Sample 3.5 Char sheet and analysis

Discussion concerning the upcoming Toril 2.0 update as well as general 3.5 edition D&D discussion
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Sample 3.5 Char sheet and analysis

Postby moritheil » Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:27 pm

I'll post a sample 3.5 char here and you guys can ask questions. I've built very few 3.5 chars that were not multiclassed to the hilt; here's a fairly straightforward build that I used for an NPC. (Crystalkeep has a list of races/classes/PrCs.)

One of the concepts of attaining power in 3.5 is qualifying for prestige classes. This NPC was built with the Hammer of Moradin prestige class in mind, which requires some divine casting and emphasizes fighting with a hammer. Favored Soul was used instead of Cleric, but only to limit options and simplify things a bit. (Favored Souls are spontaneous casting Clerics that do not have to mem spells beforehand, but simply expend slots. Sorcerers work this way in 3.5.) Favored souls are also thought to be slightly better at fighting, though at only 4 levels, there's no real difference between that class and the standard Cleric.

Dwarves in 3.5 get a staggering array of specific bonuses, so note that throughout the char sheet, I've taken pains to list bonuses so I don't forget them. For example, additional save poison bonuses are listed again next to fort saves, just in case I look at the sheet to make a fort save vs. poison and forget about the dwarven racial resistance to poison.

Feats are explicitly ennumerated so it's clear what benefits they do and do not provide. Bonuses are in all cases broken down so it's easy to see where they come from and add/subtract according to circumstances.

Code: Select all

CHARACTER NAME : Dwarven Soldier, Hammer of Moradin
RACE (ECL) : Dwarf (+0)
CLASS (LEVEL) : Favored Soul 4/Ftr 4/HoM 2
... NET LEVEL : 10
ALIGNMENT : LG
SIZE : Medium
SPEED : 20 ft
TYPE : Humanoid (Dwarf)

Representative of an elite dwarven unit.

EXPERIENCE : xp
CASH : 49,000 gp

ABILITY SCORES: 40 point buy: 10+6+10+6+6+2
Str 20 (+5) (16/base 4/enh)
Dex 14 (+2) (14/base)
Con 24 (+7) (16/base 2/rac 2/bon 4/enh)
Int 10 (+0) (10/base)
Wis 14 (+2) (14/base)
Cha 12 (+1) (14/base -2/rac)

SAVES
FORT +20 (4/fs 4/ftr 3/hom 2/rac 7/con) Does not autofail.  +2 vs poison.
REF +9 (4/fs 1/ftr 2/rac 2/dex)
WILL +17 (4/fs 1/ftr 3/hom 2/rac 7/con) Immune to fear.  +2 after combat starts.

HIT POINTS : 4d8 +6d10 +70 = 120
ARMOR CLASS
Standard : 20 (10/base 2/dex 6/armor 2/dodge)
Touch : 14 (10/base 2/dex 2/dodge)
Flat-Foot : 16 (10/base 6/armor)

Note: AC and saves improve by 2 when Prot. Evil is up.

INITIATIVE : +2 (2/dex)
BASE ATTACK : +9/4
RANGED : +17 (5/str 1/enh 1/wf 1/morale)
MELEE : +17 (5/str 1/enh 1/wf 1/morale)

WEAPONS
Masterwork Cold Iron Warhammer  [1d8 x2]  +9 dam: +7/1.5strmod +2/w.spec

LANGUAGES
Common, Dwarven

RACIAL TRAITS
    *      +2 Constitution, –2 Charisma.
    *      Medium: As Medium creatures, dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
    *      Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).
    *      Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all.
    *      Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up.
    *      Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
    *      Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
    *      +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
    *      +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.
    *      +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids.
    *      +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too.
    *      +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.
    *      +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.
    *      Automatic Languages: Common and Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon.
    *      Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass dwarf ’s fighter class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing

CLASS FEATURES
Favored Soul: Weapon Focus (warhammer)
Hammer of Moradin: Warhammer becomes returning, range increment 20'.  Goblinbane 1/day.  Immune to fear.


FEATS
Cha 1 . Brutal Throw (Str instead of Dex for throws)
Cha 3 . Dodge (+1 AC)
FS  3 . Weapon Focus (warhammer)
Ftr 1 . Combat Focus (gain focus by hitting enemy; +2 to will saves)
Cha 6 . Endurance
Ftr 2 . Combat Defense (+1 dodge AC in focus; change Dodge target as immediate action)
Ftr 4 . Weapon Specialization (warhammer)
Cha 9 . Steadfast Determination (use Con for Will; do not autofail Fort on 1.)
Cha12 .
Cha15 .
Cha18 .
---------------[ Epic Threshold! ]---------------
Cha21 .
Cha24 .




SKILLS 2*13 = 26
Craft (Weapons)   +12 (10 ranks 0/int 2/rac)
Concentration     +12 (5 ranks 7/con)
Heal               +3 (1 ranks 2/wis)
Know (Arcana)      +8 (8 ranks 0/int)
Know (Religion)    +2 (2 ranks 0/int)
Listen             +2 (0 ranks 2/wis)
Ride               +2 (0 ranks 2/dex)
Search             +0 (0 ranks 0/int)
Sense Motive       +2 (0 ranks 2/wis)
Spot               +2 (0 ranks 2/wis)

Spent 26 ranks


EQUIPMENT (total 47 k)
Adventurer's Outfit
Girdle of Giant Strength           [16000 gp; +4 str]
Amulet of Health                   [16000 gp; +4 con]
+1 Warded Breastplate              [9350 gp; AC6 4maxdex -3 ACP, death ward 1/day 7min]
+1 Mighty Composite Longbow      [2730 gp; Darkwood; 1d8+4 x3 add +3str bon to dmg]
Arrows, Cold Iron (20)         [40 gp; in weightless storage]
Arrows, Regular (40)         [40 gp; in weightless storage]
Efficient Quiver         [1800 gp]
Masterwork Cold Iron Warhammer x2  [648 gp; 1d8+9 x2]
Cold Iron Caltrops x5         [10 gp; in weightless storage]
Flashpellet x4            [200 gp; thrown, 10' radius, Ref DC 15 or dazzled 1 min]
Silk Rope             [20 gp; 100', +2 use rope, 10 lbs.]

FSOUL SPELLS:  6  7     4
SPELLS KNOWN:  6  4     3
0 - Cure Minor Wounds, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Mending, Purify food and drink, Read Magic
1 - Bless, Divine Favor, Faith Healing (as max CLW; 12 hps), Protection from Evil
2 - Align Weapon, Silence, Spiritual Weapon

Stat block assumes someone gets Bless up, but other spells are not factored in.
Last edited by moritheil on Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'
Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'
Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
Gormal
Sojourner
Posts: 3914
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: A Whale's Vagina
Contact:

Postby Gormal » Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:58 pm

Since you picked a prestige class that is pretty damned close to something that would be cool for Gormal, (since he's a warhammer-wielding dwarven fighter...) this should be easy. I assume we're starting at level 1, but what level do you become (if at all) a prestige class. Or is it something that you're just specializing in or changing from fighter to prestige class...
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:06 pm

Gormal wrote:Since you picked a prestige class that is pretty damned close to something that would be cool for Gormal, (since he's a warhammer-wielding dwarven fighter...) this should be easy. I assume we're starting at level 1, but what level do you become (if at all) a prestige class. Or is it something that you're just specializing in or changing from fighter to prestige class...


