Sample 3.5 Char sheet and analysis

Discussion concerning the upcoming Toril 2.0 update as well as general 3.5 edition D&D discussion
Ragorn
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:09 pm

Malacar wrote:First and foremost.. Are you planning on wearing heavy armor, like full plate? If so, a 14 dex is overkill. Armor has a maximum dexterity bonus, and full plate has a 1. In fact I believe ALL (non-mithral.. and mithral is damned rare) heavy armor is 0 or 1. A 12 dex would be sufficient, unless you were going for dodge/etc.


Dodge is a very popular and useful feat, which is a pre-requisite for a lot of other neat defensive tricks. Dodge REQUIRES that you have at least 13 Dex. I think you decided to stay with 13 Dex, which I think is a VERY good idea.

Also, if you're forfeiting turn undead for smiting giants, you don't need charisma at all.


Actually, that's not exactly true. When you use your "smite giants" ability, you add your Charisma modifier to your attack roll. But yeah, Charisma is a fairly good dump stat.

Ok, spells. With a 16 Wisdom, you get one extra spell of first-third level, provided you're high enough level to cast those spells. So, at level one, you're going to have 2+1 first level spells... two of your choice, plus a domain spell. And when you decide to cast a spell, you can sacrifice any spell you've memorized and cast the "Cure X Wounds" spell of the same level instead. This is called "spontaneous curing," and it's a Cleric class ability (all Clerics can do it). What this means is, NEVER memorize cure spells specifically. You can always "dump" a spell to cast cure light wounds later.

Finally, skills. Clerics get 2+Int skill points, so you're going to get 4 skill points per level. All characters, regardless of race or class, get four times their normal skill points at first level. So you've got a total of 16 skill points to spend.

Humans get an extra 4 skill points at level one. It's one of their racial abilities. Since you're a stinky dwarf, you don't get these bonus points :)
- Ragorn
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:12 pm

Gormal wrote:Working on my saves now, Ragorn mentioned looking up the d20srd info for classes and he said that clerics get a natural +2 bonus to Will saves, I don't see that in there.


If you look at the big chart on the Cleric page, it'll tell you that Clerics get +2 Fortitude, +0 Reflex, and +2 Will save bonuses at level 1. I didn't mean that Clerics get a "special" +2 Will bonus, I was just reading off the chart when I made that example.

I'm sorry I can't email you, my Jacob. I'm having problems with my home internet, and posting all of this from work >.<
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Postby Malacar » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:34 pm

Ragorn wrote:Actually, that's not exactly true. When you use your "smite giants" ability, you add your Charisma modifier to your attack roll. But yeah, Charisma is a fairly good dump stat.


Actually, according to races of the wild, they use constitution for this ability, not charisma. I checked that because I hadn't used the sub level for dwarf cleric before. I thought it was an appropriate and neat change. :)
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Postby Gormal » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:36 pm

I get 3 0 level spells as well, correct?
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Postby Malacar » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:39 pm

To clear up confusion here, about saving throws:

The three types (Fortitude, Reflex, Will), are all affected by a stat (con, dex, and wis respectively). However, as with everything (or nearly) in 3.5, there is always some 'base' it works from. Skills have ranks, attacks have a base attack bonus, and so on. Saves have a 'Base saving throw'.

Each class has a different base, and progression. Each category, for each class, has a 'good', and 'weak' category. Monks, for instance, have all three saves as 'good' - meaning they start at +2, and advance from there with level. Pretty much every base class has only one 'good' category.

Clerics have a 'good' will progression. Thus, they start with a BASE of +2 to their will save. It progresses from there with level. The other two saves, Fort and Ref.. Are both 'weak'. So they start at +0, and advance much slower than will.

Does that clear it up some?

Jake, I will email you a bit later - I am in a lab dealing with a raid5 array (24 scsi ultra320 300gb drives.. hooray for video streaming!). :)
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Postby Gormal » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:41 pm

Dwarven Cleric Class Features
Smite Giants
Add your Constitution modifier (if any) to your
attack roll and add your Cleric level to your
damage. Usable 1 + Constitution modifier times
per day. Opponent must be a Giant.
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Postby Gormal » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:45 pm

Malacar wrote:Clerics have a 'good' will progression. Thus, they start with a BASE of +2 to their will save. It progresses from there with level. The other two saves, Fort and Ref.. Are both 'weak'. So they start at +0, and advance much slower than will.


So my saves look like this then?


FORT: 3
REFLEX: 1
WILL: 7 (3 + 2 + 2) bullheaded/cleric
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Postby Malacar » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:56 pm

That looks correct, Jake.

One other important note to remember about bonuses...

"Like" bonuses do NOT stack (except dodge and 'typeless'.. see below). So, if you have a 'circumstance' bonus, or a 'competance' bonus.. The two will stack together. But if you have TWO competance bonuses - only the higher one takes effect.

Dodge and bonuses that do not list any 'type' stack. These are the only exceptions to the above rule.

EDIT:

The 'types' of bonuses are not limited to a list. I've seen quite a few.. Competance, Circumstance, Sacred, Profane, Holy, Luck... The list goes on. The general rule to remember is this: if a bonus is listed, it should also give a type. If no type is listed, it's typeless.
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Postby moritheil » Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:20 am

First off, thanks go out to Oghma, Ragorn, Malacar, Birile, and anyone I missed who has helped answer questions!

