Toril 2.0 - Exp Tables and Trophy

Discussion concerning the upcoming Toril 2.0 update as well as general 3.5 edition D&D discussion
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Toril 2.0 - Exp Tables and Trophy

Postby Yasden » Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:04 am

Are there any definitive plans to address these?

Discuss!
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Re: Toril 2.0 - Exp Tables and Trophy

Postby Latreg » Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:59 am

Yasden wrote:Are there any definitive plans to address these?

Discuss!


sounds like there is, don't recall what thread, but there was mention of making exp not so much the grind that it currently is as well as having to "bot" practice skills mindlessly. Trophy dunno.
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:05 am

Absolutely.

I'm not ready to discuss the details at the moment, but I would be happy to hear some ideas and feedback as to what you all would like to see addressed in a new exp/trophy system.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:33 am

Make trophy adjust when you die. If the last 5% of your xp was say, DS xp, then you die, it keeps the DS mobs on trophy despite being lower in xp than you were prior to entering DS.

I can hear it now on the 'old school' players who took so long and rinsed/repeated killin mobs for xp, but we really need to get with the times as far as leveling. What's annoying is to truly learn the game, xp'g isn't the way to go. There was a mud I visited a long time ago that had a nice system of leveling. In order to level, you had to fight your own image, or outwit some type of scenario, etc. It forced you to learn. If you failed, you died so to speak. You were in Limbo for 3 rl minutes and a tutorial came up as to what you hoped to overcome. It forced players to know what they were doing, learn routes, etc.

This system allowed you to stack beyond the quota to level several fold over. So you could basically be level 6 with 300% beyond. You would have to fight levels 7, 8, etc. in a row. You couldn't hope to skip level 8 for example.

So basically, xp'g sucks. It's not a necessary evil as I see it because you're not learning the game. Xp'g in order to quest your level does kinda teach tho, so anyway, that's my 2 cents. When you go to 'quest' your new level, you are teleported into a 1 vs. 1 room so nobody can help you. Upon entering, 'dispel magic' is forced on you so you are even.
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Postby Gormal » Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:17 am

Exp zones are good as they are, and if trophy is going to be made harder, I'd like to see more old exp zones upgraded to match (tower, wizzies, hp, whatever). Zones needs to give more exp though than these exp zones.
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Postby Yayaril » Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:21 am

8)

Get rid of trophy. If someone wants to be boring and 'grind' then that's their decision.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:30 am

Also, I'd like to see the % max per kill removed or at least raised. It's pretty odd to say the least that if you're level 20 and just managed to whack a lvl 50 mob, you gain 24% xp, yet your trophy is F'd for so long it's not funny. There's nothing wrong with plvl'g
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Postby Boboloppe » Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:30 am

the way I see it the current system rewards damage classes most heavily and penalizes support classes. classes like enchanters for example spend a large portion of there time no fighting the mob so they deal very small amounts of damage unless they solo, this results in them getting only the exp from a kill and the small amount of exp I've been told comes from being in the room with the person you stoned or scaled when they take damage.

I would like to see an exp modifier for kill exp added to all classes that can help balance out the problem. The modifier should only work when grouped and should addjust the amount of exp each person receaves based on there classes normal damage output in exp groups. Rogues and invokers for example deal large amounts of damage and there for gain large amounts of exp from it they could receave less exp from the kill and not notice. Where as Enchanters and Clerics often have to forgo doing damage to keep spells ready when the warrior gets hurt. they could receave double kill exp and still not race past damage classes since trophy doesn't effect the exp from dealing damage.

also I would agree that trophy should be removed it simply makes it harder to exp people will naturally vary the exp they do based on whats open at the time and if 30 people are already doing DS.

thanks for your time.
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Postby Ifin » Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:09 am

Ditto for what Boboloppe said, my #1 reason why I don't enjoy playing enchanter that much (chime in 4 people who say "oh but enchanter is the funnest char that I play).

Yes it's a great, extremely powerful class, and yes to get to maybe dragonscale level which is a game-altering spell should be hard. But after such a point, the class which does arguably the most work and arguably pays the most attention receives the less xp in the end, unless you play it in the style that you're not supposed to.

I can seriously 99.9% trigger my warrior (if not MT)/illu/ele/invoker/rogue (if not scouting) through any zone and xp, but have yet to find a way w/my enchanter.
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Postby Ambar » Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:29 am

im sure someone has a complete bot trigger set for enchanter .. oddly enough I have had the most fun xping with either of my two scalers since it forces you to pay attention :)

I'd like to seee trophy really mean something AND equal up to 100% darnit!. Heck my battlechanter has 5 mobs on it (CM) .. eachone shows less than 20%..


Exp % Name
15.6 a duergar scout
17.3 a duergar warrior
5.1 a cave troll
2.5 a mountain giant
17.0 a duergar raider


where's the rest of it!

I'd like to see tables reflect kn some level the amount of work expended per battle as well as the damage you put out. During exp where your invokers get the damage per spell and mem out, the cleric and stoner/haster/scaler type casts spells then mems out, having to chance missing death xp when the mob dies by crit when you are memming out.