I edited the post to link to Hammer of Moradin so you can see what a prestige class looks like. In this case:

To qualify to become a hammer of Moradin, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

Race: Dwarf.
Region: The Spine of the World.
Base Attack Bonus: +7.
Skills: Craft (weaponsmithing) 10 ranks.
Feats: Iron Will, Weapon Focus (warhammer).
Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells.
Patron Deity: Moradin.
Special: The candidate must be a member of the hammers of Moradin.


There is no set level at which one enters a PrC, though usually earlier is better. The earliest one can get BAB +7 is 7th level (fighters get the best progression at +1/level. But what about the 2nd-level divine casting? That's where the four levels in Favored Soul come in. Favored Souls get the cleric/rogue attack progression, also referred to as "3/4." So you lose 1 BAB over the four levels of FS, but gain the ability to cast 2nd-level divine spells, which you need. You also gain Weapon Focus from Favored Soul at 3rd level, which again is needed.

Note that this is not the only way to do it: you could spend a feat from Fighter or one of your normal bonus feats to gain Weapon Focus if you didn't want to enter Favored Soul. You could also be a cleric with the War domain and gain Weapon Focus at 1st level (in fact, a cleric with the War domain is probably superior to a Favored Soul at lower levels.) Heck, you could even be a Paladin with 2nd-level spells and enter the class that way (though paladins don't get 2nd-level spells until 8th level, so you still wouldn't be able to be a Hammer of Moradin until 9th level.)

It turns out that the sheet above, which I built a while ago, contains one error: It doesn't have Iron Will! So in order to make this sheet correct, we would probably want to drop Endurance and swap it with Iron Will (I probably misremembered the requirements when I first wrote the sheet.)
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
Gormal
Sojourner
Posts: 3914
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: A Whale's Vagina
Contact:

Postby Gormal » Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:20 pm

Okay, I'm going to try the HoM route, but will peruse all of my options and customize a bit. It might take me a while to get things done. My email is thompsjs (at) halsey dot navy dot mil

email me so we can chat kinda... remember i'm in the ocean no aim.
Arilin Nydelahar
Sojourner
Posts: 1498
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Virginia Beach
Contact:

Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:31 pm

Hrm. I really am ok not dealing with a prestige class. Straight up monk works for me. Would the char sheet I already made work for this? With a change of name ofc.
Shevarash OOC: 'what can I say, I'm attracted to crazy chicks and really short dudes'
Gormal
Sojourner
Posts: 3914
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: A Whale's Vagina
Contact:

Postby Gormal » Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:35 pm

email me mike!
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ragorn » Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:36 pm

Ugh, I hate the Favored Soul. You could get into Hammer of Mordain one level earlier going Cleric, and you'd be a better caster for it. Favored Soul uses Cha to determine bonus spells and Wis to determine spell DCs, and though I see you min/maxed both stats a bit, I think going Cleric and using Cha as a dump stat makes you a better character overall.

Since you're only getting a couple spells of low level, I don't think you really need the flexibility of the FS's spontaneous casting. Memorize Divine Favor, Bless, Bull's Strength, and go knock some heads ;)

Also, Dwarves are widely considered to be the "best" race in core, especially for Fighters and Fighter-derivatives. Enjoy @ once, Gormal :)
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Gormal
Sojourner
Posts: 3914
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: A Whale's Vagina
Contact:

Postby Gormal » Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:46 pm

As it should be.

You should email me too Joe.
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:52 pm

Rags - I'll agree that Cleric > FS, but you don't actually get to enter HoM any earlier going cleric than FS. It's true you get 2nd spells earlier, but because of BAB restrictions you still don't get into HoM earlier than 9th (qualifying at 8th.) I built this using FS because it was an NPC I used in a campaign and I didn't want to be bothered making a prep spell list.

Arilin - I haven't looked at your char sheet, but PrCs are by no means mandatory. Indeed, they are irrelevant at low levels. Monks also generally tend to lose more and benefit less from multiclassing, so there is sound reasoning behind your decision.

Gormal - I'm running around all day, pretty much every day, so it's easiest for me to just pop into the boards. (I also don't really trust these public terminals with my email.) PM me over the boards here if you want to talk.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
Gormal
Sojourner
Posts: 3914
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: A Whale's Vagina
Contact:

Postby Gormal » Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:54 pm

thompsjd (at) halsey dot navy dot mil

sorry I can't type tonight.
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:03 pm

OK, Arilin, I went back and looked up your char sheet.

To answer an earlier question of yours, no core class has racial requirements, but prestige classes often do. Since you don't care about them, don't worry about it. :D

Let's look at stats. You have a 12 con but haven't added +1 to your hps (max d8 = 8, +1 from con = 9.) You have 13 str but haven't added your str mod to damage (should be 1d6+1.)

High Dex . . . interesting. I should point out now that powergamers' analyses regularly point to Str as being more important than Dex for meleers - using Dex to do things eats up feats. If you don't care about being outdamaged, don't worry. I'm also a bit surprised that Wis isn't your highest stat, as a monk, but that's also up to you. Wis determines stunning fist save DC as well as armor bonus, and improves the Listen and Spot skills, which are important (a party with all low Listen/Spot scores will begin many of their fights at a disadvantage.)

Speaking of feats, you seem to be missing a first-level feat. I recommend going to the Crystalkeep list and looking at FR regional feats for elves, some of which are quite nice. For example, monks normally attain Native Outsider status at level 20, but did you know that at the cost of your first-level feat, you can be a native Outsider at level 1 with a +2 bonus to Diplomacy? (Whether being an Outsider is good or bad is the subject of some debate; at low levels, it's good, but at very high levels, it's arguably bad. It does make you immune to spells like charm person.)

You haven't done your skill ranks; I suggest maxing Tumble, Hide, and Move Silently, as monks in 3.5 can easily fill a rogue niche (sneaking around and taking out enemy casters.) Knowledge skills are also good if you want to have some idea of what you're fighting. Of course, Listen and Spot will help you get the drop on enemies as well.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
Gormal
Sojourner
Posts: 3914
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: A Whale's Vagina
Contact:

Postby Gormal » Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:39 pm

Here's the beginning of my character. I didn't like the CHA properties of favored soul, so I went cleric and as such I'm playing Koray Stoneforge now!

http://www.sylnae.net/3eprofiler/view.php?id=41299

Haven't touched feats/skills yet really.
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ragorn » Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:40 pm

moritheil wrote:Rags - I'll agree that Cleric > FS, but you don't actually get to enter HoM any earlier going cleric than FS. It's true you get 2nd spells earlier, but because of BAB restrictions you still don't get into HoM earlier than 9th (qualifying at 8th.)

Oh you tricksy hobbit, you're right. Notably, you can also get in at 8th by playing straight Ranger or straight Paladin, but that's a bit beside your point I think ;)

By the way Arilin, I suggest you stick to core feats at first. The Forgotten Realms book is a splatbook that isn't widely used in standard campaigns, because a lot of the regional feats Mori talks about are ridiculously broken in normal play. I don't allow anything from FR in my adventures unless we're actually playing in Faerun (though I'll allow certain Eberron or Ravenloft elements if the players want).