Malacar -

Welcome! Because this is done in the spirit of teaching 3.5 to Torilites who are more familiar with 2ed DnD, I plan to run it here on the boards in preparation for Toril 2.0 (which will be based on 3.5, as I'm sure you know :P) It will be play by post.

As for what to play, play whatever you want! There is a bard, a monk, and a cleric with a very martial bent. You mentioned rogue and armored tank, but mage and druid are also wide open. Go with what you like! :D

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:Just responding to my point. I realize that's the way points work, but before racial bonuses I was 16/14. So I flipped. I went 14/16, and then with racial I went up to 16. So it should equal out fine, yes?


Ah, okay, that's totally correct. I was just thinking that maybe you were entitled to more points. :D

Gormal -

If you need to download the SRD, this link should work.

Racial substitution levels are generally superior to standard levels in a class. Dwarven clerics get d10s on their substitution levels because dwarves are built tough. If memory serves, Dwarven rogues get d8s on their sub levels rather than d6s for the same reason.

Btw, because clerics have the good Will save progression and their primary stat happens to boost Will saves, they tend to have the best Will saves in the game. Thus, it might be overkill to take a feat that boosts Will saves (or it might not - you never know when you'll roll low.)

You do get 3 0-level spells, or "orisons." (They took the term right out of Hamlet: "Nymph, in thy orisons be all my sins remembered." You don't have to know it :P) Personally, I find the most useful spells to be purify food and drink and detect magic, though at first level they are all useful.

Gormal wrote:Do I get a domain spell and one additional 1st level spell, and do I get more if my wisdom goes higher?


Yes, clerics get domain spells, one at each spell circle ("spell level" in 3.5.) This page shows you how your ability scores determine bonus spells.

Nitpick:

Malacar wrote:Clerics have a 'good' will progression. Thus, they start with a BASE of +2 to their will save. It progresses from there with level. The other two saves, Fort and Ref.. Are both 'weak'. So they start at +0, and advance much slower than will.


Clerics have good fort AND will. Only ref is weak.

The weak pattern starts at 0 and increases at 3rd and every 3: 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, ...
The strong pattern starts at 2 and increases at 2 and every 2: 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, ...

Another minor nitpick:

Dodge and bonuses that do not list any 'type' stack. These are the only exceptions to the above rule.


IIRC, Racial bonuses stack.

With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus works. - d20srd.
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Postby Gormal » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:28 am

What kind of things does your Will save usually affect? When can I jump in front of my comrades and bravely say "Don't worry! They can't hurt me!"
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Postby Birile » Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:22 pm

Okay, question:

I've been checking out the Prestige classes and some of them have prerequisites that say "X ranks in Y skill."

When we say "ranks", is that factoring in the modifiers we get for ability, race, etc. or is that speaking of the amount of ranks we've taken (ie. points we've spent) in a particular skill? That would make a big difference for me, especially when talking about something like Hide where I have a whopping 7 based simply on my size and dexterity before even spending points. (For reference, I'm mostly looking at the Shadowdancer PrC)

Also, does taking a Prestige class count as multiclassing? So as soon as you take a level in a Prestige class you're subject to the normal exp penalties for multiclassing?

Thanks!
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:16 pm

Malacar wrote:"Like" bonuses do NOT stack (except dodge and 'typeless'.. see below). So, if you have a 'circumstance' bonus, or a 'competance' bonus.. The two will stack together. But if you have TWO competance bonuses - only the higher one takes effect.


Actually Malacar, circumstance bonuses stack too. Dodge bonuses, circumstances bonuses, and any bonus which isn't given a "bonus type" will stack with themselves.

Circumstance bonuses are just that... they're bonuses or penalties to your action based on what's happening around you. It's easy to cast a spell. However, it's hard to cast a spell in a hurricane. It's even harder to cast a spell if you're standing on the deck of a boat during a hurricane. It's harder still to cast a spell while standing on the deck of a boat during a hurricane with a raging pirate trying to bury his cutlass in your face.

In this case, the weather, the motion of the boat, and the combat would all apply "circumstance penalties" to the Concentration check needed to cast the spell. All of these circumstance penalties will stack, making you wish you stayed home instead.

Source for stacking bonuses here.

As a counter-example, wearing a suit of full plate mail gives you a +8 armor bonus to your armor class. Wearing a suit of studded leather armor gives you a +3 armor bonus to your armor class. Armor bonuses don't stack. If you're already wearing a suit of full plate, wearing studded leather under it won't help you any :)

What kind of things does your Will save usually affect? When can I jump in front of my comrades and bravely say "Don't worry! They can't hurt me!"


Fortitude saves deal with things that affect your body or your well-being. Poison, disease, disintegration, and energy drain are all Fortitude. Reflex is your ability to get out of the way of something harmful, such as a fireball, a poison needle trap, or an avalanche. Will saves govern your mental strength, and help you avoid affects such as charm, domination, fear, and confusion.

Sometimes, two saves are necessary. If you accidentally set off a poison arrow trap, you'll often get a Reflex save to avoid the arrow. If you fail the save, the arrow hits you and you'll make a Fortitude save to see if you can shrug off the poison.

I've been checking out the Prestige classes and some of them have prerequisites that say "X ranks in Y skill."


Ranks means RANKS. Bonuses from race, size, synergy, high ability scores, or items do not count toward your total ranks. If a Prestige Class requires 10 ranks, it means you MUST be level 7 to qualify for the class (since you can have, at most, level+3 ranks in a skill). And since you must meet the pre-reqs completely BEFORE taking a level in the Prestige Class, you'll qualify at level 7 and you can take the first level of the PC at level 8.

