't, penicillin is...Oh, the warrior skills problem. What also needs to be in the code is some consideration of how many mobs the warrior is fighting, probably more than there is now. So if a warrior is fighting one mob, the warrior's mad defensive skillz are fully in play. Sure, a demonlord can still whup him, but even a demonlord would need a little time to take down Thanuk, solo. 3 rounds, maybe? Vs. an unspelled Nukkie? Maybe 5 -- a trained warrior should have some survivability, even vs. demons, especially since the demonlord might get barely scratched during those 5 rounds.

But if the warrior is being beat on by two mobs, his defensive skills are degraded. Three mobs, degraded more. Etc. Main tank charges into a gatehouse, he damn well better be spelled up, because he ain't gonna last otherwise. I'm thinking a severe decline in skills would be balanced -- fight one mob, defensive skills work better than now. 2 mobs, about as good as now. 3 mobs, worse than now.

A highly skiled warrior should be able to "target" multiple mobs. Nukkie is so big and ugly and insulting, sure, he can get several mobs to fight him. Of course, targeting multiple mobs is much less effective -- all of them are more likely to switch off the target. And of course, targeting several mobs is fighting several mobs, so defensive skills are degraded.

For even more fun (and to demand better player skills or triggers), can make it so that if a warrior has targeted a mob, and the mob switches, and the warrior rescues, that rescue has no lag or much less lag. But if the warrior has a mob targeted, and rescues some from a non-targeted mob, rescue lag is longer than it is now.

[thanuk]

Its an interesting idea, Gurnsie, but I don't really like it. Here's why.

The way the highlevel zones work now, its really common to be fighting at least 5 mobs. that's like no big deal, not even a big zone fight anymore to be taking on 5 at once. So to have our defensive skills degrade while only fighting 3 to worse than it is now would just get us slaughtered. The concept is good, but considering how often and really par for the course 5-10 mob fights are, that number has to be higher if we're going to survive. Not to mention when demons summon 3 level 35 minor demons, my defensive skills degrade against the minor demons, and then the summoning demon beats the shit outta me cuz I used all my defensive checks protecting myself from level 30 mobs. That's just whack.

As far as messing with the lag on rescue...do you want to die? The only way I could see doing this is if you changed rescue so that if you rescue a person, you rescue them from all mobs that are attacking them. So if gurns is tanking 5 mobs, and I rescue gurns, i rescue him from all 5 mobs, and I get 5 rounds of lag. But adding any extra lag to rescue for 1 person for 1 mob would just prevent warriors from ever using this skill.

[Gurns]

The way the highlevel zones work now, its really common to be fighting at least 5 mobs. that's like no big deal, not even a big zone fight anymore to be taking on 5 at once. So to have our defensive skills degrade while only fighting 3 to worse than it is now would just get us slaughtered..

In part, that's just a balance/tweaking issue. When do skills degrade, how badly.

But my thought was that, most full groups have, or should have, 3 or 4 warrior-types (I include pallys/antis and rangers). So if each of them takes a mob, then in most fights, each is usually fighting one mob. They can handle their one mob OK, especially with a few spells, while the guy stuck fighting 2 needs more spell help. And if the warriors are unskilled, or the group doesn't have a plan, someone gets stuck tanking 3 or 4 mobs. And yeah, I think if you're fighting 3 or more mobs, you should go down FAST, IF you are without spells.

I'd probably suggest a downgrading of spell power, too, although what would be the best would be a downgrading of "defensive spells cast on someone fighting". So spell ups would keep the same strength, allowing a "Thanuk E" and him surviving long enough for the rest of the group to get there. But during a battle, defensive spells cast are a little weaker (mages can't concentrate as well), so the tanks skills -- and the tactics and skills of the other warriors in the group -- become relatively more important.

Not to mention when demons summon 3 level 35 minor demons, my defensive skills degrade against the minor demons, and then the summoning demon beats the shit outta me cuz I used all my defensive checks protecting myself from level 30 mobs. That's just whack.