Either way, for people who are making their first character, I strongly suggest sticking to the core rules, and worrying about Crystal Keep and splatbooks when you've got some play experience under your belt.
Last edited by Ragorn on Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:40 pm

I hate 3e profilers :-(

Btw, your sheet isn't visible - maybe you need to make it public?
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:45 pm

Ragorn wrote:
moritheil wrote:Rags - I'll agree that Cleric > FS, but you don't actually get to enter HoM any earlier going cleric than FS. It's true you get 2nd spells earlier, but because of BAB restrictions you still don't get into HoM earlier than 9th (qualifying at 8th.)

Oh you tricksy hobbit, you're right. Notably, you can also get in at 8th by playing straight Ranger or straight Paladin, but that's a bit beside your point I think ;)


Well, yes, though I did mention paladin 8th ;)

By the way, I suggest you stick to core feats at first. The Forgotten Realms book is a splatbook that isn't widely used in standard campaigns, because a lot of the regional feats Mori talks about are ridiculously broken in normal play. I don't allow anything from FR in my adventures unless we're actually playing in Faerun (though I'll allow certain Eberron or Ravenloft elements if the players want).


I find Eb to be on the same power level as FR, but I don't want to argue the matter. Let's just say that balance is a matter of perception. I only suggest FR feats and PrCs here because I intend to run an FR campaign. And I have to mention the regional feats now, because they can only be taken at first level.

Either way, for people who are making their first character, I strongly suggest sticking to the core rules, and worrying about Crystal Keep and splatbooks when you've got some play experience under your belt.


I guess. The thing is, once you get out there into the wide world of splatbooks, there will be very few core feats that you actually use, aside from qualification feats for PrCs. Therefore, knowledge of core feats is not as helpful in expanded campaigns. What that says about WOTC's sense of balance is left as an exercise for the reader. :P

I should mention, though, before we go any further, that Crystalkeep is known to have occasional errors. First, their rules wording is not exact, which can make a big difference from time to time. Second, they occasionally mix up feat names and rules text.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
Gormal
Sojourner
Posts: 3914
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: A Whale's Vagina
Contact:

Postby Gormal » Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:51 pm

moritheil wrote:I hate 3e profilers :-(

Btw, your sheet isn't visible - maybe you need to make it public?


Fixed

http://www.sylnae.net/3eprofiler/view.php?id=41299
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:02 pm

Gormal wrote:
moritheil wrote:I hate 3e profilers :-(

Btw, your sheet isn't visible - maybe you need to make it public?


Fixed

http://www.sylnae.net/3eprofiler/view.php?id=41299


I see it now :) I guess people prefer preformatted sheets after all. I myself prefer the text-based sheet because I often choose obscure feats/classes/abilities that are not supported by standardized sheets. :P

What I recommend now is going to d20srd.org and reading up on the Cleric class. Fighter is pretty straightforward (aside from your feat choices, which should be carefully considered), but as a casting class, Cleric deserves attention. In particular, choose your domains carefully. I recommend War because it gives you weapon focus as a free bonus feat, though its domain spell at 1st is highly questionable.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
Gormal
Sojourner
Posts: 3914
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: A Whale's Vagina
Contact:

Postby Gormal » Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:05 pm

I plan on moving it out of there, it was nice for the auto-calculation stuff though. I'm thinking about this feat... we can only take regional feats at level 1 you said right?


Name Source Prerequisite Description
Magic in the Blood
Regional]
(PGF p40)
Must be from one of the following races & regions:
Dwarf – Oldonnar, Underdark [Darklands]
Elf – Menzoberranyr
Gnome – Great Dale, Thesk, Underdark [Northdark]
Planetouched – Calimshan, Mulhorand, Unther
Racial Spell-Like abilities that your race can use once per day, you
can use these abilities 3 times per day. For example, a Gnome’s
Dancing Lights.
Gormal
Sojourner
Posts: 3914
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: A Whale's Vagina
Contact:

Postby Gormal » Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:34 pm

Also, multiclassing: I can have a ftr/clr multiclass with no penalties? What would be the downside, or is it expected that you get ranks in multiple areas? And would I still be elligible for HoM later if I decide to go for it?
Arilin Nydelahar
Sojourner
Posts: 1498
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Virginia Beach
Contact:

Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:42 pm

So I guess i'm just lost here. Stats wise, I'll keep them the way I rolled. Race and clase will be the same as what's on the char sheet. Though I thought I had picked the feat. Improved Unarmed Strike so I could get Stunning Fist?

As far as skills, not sure where to list them but I know the ones I want. Balance, Tumble, Move Silently, and Hide.

Also, if I get those skills to 2 points, I could get the racial feat of lightfeet I think? as an elf. Not sure about the regional thing.
Shevarash OOC: 'what can I say, I'm attracted to crazy chicks and really short dudes'
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ragorn » Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:47 pm

moritheil wrote:I guess. The thing is, once you get out there into the wide world of splatbooks, there will be very few core feats that you actually use, aside from qualification feats for PrCs. Therefore, knowledge of core feats is not as helpful in expanded campaigns. What that says about WOTC's sense of balance is left as an exercise for the reader. :P

Well, splatbooks build off core, so many of the core feats are designed to be taken at low levels to fill pre-requisite for splat feats later on. Same with prestige classes really, you play the core class to meet the pre-reqs. And core still has a lot of very usable feats, such as the metamagics (Extend, Empower, and Maxi in particular), Improved Init, Spring Attack, Power Atk/Cleave, PB/Precise Shot, Spell Focus/Penetration, Weapon Finesse, and so on. These are feats which are very often central to an entire character concept, and while they might not be as game-impacting as later feats, they allow your character to accomplish some fundamentally important things.

Your campaign :) Just my suggestions. It's easier for people to get acquainted with the system when you introduce core first, and then build on it later with splatbooks. You can make a very workable Cleric/Fighter with just Power Attack/Cleave, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Spec. Sure he won't be type Outsider, but Jake'll enjoy the sound of his hammer clanging off orc skulls :)

Arilin - Check out the Monk class page. Monks get Improved Unarmed Strike AND either Stunning Fist or Improved Grapple for free at level 1, and you get to pick ANOTHER feat on top of those!
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:53 pm

Gormal wrote:Also, multiclassing: I can have a ftr/clr multiclass with no penalties? What would be the downside, or is it expected that you get ranks in multiple areas? And would I still be elligible for HoM later if I decide to go for it?


Excellent question. Fighter is a favored class for Dwarves. Thus, there is no multiclass penalty. (There wouldn't be a multiclass penalty anyway for a Fighter 4/Cleric 4, because the levels are even, but you can have fighter and any other single class in any combination of levels without taking an XP penalty.)

You may want to be careful with the term "ranks," which is applied only to skills.

According to the rules for Regional feats, they can only be taken at level 1. I'm not really sure what you want Magic in the Blood for; it is a potent feat, but I don't think Dwarves get any racial Sp abilities. Also, note that surface Dwarves can't actually take the feat:

Dwarf – Oldonnar, Underdark

Arilin wrote:So I guess i'm just lost here. Stats wise, I'll keep them the way I rolled. Race and clase will be the same as what's on the char sheet. Though I thought I had picked the feat. Improved Unarmed Strike so I could get Stunning Fist?