Sick to buff people up then see the rogue out level you by MANY levels cause of melee damage :)

Or try to change the buff spell xp to reflect the cast rather than the *chip away* in room effect (so you can cast and still get the xp and successfully mem out as long as the tank is in battle (to prevent losers from buffing themselves over and over for the spellcast xp))

OR ... allow meming in room as long as you yourself are not engaged in battle .. novel idea?
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Postby Lilira » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:18 pm

XP be awarded to the group as a whole and credited as long as you are in the same zone or within 3 rooms of the fight, so if you're a mage memming out you still see some.

Zones grant higher XP for high-end chars (40+), perhaps a percentage based on level limit listed in credits. I want my 2 hour run in Meilich to mean more than my 2 hours grinding in DS, perhaps just a chunky XP dump upon killing the "boss", or smaller chunks for massive melee fights in places like Jot/Musp where you have bunches of mobs in one area to get through.

To be honest, my fave XP zone is Izans. Its fun, unpredictable at times (patrols walking THROUGH to the "mem-out" room), and oh the fun of blowing everything up!!

More ways of getting XP than just killing. (Soooo loved the idea of discovery xp on EQ2, but not sure how that would be handled here.)
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Postby Dalar » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:41 pm

Ask your Homeland buddies what they think about exp. Exping on Homeland was awesome because there were exp modifiers for the # of aggressives in room. That lead to harder fights = more exp. Was also really fun to see how many npcs you could put in one room and stay alive and win.
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Postby Boboloppe » Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:16 pm

you can bot a chanter but I promise you that if you do you will be about as useless as a sack of stones to the group.

chanter is a thinking class you are constantly making the choice to I scale Luma here or should I scale Sipes couse I have one left. I'd like to see kill exp extend to people meming out. Why should trophy matter simply set it so that once a mob is enough smaller than you then no exp is given even damage exp. it would be a simple lvl check modifier. honestly tho why do we need trophy? it hurts low damage classes and is almost not noticed by high damage classes. one of 2 options in my opinion will help make it better. I think that trophy was intended to make people do more than 1 zone to exp most of there midlvl and high. if that is what you as staff want then make it effect damage exp against a trophied mob. if you like myself think that we have moved beyond needing trophy then just yank it out entirely and I would love to see my Idea for a modifier to kill exp based on the classes

thanks.
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Postby Tasan » Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:02 pm

Thilindel wrote:What's annoying is to truly learn the game, xp'g isn't the way to go. There was a mud I visited a long time ago that had a nice system of leveling.

So basically, xp'g sucks. It's not a necessary evil as I see it because you're not learning the game. Xp'g in order to quest your level does kinda teach tho, so anyway, that's my 2 cents. When you go to 'quest' your new level, you are teleported into a 1 vs. 1 room so nobody can help you. Upon entering, 'dispel magic' is forced on you so you are even.


So lemme get this straight... Now instead of gaining a level just by doing experience, we would have a system where you need to prove you learned something? I thought we were trying to eliminate the grind.

Please explain to me how you aren't learning the game by "doing experience". It forces you to a) cast your spells and learn their effectiveness and b) hopefully it forces you to interact with other classes and find out what sort of things are possible. Thrusting people into zone sitatuations immediately isn't going to end with any different results.

Yayaril wrote:Get rid of trophy. If someone wants to be boring and 'grind' then that's their decision.


Trophy already does basically nothing, and yet people complain about it. I sometimes wonder if they put in a command that gave you a false reading of your damage if people would freak out and whine constantly. The idea for trophy is a good one, the implementation is awful.

Trophy shouldn't be a percentage of all your experience, but rather the experience per level. In conjunction with the following idea, I think it might make for a better system.

You should really gain minimal if any experience by killing a mob of lower level than you are. In contrast, for each level a mob is higher than you, you should gain an exponential amount.

If mobA which is level 25 and gives 100000 experience points for killing it, and you and your 3 friends of level 20 manage to kill it, you should each receive ~31000 experience. 25/20 = 1.25 x (100000/4) = 31250.

Now obviously these numbers could use tweaking, but I think a system more in-line with this would cut down on the grind, and allow those players who start to excel at the game earlier to actually see gains faster. As far as pleveling goes, set caps/level that make sense. If a level 30 solo kills a level 50, why cap the experience extremely low? If a level 1 kills a level 50, then I can totally understand :)

Now I can see people complaining that after level 48 or so, you'll have less and less mobs that actually give noticeable experience. Here I would suggest that many zones should be given a modifier to experience rates. Also I would suggest making final "boss" type mobs have double or triple the amount of experience and give some prestige. Bel should give a crapload of prestige + experience.

After level 41 you can actively participate in most zones without being too much of a detriment to the group. I would hope the same would go for the new system and that on the whole it would be more player friendly.

Ambar wrote:I'd like to seee trophy really mean something AND equal up to 100% darnit!. Heck my battlechanter has 5 mobs on it (CM) .. eachone shows less than 20%..


Tropy doesn't list mobs that you have gotten less than 2% total experience from. I'm sure you have plenty of those to add up to 100%.

Boboloppe wrote:chanter is a thinking class you are constantly making the choice to I scale Luma here or should I scale Sipes couse I have one left.


That's easy, cast it on yourself and watch them die.