Prestige classes are never subject to experience penalties for multiclassing. Multiclassing penalties only apply if you take levels in more than one "base" class. A base class is defined as a class with no pre-requisites, a class that you could choose at level 1.
- Ragorn
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:11 pm

So when we looking to start this experiment in our D&D stupidity?
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Postby Malacar » Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:33 pm

Hah! Shows wat I know about clerics (never having played one). I need to read more before I post. Misinformation is the king of all evil. :)

Circumstance bonuses stack, eh? I'll have to mull through that. Learn something new every day!
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:56 pm

Malacar wrote:Circumstance bonuses stack, eh? I'll have to mull through that. Learn something new every day!


Yes, but very often, circumstance is used for penalties and not bonuses. Trying to tumble past three monsters over slippery, uneven ground is an example of a situation with several circumstance penalties (multiple enemies, slippery ground, uneven terrain). Trying to track an Ogre dragging a commoner through fresh snow is an example of multiple circumstance bonuses (the ogre's size, the drag marks from the commoner, and the fresh snow) :)
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Postby Malacar » Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:14 pm

Mori, will you allow an ECL +1 race (aasimar) into the game? I wanted to demonstrate the pros and cons of a 'powerful' race.
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Postby Tasan » Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:15 pm

http://www.sylnae.net/3eprofiler/view.php?id=41455

My first try after sifting through some of this info.
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Postby moritheil » Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:34 pm

Okay, at this point, Shev has generously opened up a new forum, so I am splitting off the campaign-specific talk elsewhere. I'll continue to talk about rules and builds in this thread.

Malacar wrote:Hah! Shows wat I know about clerics (never having played one). I need to read more before I post. Misinformation is the king of all evil. :)


An astounding parallel to the Father of Lies language seen in classical literature. It's brilliant, even if unintentional. :D

Circumstance bonuses stack, eh? I'll have to mull through that. Learn something new every day!


Not always - just ones that the DM determines can stack.
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:35 pm

moritheil wrote:Not always - just ones that the DM determines can stack.


In Rules as Written, all circumstance bonuses stack. Of course, the DM is free to add or remove circumstance bonuses however he sees fit, but doing so is bending the rules. If you're surrounded by a spherical Wall of Force, then it's reasonable for your DM to rule that the circumstance penalty for casting in a hurricane is partially or completely negated.

I have no problem with bending the rules. But it helps to clarify what the rules ARE when you do :)
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:55 pm

So, should we start a thread just so we can post our final char stats?

CHARACTER NAME : Thalidyrr
RACE: Elf
CLASS (LEVEL) : Monk (1)
NET LEVEL : 1
ALIGNMENT : LE
SIZE : Medium
SPEED : 30 ft
TYPE : Humanoid (Elf)
AGE: 150 Height: 5’2” WEIGHT: 110lbs



EXPERIENCE : 0
CASH : 7gp9sp left

Equipment:
Backpack (empty) 2 gp 2 lb.
Rope, hempen (50 ft.) 1 gp 10 lb.
Waterskin 1 gp 4 lb.
Monk’s outfit 5 gp 2 lb
Flint and steel 1 gp
Caltrops 1 gp 2 lb.
Pouch, belt (empty) 1 gp ½ lb.1
Bedroll 1 sp 5 lb.

ABILITY SCORES: 40 point buy: 10+6+6+10+6+2
Str 16 (+3) (16/base)
Dex 16 (+3) (14/base +2/rac)
Con 12 (+1) (14/base -2/rac)
Int 12 (+2) (12/base)
Wis 16 (+3) (16/base)
Cha 10 (+0) (8/base)

SAVES
Fortitude: +3
Reflex: +5
Will: +5


HIT POINTS : 9
ARMOR CLASS 16
Standard : 16
Touch : 16

Damage:
Unarmed - 1d6+3

INITIATIVE : +3
BASE ATTACK : +0
RANGED : +3
MELEE : +3

Skills:
Escape Artist(Dex) = 4+3(Dex Bonus) = 7
Hide(Dex) = 4+3(Dex Bonus) = 7
Tumble(Dex) = 4+3(Dex Bonus) = 7
Move Silently(Dex) = 4+3(Dex Bonus) = 7
Balance(Dex) = 4+3(Dex Bonus) = 7
Listen(Wis) (+2 Racial Bonus) +3(Wis Bonus) = 5
Spot(Wis) = 4(+2 Racial Bonus) +3(Wis Bonus) = 9
Search(Int) (+2 Racial Bonus) +1(Int Bonus) = 3

Feats:
Improved Unarmed Strike(Bonus)
Stunning Fist(Selected)
Skill Focus (Move Silently)

I think i'm ready.

Though I need to know how much gold we start with, and what we can buy?
Last edited by Arilin Nydelahar on Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby moritheil » Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:18 pm

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:So, should we start a thread just so we can post our final char stats?

I think i'm ready.

Though I need to know how much gold we start with, and what we can buy?


Good call. Give me a second and I'll set up a thread for finalized sheets. Meanwhile, feel free to look at d20srd.org and buy whatever you can afford.

First Level Starting GP: barbarian/bard - 4d4, cleric/rogue - 5d4, druid 2d4, fighter/paladin/ranger - 6d4, sorc/wizard - 3d4. all x10. monk 5d4 x 1
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Postby moritheil » Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:27 pm

Ragorn wrote:
moritheil wrote:Not always - just ones that the DM determines can stack.