As far as skills, not sure where to list them but I know the ones I want. Balance, Tumble, Move Silently, and Hide.

Also, if I get those skills to 2 points, I could get the racial feat of lightfeet I think? as an elf. Not sure about the regional thing.


Okay . . . Stats, I'm not sure about. I was going to give everyone 40-pt buy (it's like the 28-pt buy Ragorn went into, but you have more points and thus awesome stats) to be even, but I figured everyone involved should vote on that first.

IUS doesn't need to be picked if you're a monk - all monks get it free at first level (and actually have a slightly superior version of it when compared to a fighter who picks IUS as a feat. Note that you can't take IUS at 1 unless you are a monk, and if you are a monk you get it for free, meaning that no one ever need select IUS at 1.)

The regional FR feats are, as Ragorn says, imbalanced (my estimates place each regional feat as being worth 1.5 regular feats, possibly up to 2 if you compare them to subpar feats.) I offer them because we're in an FR campaign, but you don't have to take one. I'm going into a lot of options here, so you're totally within your rights to say, "Stop; I'm not interested in that stuff." ;)
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:02 pm

Ragorn wrote:Your campaign :) Just my suggestions. It's easier for people to get acquainted with the system when you introduce core first, and then build on it later with splatbooks. You can make a very workable Cleric/Fighter with just Power Attack/Cleave, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Spec. Sure he won't be type Outsider, but Jake'll enjoy the sound of his hammer clanging off orc skulls :)


Your point is well-taken. We'll try to focus more on the basics. (Though - nitpicking - I have to add that no feat would have made the dwarf an Outsider; only elves have that option!)

And of course, you beat me to explaining Monk IUS to Arilin. :P

Arilin - We should get back to basics, so let me suggest that you compare feats such as Lightfeet with feats such as Skill Focus (the standard, bland core feat that gives +3 to one skill) as a way of appreciating the difference between core feats and splatbook feats.

Note that they offer different things - Skill Focus makes you better at Move Silently, period. It doesn't let you do anything that the skill doesn't already do. On the other hand, Lightfeet doesn't actually improve your Move Silently except when you're in difficult terrain, but it does give you a benefit that more ranks in MS won't give - it makes you harder to track.

But there are other feats, as well (a truism of 3.5: there are always other feats.) For example, Stealthy is a core feat that gives +2 to Hide and Move Silently - arguably better than Skill Focus.

And yes, it would be fine to take Lightfeet as long as you allocate skill points accordingly.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
Arilin Nydelahar
Sojourner
Posts: 1498
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Virginia Beach
Contact:

Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:27 pm

Alrighty. Sorry for being dense. I'm making this far harder than it should be I spose.

So, 40 point by in. All stats still start at 8, right?
Along with that, as a monk my skill points are (4+Int Modifier)x4 for first level.

As a monk I get Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and also get to choose Stunning Fist, and i'll be going with Skill Focus (Move Silently) once I list out my skills.

Question is now, with skills. Same point by system? Let's say I have 16 points total to spend. I blow 10 on Hide. That puts hide at 10 right? Or is it like stats where past a certain number it takes 2 points a pop?

I'll be editing this post with basic info for the monk. Redoing stats right now.


Assuming i'm correct here. Updated stats, racial bonuses applied

Str 14(+2)
Dex 16(+3)
Con 12(+1)
Wis 16(+3)
Int 12(+1)
Cha 10(+0)

HP=9(I believe?)
AC=16(I believe as well)

Feats:
Improved Unarmed Strike(Bonus)
Stunning Fist(Selected)
Skill Focus (Move Silently)

Skills - If I read right I get 20 skill points at first level, and 5 every level thereafter.

Escape Artist(Dex) = 4+3(Dex Bonus) = 7
Hide(Dex) = 4+3(Dex Bonus) = 7
Tumble(Dex) = 4+3(Dex Bonus) = 7
Move Silently(Dex) = 4+3(Dex Bonus) = 7
Balance(Dex) = 4+3(Dex Bonus) = 7
Listen(Wis) (+2 Racial Bonus) +3(Wis Bonus) = 5
Spot(Wis) (+2 Racial Bonus) +3(Wis Bonus) = 5
Search(Int) (+2 Racial Bonus) +1(Int Bonus) = 3


That all adds up to 20.. So, is that good, yes?
Last edited by Arilin Nydelahar on Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:50 am, edited 4 times in total.
Shevarash OOC: 'what can I say, I'm attracted to crazy chicks and really short dudes'
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ragorn » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:08 pm

Skills are a one-for-one tradeoff for in-class skills, or a two-for-one trade for cross-class skills. Take a look at the list of skills found on the Monk class page, those are your in-class skills. Anything not on that list is cross-class, and costs two points for every 1 rank you get.

You should also add your stat bonuses to the appropriate skills. Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, and Balance all get +4 because they're Dex-based skills. Listen and Spot are Wisdom-based, so they get your +1 Wisdom modifier. Diplomacy gets +1 from your Charisma, and Search gets +1 from your Intelligence.

Advice: Raise your Wisdom score a bit. Monks add their Wisdom modifier to their armor class, so the higher your Wisdom, the harder you are to hit. Wisdom also determines how hard it is for an enemy to resist being stunned by your Stunning Fist. You don't REALLY use Charisma for anything major, so you can go down to 10 Cha and up to 14 Wis without suffering any serious side effects.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:36 pm

moritheil wrote:I'm also a bit surprised that Wis isn't your highest stat, as a monk, but that's also up to you. Wis determines stunning fist save DC as well as armor bonus, and improves the Listen and Spot skills, which are important (a party with all low Listen/Spot scores will begin many of their fights at a disadvantage.)


Let me just echo that. :wink:

Also . . . skills are capped at level +3, so 4 is the max number of ranks you can have in any skill at level 1. If this is confusing, read the d20srd.org section on Skills; really the best way to learn the fundamentals is checking the rules text.

So, basically, with 20 skill points, I'd look at maxing five skills, and sticking with them throughout your career. You're not going to multiclass, so Concentration is pretty much useless for you . . . I'd go all into Listen, Spot, Hide, Move Silently, and one other - I think you expressed an interest in Balance; that's a solid choice, though Tumble is more popular because it enables you to move around the battlefield without provoking attacks of opportunity.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
Arilin Nydelahar
Sojourner
Posts: 1498
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Virginia Beach
Contact:

Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:26 pm

So I suck at this it seems.

Reworked it again. Dropped 2 from Dex and put 2 into Wis, so they're both 16 now. Dropped diplomacy as well. Am I getting closer, or am I just hopeless here? :P
Shevarash OOC: 'what can I say, I'm attracted to crazy chicks and really short dudes'
Birile
Sojourner
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Albany, NY

Postby Birile » Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:30 pm

OMG I totally want in on this--and yes, as a Bard.

I checked out the d20srd website and saw the Savage Bard variant--are these generally allowed/disallowed?

Also, how high do characters generally go in level in the run of the mill campaign? I'm a planner and would want to plan my entire character before even playing (ie. multi, prestige, etc.).