In all seriousness, I can see a problem with the "giving xp to people outside the room" solution. Imagine a level 40 troll soloing along doing skills on mobs she doesn't really care about getting experience from. She groups 7 or 8 level 10-15 people who are all doing experience themselves far away from the troll. I don't really see how that would be right(at least not w/ the exp system I proposed).

I'm all for people outside the room getting experience if you can actually tie it to them having done something for the group in question.

Sorry for the rambling.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:26 pm

Tasan wrote:
Thilindel wrote:What's annoying is to truly learn the game, xp'g isn't the way to go. . ..


So lemme get this straight...


I forgot to mention it keeps track of your address so it only forced that on you for your first created char or if the char were higher level than you've had with said address. I had a lvl 25 monk, quit playing him and as an assassin, it didn't make me go through that until level 26+ as that char.
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:26 pm

You know, Wild Arms 4 has an interesting system which might work well for out-of-room exp.

Basically various combat actions are assigned a bonus, and at the end of the fight the bonus for a character is totaled up and each character gets the normal exp multiplied by that bonus. So with such a system if a changer used was in the room and cast 6 spells, then mems out when the mob dies they could get the exp for their bonus points based on those spells. It breaks for chanters though, if they cast all their buffs before a fight and then don't do much during... bleh.

That said, I don't think it would work well here... but some variation on the idea might. In the end I think tracking the actions taken and using that to determine exp reward is the way to go.

I've always thought chanters should get "damage" exp for the damage their spells prevent, though again that's open to abuse I guess.

Oh well, just a thought...
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Postby Latreg » Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:07 pm

wow some really good ideas, I especially liked Lilira's and Dalar's posts. Here's the thing, it need to be geared/configured/set up whatever for the true newbie. Some people already know the mud, why wasted their time grinding out exp? but it is a good way to teach newbie how to play. A more agressive trophy system will force people to find new places to exp, but then the amount of exp you get should also increase. If there is a way to get rid of the "grouping penalty" and address the non-damage classes amount of exp, this I think would be the first place to start. What will attracked and keep new people is activity with others. If solo exp becomes less than or equal to what you can get with a group, people will group. Somewhere there is a happy balance, what that is who the heck knows :)
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Postby Ifin » Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:02 am

For all the classes xp it's already been discussed different ways of making it more relevant and fun.

For chanter I want to add I believe getting to level 50 should remain about the same relative "difficulty" as it is now (w/whatever changes in store), maybe a lil easier (w/comments on how at end). Personally I think that once you reach 50, then the tables should be decreased by 1/3rd - 1/2, easiest way to solve the problem that attaining scales/mastery of chanting should be hard, but at least let us have a chance to get a buffer once we worked to that position.

As for making it slightly better 1-50, Aerisia also mentioned something interesting about chip damage xp from buffs while in room - I didn't even notice that, and suggested we receive more xp on cast. The opposite would actually work quite well, that we receive more chip damage xp from stone/scales cast, and even if we're not in the room. Chipping would only occur when whoever we cast it on is fighting a mob high enough to hit them for decent damage, meaning that the chanter is actually doing something productive that would warrant xp (cept chip on fire/coldshield).
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Postby Lahgen » Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:54 am

Well, whatever system punishes the mediocre and exalts the elite, that is the best way, obviously.
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Postby Tasan » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:28 am

Do you ever post anything that isn't completely sardonic? Seriously... you give trolls like Teflor a bad name.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:57 am

Do you ever post anything that isn't completely short-sighted? Seriously... if I wanted a bad name, I'd just mimic your style.
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Postby Lahgen » Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:57 am

Tasan wrote:Do you ever post anything that isn't completely sardonic? Seriously... you give trolls like Teflor a bad name.


Who, me?

That was just a pre-emptive strike against the usual attitudes that creep up.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:13 am

Lahgen wrote:Well, whatever system punishes the mediocre and exalts the elite, that is the best way, obviously.


Lahgen, where is anyone trying to make it hard for newer people? That horse is long dead and made into quite sticky glue. Not EVERY thread is about *mediocre* players and playstyle, not every thread needs to have some *poor little me* comment thrown in.

Hehe.. If anything we all want it made similar across the board .. different TYPE of xp for same amount of work. Rogues get oober melee damage that gets increased by the mages haste while if the mage is out of room on death, or stay out of room to mem, they miss all xp.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:37 pm

Ambar wrote:
Lahgen wrote:Well, whatever system punishes the mediocre and exalts the elite, that is the best way, obviously.


Lahgen, where is anyone trying to make it hard for newer people? That horse is long dead and made into quite sticky glue. Not EVERY thread is about *mediocre* players and playstyle, not every thread needs to have some *poor little me* comment thrown in.

Hehe.. If anything we all want it made similar across the board .. different TYPE of xp for same amount of work. Rogues get oober melee damage that gets increased by the mages haste while if the mage is out of room on death, or stay out of room to mem, they miss all xp.


Yeah, Lahgen, that's a bit much sarcasm for this thread so far.
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Postby Latreg » Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:03 pm

Lahgen,Teflor I like your posts, I think you guys are funny and people take what you say wwwaaayy to seriously.