In Rules as Written, all circumstance bonuses stack. Of course, the DM is free to add or remove circumstance bonuses however he sees fit, but doing so is bending the rules. If you're surrounded by a spherical Wall of Force, then it's reasonable for your DM to rule that the circumstance penalty for casting in a hurricane is partially or completely negated.

I have no problem with bending the rules. But it helps to clarify what the rules ARE when you do :)


Er, but those are the rules. "Most" circumstance bonuses stack, not all. Of course, the DM is usually the one handing out circumstance bonuses, so it's kind of a moot point, but here's the citation for it anyway in case you missed it above:

With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus works. - d20srd.
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Postby moritheil » Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:37 pm

OK, now for the in-depth review. First Nonox, then Arilin.

Nonox wrote:Str 11
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 18
Wis 13
Cha 12


Your skills and points seem to all be in order, but I can't help but wonder why the uneven distribution between Str and Wis. I get that 13 Wis qualifies you for feats, but I'm not sure what 11 Str does. I'm also not sure what your charisma modifier is for; if it's just for RP purposes, I'm cool with it, but I feel obliged to point out that basically nothing you do as a Wizard (unless you get into some obscure spells) hinges on Cha.

Spell-wise, you took SF: Enchantment, but didn't take Charm Person, the spell that would enable you to benefit from this feat. Any reason why not?

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:ARMOR CLASS 16
Standard : 16
Touch : 16


Break this up into bonuses, and it should look like this:
ARMOR CLASS
Standard : 16 (10/base 3/wis 3/dex)
Touch : 16 (10/base 3/wis 3/dex)
Flat-Footed: 13 (10/base 3/wis)

Damage:
Unarmed - 1d6+3

INITIATIVE : +3 (3/dex)
BASE ATTACK : +0
RANGED : +3 (3/dex)
MELEE : +3 (3/str)

(This sort of breakdown seems redundant at level 1, but by level 10 you'll most likely have 2 or 3 bonuses to just about everything, so it's a good habit.)

Skills:
Escape Artist(Dex): 4 +3/Dex = 7
Hide(Dex): 4 +3/Dex = 7
Tumble(Dex): 4 +3/Dex = 7
Move Silently(Dex): 4 +3/Dex +3/feat = 10
Balance(Dex): 4 +3/Dex = 7
Listen(Wis): 0 +2 (Racial Bonus) +3(Wis Bonus) = 5
Spot(Wis): 4 +2 (Racial Bonus) +3(Wis Bonus) = 9
Search(Int): 0 +2 (Racial Bonus) +1(Int Bonus) = 3

Breaking it down here allows us to easily see if you've missed something.

Feats:
Improved Unarmed Strike(Bonus)
Stunning Fist(Selected)
Skill Focus (Move Silently): +3 to MS

And writing out what each of your feats does is also a good idea. ;)
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:56 pm

So, would this be better to post, and would it be accepted as final?


CHARACTER NAME : Thalidyrr
RACE: Elf
CLASS (LEVEL) : Monk (1)
NET LEVEL : 1
ALIGNMENT : LE
SIZE : Medium
SPEED : 30 ft
TYPE : Humanoid (Elf)
AGE: 150 Height: 5’2” WEIGHT: 110lbs



EXPERIENCE : 0
CASH : 7gp9sp left

Equipment:
Backpack (empty) 2 gp 2 lb.
Rope, hempen (50 ft.) 1 gp 10 lb.
Waterskin 1 gp 4 lb.
Monk’s outfit 5 gp 2 lb
Flint and steel 1 gp
Caltrops 1 gp 2 lb.
Pouch, belt (empty) 1 gp ½ lb.1
Bedroll 1 sp 5 lb.

ABILITY SCORES: 40 point buy: 10+6+6+10+6+2
Str 16 (+3) (16/base)
Dex 16 (+3) (14/base +2/rac)
Con 12 (+1) (14/base -2/rac)
Int 12 (+2) (12/base)
Wis 16 (+3) (16/base)
Cha 10 (+0) (8/base)

SAVES
Fortitude: +3
Reflex: +5
Will: +5


HIT POINTS: 9 (8/Base 1/Con)

Armor Class:
Standard : 16 (10/Base 3/wis 3/dex)
Touch : 16 (10/Base 3/wis 3/dex)
Flat-Footed 13 (10/base 3/wis)

Damage:
Unarmed - 1d6+3

INITIATIVE: +3 (3/Dex)
BASE ATTACK : +0
RANGED: +3 (3/Dex)
MELEE: +3 (3/Dex)

Skills:
Escape Artist(Dex) = 4+3/Dex = 7
Hide(Dex) = 4+3/Dex = 7
Tumble(Dex) = 4+3/Dex = 7
Move Silently(Dex) = 4+3/Dex+3/Feat = 10
Balance(Dex) = 4+3/Dex = 7
Listen(Wis) (+2 Racial Bonus) +3(Wis) = 5
Spot(Wis) = 4(+2 Racial Bonus) +3(Wis) = 9
Search(Int) (+2 Racial Bonus) +1(Int) = 3

Feats:
Improved Unarmed Strike (bonus) - Unarmed strikes are armed.
Stunning Fist (bonus) - Fort DC 13 (10/base 0/lvl 3/wis), 1/day
Skill Focus (Move Silently) +3 to MS
Last edited by Arilin Nydelahar on Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Birile » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:02 pm

Mori, can you take a look at my sheet thus far? No skills/weapon listed, but all else is in order (I think).

http://www.sylnae.net/3eprofiler/view.php?id=41373
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Postby moritheil » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:06 pm

Yes. Though, I should point out that I didn't mean to explicitly list the feat rules text - I usually condense it to a one line description that jogs the memory. For example:

Code: Select all

Improved Unarmed Strike (bonus) - Unarmed strikes are armed.


or perhaps

Code: Select all

Improved Unarmed Strike (bonus) - always armed.