And, of course, any general advice on the Bard class in D&D would be much appreciated. :D
Gormal
Sojourner
Posts: 3914
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: A Whale's Vagina
Contact:

Postby Gormal » Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:10 pm

I'm down for whatever with respect to how many points we get... I did it with a 28 point system, if we wanna do 40 that's cool too , then my char will pwn!
Birile
Sojourner
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Albany, NY

Postby Birile » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:47 am

Regarding skills:

Your racial bonuses only count if you take a skill, right? So as a Halfling I have a +2 racial bonus to Move Silently, but only if I spend a skill point in it first, right? Otherwise, it's treated as though I don't have the skill. Or am I wrong? (this would affect Arilin's skill allocations, I think)

And Mori, when you say skills are capped at level +3, is that counting racial/ability bonuses? Or do we cap the skill and then have the ability to add our bonuses on top of that? That would make a big difference...

Thx :)
Oghma
Staff Member - Admin
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 6:25 pm

Postby Oghma » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:05 am

Birile wrote:Regarding skills:

Your racial bonuses only count if you take a skill, right? So as a Halfling I have a +2 racial bonus to Move Silently, but only if I spend a skill point in it first, right? Otherwise, it's treated as though I don't have the skill. Or am I wrong? (this would affect Arilin's skill allocations, I think)


As long as the skill is usable untrained (most are, especially the ones that are racial traits), then you are able to use that racial bonus!

And Mori, when you say skills are capped at level +3, is that counting racial/ability bonuses? Or do we cap the skill and then have the ability to add our bonuses on top of that? That would make a big difference...

Thx :)


You're capped out at putting ranks into skills equal to level plus 3. Racial, ability, and equipment bonuses are just extra frosting after that!
Oghma The Lord of Knowledge, God of Bards
[ Administrator ] of TorilMUD
Birile
Sojourner
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Albany, NY

Postby Birile » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:14 am

Oghma wrote:
Birile wrote:Regarding skills:

Your racial bonuses only count if you take a skill, right? So as a Halfling I have a +2 racial bonus to Move Silently, but only if I spend a skill point in it first, right? Otherwise, it's treated as though I don't have the skill. Or am I wrong? (this would affect Arilin's skill allocations, I think)


As long as the skill is usable untrained (most are, especially the ones that are racial traits), then you are able to use that racial bonus!

And Mori, when you say skills are capped at level +3, is that counting racial/ability bonuses? Or do we cap the skill and then have the ability to add our bonuses on top of that? That would make a big difference...

Thx :)


You're capped out at putting ranks into skills equal to level plus 3. Racial, ability, and equipment bonuses are just extra frosting after that!


*hero*
Gormal
Sojourner
Posts: 3914
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: A Whale's Vagina
Contact:

Postby Gormal » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:45 am

Questions about multiclassing:

1) What does it mean to multiclass. Do I choose to multiclass in order to gain access to that class's feats? Or does selecting fighter feats make me a multiclassed character? (I'm a cleric who wants to be a fighter as well since its dwarven preferred).

2) Do I have a primary class, or am just a clr/ftr and my levels depend on where I put my experience as I go?

3) Do I gain all of the abilities/bonuses/whatever of a 1st level cleric and fighter?

4) What are the drawbacks to multiclassing?
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:48 pm

Birile wrote:I checked out the d20srd website and saw the Savage Bard variant--are these generally allowed/disallowed?

Also, how high do characters generally go in level in the run of the mill campaign? I'm a planner and would want to plan my entire character before even playing (ie. multi, prestige, etc.).

And, of course, any general advice on the Bard class in D&D would be much appreciated. :D


Sure, I allow variants. I'm a pretty liberal DM as long as things are legal by the rules. :D (If anyone tries to play Pun-Pun, Ao will smite you!)

How high chars go is entirely a function of campaign length. As I have no idea if people will want to keep going after the first story arc, we'll have to wait and see. I ran a campaign from 1-13 that took a year (though in all fairness it had 10+ players, so things might be a tiny bit faster with a tight group.)

Advice for bards: You need to specialize. Yes, bard is a jack of all trades, but unless your group has 6 or more people, there's probably some hole in skills or abilities that could use filling, and the bard can step up to fill it. That doesn't mean that you're going to only do that one thing, just that it's best to check out what other people can and can't do and plan accordingly. Bard song is super-potent at low levels; there's a way to get the song to give a +3 really early on, though I forget if it requires the extra feat slot from being a human. In any case, +2 should still be possible, and that is no laughing matter at first level - it should make a huge difference in combat.

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:So I suck at this it seems.

Reworked it again. Dropped 2 from Dex and put 2 into Wis, so they're both 16 now. Dropped diplomacy as well. Am I getting closer, or am I just hopeless here? :P


The cost of 18 and 16 is not the same. 18 is building past 16, so each point costs 3 (17 costs 3 pts, and 18 costs 3 pts) for a total of 6 pts. By way of contrast, going from 14 to 16 is done at a cost of 2 each for 4 pts.

Confused? Point buy works off the preexisting bonus, with a minimum cost of 1 point. Thus it's 1 pt per ability score point up to 14 (because before 14 your modifier is +1 or less), +2 each to 16, +3 each to 18, +4 each to 20 . . .

Oghma wrote:You're capped out at putting ranks into skills equal to level plus 3. Racial, ability, and equipment bonuses are just extra frosting after that!


Living up to your concept as a purveyor of knowledge! Indeed Oghma is right; skill ranks are capped at 3, but your overall check is = 1d20 + various modifiers + skill ranks.

Nermal wrote:1) What does it mean to multiclass. Do I choose to multiclass in order to gain access to that class's feats? Or does selecting fighter feats make me a multiclassed character? (I'm a cleric who wants to be a fighter as well since its dwarven preferred).


You may be confused by the designation of a class of feats as "fighter feats." Essentially Fighter feats are feats that can be taken as fighter bonuses. The point is that Fighters get bonus feats at 1, 2, 4, 6, 8 ... but said bonus feats can't just be any feats out of the book. Only "fighter feats" can be bought with these bonus feat slots. Anyone can take fighter feats, but not any feat can be taken with a bonus fighter feat slot.

2) Do I have a primary class, or am just a clr/ftr and my levels depend on where I put my experience as I go?


The short answer is, just level up as you go.

4) What are the drawbacks to multiclassing?


First, if you don't multiclass evenly, you take XP penalties. The exception to this is favored classes, which allow you to override that. So a dwarf can have fighter and any other one class in any proportion. If an elf wanted to be a cleric/fighter (elves have favored class wizard, so that doesn't come into play) he'd be stuck keeping clr and ftr within 1 level of each other at all times. Note that even that allows for flexibility in terms of which levels are taken when: clr 2, then ftr 2? ftr 1, clr 2, ftr 2? ftr 2, clr 2? It's up to the player.

Second, due to the way spell resistance and dispel magic work, caster level is pretty important for primary casters. If all you're going to do is heal with your spells, it doesn't matter as much, but if you plan to blast enemies, silence people, summon pets, etc. then caster level becomes huge.

3) Do I gain all of the abilities/bonuses/whatever of a 1st level cleric and fighter?


Only if you go Clr 1/Ftr 1 or Ftr 1/Clr 1. Multiclassing isn't like 2ed multiclassing, where you start out multiclassed. It's more a matter of piling on levels as you go. :wink:
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ragorn » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:06 pm

Gormal wrote:Questions about multiclassing:

1) What does it mean to multiclass. Do I choose to multiclass in order to gain access to that class's feats? Or does selecting fighter feats make me a multiclassed character? (I'm a cleric who wants to be a fighter as well since its dwarven preferred).