Good point. So a better structure for degrading is that my defense against the "target" is always the best, and my defense against "non-targets" is degraded. You're keeping a careful eye on the demonlord, trying to block his every blow, so the minor demons are more likely to hit you, but that's the way it goes.

As far as messing with the lag on rescue...do you want to die? The only way I could see doing this is if you changed rescue so that if you rescue a person, you rescue them from all mobs that are attacking them.

Again, it's the multiple warrior thing. If there are 3 warriors in my group, each rescuing against the mob(s) he's targeting, then the only nasty problem is the 6 or 8 or 10 mob fights. Longer lag might be problematic, yeah. Probably the way to implement is without longer lag, and see if "targeting" (which, besides giving the tank more play for his defensive skills, is a "pre-rescue rescue") is too strong.

So if ... I rescue gurns

*sneer* Like I'd ever get in that lime green pimpmobile, even to save my life.

[thanuk]

In part, that's just a balance/tweaking issue. When do skills degrade, how badly.

But my thought was that, most full groups have, or should have, 3 or 4 warrior-types (I include pallys/antis and rangers). So if each of them takes a mob, then in most fights, each is usually fighting one mob. They can handle their one mob OK, especially with a few spells, while the guy stuck fighting 2 needs more spell help. And if the warriors are unskilled, or the group doesn't have a plan, someone gets stuck tanking 3 or 4 mobs. And yeah, I think if you're fighting 3 or more mobs, you should go down FAST, IF you are without spells.

Well that's where your wrong. Groups usually do have 2-4 tanks. But they can't all be tanking a mob each, it doesn't work that way. If you have 3 warriors, each tanking 1 mob each, then you need 3 enchanters, because all their spells are gonna drop at the same time. But if you have 3 warriors and 3 enchanters (and good luck finding 3 ungrouped enchanters), then you also need at least 2 clerics, and thats an 8 man group right there without any utility or damage classes.

What usually happens is you end up with 3 tanks and 1 enchanter, maybe 2 enchanters if your lucky, and sometimes a chanter and an elementalist which is fairly common. What happens then is 1 tank gets embody, and they are the main tank. He gets full spells and full attention, and is expected to tank the bulk of the mobs of the zone. The other 2 tanks still rescue, but they don't always get the spell loving and the MT will often end up rescuing mobs off them. The other 2 tanks are basically there to do stuff like bash and shieldpunch, watch for and engage incoming mobs, target the right mob for the melee damage to assist(back when targetting mattered anyway). They do tank, but 1 tank always ends up doing most of the tanking. That dynamic can't really change unless there's a massive influx of level 50 enchanters, which I don't see happening any time soon.

I'd probably suggest a downgrading of spell power, too, although what would be the best would be a downgrading of "defensive spells cast on someone fighting". So spell ups would keep the same strength, allowing a "Thanuk E" and him surviving long enough for the rest of the group to get there. But during a battle, defensive spells cast are a little weaker (mages can't concentrate as well), so the tanks skills -- and the tactics and skills of the other warriors in the group -- become relatively more important.

That's an interesting idea, and makes sense too. But it can't happen with defensive skills as they are currently, gonna need to turn up those warrior knobs for this to be feasable.

Good point. So a better structure for degrading is that my defense against the "target" is always the best, and my defense against "non-targets" is degraded. You're keeping a careful eye on the demonlord, trying to block his every blow, so the minor demons are more likely to hit you, but that's the way it goes.

Well yes and no. With melee damage in its current state, targetting has fallen off. At this point, in my opinion, switching targets is not worth the 2 rounds of lag it takes to make sure you are targetting the big demon instead of his little helpers. You dont do any damage, so who cares who you are attacking, follow me? Also there's different ways of looking at things, because sometimes its better to kill the small mobs first and leave the big guy for last. So you wouldn't be targetting the big demon with your attacks, but your still focused on his attacks on you. Either way I think it would be a bitch to code.