Anyway, been thinking about this whole thing. The general idea is to expand the level system to 100 levels, but keep the hps skills etc the equivelant of what we have currently. so basically level 40 would equal the current level 20. The reason is, you would gain levels faster which promotes accomplishment. It may all equal out in the wash but people like to see that "You raise a Level" especially new people which is the geared towards. Now there should be "mile stone" levels (taking this from a previous post) where you stop gaining exp until you quest/graduate to the next group level. These would also be use to get people ready for quest spells. Instead of now you hit level 45 and you begin it. Rather than that, perhaps use certain levels to work on bits and parts of it. So that when you hit that magic level you just need to compelete the ending. Kind of like a story, it builds up until the end. Yeah Yeah I know you can start them early, but for a new person who doesn't want to be told the whole thing they aren't going to do it, they are going to exp and level. This would also be a good system for people to learn how to do quests. Again this is just a general idea and I hope it makes sense and you can see what I mean and how it would work. In the actual D&D you have "missions" and gain exp from that, I guess that's how I kind of picture the "graduating" into the next set of levels.
Quest for exp would be very cool too. Once you do it you get a perm trophy of 100% so can't can benefit from doing it again. Or whatever method to stop people from doing it all the time. Again kind of like the D&D mission kinda thing. Well I'll ramble on more later.
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Postby Lilira » Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:24 pm

Gentlemen.. for once lets actually keep this thread ON TOPIC instead of dissolving into petty namecalling.

Dunno about the whole leveling to 100 thing. I get a slight rush anytime I hit 25th level cus I know I'm "Halfway there!" I've only ever gotten one character to 50th (I burn out about the time I hit 46th and in most cases can push it to 48th) and a climb to level 100 would prolly keep me from ever zoning again. Sure the levels would come faster, but honestly... the real accomplishment for me is finishing that last quest spell for my class!

Speaking of quest spells.. I usually try to have all my components started way before I get my level. The problem for new people, is some of the components are from zones they generally won't be invited to go do until they hit at least 46th level.
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Postby Dlur » Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:34 pm

I'd like to see a system whereby:

1) Make 60 mortal levels. Levels 1-10 are cakewalk, far far easier than they are now no matter your race or class- you can blow through these regardless of whethe you have good eq or not. Levels 11-25 are a decent amount easier than they are now. Levels 26-41 are just a bit easier than they are now. Levels 41-50 are the same as they are now. Level 46+ would be a solid zoneable character with experience difficulty similar to current. Levels 51-60 would be INSANELY difficult to attain, such that only the absolutely most dedicated players could ever reach level 60, with some levels requiring certain quests or specific epic fights in order to level.

2) Make trophy actually work. If you get more than 5% of your exp from 1 mob you shouldn't ever get any more exp from that mob. Any exp you get from a mob up to 5% would be without penalty. Trophy wouldn't start until level 30.

3) Make zone experience be worth a LOT more than it is now. Make dragons, demons, devils, and other epic mobs be worth about 100x what they are now for experience. If you're in the room, well actually zone, when Tia dies you should get close to 50% of a level's worth of EXP.

4) I'd say downgrade DS and CM exp, but if trophy was actually severe there'd be no need to because you couldn't actually level there infinately.

5) Cut exp loss from failed res to 10% and exp loss from a sucessful res to 1% for players that are post level 46+.

6) Implement exploration experience so that if you explore a zone you get a set amount of exp that is assigned for the zone as a percentage of the rooms that you have visited in that zone.

7) Up the amount of exp that you get from using skills and casting spells and lower the amount of exp you get from damage slightly (especially for rogues).

8) Remove the group penalty for exp, or at least lower it significantly.

9) Give more experience for fighting multiple mobs (similar to homeland implementation).

10) Allow experience for quests, but make it so that player cookies allow you to get exp for that quest only once and also so that you can't do the quest with one character and then hand the items off to a newbie to do the quest with.


The overall goals of this system would be such that leveling up to a zoneable level (46+) would be relatively easy, which is where most of the fun of the game is at for the vast majority of players. Levels 51-60 would be for the truly hardcore players who revel in their level as a status symbol, but would really only give very minor amounts of extra power in the way of skills and spells. Trophy would ensure that people got most of their experience post level 30 from zones, or at least such that they move around a bit and explore different areas, which would also be an alternative source of experience along with questing.
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Postby Lilira » Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:08 pm

Again, the problem with this idea...

Once so many people get above 50, only those who are 50 or higher will be invited on the assumption that the higher level you are as a caster, the more spells per circle you have etc...

As it is now I have people sneer at me because Eya is only 47/48th. "You're only 47th level (Yeah the level yo-yos alot cus I don't xp her) what could you possibly know about playing a voker."

Playing time: 34 days / 15 hours/ 30 minutes

I have more playing time on my one voker than many have on their primes. I choose not to XP cus I loose it anyway, and I HATE xping her. Raising the level cap and making it harder to XP is just going to add to the grind, not take it away.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:33 pm

Lilira wrote:Again, the problem with this idea...

Once so many people get above 50, only those who are 50 or higher will be invited on the assumption that the higher level you are as a caster, the more spells per circle you have etc...

As it is now I have people sneer at me because Eya is only 47/48th. "You're only 47th level (Yeah the level yo-yos alot cus I don't xp her) what could you possibly know about playing a voker."