Code: Select all

Stunning Fist (bonus) - Fort DC 13 (10/base 0/lvl 3/wis), 1/day


Notice that those are just the essentials: What kind of save is it? What is the save DC? How often can you use it?

Also, your Hit points got merged into your AC somehow :P
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Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
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Postby moritheil » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:16 pm

Birile wrote:Mori, can you take a look at my sheet thus far? No skills/weapon listed, but all else is in order (I think).

http://www.sylnae.net/3eprofiler/view.php?id=41373


Sure. It looks okay. Preliminary comments:

- You have a really high Wis, and I'm not sure why. Perhaps feat qualification? I'm also not sure why you took pains to get Str 12 - melee is important at low levels, but that approaches the realm of diminishing returns, since you had a Str 14 before racial mods.

- You have a really even spread of stats, but if you're building a do-it-all bard, there's nothing wrong with that. Cha, Int, Con, and Dex are king for bards, in roughly that order.

- Improved Initiative is one of the best feats around for casters.


I'm almost tempted to mess with your build a bit due to my tweaking instincts, but this is solid.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:18 pm

Well, it didn't get merged, I just listed it the way the rest was listed :P

Other than shortening the descriptions, it ok to post?
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Postby moritheil » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:24 pm

Sure, go right ahead. We'll be editing those as characters gain loot and XP anyhow. :D
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
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Postby Gormal » Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:34 am

I'm picking out my skills, and wondering what exactly does it mean if something is a class skill? Do I automatically get ranks in that, or do I add it to my list with 0 ranks and just my ability bonus, or what?
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Postby Malacar » Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:40 pm

Class skills are bought on a '1 for 1' basis, and can have a maximum rank of [Level + 3].

Skills that are not class, are referred to as 'Cross-Class'. They are bought on a '2 for 1' basis (1 skill point buys a half-rank). These skills can only go up to *half* a class skill.

Example (assuming first level):

Class skill can have 4 ranks.
Cross class skill can have 2 ranks.

[At second level, a class skill can go to 5, whereas a cross-class can only go to 2.5]
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Postby Malacar » Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:42 pm

Here's my question... If we're trying to show the system off, why are so many picking an evil alignment? Don't we want to show how a party can complement each other, rather than destroy each other?

I think I am gonna bow out - this is Mori's game, and I won't bitch about it, but mixing evil alignments with non-evil spells disaster for a tabletop game, and kill a PbP or PbEm game right out of the box in my experience.

I'll still help with the rules, though.
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Postby Birile » Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:56 pm

moritheil wrote:
Birile wrote:Mori, can you take a look at my sheet thus far? No skills/weapon listed, but all else is in order (I think).

http://www.sylnae.net/3eprofiler/view.php?id=41373


Sure. It looks okay. Preliminary comments:

- You have a really high Wis, and I'm not sure why. Perhaps feat qualification? I'm also not sure why you took pains to get Str 12 - melee is important at low levels, but that approaches the realm of diminishing returns, since you had a Str 14 before racial mods.

- You have a really even spread of stats, but if you're building a do-it-all bard, there's nothing wrong with that. Cha, Int, Con, and Dex are king for bards, in roughly that order.

- Improved Initiative is one of the best feats around for casters.


I'm almost tempted to mess with your build a bit due to my tweaking instincts, but this is solid.


Regarding my Str--are you saying you would go lower or higher? I can't tell what you're trying to tell me LOL.

Regarding my Wis--I had a reason for it, but I can't recall now what that reason was (though I kinda like my Will saves).

I'm always open for suggestions, otherwise I wouldn't have asked!
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Postby Gormal » Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:53 pm

Damage: Warhammer – 1d8+3
INITIATIVE: +1 (1/Dex)
BASE ATTACK : +1
MELEE: +3 (3/Str)
GRAPPLE: +3 (3/Str)
RANGED: +1 (1/Dex)

The +3 is my strength bonus right?

And my BAB is correct too right?
Last edited by Gormal on Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Malacar » Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:56 pm

Yeah Jake.
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Postby Gormal » Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:46 pm

Here's my final char sheet submitted for inspection! I don't know exactly how carried weight works in DnD, but in real life, half your weight is fine... speaking from hiking experience, yay Boy Scouts! Besides, if it gets too heavy, Doug is gonna carry it anyway.