Again, it's the multiple warrior thing. If there are 3 warriors in my group, each rescuing against the mob(s) he's targeting, then the only nasty problem is the 6 or 8 or 10 mob fights. Longer lag might be problematic, yeah. Probably the way to implement is without longer lag, and see if "targeting" (which, besides giving the tank more play for his defensive skills, is a "pre-rescue rescue") is too strong.

But you say that like 6 or 8 or 10 mob fights are rare, when in reality fighting less than 4 mobs at a time is rare. A whole group against 1 big mob is O.J. Simpson dude, yesterday's news. You can't gear a classes abilities toward a situation that almost never comes up, or else we're all rangers in the end. Sure, it makes logical sense that a warrior should tank really well against 1 mob, and worse against more and more. But the game has evolved to the point where you get a 15 man group against anywhere from 6-20 mobs. The difference is that only 2-4 people in the PC group can tank, whereas every single mob they are fighting can tank. There's no caster mobs out there that die in 1 round after their dragonscales fall. So while mobs generally will only tank 1-3 PC's at a time, PC's commonly tank a great deal more mobs. What you'll have with these changes is the same thing you have now, only more extreme. Mobs will tank more effectively then ever, further downgrading melee, but PC tanks will tank a good deal worse, again further downgrading melee.

So if ... I rescue gurns

*sneer* Like I'd ever get in that lime green pimpmobile, even to save my life.

Why not? You can sit next to YOUR MOM! OH!

cheer me

[ssar]

Warrior is the only class in this entire game who's sole purpose is granted to them by the spells of other characters, and I'm getting pretty sick of it. If I can't tank any better than a mage without spells, then let me do some damage. If I can't do any damage, then let me tank decently without needing 2 supporting classes to even survive a round of combat. But this PC elemental bullshit has to go.

Actually, Thanuk does have a point.
Mogr is tending to suffer from this recently also - both ac reduction/tanking skills seemingly not blocking enough sometimes, AND damage/good2h weapons downgraded etc.
Not to mention having to re-evaluate a whole heap of eq issues to try and re-attain similar str/hitroll/ac/prots.. Ooh my aching head!

[othelil]

So this has got to be one of... I don't know, at least six threads rolling around with upgrade tank ideas. How long till something happens or gets addressed by a staff member, I wonder?

*checks his watch*

[thanuk]

So this has got to be one of... I don't know, at least six threads rolling around with upgrade tank ideas. How long till something happens or gets addressed by a staff member, I wonder?

*checks his watch*

Shevarash has been addressing warrior issues for about 6 months now. He changed the combat system to allow partial blocks, he played with our skills, fixed headbutt and hitall, some other stuff. I can't say they haven't addressed issues. I think the changes haven't been enough to make a real impact; headbutt and hitall make warriors a little more fun to play with, and are useful skills in some situations but haven't really effected performance overall. So nobody has the right to say that they aren't trying, because they definately are. It's just the stuff they are doing isn't working:)

[Gurns]

Well that's where your wrong. Groups usually do have 2-4 tanks. But they can't all be tanking a mob each, it doesn't work that way. If you have 3 warriors, each tanking 1 mob each, then you need 3 enchanters, because all their spells are gonna drop at the same time....

What happens then is 1 tank gets embody, and they are the main tank. He gets full spells and full attention, and is expected to tank the bulk of the mobs of the zone. The other 2 tanks still rescue, but they don't always get the spell loving and the MT will often end up rescuing mobs off them. The other 2 tanks are basically there to do stuff like bash and shieldpunch, watch for and engage incoming mobs, target the right mob for the melee damage to assist(back when targetting mattered anyway). They do tank, but 1 tank always ends up doing most of the tanking. That dynamic can't really change unless there's a massive influx of level 50 enchanters, which I don't see happening any time soon.

Not a problem. Recall the "uping the effectiveness of defensive skills". So the main tank has a couple mobs on him, and needs spells, just like now. The secondary tanks have 1 mob on each of them, and their 133t defensive skillz mean they don't need spells. Or only a little spell help, if they wimps. So for most fights -- and most mud fights are still one or a coupla mobs -- only one enchanter, and not a very good one at that.