2) Do I have a primary class, or am just a clr/ftr and my levels depend on where I put my experience as I go?

3) Do I gain all of the abilities/bonuses/whatever of a 1st level cleric and fighter?

4) What are the drawbacks to multiclassing?

Mori did a good job of answering, but I can throw more information at you.

1) "Feats" is the wrong term to use here. Every class gets access to semi-unique class abilities. For casters, that means spells. For Rogues, you get defensive abilities such as Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, and you get tons of skill points and some really useful in-class skills. Fighters just happen to get a ton of feats as their main class ability. Everyone gets a few feats as they level up (one per 3 levels). Fighters get a TON of feats (one every other level in addition to the usual one per 3 levels).

People multiclass into Fighter because they want more feats.

2) You do not have a primary class. Every time you level up, you can choose which class to put that level into. You are 100% completely free and clear to choose whichever class you'd like to level up in. You can create a Fighter 10, a Fighter 8 / Cleric 2, a Fighter 5 / Cleric 5, or any other combination you want. Hell, you can take one level in EVERY class if you really want to.

3) I think I see where you're confused. When you multiclass, you are not leveling up as a "Cleric/Fighter." When you gain a level, you don't gain the abilities of both classes at the same time, you pick one or the other to advance.

Your character has what's called his "character level." You're already familiar with this concept, it's the total number of times you've gone up a level in the history of your character. The max CHARACTER LEVEL in core-rules D&D is 20. You also have what's called "class levels." When you roll your character, you get one class level. When you gain a character level, you also get one class level, which you can assign to any class you want. Your character level is simply the SUM of all of your class levels.

So let's say you start Gormal as a Cleric, and you go adventuring. When you gain enough experience to reach character level 2, you have a choice. You can either become a Cleric 2, or you can become a Cleric 1 / Fighter 1. Either way, you're still considered a 2nd level character.

Let's say you choose to multiclass, and you're now a Cleric 1 / Fighter 1. When you gain enough experience to reach 3rd level, you can choose to become a Cleric 2 / Fighter 1, or you can choose to be a Cleric 1 / Fighter 2. Hell, you don't even have to stop at two classes... if you really want to, you can even be a Cleric 1 / Fighter 1 / Bard 1.

4) With that system in mind, you can probably already see the downside to multiclassing. Many of the game's strongest abilities come late in a class's progression. If you play Gormal all the way through to level 20, and you make him a Cleric 10 / Fighter 10, he'll be a very powerful character. However, since he's technically only a Cleric of 10th level, he will only have access to 5th level Cleric spells. He'll get a wide variety of useful spells, but he won't be able to cast some of the very best ones (Heal, Resurrection, Blade Barrier, and Miracle, to name a few). He also won't have access to the later Fighter feats, such as Weapon Supremacy, Defensive Sweep, and Rapid Blitz (I know these aren't core, Mori ;) ).

So that's your tradeoff. You can stay focused in a single class and get the most powerful class abilities, or you multiclass and become more versatile. Your Cleric/Fighter can't cast Resurrection, but he's going to be pretty good at pounding things with his hammer, and he can use his Cleric spells to buff and heal himself while he's at it.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Birile
Sojourner
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Albany, NY

Postby Birile » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:03 pm

Okay, check out Birile. http://www.sylnae.net/3eprofiler/view.php?id=41373

I assumed a 40 point buy-in since we're n00bs and could use the handicap (IMHO) :lol: But 28 is fine if that's the decision made. I may change around some of the point allocations to either give myself a higher STR or INT depending on, as Mori said, what is needed most out of my Bard.

I chose Improved Initiative as my feat 'cause I wanted an almost guaranteed shot at taking action first before Arilin :P even though my Dexterity is rather high anyway.

I had allocated 14 points to both Dex and Str, and then factored in my racial modifiers, which is why Dex = 16 and Str = 12.

I chose which 0 level spells I wanted (I get 4, and get to cast 2x/day total if I'm not mistaken).

I factored in all of my racial mods wherever I could see they belonged (I put them under Random Mod or some such for lack of better place).

Haven't touched my Skills yet 'cause there are so many I want. If I'm not mistaken I get 32 points to allocate (6 + Int [2])x4.

Haven't looked at weapon/armor yet, either.

Okay, now let's hear the feedback. :)
Last edited by Birile on Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malacar
Sojourner
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby Malacar » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:27 pm

Color me confused... Is this a PBEM (play by email) game?

Just how many PCs are you taking?

I have a pretty hefty knowledge of 3.5 rules, and have PDFs and hard copies of every book out there currently (except for complete mage). Come to think of it, I now have over 60gb of scanned RPG books.. From robotech, to rifts, to D&D, to arcana evolved, to marvel super heroes. Hrmf. I should back that stuff up.

If you've got a slot, shoot me an email. :)

starkad AT gmail DOT com
Last edited by Malacar on Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Arilin Nydelahar
Sojourner
Posts: 1498
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Virginia Beach
Contact:

Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:52 pm

moritheil wrote:
Birile wrote:I checked out the d20srd website and saw the Savage Bard variant--are these generally allowed/disallowed?

Also, how high do characters generally go in level in the run of the mill campaign? I'm a planner and would want to plan my entire character before even playing (ie. multi, prestige, etc.).

And, of course, any general advice on the Bard class in D&D would be much appreciated. :D


Sure, I allow variants. I'm a pretty liberal DM as long as things are legal by the rules. :D (If anyone tries to play Pun-Pun, Ao will smite you!)

How high chars go is entirely a function of campaign length. As I have no idea if people will want to keep going after the first story arc, we'll have to wait and see. I ran a campaign from 1-13 that took a year (though in all fairness it had 10+ players, so things might be a tiny bit faster with a tight group.)

Advice for bards: You need to specialize. Yes, bard is a jack of all trades, but unless your group has 6 or more people, there's probably some hole in skills or abilities that could use filling, and the bard can step up to fill it. That doesn't mean that you're going to only do that one thing, just that it's best to check out what other people can and can't do and plan accordingly. Bard song is super-potent at low levels; there's a way to get the song to give a +3 really early on, though I forget if it requires the extra feat slot from being a human. In any case, +2 should still be possible, and that is no laughing matter at first level - it should make a huge difference in combat.

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:So I suck at this it seems.

Reworked it again. Dropped 2 from Dex and put 2 into Wis, so they're both 16 now. Dropped diplomacy as well. Am I getting closer, or am I just hopeless here? :P


The cost of 18 and 16 is not the same. 18 is building past 16, so each point costs 3 (17 costs 3 pts, and 18 costs 3 pts) for a total of 6 pts. By way of contrast, going from 14 to 16 is done at a cost of 2 each for 4 pts.

Confused? Point buy works off the preexisting bonus, with a minimum cost of 1 point. Thus it's 1 pt per ability score point up to 14 (because before 14 your modifier is +1 or less), +2 each to 16, +3 each to 18, +4 each to 20 . . .

Oghma wrote:You're capped out at putting ranks into skills equal to level plus 3. Racial, ability, and equipment bonuses are just extra frosting after that!