CHARACTER NAME : Koray Stoneforge
RACE: Dwarf
CLASS (LEVEL) : Cleric (1) Doman: Healing/War
NET LEVEL : 1
ALIGNMENT : NG
SIZE : Medium
SPEED : 20 ft
TYPE : Humanoid
AGE: 58 Height: 4'2” WEIGHT: 148lbs

EXPERIENCE : 0
CASH : 33gp 2sp 8cp


Equipment: 71.5lbs
Backpack (empty) – 2gp, 2lb
Bedroll - 1sp 5 lb
Blanket, winter – 5sp, 3lb
Candle x5 – 5cp, 0lb
Chalk – 1cp, 0lb
Flask (empty) – 3cp 1 ½ lb
Flint and Steel – 1gp 0lb
Parchment (sheet) x5 (1gp)
Rations, trail (12 days) - 3gp 10 lb.
Torch x3 – 3cp, 3lb
Waterskin – 1gp 4lb
Warhammer – 12gp, 1d8, x3critical – 5lb
Shield, Light Steel – 9gp, 1 bonus -1 penalty, 5% failure chance, 5lbs
Chain Shirt – 100gp, 4 bonus, 4 maximum dex bonus, -2 armor check penalty, 20% arcane failure chance, Speed (30ft/20ft), 25lbs
Explorer’s Outfit – 10gp, 8lb


Ability Scores: 40 point buy: 13+5+6+6+10+0
Str 17 (+3) (17/base)
Dex 13 (+1) (13/base)
Con 16 (+3) (14/base 2/rac)
Int 14 (+2) (14/base)
Wis 16 (+3) (16/base)
Cha 6 (-2) (8/base -2/rac)


Saves:
Fortitude: +5 (2cle 3/ability)
Reflex: +1
Will: +7 (2/cle 2bullheaded 3/ability)


Hit Points: 13 (10/Base 3/Con)

Armor Class:
Standard : 12 (10/Base 2/dex)
Touch : 12 (10/Base 2/dex)
Flat-Footed 10 (10/base)

Damage: Warhammer – 1d8+3
INITIATIVE: +1 (1/Dex)
BASE ATTACK : +1
MELEE: +3 (3/Str)
GRAPPLE: +3 (3/Str)
RANGED: +1 (1/Dex)


Skills:
Craft-Weaponsmithing(Int): 5 = (3 + 2/int)
Craft-Know Dungeoneering(Int): 5 = (3 + 2/int)
Spellcraft(Int): 6 = (4 + 2/int)
Heal(Wis): 6 = (3 + 3/wis)
Concentrate(Con): 6 = (3 + 3/wis)


Feats:
Bullheaded: +2 bonus on all Will saves. Cannot be shaken.
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Postby Birile » Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:08 pm

Regarding skills:

Should we be listing those skills that we have ability mods in, or just the ones we have racial/size mods and/or ranks?

Lots of skills have dex/cha as their main ability so I have a LOT of skills that start out at 3 without even putting a rank in. I want to know if I should be listing these skills in my character sheet.

k thx bye
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Postby Malacar » Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:16 pm

Your armor class is wrong:
Your dex bonus is 1, not 2.
You didn't include your armor or shield bonus on the standard line.

Also, a suggestion - a light steel shield is a waste. Get a heavy steel or wooden shield. The AC bump is good (heavy is 2 ac, light is 1)

Your ac should read:

Standard: 16 (10/base, 1/dex, 4/chainshirt, 1/shield)

Also, your attacks are wrong. Your base attack bonus is +0, not +1. Your melee and ranged are correct, though.

Carrying Capacity:
Strength
Score Light Load Medium Load Heavy Load
1 3 lb. or less 4-6 lb. 7-10 lb.
2 6 lb. or less 7-13 lb. 14-20 lb.
3 10 lb. or less 11-20 lb. 21-30 lb.
4 13 lb. or less 14-26 lb. 27-40 lb.
5 16 lb. or less 17-33 lb. 34-50 lb.
6 20 lb. or less 21-40 lb. 41-60 lb.
7 23 lb. or less 24-46 lb. 47-70 lb.
8 26 lb. or less 27-53 lb. 54-80 lb.
9 30 lb. or less 31-60 lb. 61-90 lb.
10 33 lb. or less 34-66 lb. 67-100 lb.
11 38 lb. or less 39-76 lb. 77-115 lb.
12 43 lb. or less 44-86 lb. 87-130 lb.
13 50 lb. or less 51-100 lb. 101-150 lb.
14 58 lb. or less 59-116 lb. 117-175 lb.
15 66 lb. or less 67-133 lb. 134-200 lb.
16 76 lb. or less 77-153 lb. 154-230 lb.
17 86 lb. or less 87-173 lb. 174-260 lb.
18 100 lb. or less 101-200 lb. 201-300 lb.
19 116 lb. or less 117-233 lb. 234-350 lb.
20 133 lb. or less 134-266 lb. 267-400 lb.
21 153 lb. or less 154-306 lb. 307-460 lb.
22 173 lb. or less 174-346 lb. 347-520 lb.
23 200 lb. or less 201-400 lb. 401-600 lb.
24 233 lb. or less 234-466 lb. 467-700 lb.
25 266 lb. or less 267-533 lb. 534-800 lb.
26 306 lb. or less 307-613 lb. 614-920 lb.
27 346 lb. or less 347-693 lb. 694-1,040 lb.
28 400 lb. or less 401-800 lb. 801-1,200 lb.
29 466 lb. or less 467-933 lb. 934-1,400 lb.
+10 ×4 ×4 ×4
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Postby Malacar » Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:17 pm

This won't format right...

Here's the link:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm

Basically, the more weight you carry, the slower you move.
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Postby Gormal » Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:17 pm

What about my flkat-footed and touch ac?... here's updated version...