Playing time: 34 days / 15 hours/ 30 minutes

I have more playing time on my one voker than many have on their primes. I choose not to XP cus I loose it anyway, and I HATE xping her. Raising the level cap and making it harder to XP is just going to add to the grind, not take it away.


No, I believe you're missing the point. Levels 50+ wouldn't be normal exp which is what he was saying. You'd be zoning like regular, except with the things he wants you'd get MORE exp from the big multimob fights, and the big fights period. You wouldn't be doing pointless grind exp on Smoke or DS or CM or whathave you. You'd be doing other crap.

And if people sneer at you for being level 47/48 then you're not going with the right people, cause that's a copout. :P
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Postby Lilira » Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:35 pm

Laugh.. never said it stopped me from going. *wink*
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Postby Lahgen » Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:47 pm

I've decided to remove what I originally said here. Not because they're right about their views on things, but because I've spent far too long being vindictive and spiteful, to say nothing of bitter.
Last edited by Lahgen on Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Latreg » Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:59 pm

Lilira wrote:Again, the problem with this idea...

Once so many people get above 50, only those who are 50 or higher will be invited on the assumption that the higher level you are as a caster, the more spells per circle you have etc...

As it is now I have people sneer at me because Eya is only 47/48th. "You're only 47th level (Yeah the level yo-yos alot cus I don't xp her) what could you possibly know about playing a voker."

Playing time: 34 days / 15 hours/ 30 minutes

I have more playing time on my one voker than many have on their primes. I choose not to XP cus I loose it anyway, and I HATE xping her. Raising the level cap and making it harder to XP is just going to add to the grind, not take it away.


That will always be an issue, not much you can do about it, unless you do a pwipe. The higher you go in levels the more powerful you become, that's the basic idea of exp and levels, it's the whole principle of the game.

Anyway keep in mind that my posts are not to help or make the current players happy but rather to attract and keep new players. I have long lost that warm and fuzzy feeling of getting a level as I'm sure many others have, hence those that plevel.
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Postby Dlur » Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:45 pm

Lilira wrote:Again, the problem with this idea...

Once so many people get above 50, only those who are 50 or higher will be invited on the assumption that the higher level you are as a caster, the more spells per circle you have etc...

As it is now I have people sneer at me because Eya is only 47/48th. "You're only 47th level (Yeah the level yo-yos alot cus I don't xp her) what could you possibly know about playing a voker."

Playing time: 34 days / 15 hours/ 30 minutes

I have more playing time on my one voker than many have on their primes. I choose not to XP cus I loose it anyway, and I HATE xping her. Raising the level cap and making it harder to XP is just going to add to the grind, not take it away.


I may not have fully explained my ideas relating to my proposal of levels 50+. For one I wouldn't give anyone level 50+ that much more for spell circles, new skills, etc. I think they could perhaps have a few more Feat points to spend and it'd also be nifty if for every level after 50 you got a cool title specific to your class. I think of levels 50+ as more of a prestige thing than a character power scenario. Arilin seems to smell what I'm cooking in that you wouldn't necesarily need to even do experience to get level 51, as most of your levels post 50 would come from doing epic quests or epic fights, but even if you did need to do exp for the most part it would come from doing zones, not from DS or Pirate Ship style areas.

To reiterate, I'd like to see any level 46+ character be zonable, with a level 50 being at about the peak of zonability. A 51-60 character would be mainly about prestige in saying "I killed Tiamat and my friends/group members respect/love me so much that they all decided/diced I should get the level 55 quest token this trip" or something of a similar nature.

This should have the overall effect of a) newbies level up much faster to a zonable level, thus enabling them to get into the heart and soul of the game faster, while still learning more than they might now by doing exp b) zones give more exp, especially hard zones so there is less grind exp to be done by all c) People who want to spend the time, effort, and have the skill and friends to do so are able to "show off" by getting "hero" levels, thus giving them something to do while they're waiting to win the bid to get that 1 magma item they need to finally "complete" their equipment kit d) adds a few other ways to gain experience and levels by exploring and questing.

So in the end Lilira you should end up getting Eya to level 50 under this plan by continuing to do the zones you've always done and dying just a tad less, instead of feeling like you need to go hit smoke or DS after a zone to gain any net exp.
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Postby Gurns » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:02 pm

My suggestion for a trophy system would be as follows:

I see little benefit to the mud from mindless xping, and none that couldn't be achieved in other, better ways, so I'm all for a very harsh trophy.

I'd base trophy on the number of times the PC has killed the mob, not on the percent it has contributed to your xp. So with a harsh trophy, I'd say that by the 4th time you kill the mob, you're getting half the xp. By the 10th time, you're getting almost nothing. I think it has to be that harsh to be effective.

But with that kind of severity, you'd need to make some large, positive adjustments.

With a harsh trophy, I'm in favor of less xp needed for leveling. My main objection to faster leveling, given the way things are, is precisely because folks can mindlessly xp. As a result, levels mean almost nothing in terms of player skill or mud knowledge. If xp and levels actually mean something, than faster leveling is fine. So put in the harsh trophy and reduce xp needed per level by, I dunno, 5% for damage classes, 15% for healing classes, and 20% for other classes. (Unless something is being done to even out how xp is awarded, obviously.)