Living up to your concept as a purveyor of knowledge! Indeed Oghma is right; skill ranks are capped at 3, but your overall check is = 1d20 + various modifiers + skill ranks.

Nermal wrote:1) What does it mean to multiclass. Do I choose to multiclass in order to gain access to that class's feats? Or does selecting fighter feats make me a multiclassed character? (I'm a cleric who wants to be a fighter as well since its dwarven preferred).


You may be confused by the designation of a class of feats as "fighter feats." Essentially Fighter feats are feats that can be taken as fighter bonuses. The point is that Fighters get bonus feats at 1, 2, 4, 6, 8 ... but said bonus feats can't just be any feats out of the book. Only "fighter feats" can be bought with these bonus feat slots. Anyone can take fighter feats, but not any feat can be taken with a bonus fighter feat slot.

2) Do I have a primary class, or am just a clr/ftr and my levels depend on where I put my experience as I go?


The short answer is, just level up as you go.

4) What are the drawbacks to multiclassing?


First, if you don't multiclass evenly, you take XP penalties. The exception to this is favored classes, which allow you to override that. So a dwarf can have fighter and any other one class in any proportion. If an elf wanted to be a cleric/fighter (elves have favored class wizard, so that doesn't come into play) he'd be stuck keeping clr and ftr within 1 level of each other at all times. Note that even that allows for flexibility in terms of which levels are taken when: clr 2, then ftr 2? ftr 1, clr 2, ftr 2? ftr 2, clr 2? It's up to the player.

Second, due to the way spell resistance and dispel magic work, caster level is pretty important for primary casters. If all you're going to do is heal with your spells, it doesn't matter as much, but if you plan to blast enemies, silence people, summon pets, etc. then caster level becomes huge.

3) Do I gain all of the abilities/bonuses/whatever of a 1st level cleric and fighter?


Only if you go Clr 1/Ftr 1 or Ftr 1/Clr 1. Multiclassing isn't like 2ed multiclassing, where you start out multiclassed. It's more a matter of piling on levels as you go. :wink:


Just responding to my point. I realize that's the way points work, but before racial bonuses I was 16/14. So I flipped. I went 14/16, and then with racial I went up to 16. So it should equal out fine, yes?
Shevarash OOC: 'what can I say, I'm attracted to crazy chicks and really short dudes'
Malacar
Sojourner
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby Malacar » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:56 pm

Arilin, I assume you are referring to point buy on stats?

Here's a good chart, and how much each point costs:

Stat Cost
--------------
8 0
9 1
10 2
11 3
12 4
13 5
14 6
15 8
16 10
17 13
18 16

All racial modifiers are applied AFTER you buy your base stats.

So if you buy a 16 constitution (as a dwarf, which gets +2 con), it costs you 10 points, during character stat point buy. Then you apply the racial mods.. So you end up with an 18 con for 10 points (instead of 16).

There is a caveat - a racial mod can raise a stat above 18 at first level. So taking the same example, if you spent 16 points on con, you'd have an 18constitution.. Then applying the dwarf mods, you have a 20.

That's a lotta hps!

Second caveat (assuming stock rules, and no house modifications)! You can't lower a stat below 8 during point buy - UNLESS your racial mod lowers the stat. Thus, a dwarf can have a charisma of 6.. But a human could not.
Gormal
Sojourner
Posts: 3914
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: A Whale's Vagina
Contact:

Postby Gormal » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:51 pm

Okay, I'm going to start with the dwarven cleric 1st level substitution from the manual. I've filled in some of the basics but have a few questions and was hoping someone would make comments and point out things I've missed.

For some reason it shows the substitution gets a d10 hit dice where a regular one gets d8, and it loses turn/rebuke undead in favor of smite giants. SUggestions/comments/edits welcome.


Code: Select all

CHARACTER NAME : Koray Stoneforge
RACE: Dwarf
CLASS (LEVEL) : Cleric (1) Domain: Healing/War
... NET LEVEL : 1
ALIGNMENT : NG
SIZE : Medium
SPEED : 20 ft
TYPE : Humanoid (Dwarf)
AGE: 58  Height: 4’2”  WEIGHT: 148lbs
DIETY: Moradin


EXPERIENCE : xp
CASH : gp

ABILITY SCORES: 40 point buy: 10+6+6+6+10+2
Str 16 (+3) (16/base)
Dex 14 (+2) (14/base)
Con 16 (+3) (16/base 2/rac)
Int 14 (+2) (10/base)
Wis 16 (+3) (14/base)
Cha 8  (-1) (10/base -2/rac)

SAVES


HIT POINTS :
ARMOR CLASS
Standard :
Touch :
 

INITIATIVE :
BASE ATTACK :
RANGED :)
MELEE :

WEAPONS:
 

LANGUAGES
Common, Dwarven

RACIAL TRAITS
    *      +2 Constitution, –2 Charisma.
    *      Medium: As Medium creatures, dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
    *      Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).
    *      Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all.
    *      Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up.
    *      Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
    *      Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
    *      +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
    *      +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.
    *      +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids.
    *      +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too.
    *      +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.
    *      +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.
    *      Automatic Languages: Common and Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon.
    *      Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass dwarf ’s fighter class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing

CLASS FEATURES
 


FEATS
Clr 1: Bullheaded (Regional Feat: Spine of the World) +2 bonus on all Will saves. Cannot be shaken, though can still be frightened or panicked.



SKILLS 2 * 1 + 4 = 6
 

Spent x ranks


EQUIPMENT (total k)
 

CLR SPELLS:  3 1
SPELLS KNOWN:  3 1
Domain: 
0 - Cure Light Wounds, Light, Read Magic
1 – Cure Light Wounds
[/code]
Latreg
Sojourner
Posts: 481
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:47 pm
Location: Roanoke,Va

Postby Latreg » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:59 pm

I think the best way to understand some of these things with like different types of clerics is they are "kits" if you see what I mean. Like a cleric that has many offensive spells vs mostly heals. Which I think explains the different hit dice, but I'm not 100% sure of that.
Malacar
Sojourner
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby Malacar » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:04 pm

First and foremost.. Are you planning on wearing heavy armor, like full plate? If so, a 14 dex is overkill. Armor has a maximum dexterity bonus, and full plate has a 1. In fact I believe ALL (non-mithral.. and mithral is damned rare) heavy armor is 0 or 1. A 12 dex would be sufficient, unless you were going for dodge/etc.

Also, if you're forfeiting turn undead for smiting giants, you don't need charisma at all.

Your math looks a little off for stats.. You list con at 16, but then say 16 base and 2 race. You list wisdom at 14 base, but it reads at 16.

I'd suggest whacking the 2 points you put into charisma, the extra 1 (I'd take a 13 dex personally, incase you go for dodge eventually) from dex, and put an extra point into str, wis, or con (making it a 17... you get a stat point at 4th level, so it would be an 18, a large bump).

But that's just me. :)
Last edited by Malacar on Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malacar
Sojourner
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby Malacar » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:08 pm

Another thing, Jake... Clerics with positive energy (good aligned, or neutral that selects positive energy), don't have to memorize cure light|moderate|serious|critical wounds, or their "mass" equivalents. They can choose to 'lose' any memorized spell of the same level, and cast a cure instead. It makes for less pigeon holed clerics.