CHARACTER NAME : Koray Stoneforge
RACE: Dwarf
CLASS (LEVEL) : Cleric (1) Doman: Healing/War
NET LEVEL : 1
ALIGNMENT : NG
SIZE : Medium
SPEED : 20 ft
TYPE : Humanoid
AGE: 58 Height: 4'2” WEIGHT: 148lbs

EXPERIENCE : 0
CASH : 19gp 3sp 8cp

Equipment: 80.5lb
Backpack (empty) – 2gp, 2lb
Bedroll 1sp 5 lb.
Blanket, winter – 5sp, 3lb
Candle x5 – 5cp, 0lb
Chalk – 1cp, 0lb
Flask (empty) – 3cp 1 ½ lb
Flint and Steel – 1gp 0lb
Parchment (sheet) x5 (1gp)
Rations, trail (12 days) 3gp 10 lb.
Torch x3 – 3cp, 3lb
Waterskin – 1gp 4lb
Warhammer – 12gp, 1d8, x3critical – 5lb
Shield, Heavy Steel – 20gp, 2 bonus -2 penalty, 15% arcane failure chance, 15lbs
Chain Shirt – 100gp, 4 bonus, 4 maximum dex bonus, -2 armor check penalty, 20% arcane failure chance,
Speed (30ft/20ft), 25lbs
Explorer’s Outfit – 10gp, 8lb

Ability Scores: 40 point buy: 13+5+6+6+10+0
Str 17 (+3) (17/base)
Dex 13 (+1) (13/base)
Con 16 (+3) (14/base 2/rac)
Int 14 (+2) (14/base)
Wis 16 (+3) (16/base)
Cha 6 (-2) (8/base -2/rac)


Saves:
Fortitude: +5 (2cle 3/ability)
Reflex: +1
Will: +7 (2/cle 2bullheaded 3/ability)


HIT POINTS: 13 (10/Base 3/Con)

Armor Class:
Standard: 17 (10/base, 1/dex, 4/chainshirt, 2/shield)
Touch : 12 (10/Base 1/dex)
Flat-Footed 10 (10/base)

Damage: Warhammer – 1d8+3
INITIATIVE: +1 (1/Dex)
BASE ATTACK : +0
MELEE: +3 (3/Str)
GRAPPLE: +3 (3/Str)
RANGED: +1 (1/Dex)


Skills:
Craft-Weaponsmithing(Int): 5 = (3 + 2/int)
Craft-Know Dungeoneering(Int): 5 = (3 + 2/int)
Spellcraft(Int): 6 = (4 + 2/int)
Heal(Wis): 6 = (3 + 3/wis)
Concentrate(Con): 6 = (3 + 3/wis)


Feats:
Bullheaded: +2 bonus on all Will saves. Cannot be shaken.
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Postby Birile » Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:45 pm

Okay, here's my tentative character sheet. I've listed every skill I have points in for one reason or another, so sorry for the length. If it's not appropriate to list them all and to only list the ones I put ranks in please let me know! Please feel free to tear it apart in any other way as well.

Also, out of curiosity, how much non-combat interaction are we going to have in the campaign (or is that inappropriate to ask)? I've put a lot of points into things like Diplomacy and Sleight of Hand which are probably useless if we're just going to be fighting!

CHARACTER NAME : Birile Mightymouth
RACE: Halfling
CLASS (LEVEL) : Bard 1
NET LEVEL : 1
ALIGNMENT : N
SIZE : Small
SPEED : 20 ft
TYPE : Humanoid
AGE: 23 Height: 3'0” WEIGHT: 34lbs

EXPERIENCE : 0
CASH : 47gp 6 sp 8 cp


Equipment: 28.8lbs
Backpack (empty) – 2gp, 0.5lb
Bedroll - 1sp 1.25lb
Blanket, winter – 5sp, 0.75lb
Flint and Steel – 1gp 0lb
Rations, trail (10 days) - 5gp 1.25lb
Tent - 10gp 5lb
Torch x2 – 2cp, 0.5lb
Waterskin – 1gp 1lb
Longsword - 15gp 2lbs
Leather Armor - 10gp 7.5lb
Entertainer’s Outfit – 3gp 1lb
Thieves' Tools - 30gp 1lb


Ability Scores: 40 point buy: 6+6+10+6+2+10
Str 12 (+1) (14/base -2/race)
Dex 16 (+3) (14/base 2/race)
Con 16 (+3) (16/base)
Int 14 (+2) (14/base)
Wis 10 (+0) (10/base)
Cha 16 (+3) (16/base)


Saves:
Fortitude: +4 (3/con 1/race)
Reflex: +6 (2/base 3/dex 1/race)
Will: +3 (2/base 1/race) [+2 morale bonus vs. fear]


Hit Points: 9 (6/Base 3/Con)

Armor Class:
Standard : 16 (10/Base 2/armor 3/dex 1/size)
Touch : 14 (10/Base 3/dex 1/size)
Flat-Footed 13 (10/base 2/armor 1/size)

Damage: Shortbow 1d4 + 1/str; Longsword 1d6 +1/str
INITIATIVE: +7 (3/dex 4/Improved Initiative)
BASE ATTACK : 0
MELEE: +2 (1/str 1/size)
GRAPPLE: -3 (1/str -4/size)
RANGED: +4 (3/dex 1/size)


Skills:
Appraise: 2 (2/int)
Balance: 3 (3/dex)
Bluff: 5 (2/rank 3/cha)
Climb: 3 (1/str 2/race)
Concentration: 7 (4/rank 3/con)
Decipher Script: 3 (1/rank 2/int)
Diplomacy: 5 (2/rank 3/cha)
Disable Device: 2 (2/int)
Disguise: 4 (1/rank 3/cha)
Escape Artist: 4 (1/rank 3/dex)
Forgery: 2 (2/int)
Gather Information: 3 (3/cha)
Hide: 11 (4/rank 3/dex 4/size)
Intimidate: 3 (3/cha)
Jump: 3 (1/str 2/race)
Listen: 3 (1/rank 2/race)
Move Silently: 9 (4/rank 3/dex 2/race)
Open Lock: 4 (1/rank [cost 2 pts, cross-class] 3/dex)
Perform (sing): 7 (4/rank 3/cha)
Ride: 3 (3/dex)
Search: 2 (2/int)
Sleight of Hand: 5 (2/rank 3/dex)
Swim: 1 (1/str)
Tumble: 6 (3/rank 3/dex)
Use Magic Device: 4 (1/rank 3/cha)
Use Rope: 3 (3/dex)


Feats:
Improved Initiative - +4 to Initiative

Bard Abilities:
Bardic Knowledge: Bonus 3 (1/lvl 2/int)
Countersong
Fascinate
Inspire Courage +1
Last edited by Birile on Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Malacar » Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:06 pm

For jake:

Flat-footed: 16 (4/chainshirt, 2/heavyshield)
Touch: 11 (1/dex)
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Postby Birile » Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:10 pm

Can Bardic Knowledge give me the same information as Gather Information can?

Can Bardic Knowledge give me the same information that Identify, Analyze Dweomer and other identification spells can provide?

I am trying to decide whether it's worth putting ranks into Gather Information and whether it's worth learning identification spells from the bard spell list.

Thanks!
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:35 am

I made the Monk LN instead of LE for those that care. Thought it might fit in better.
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Postby moritheil » Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:44 pm

Birile wrote:Can Bardic Knowledge give me the same information as Gather Information can?

Can Bardic Knowledge give me the same information that Identify, Analyze Dweomer and other identification spells can provide?

I am trying to decide whether it's worth putting ranks into Gather Information and whether it's worth learning identification spells from the bard spell list.

Thanks!


Bardic Knowledge is more generalized (i.e. rumors and legends from all over rather than rumors of that city.) It can give you some of the same information as Identify or Legend Lore, but only if you get lucky. It's not as reliable in the sense that if you need to know some exact detail, you're not likely to get it with Bardic Knowledge. It is, however, free, and useful whenever you just want to get a general sense of something.

Gormal - Clerics don't have 1 BAB at 1st level; they have 0, unless your racial sub level does something to that.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

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Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
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Postby moritheil » Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:46 pm

Birile wrote:Regarding my Str--are you saying you would go lower or higher? I can't tell what you're trying to tell me LOL.

Regarding my Wis--I had a reason for it, but I can't recall now what that reason was (though I kinda like my Will saves).

I'm always open for suggestions, otherwise I wouldn't have asked!


I'd take points out of Str and Wis and pump Cha even higher, and possibly Dex or Int. That is, however, a min-maxing approach that is done in light of the fact that you will be filling a mage's shoes, and as a result of this approach you will suffer in melee from not having a Str bonus at low levels. My reasoning is that a 12 Str, while helpful at low levels, is not going to be worth mentioning at higher levels where monsters regularly have 34 Strength. You're still going to be screwed in a grapple.

I personally would have taken Precocious Apprentice at 1 and taken Improved Init a little later if you plan to be pure bard, but again that is simply emphasizing the caster and the ridiculous utility of that feat.

If you want to emphasize the music part of the bard, Artist is a good FR feat that gives an additional 3 music uses per day at level 1, and a bonus to perform. Obviously, you'd have to hold off getting Improved Initiative, but if you pumped Dex up at the cost of Str/Wis your Initiative ought to be good enough to usually go before the party.

EDIT: I just checked Crystalkeep, and according to it, Halflings can't take Artist. I'm not sure if that's a mistake, but it looks legitimate. They can, however, take Discipline, which gives a nice +2 to Will saves and +2 to concentration, and makes up somewhat for lowering Wis from 14 to 10. (It would keep those nice saves you like, but the problem is that you would no longer have that +2 Wis to Sense Motive. However, as levels progress, Skills become more important than ability modifiers for skill checks. By mid levels it will no longer make much of a difference.)

Of course, you could go in a different direction entirely. Militia, for example, would give you proficiency with all martial weapons, which bards do not naturally get. You could take Fearless and be immune to fear. You could even take Mercantile Background and get a big discount on purchases now and then, plus start with 300 extra gp.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:21 am

Mori... I know this is asking a lot, but if you get a chance can you make a thread with your links to resources in one main post? It would help immensely, and I know I would appreciate it tons.
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Postby moritheil » Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:08 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Mori... I know this is asking a lot, but if you get a chance can you make a thread with your links to resources in one main post? It would help immensely, and I know I would appreciate it tons.


Another spot-on suggestion. I see that Shev has beat me to it. :D
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
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Postby Yasden » Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:39 am

Last edited by Yasden on Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby moritheil » Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:20 pm

I would lower wis, cha, and/or dex and pump Con. I prefer to play high Con mages to offset the horrible HD, and with 40-point-buy, you can afford to have something like 16 Con and 18 Int.

If you take Combat Casting, you're not going to be aiming for the abbreviated build we discussed - which is fine by me, but I don't know what you intend.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

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