Even lower xp per level is probably not enough given the harsh trophy I'd prefer, so give bonuses. The first mob of that type you kill is triple the xp, the second mob is double, the third mob is the same as it is now. (Then, after that, I'm suggesting the fourth is half xp, the fifth is a third xp, the sixth is a quarter xp, etc.)

I'd also suggest a "new zone" bonus. Keep track of all the zones the PC has been in, and if this is the first time they've been to the zone, all xp is doubled. If it's the second time, it's a third more. After that, no zone modification, positive or negative.

Allow folks to clear their mob trophy by keeping track of a large but limited number of mob types. Keep track of, say, the last 1000 mob types killed, in chronological order. When the PC kills the 1001st mob type, the mob type first on the list falls off. So to clear trophy completely, a PC could go kill 1000 different types of level 1 mobs.

No clearing of the "times in the zone" count.

Some mobs don't get affected by trophy, or put on your mob count, ever. You'd always get full, but never bonus, xp for them. Dragons and invasion mobs would qualify for this, though maybe nothing else.

No adjustments of trophy count if you die. You killed those mobs, just because you died later on doesn't change that.

Keep the max cap on experience. It is a peculiarity that you can be part of a group that kills a mob so many levels higher than you, when your contribution to that fight is zero. Don't reward zero contributions any more than they already are. Apply the cap after bonuses, so even if it's your first time in a zone, the first time you've "helped" kill that mob, you still can't get more than 24%.

No reduction in the death xp penalty, unless some other penalty for death is added. Death doesn't mean enough as it is. Increasing the death xp penalty won't help it mean more, but decreasing the death xp penalty will trivialize it even further.

That's the system, and I'd argue it would work well for new players and oldtimers, and would be good for the mud.

It does not work as well as the current system, though, for folks who want to quickly level up their bazillionth alt. While I don't care for that, personally, I think it would be good, given the current state of the mud, for there to be an alternative system of leveling that allows that. I suggest a simple cash transaction: 100 p times the level gets you the next level (so 200 p gets you level 2 from level 1, 5K gets you 50 from 49). Put this transaction onto some shopkeeper in all the hometowns. So if someone wants to spend 127.4K to go from level 1 to level 50, let them. I don't expect most PCs, even the alts of oldtimers, to use it much – maybe once or twice to quickly get to the next spell circle, maybe once or twice to get past the level that you just keep dying on. Maybe when doing Tiamat, where you might really need to be back at 46.

But the folks who use it a lot will already know the mud (or have friends that know the mud), or they wouldn't have that kind of cash. Forcing them to get out and about... there's no point to it. If they were out and about, they might group with new players, and help them level. But if they're inclined to do that, they'll do it anyway, and if they're not inclined to do it, they won't, no matter what the trophy system is like.

The advantage to the mud of this cash system is that it will help fix the economy. Last I heard, money had almost no use or value. With this, cash is worth something of value.

The cash system only works as an addition to a harsh trophy system. If folks can mindlessly xp and collect cash at the same time to buy levels, that's much worse than just mindless xp. And if the cash system goes in, I imagine some zones might have to be changed. You don't want to replace the "mindless xp" with "mindless cash". And you'd have to watch out for and prevent folks from twinking valuable items, but I'd assume you'd want to do that anyway.
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Postby kiryan » Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:24 pm

I think we should slow leveling down

http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 283#168283

however, contributing to this thread...

Trophy was designed (as far as i know) to make people exp in more than 1 place so be careful not to bastardize it. You should not get from 1-50 in the same place or in 2 or 3 areas, but I don't think that we should use making trophy harsher (and theoretically making exp harder) as a way to justify ANY INCREASE in leveling speed.

Heres why trophy doesnt work in a nutshell.

The two biggest problems to trophy are manipulation of mob numbers and the way trophy % is calculated.

The first problem, manipulation of mob numbers... you can have the same mob and give it several different unique numbers making trophy diluted on that particular mob. Smoke is a good example of this, there is literally only 1 mob on smoke, a mephit (airs used to have 3 attacks and smokes only 2 but that was done away with years ago). However, there are 10 different mobs as far as trophy is concerned because of the "smoke" and "air" mephits then 5 different ansi for each minor type. This may or may not be the first ever incident of intentional trophy manipulation, but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to game trophy on its technical details.

The second problem is that your experience cap grows so fast the calculating trophy as a % of exp gained from mob / exp or exp to next level keeps your trophy low enough that you can literally kill the same mob on smoke (we'll really 10 mobs) from 20-50 and never get over 12% trophy. If you do go over 12%, a couple of levels will bring your trophy % down.

If you were going to "fix" trophy. I'd certainly advocate keeping track of the raw # of times you've killed a particular mob and adjust experience based on that. Kill a mob 20 times for full exp, 20 more times for 75%, and any subsequent at 50%. If you are truly unwilling to move from an exp zone do we really need to force you? I think doubling your exp rate is enough incentive to exp somewhere else and if you have a bunch of friends who really want to exp in a zone your trophied on... shouldnt you be able to join them and get something.. even a decent amount of exp?
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Postby kiryan » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:24 pm

why trophy is not the solution you are looking for.

http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18608
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Postby Lilira » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:40 pm

Dlur wrote:So in the end Lilira you should end up getting Eya to level 50 under this plan by continuing to do the zones you've always done and [bold]dying just a tad less,[/bold] instead of feeling like you need to go hit smoke or DS after a zone to gain any net exp.


*sniffle* But... but... but... Where's the fun in that??? Ask anyone.. when I'm dying as Eya, I'm complete (and as friends on skype can attest, I'm laughing my butt off)!! The imagined look on Turgy's face when I zigged into the throne room in SC instead of zagging towards the Queen's chamber was priceless, and the group got a laugh too! I feel unloved if I don't die at least once!! *rofl* Thanks for the further explanation hon.

Gurns wrote:It does not work as well as the current system, though, for folks who want to quickly level up their bazillionth alt. While I don't care for that, personally, I think it would be good, given the current state of the mud, for there to be an alternative system of leveling that allows that. I suggest a simple cash transaction: 100 p times the level gets you the next level (so 200 p gets you level 2 from level 1, 5K gets you 50 from 49). Put this transaction onto some shopkeeper in all the hometowns. So if someone wants to spend 127.4K to go from level 1 to level 50, let them. I don't expect most PCs, even the alts of oldtimers, to use it much – maybe once or twice to quickly get to the next spell circle, maybe once or twice to get past the level that you just keep dying on. Maybe when doing Tiamat, where you might really need to be back at 46.


I like this idea. An option like that would be a dream come true for those sticky levels no matter the cost, and I would be one of the ones that only uses it on occasion. I do believe that after the first couple of people level from 1st to 50th through cash they'll learn the skills problem...

God I feel old, but I remember when getting a plat off a mob was like finding a lost treasure... it used to be sooo rare.

I still think placing an effective level difference cap would slow down pleveling as well. Make it 10 each way. 10 up or 10 down and then you would not have the level 20 chasing the level 50 around.

Oh and BTW... Hi Gurns. :-)
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Postby Gruy » Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:25 am

dont need more levels.. implement skills/and spells beyond 50 kind of like everquest did with aa points.. ooo there is a place to sink your prestige points... could just implement skills that matter more or will work better in zoneing situations for insntance first skill all casters can quest for at 50 is the ability to not fail 10th circle.. and mabye another quest beyond that for extra spells slots for circle 10.

mabye hitter types ranger/rog/dire can quest extra ranged attacks or whatever since i hear ranged is coming back. or perhaps can create their own magic throwing/shooting ammuntions that dont suck total ass.

mabye give tanks (all tanks) the chance to learn how to improve their regeneration rate or give them some sort of mass recue that would work a little more like guard did before it was gayed...

and so on and so forth.. easy to implement the same effect as gaining levels without doing it.. put that prestige to use let us use that to learn new beyond 50 skills/spells.
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Postby Gruy » Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:28 am

oh i forgot to ask.. will rogues be able to throw their own daggers? cause id say if a rog threw like 5 khanjari's btb that would get them a 2000hp vit and destroy the mob instantly leaving nothing behind except dirty khanjari's
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Postby Arcelian » Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:32 am

I wish we knew more about what Shev thought up, or knew how complete it is, then discuss and build on that. All of these random ideas are great, but I doubt Shev is going to throw away whats already coded for something written here :P
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Postby Sarell » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:39 am

I have no idea why someone started 3 extra posts on the same topic, but I'll post in this one cos Shev did, and call this post, 'why you do want trophy'.

I've been saying for QUITE a while, downgrade tables upgrade trophy. I've never seen a solid argument against doing both of these together. It seems simple and would achieve pretty much everything in Dlur's post, the stuff I agree with. Simplicity is good, we want to get this done now, not in another 10 years.

Steps to take.

1. Remove all bonus exp, you have exp tables at different levels, all difficulty adjustments should be made here for each class. It ridiculous logistically to make them anywhere else such as damage, spell, touching exp. It just makes more code, more crashes, more bugs and twinks to iron out. If rangers level to easy, up their tables.

2. Make trophy work. It currently doesn't. According to Miax posts a long time ago, we do have the code to apply trophy to zones aswell as individual mobs. Use it in conjunction with the single mob code. Atm I am smiting one mob 4 rooms from an inn for exp, I don't know the way arround the town, it's great exp and will be until 50. If trophy was in, it would force people into zones, then you decide if you want exp to be harder or not.

3. Okay, so you have trophy, exp is now harder. You can lower tables to make it easier. This means people will get exp from zones.

4. Remove group caps. So what if a group of 15 spend a day flattening bottom leve CM. Then their trophy is maxed there they can go do a zone together and get exp there aswell.

Rational....

Trophy will make people explore the mud and find new places to exp. I often go exp in old haunts or wierd places that have a bit of risk. They arn't as good exp, but they should be. It's an experience. It teaches you to play the game and it is fun.

At the moment, say you are going to do swamps with a group of 12, you can take a level 30 and they will get great exp. This should happen more and might if level 30 characters wern't afraid of dying and never getting to 50 from going to zones. If you have spent more than 1 RL day in DS you are probably bored of it and have learned everything there is to learn about smiting 1 single elf / giant. Trophy gets people out and about to touch the world.

Quest exp. If you do a quest for exp, you would get exp from smiting the mobs you had to, to do the quest. If you don't have to smite anything to do the quest, you don't deserve the exp most likely. Don't even think to yourself 'but what about figuring out the quest', your friend told you, and they knew because their friend who wrote the quest told them.

RP exp.... ..........ROFL, jk.
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Postby Lilira » Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:32 pm

Sarell wrote:RP exp.... ..........ROFL, jk.


DROOOOOOOOOOOOOOL *wink* *touch*
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Postby kiryan » Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:53 pm

Sarli, I made 2 or 3 other threads because this thread is about EXP TABLES and TROPHY and how to make exp tables and trophy fix the game. I don't believe any tweaking of trophy or exp tables will bring back the low level game or make this game any better.

Changing nothing but trophy and exp tables just means we will see more DS like exp zones, which everyone agrees are boring and dont teach you anything about the game.

More exp from eq zones is basically taking the "risk" from death and eliminating it since you'll gain exp from zoning instead of losing it. If we get more exp from zones, can we go back and recalc the eq calcr so death gives less points?

the threads I started are supposed to be about

1. a discussion in general about making characters intrinsically more valuable by makign them harder to acquire (more effort/time to get to 50) and the need for a low level game.

2. specific ways to eliminate pleveling (supposed to be a discussion of the ideas on how to eliminate pleveling and any other methods of pleveling I missed, NOT a discussion on whether or not we should eliminate pleveling).

3. why trophy is not the solution to "exp tables and trophy" because it does nothing to eliminate the "grind" it just makes you grind in more than one place.
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Postby Sarell » Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:23 am

If you moderate trophy in accordance with tables enough, it's no longer a grind because you get exp from zoning. What's wrong with getting exp from zoning? Why should you have to get exp in a different way than from what the 'game' or fun part is for most people - essentially in a less fun way.
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Postby Boboloppe » Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:04 am

here are a couple things I can see wrong with using trophy to force people to zone to get good exp. what do you do when you can't mud when people zone during the week and you want to get an alt to zoneing lvl? you can't get best use out of your weekday time couse non zone exp isn't so good becouse your trophy now hurts alot on exp. so you have to grind away longer couse no one will bring a mid 20s warrior to a zone or even a high 30s

and lastly why do we need to force people to zone to get exp? why not just not make trophy horrible and up exp gained in zones if thats what you want. then people will get better exp in zones so they will go there first but non zone will still work for people who play some on non peak times.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:18 am

If I read correctly, Sarell is offering that BOTH trophy and zoning will net you experience. Trophy by forcing you to leave CM, zoning xp by .. well zoning where now you dont get *so much* from zoning.

He isnt saying force everyone to zone. He offers that some people like to do standard *xp*, some like to zone for xp. I see hisa post fitting right in here in the proper discussion. Also keep in mind, you can still do the oldschool zones ' grids with three or 4 people.
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Postby Malacar » Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:02 pm

Yayaril wrote:8)

Get rid of trophy. If someone wants to be boring and 'grind' then that's their decision.


I agree with Yaya.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:47 pm

A harsh trophy will not cause anybody to 'explore the mud.'

The only thing a harsh trophy will do is encourage new players to explore other muds.
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Postby kiryan » Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:30 am

Sarell

I want to see us get more exp from zones, but not from EQ zones. If you do a hard zone where you die alot, but get enough exp from the zone to make up for the deaths... where is the risk vs reward? Its simply a matter of how long the zone is at that point. Risk vs reward is your time re-exping a character who died in zone.

I do agree that I'd like to see more of your 1-50 exp gotten in zoning rather than grinding, but I'm thinking more of zones setup to reward with exp instead of eq eithe directly in a gift of exp at the end or indirectly in quest pieces that convert to significant exp.

btw, I do see how increasing trophy significantly and reducing tables would result in people getting more exp from zones, and I think it would be a great short term solution... but the problem with it being a long term solution is that trophy and tables only change the way we exp indirectly at best... Once theres 100 DS like zones (if there aren't already), exp again will gravitate back towards the DS/smoke type grinds with a lot more moving around.

I probably haven't said enough positive things about the harsher trophy easier tables idea becaues I'm wanting something that will directly change the way we exp. I'd be much more in favor of making multiple agressive mob fights give exponentially more exp because its workign directly on how we exp...
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Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: brisbane, australia

Postby Sarell » Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:38 am

I agree with the idea of putting in multiple aggros or number of mobs you are fighting code in conjunction with upgrade trophy downgrade tables, so long as you do the tables / trophy first. I don't think there is anything stopping someone from making a zone that only rewards exp presently is there?

If there was the proliferation of 100 exp zones like DS all over the mud and people travelled between them to do exp, I think that would be great compared to walk into CM at level one walk out level 50, mostly on a single mob. However if trophy/tables idea was implemented who on earth would write a boring exp zone? Who would go there when you can get exp from zoning or doing something fun? Certainly not me. Even if the ratio was like, you get 10exp in said boring zone for every 5exp in a fun zone, people I think would choose the fun zone. At the moment you get exp from boring, and nothing from fun. You call it risk versus reward, I think of it more as 'omfg, they asked me to bring amak to a zone, now i'll have to sit in CM for another 5 hours pressing 2 buttons, what a boring waste of time this game can be'.
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