Also - your spell list shows 1 first level spell, but doesn't seem to take into account the bonus spells you get for wisdom (1 I think?), or your domain spells. It also lists 'spells known'... Clerics automatically know every spell, of every level... They just have to memorize particular spells, and can't cast them 'on the fly'.

A -GREAT- resource for those without access to the books, is d20srd.org. It has all the basic stat/skill/feat stuff out there. My group uses it during game play, to speed up looking for rules if we're confused.
Birile
Sojourner
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Albany, NY

Postby Birile » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:33 pm

Malacar wrote:Another thing, Jake... Clerics with positive energy (good aligned, or neutral that selects positive energy), don't have to memorize cure light|moderate|serious|critical wounds, or their "mass" equivalents. They can choose to 'lose' any memorized spell of the same level, and cast a cure instead. It makes for less pigeon holed clerics.

Also - your spell list shows 1 first level spell, but doesn't seem to take into account the bonus spells you get for wisdom (1 I think?), or your domain spells. It also lists 'spells known'... Clerics automatically know every spell, of every level... They just have to memorize particular spells, and can't cast them 'on the fly'.

A -GREAT- resource for those without access to the books, is d20srd.org. It has all the basic stat/skill/feat stuff out there. My group uses it during game play, to speed up looking for rules if we're confused.


Hey Malacar,

We've got a monk, bard and cleric (who will have levels in fighter to go Prestige later on) so far in case you're interested in joining...

*Edited to change ranger to monk, my bad :oops:
Malacar
Sojourner
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby Malacar » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:49 pm

Sounds like you're in need of an armored behemoth, and a rogue for traps.

Which one would you prefer?
Gormal
Sojourner
Posts: 3914
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: A Whale's Vagina
Contact:

Postby Gormal » Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:20 pm

Keep in mind that I don't have tons of access to the internet/email. I have been downloading PDF's onto my personal laptop, and I check the boards when I can, but it can be difficult to check sometimes.

With regards to my character, there are some discrepancies because I just used Mori's NPC sheet and plugged in my data. I'll go over it and check it out some more.

Code: Select all

ABILITY SCORES: 40 point buy: 12+6+6+6+10+2
Str 17 (+3) (17/base)
Dex 14 (+2) (14/base)
Con 16 (+3) (16/base 2/rac)
Int 14 (+2) (14/base)
Wis 16 (+3) (16/base)
Cha 6  (-2) (8/base -2/rac)



Do I get a domain spell and one additional 1st level spell, and do I get more if my wisdom goes higher?


The below list of skills is on the racial substitution list with the note "2 Skill Points". Do I get 2 skill points and all of the below ones, or do I get the additional 4 points Ragorn mentioned as a level 1 character? How many ranks do I get in them? Etc?


Code: Select all

INT:
Craft (weaponsmithing)
Craft Know (dungeoneering)
Know (history)
Know (Religion)
Know (Planes)
Spellcraft

WIS:
Heal
Profession

CON:
Concentrate

CHA:
Diplomacy


Edit: Shoot me an email Malacar, thompsjd (at) halsey dot navy dot mil
Birile
Sojourner
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Albany, NY

Postby Birile » Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:34 pm

Gormal wrote:Keep in mind that I don't have tons of access to the internet/email. I have been downloading PDF's onto my personal laptop, and I check the boards when I can, but it can be difficult to check sometimes.

With regards to my character, there are some discrepancies because I just used Mori's NPC sheet and plugged in my data. I'll go over it and check it out some more.

Code: Select all

ABILITY SCORES: 40 point buy: 12+6+6+6+10+2
Str 17 (+3) (17/base)
Dex 14 (+2) (14/base)
Con 16 (+3) (16/base 2/rac)
Int 14 (+2) (14/base)
Wis 16 (+3) (16/base)
Cha 6  (-2) (8/base -2/rac)



Do I get a domain spell and one additional 1st level spell, and do I get more if my wisdom goes higher?



Gormal, your info should read something like this:

ABILITY SCORES: 40 point buy: 12+6+6+6+10+0
Str 17 (+3) (17/base)
Dex 14 (+2) (14/base)
Con 16 (+3) (14/base 2/rac)
Int 14 (+2) (14/base)
Wis 16 (+3) (16/base)
Cha 6 (-2) (8/base -2/rac)

I just changed the points you allocated on the top line to reflect that you didn't put any points into Cha, and I changed the Con line to show 14/base rather than 16/base that you had written.

From what I understand, you need to allocate 3 points into Str to take it from 16 to 17, for a total of 13 points allocated--you may want to take a look at that, you've only allocated 12 points, which I believe isn't enough to take you to a 17 Str.

Also, regarding your Wisdom... if it's 16 I believe you can only cast spells up to 6th level Cleric--you won't have access to the higher and prettier spells.

Oh, and your Wisdom of 16 gives you a +3 modifier, which means you can cast 1 extra spell per day of your Level 1, Level 2 and Level 3 spells (once you are high enough level to cast those spells). And you get to choose 1 Domain spell to cast per day in addition to your "normal" spells. As someone mentioned, you already have access to every Level 1 spell a Cleric knows, so you don't get to learn additional spells--since you already know them all!

But, of course, I'm a n00b here, too, so I may have made a mistake...

:)
Last edited by Birile on Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gormal
Sojourner
Posts: 3914
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: A Whale's Vagina
Contact:

Postby Gormal » Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:39 pm

You're right about the 13 point requirement to hit 17 str... and I did forget to change that top line... Here's my final stats for Koray.


Code: Select all

ABILITY SCORES: 40 point buy: 13+5+6+6+10+0
Str 17 (+3) (17/base)
Dex 13 (+1) (13/base)
Con 16 (+3) (16/base 2/rac)
Int 14 (+2) (14/base)
Wis 16 (+3) (16/base)
Cha 6  (-2) (8/base -2/rac)
Last edited by Gormal on Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Birile
Sojourner
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Albany, NY

Postby Birile » Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:44 pm

Gormal wrote:You're right about the 13 point requirement to hit 17 str... and I did forget to change that top line... Here's my final stats for Koray.


Code: Select all

ABILITY SCORES: 40 point buy: 13+5+6+6+10+0
Str 17 (+3) (17/base)
Dex 13 (+2) (13/base)
Con 16 (+3) (16/base 2/rac)
Int 14 (+2) (14/base)
Wis 16 (+3) (16/base)
Cha 6  (-2) (8/base -2/rac)


A 13 dex gives you a +1 modifier, not +2. :)
Gormal
Sojourner
Posts: 3914
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: A Whale's Vagina
Contact:

Postby Gormal » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:02 pm

Working on my saves now, Ragorn mentioned looking up the d20srd info for classes and he said that clerics get a natural +2 bonus to Will saves, I don't see that in there... am I missing it or any other additional save bonuses?

Code: Select all

SAVES

FORT 3 (3)
REFLEX 1 (1)
WILL 5 (3 +2 Bullheaded)


Also: is this skill added directly to my Will save number, or later on when calculating a save?

Bullheaded (Regional Feat: Spine of the World) +2 bonus on all Will saves. Cannot be shaken, though can still be frightened or panicked.

Return to “Toril 2.0 Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest