TorilMUD Forums

Please post comments on Toril 2.0 here instead of shitting up the announcements thread that should be used for... wait for it... announcements!

I'm waiting to see what they're going to do to rogues. The thought that they might be split into the multiple types of class (assassin, thief, etc) gives me some cause for concern.

No doubt there are a lot of things going on behind the scenes, testing, re-testing, testing some more, real life, etc.... I really appreciate that you work on something like this for free for the people of this mud.

Any way a date could be given for a beta? Something solid for people to put in their calendars?

I personally know of two old school sojourners (pre 2k) who are waiting to roll new characters when 2.0 rolls out.

I would also like to roll a new char but I am awaiting info on the class customization and races info before I do anything drastic like spend the next two months grinding along exping :)

Thanks,

It's been 2 weeks since an update. Discuss.

Dalar wrote:It's been 2 weeks since an update. Discuss.

http://www.torilmud.dyndns.org/phpBB2/v ... hp?t=18528

I imagine he's been a bit busy these past couple weeks. :P

Just a general question about the rerolling stats. Are all characters going to be able to reroll their stats or only those pre-newroller? Should I start rerolling now to try to get the best stats possible or is it gonna be handled differently? Thanks.

Every existing character will have the chance to retool their characters, without any need to reroll or recreate.

Thanks!

I hope there's some "advanced concepts" revolving around this whole "str determines hitroll" thing. Not only does it not make any logical sense, unless strong, wild swings are the only swings that really count, it gives the stronger races the advantage in both hit percent AND damage numbers.

For now I'll assume that the balance is going to follow somewhere along the line in another form.

Don't worry Ashiwi. :)

8)

Ashiwi, if this pushes the game any closer to 3.0 or 3.5, then the disparity in strength between races is going to become trivial. If it reflects DnD at all, elves will be just as strong as humans.

Never played 3.0. My memories of D&D are those of rules-bogged nightmares of numbers and schematics. You spent more time working out the calculus than you did enjoying the game, it seemed.

I remember once I had ko'd some shopkeeper who was selling some +3 weapon. The DM was being a tard and wanted me to roll a d20 and some percentile dice because I said I was gonna piledrive the shopkeeper since he'd set traps around the shop at night.

Question for Shev:

In T2 how do you see the role of weapons changing compared to the current hierarchy of procs/bonuses/dice (currently in that order of importance)? Are damage dice going to be more important, is damroll going to determine how much damage people do more than anything, and are procs still going to be the top priority for us to look for?

I think that procs should stay as they are and remain the best reason to choose what you wield, but I'd like to see dice (or however the new system will work) step up into a larger role compared to damroll.

Seems to be more based upon the modifications done to the weapon, the wielder, and the victim.

So far I'm pretty tickled with how you've presented the way AC is going to be working in the new system. It makes sense and could open up more room for variation in equipment sets and individuality in gear.

As for players all getting to retool their characters... I sincerly hope the new system is a lot tougher on base stats than what we've been playing with since the roller was brokeded. If you want variation in the players, you have to make them make tough choices in stats, right?

And don't worry, Shev, I know the whole picture has to be seen for it to all even out. I'm just a bit concerned that it's going to take some heavy shuffling to bring that large of a tip on the scales back into balance. I'm really looking forward to finding out about the other changes you have planned that are going to pull that all into line. You have to have some very interesting ideas for the races planned.

There's only one real question: Will rangers finally be useful?

Ok, maybe one more... 3E rules right? So... monks?


Damn I'm tempted to start playing again...

I'm pretty excited from reading about everything so far.

My only concern is basically what Ashiwi eluded to... stats and the whole "retooling" of ones' character. I'm a little worried abou what happens to those of us with old chars that were created on the original roller and so don't have all uber attributes, especially since it sounds like some of the particular stat fields are used differently.

Some of my char's stats took days to get, so I'd assume those who do have higher att's shouldn't lose them.

when it comes to you rogues there are feats that allow you to use your dexterity bonus rather than your strength bonus for attacks with a specific weapon type.

and to clear up ashiwi's concern on how strength affecting hitting with a weapon works you need to think about the weight and the weight distribution of the weapon you are using. if you have an 8 pound sword you need to have enough strength to control that 8 pounds as you swing if you are barely strong enough to lift it all you will have are wild swings but if you have the strength to stop the motion or alter it's course in mid swing then you have control and control allows you to strike with accuracy and to aim your strikes at the most vulnerable points in your enemies armor.

And what about group limits for zones? Still 15?

i hope toril 2.0 adresses this little problem.. 125int... come on wtf?


A Gloomy Lair Inside a Troll Warren
Resembling a typical troll cave, this lair is high enough to accommodate
the troll's tall form and deep enough for one to sleep comfortably. A heap
of sticks, leaves and miscellaneous animal skins form a crude nest near the
back while the bones of many victims lie scattered all over the floor.
Pieces of what used to be armor and weapons are bent and shredded, pushed
carelessly to the walls of the fetid cave. Mixed in with the bones, the
occasional glitter of a stray coin or other metallic object can be seen,
all that remains of what was once a hapless traveler's few possessions. The
smell of the room is completely repulsive and could indeed be produced by
nothing other than a troll.
Exits: - East
A fire elemental blazes in from the east.

< 732h/765H 181v/183V P: std > search
You don't find anything.

< 732h/765H 182v/183V P: std > search
You don't find anything.

< 732h/765H 183v/183V P: std > search
You don't find anything.

< 732h/765H 183v/183V P: std > search
You don't find anything.

< 732h/765H 183v/183V P: std > search
You don't find anything.

< 732h/765H 183v/183V P: std > search
You don't find anything.

< 732h/765H 183v/183V P: std > search
You don't find anything.

< 732h/765H 183v/183V P: std > search
You don't find anything.

< 732h/765H 183v/183V P: std > search
You don't find anything.

< 732h/765H 183v/183V P: std > search
You don't find anything.

< 732h/765H 183v/183V P: std > search
You don't find anything.

< 732h/765H 183v/183V P: std > search
You don't find anything.

< 732h/765H 183v/183V P: std > search
You don't find anything.

< 732h/765H 183v/183V P: std > search
You don't find anything.

< 732h/765H 183v/183V P: std > search
You don't find anything.

< 732h/765H 183v/183V P: std > search
You search exhaustively and conclude there is nothing to be found!

ha... then the next room....



A Gloomy Lair Inside a Troll Warren
Resembling a typical troll cave, this lair is high enough to accommodate
the troll's tall form and deep enough for one to sleep comfortably. A heap
of sticks, leaves and miscellaneous animal skins form a crude nest near the
back while the bones of many victims lie scattered all over the floor.
Pieces of what used to be armor and weapons are bent and shredded, pushed
carelessly to the walls of the fetid cave. Mixed in with the bones, the
occasional glitter of a stray coin or other metallic object can be seen,
all that remains of what was once a hapless traveler's few possessions. The
smell of the room is completely repulsive and could indeed be produced by
nothing other than a troll.
Exits: - South
A fire elemental blazes in from the south.

< 732h/765H 181v/183V P: std > search
You search exhaustively and conclude there is nothing to be found!

< 732h/765H 182v/183V P: std >

Boboloppe wrote:and to clear up ashiwi's concern on how strength affecting hitting with a weapon works you need to think about the weight and the weight distribution of the weapon you are using. if you have an 8 pound sword you need to have enough strength to control that 8 pounds as you swing if you are barely strong enough to lift it all you will have are wild swings but if you have the strength to stop the motion or alter it's course in mid swing then you have control and control allows you to strike with accuracy and to aim your strikes at the most vulnerable points in your enemies armor.

I understand that completely, but you need to understand... who are you talking to, again? Rogues use very light weapons, and anybody could pick up a tableknife and swing wildly. If I put a tableknife under somebody's skin, the amount of damage I do to that area is going to be determined on the amount of force I use to penetrate said skin. Now whether I give them a glancing blow to the arm or I carve the sacred symbol of Mooby the Golden Calf on their abdominal area is going to be based on two things: the skill I have with a tableknife, and the dexterity with which I wield it.

The scope of the changes leads me to believe there will be another area which will compensate for this. I read something about the weight of the weapon affecting the attack style, which is a partial answer to the issue, but not a complete resolution. I'm very willing to wait and see how it all turns out.

Jet Li is a small guy, not weak by any means, but not an Olympic lifter, to be sure... but I'd pit him with a tableknife against the entire Olympic weightlifting team wielding heavy swords any day.

Ashiwi wrote:Never played 3.0. My memories of D&D are those of rules-bogged nightmares of numbers and schematics. You spent more time working out the calculus than you did enjoying the game, it seemed.

Ashi.. gimme a call or beep me. *grin* 3.0/3.5 MAJORLY simplified the game. I used to get REALLY tired of all the dice you had to remember to do stuff. Its all about the d20 now. In 3.5 Rogues still VERY much want the stabby eq.

Oh and in 3.5, anyone can use a missile weapon.. how well you use it depends on Dex, chosen "feats" which I'm sure someone else will go into at some point if they are to be implemented, and the roll of the dice.

In the 3.5 tabletop I'm playing right now, my cleric can use a crossbow. She also has the option for a sling. And a dagger can be tossed by anyone that can use a dagger (which with it being a simple weapon is pretty much everyone). The thing with tossing a dagger.. crappy damage and short range. (1d3/1d4 and 10 feet)

As for different class splits, If I'm a mage who can wear heavy armor and wield a longsword, I'm still a mage (though I fumble spells more often thanks to Arcane Spell Failure on armor). A rogue who has a higher skill in sneaking up and killing someone doesn't make them an assassin, its just a rogue who has played to different abilities. If you'd rather be the best at picking pockets and finding/removing traps, then you play to that but you're still a rogue.

The one I'm seriously curious about is how mage/cleric classes will be handled. Do we have to pick schools/domains? But then I'm getting ahead of myself and what has been posted.

With range meaning something, I wonder if we're going to have row combat (front middle back). No more 5 efhr khanjari groups!

Dalar wrote:With range meaning something, I wonder if we're going to have row combat (front middle back)

Which was the original intention of archery.

Ashiwi I'm sure you understood the concenpt it was others I wanted to talk to and you gave me the perfect opening and to put is simply you and other rogues would want to pick up a feat that makes you use your sick dex bonus instead of your less godly str bonus when using daggers.

While I am rather dextrous with my feet, I doubt I'll be wielding daggers with them any time soon.

If they do have a feat which uses dex instead of str, I hope it accounts for damage as well. In 3E D&D it's slightly imbalanced in that the dex based warrior has to spend a feat just to hit as well as a strength based warrior... but then he STILL needs to have a good strength score to do reasonable damage since strenght is all that counts in damage calculation. Then you can add in two handed swords, which give a 1.5x bonus to the str modifier and dex based fighters are at a big disadvantage, especially against creatures with high damage resistance.

wondering if there's gonna be any changes to squids with this 2.0???

or a goodie version of psi. Heck where's the drow ones! =D

looking forward to the changes! customization of existing characters sounds great, too. for a moment i was scared i'd have to level up a 4th enchie :p

rylan wrote:I'm pretty excited from reading about everything so far.

My only concern is basically what Ashiwi eluded to... stats and the whole "retooling" of ones' character. I'm a little worried abou what happens to those of us with old chars that were created on the original roller and so don't have all uber attributes, especially since it sounds like some of the particular stat fields are used differently.

good question, here's the response I got when I asked it

Eilistraee
Staff Member - Quests


Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 786

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:55 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Old characters do fall under the classification of all, yes :)
_________________
Eilistraee

Dalar wrote:With range meaning something, I wonder if we're going to have row combat (front middle back). No more 5 efhr khanjari groups!

this would also limit which person the mob could switch to. If you are in a 15 person group, you aren't all standing in a line saying Hit me, Hit me! Tanks up front, casters in the back etc.

I'm curious about how spells are going to work, scribing, memorization, casting, etc. Components for spells? (Other than the ones that have them) or how the system works. Is the damage system from HL being implimented in any form? (I.e. acid/fire/ice/slash/bludge, etc all having different modifiers based on what you're fighting. example being a skeleton doesn't take much damage from a dagger(piercing) but would take 1.5/2x from a hammer(bludgeon))?

Latreg wrote:

Dalar wrote:With range meaning something, I wonder if we're going to have row combat (front middle back). No more 5 efhr khanjari groups!

this would also limit which person the mob could switch to. If you are in a 15 person group, you aren't all standing in a line saying Hit me, Hit me! Tanks up front, casters in the back etc.

Whee.. if this happens I see more missile wielding mobs!!!

Swing batta batta swing batta batta swing batta batta swing!!!

Wonder if flanking modifiers will go in *drool* and charge (on foot)...

Am I the only one who wants to know if Ashiwi is going to go the Assassin route or the Thief route if she's forced to choose? I'm guessing Thief for the filthy lucre...

o rly

hellllloooooooo nurse!

welcome back.

As was mentioned in a discussion I had the other day, there's something with the new "2.0" direction that should be considered.

Back in the day, Soj (1) had your character's abilities largely based upon the time spent upon practicing your art, rather than having a fixed point system for your art. As was pointed out to me, a buddy's character back then was a fire-based sorcerer because those were the spells that character had used so frequently.
Then Soj2 came along with the entire sorcerer class split into enchanter/illusionist/invoker, which kinda took away from a caster being able to specialize with certain spells by way of practice, instead shifting this decision to character creation time. There is some hope by way of practicing to enhance the already determined bias of a character, for example maxing out the spellcast teleportation or some such skill. But even maxing out all (natural) enchanter spellcraft skills, does an enchanter become even more efficient at being a defensive protection caster?

Now, with Torilmud 2.0 and fixed points coming, are characters going to just degrade further into (a/an) "Exactly how can I positiion my points to get what I want?!" beancounter, which causes a large amount of clustering of characters with the same stats? Granted, stats are stats and, mostly, should be determined at character creation, but what about the skills/time effort put into characters now?
In order to get the skills some characters have now, a LOT of playing time has been invested. Are all those weeks of playing time going to be for naught, in doing this "effective rerolling" to Torilmud 2.0 characters?

Myself, I'd like to see my playing time multiplied by my spellcraft skills be multiplied by an appropriate modifier, when my character is effectively rerolled/releveled.

Forward the Practiced Skills Banner! (Or a good enough compromise)

P.S. I totally understand the newer "skills/feats" system being introduced, as I've long experience with that system, it won't address this problem.

Mirlantharn

Well unless we all distribute our points exactlly the same way, we will all be different (as I see it)

With the roller the way it is now, you can roll perfect characters EVERY time, given enough rolls and patience. Most classes max out the same skills given skill practice and time, so as it stands only equipment and personal player behind the keys knowledge makes eachc haracter different.

As with any new things, there will be a transition period where we all have to adjust to the newness, but I'm quite sure we will all adapt accordingly.

Ambar wrote:Well unless we all distribute our points exactlly the same way, we will all be different (as I see it)

With the roller the way it is now, you can roll perfect characters EVERY time, given enough rolls and patience. Most classes max out the same skills given skill practice and time, so as it stands only equipment and personal player behind the keys knowledge makes eachc haracter different.

As with any new things, there will be a transition period where we all have to adjust to the newness, but I'm quite sure we will all adapt accordingly.

the new system has got to be better than what is currently in place, if you want to be a cleric that has warrior fighting abilities and stats, you can. Rogues you can have all balanced skills or be super good at hide/sneak or really excell with weapon fighting. Basically you can specialize if you want to.

D&D 3.5 (and to only a very slightly lesser extent 3.0) is extremely versatile. You can specialize in many different ways, and the ability to choose where your skill points go, as well as what feats you take, really allows you to branch out.

My only real curious point right now... Is multi-classing going to be implemented? It's really one of the chief strengths of 3.5 - so many people multi-class it's really a staple at my table-top game now.

EDIT: strike that, there's two points... Are prestige classes going in? :)

Mmmmmmmmm....

My snake whip and I are eagerly looking forward to the changes... A cleric of Lloth who actually has SKILL with her whip.. not just luck. Oh yummy yummy yummy.

I've been 'hiding in plain sight' on these forums for a while now with the Toril 2.0 stuff.

I just wanted to comment on all the "oh goodness, i've spent weeks of my time practicing and botting skills--- all for naught!????!?!?!?" boo-hoo. *smirk*

In the name of progress I say embrace the changes that Shevy is implimenting, embrace the VARIETY this is going to provide! *big smile*

I too have all my skills maxed but that was because I played a single character for a looooooooooooong time before retiring. Not that this is much of an argument against those that value their practicing/botting time... I'm just sayin' *wink* I can't speak for ya'll but I can easily run a quick analysis of pro/con... just think, all those maxed stats have helped you zone and XP up until now and scored some swanky gear. You STILL have those levels and gear in Toril 2.0, there will just be a WHOLE new way of doing things. This all sounds NOTHING like a band-aid for the Toril Blues.. this is an COMPLETE Re-write of the code foundations of the MUD... the entire way things are done now will be put on it's head and we will all be re-learning how to do some of the most basic tactics for playing and zoning!

Maybe Gantoris in his next incarnation will be a greatsword wielding rogue who takes Power Attack and flanks the crap outta baddies and drops 8d6 sneak attack on top of every attack in addition to the massive two-handed damage... *smirk* See how cool THAT is? I'll leave the fancy stuff to Ashiwi ;)

I'm just saying that you may be suprised with the combinations people will come up with when you have 100+ feats to pick from and 50 levels to play around with stuff. And as Shevy has pointed out before, if you find that come level 40 you just arn't happy with your character build you REBUILD your entire character... if a new set of feats comes out and you don't have the prerequisits, REBUILD. If you want to take Combat Expertise but it requires an INT of 70 and you only have the basic 50... *chuckle* yeah, you know it... REBUILD. Although I have to assume constant rebuilding will carry some sort of drawback... although this is less for me to guess about and more to leave up to the powers that be ;)

There WILL be a certain amount of 'ultimate builds' but lets evaluate for a moment what these builds will be;

Ultimate two-weapon rogue build
Ultimate sneaky rogue build
Ultimate ranged-combat rogue build
Ultimate light-armored dex-fighting fighter
Ultimate heavy armoed high-AC fighter
Mega damage output low-AC fighter
Ultimate healing cleric
Ultimate fighting cleric

The list goes on and on... there WILL be a crap-load of min/maxing going on with the new system, especially now because we will get some sort of cool "character record" sheet. Isn't that what all of us players do right now? We are just guessing most of the time... so just like a tabletop RPG character we will all know EACH variable and how they work with one another.

"Hrmmm... now that I hit level 5 I get to raise one of my stats by 5 points... raising my DEX will notch *all* my dex skills and my hide and move silently goes up, so does my AC, aaaand my ranged combat increass... OR I can raise my Strength by 5 and notch my strength because right now I have an 85 in that stat... +1 more to hit, +1 to damage... do I need more damage output or do I raise my defenses?... awww crap, I keep failing my Will Saves against those stupid hold person spells that one tough mob casts in that difficult zone people are doing now... I should just raise my Wisdom and get a Will saving throw bump and be done with it!"

I for one embrace our evil Toril 2.0 overlords! You just might see this old rogue coming out of the inn more often when these changes are in!

Toril will always be my digitial home away from home, I have faith in Shevy and the other Forgers that they would not do anything that would drive people away, but rather make the game MORE enjoyable and maybe even bring back some of us old farts. ;)

Gantoris

Gantoris wrote:I for one embrace our evil Toril 2.0 overlords! You just might see this old rogue coming out of the inn more often when these changes are in!

Toril will always be my digitial home away from home, I have faith in Shevy and the other Forgers that they would not do anything that would drive people away, but rather make the game MORE enjoyable and maybe even bring back some of us old farts. ;)

Gantoris

Don't threaten us! ;)

good post, and that is where a lot of fun will be is spending those few points for this or that. Anyone remember Car wars?

Old farts or ancient Stinkers Gantoris??

*wink*