For the big fights -- and I agree with the intent of your statement, most zones have one and plenty of zones have several of these -- against more than 4 or 5 mobs? Well, the lazy solution is to find 3 enchanters, and I agree, where you going to find those? A hard solution is to find one of the best enchanters, someone who is able to keep 3 tanks scaled and 3 tanks + 2 hitters globed and hasted. I've seen it done, so you can't say it's impossible.

And by dividing up tanking responsibilities, and given out some embodies and stones, I think any fight I've seen is quite doable with the usual group, even without one of the best enchanters. Some warriors take 3 or 4 mobs, some take 1 or 2. The ones with 1 or 2 mobs need no spells or little spells. The ones with 3 or 4 get the most spells and attention from casters. The warriors might have to work a little smarter -- when to rescue another warrior might be a little more complicated. The casters might have to work a little better.

I'd probably suggest a downgrading of spell power, too

That's an interesting idea, and makes sense too. But it can't happen with defensive skills as they are currently, gonna need to turn up those warrior knobs for this to be feasable.

Right. That's part of the plan. Didn't I say that? Hmm, maybe not here, or maybe only implied. I agree, warriors fighting one mob need to do better than they do now. Warriors fighting two mobs, maybe about the same. Warriors fighting three, you need spells or you're dead fast. Again, not sure where the numbers would fall, exactly, and obviously it depends on just how nasty the mobs are.

Good point. So a better structure for degrading is that my defense against the "target" is always the best, and my defense against "non-targets" is degraded. You're keeping a careful eye on the demonlord, trying to block his every blow, so the minor demons are more likely to hit you, but that's the way it goes.

Well yes and no. With melee damage in its current state, targetting has fallen off.

Sorry, talking about my version of target (damn, I shoulda picked a different word). As in "warrior is the target of". So if you're in a room with 3 mobs, and one is nasty and the others aren't, you become the target of the nasty mob, so your best defense is against it.

But you say that like 6 or 8 or 10 mob fights are rare, when in reality fighting less than 4 mobs at a time is rare. A whole group against 1 big mob is O.J. Simpson dude, yesterday's news. You can't gear a classes abilities toward a situation that almost never comes up

Nah, most fights are 4 or fewer mobs at a time. It's just all the boss fights are large. Anyway, I think what I'm suggesting would work, even for the 10 or 12 mob fights. I agree to the extent that the 10 or 12 mob fights would now become dangerous again. Frankly, I think a room with 8 or 10 giants, or 6 or 8 ogres should be a dangerous fight. And not "ho, hum, spellup, charge, next!"

So if ... I rescue gurns

*sneer* Like I'd ever get in that lime green pimpmobile, even to save my life.

Why not? You can sit next to YOUR MOM! OH!
[/quote]
Is that where she went? Man, I knew she was scrapping the bottom of the barrel, but this is even worse than I thought! Mom! It's Nukkie! Don't be seduced by the fuzzy dice!

[thanuk]

Nah, most fights are 4 or fewer mobs at a time. It's just all the boss fights are large. Anyway, I think what I'm suggesting would work, even for the 10 or 12 mob fights. I agree to the extent that the 10 or 12 mob fights would now become dangerous again. Frankly, I think a room with 8 or 10 giants, or 6 or 8 ogres should be a dangerous fight. And not "ho, hum, spellup, charge, next!"

I definately disagree here. In clouds, just on the grid you fight 4 mob groups, and your lucky if you only fight 1 group at a time. Then there's gatehouse entrances to each compound with 10 mobs, then big fights within the compounds with 8+ mobs, and that's all before you get to the boss fights. In scorps, manscorpion squads are running around everywhere. Muspelhiem is the same, every fight it at least 5 mobs except on the grid, where you usually end up fighting 5 mobs or so anyway because they all listen and come to battle. CC is a crapshoot but its rare to see less than 4 mobs at a time. Jot has tons of 5+ mob fights. Avernus, BC? Forget it, they're all 5+ mob fights. Even ET is all multiple mob fights except if you lure the guards with a rogue, but the rest of them are. MD fights are all 3 mobs, and all the mobs summon more mobs, so they turn into 20 mob fights pretty often and pretty easily. TTF is the same. Pretty much every highlevel zone is the same.

Is that where she went? Man, I knew she was scrapping the bottom of the barrel, but this is even worse than I thought! Mom! It's Nukkie! Don't be seduced by the fuzzy dice!

She can't help it. It drives her crazy when I put on my robe and wizard hat.

[belleshel]

As far as messing with the lag on rescue...do you want to die? The only way I could see doing this is if you changed rescue so that if you rescue a person, you rescue them from all mobs that are attacking them. So if gurns is tanking 5 mobs, and I rescue gurns, i rescue him from all 5 mobs, and I get 5 rounds of lag. But adding any extra lag to rescue for 1 person for 1 mob would just prevent warriors from ever using this skill.

New command: Shove or something.

Thanuk's mom is being attached by 5 Disciples of Rylan.
Thanuk growls and shove’s his mother out of danger.
Thanuk’s mom is now on the ground (bash effect), and Thanuk is now fighting the 5 Disciples of Rylan.

Course this has nothing to do with tanking but is a command I always thought warrior types should have. No extra lag for the warrior, but it could backfire...

A low skill might result in 0 rescues, or some % of the total. (Thanuk sucks so only 3 Disciples are fighting him now and his mom is on the floor with the other 2 Disciples).

[Gurns]

I definately disagree here. In clouds, just on the grid you fight 4 mob groups, and your lucky if you only fight 1 group at a time.

Skilled, not lucky. (No, not me, the group leader.) Though even skilled, if you get unlucky you can fight more than one group. As I recall, though, aren't there some single mobs?

Then there's gatehouse entrances to each compound with 10 mobs

Agree. And those should be "on your toes fights".

In scorps, manscorpion squads are running around everywhere.

Yup. And back in the day, scorps was THE zone, because of it.

Muspelhiem is the same, every fight it at least 5 mobs except on the grid, where you usually end up fighting 5 mobs or so anyway because they all listen and come to battle.

Last time I was there -- a couple days ago -- and I remember one and two and three mob fights. And if we were fighting and one walked in, well, the first was dead before the third mob walked in on us, so I count that as a 2 mob fight, just with different 2 mobs in the room at various times.

CC is a crapshoot but its rare to see less than 4 mobs at a time.

Again, last time I was there, not for us.

Jot has tons of 5+ mob fights.

Say what? Some walk-ins, so you get the possiblity of "one or two mobs at a time" fight where you kill three mobs, maybe. Mobs wander around mostly solo, maybe you hit a room with two, maybe not. All the emissarys or whatever? Coulda sworn those were single mob fights. There are, what, 4 rooms with 4 or more mobs in 'em? Gatehouse, gatehouse, Thrym, Loki. Am I forgetting some? Out of potentially dozens of fights?

I have the feeling, Nukkie, that you've been zoning in groups where everything turns into a multiple mob fight, because (a) you can do it that way without mass deaths, and (b) it's faster. So sure, have the lurer bring four or five mobs at once, jump a patrol without worrying if another patrol is going to walk in, don't worry if there are a couple of mobs that will walk in if you attack now.... Maybe there will be an extra death or two, but non-stop killing is the way to get through the zone fast. Non-stop killing is a strategy -- it's not a "the zones are all constructed to force those fights on you." Some zones are, but I think most fights in most zones aren't.

I agree, with what I'm proposing, multiple mob fights would be tougher. Folks might have to worry about bringing in too many mobs, or other mobs walking in, and so on. Boss fights would have to be more carefully planned and executed. Or the group would suffer the mass death consequences. As, IMHO, it should be.

[Tasan]

When was the last time you grouped with less than 3 invokers...

...feh

T