Errants of Waterdeep [OOC Thread]

Discussion concerning the upcoming Toril 2.0 update as well as general 3.5 edition D&D discussion
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Postby Birile » Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:58 pm

Before we can interrogate Seret we still need to heal him a little more, no? He's unconscious from still being in the negatives, if I'm not mistaken!
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Postby Gormal » Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:09 pm

I only have crappy heal spells left right now, but I have the skill heal too!\

I guess I can take 10 on first aid and give him a heal.
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Postby moritheil » Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:39 pm

Well, I was thinking you could either wait it out or drag him along, but using more healing power works too!

FWIW people always stabilize when healed in the negative range, even if they aren't conscious yet. Even cure minor wounds (which heals 1 hp) has the power to prevent someone from deteriorating and dying.
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Postby Gormal » Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:44 pm

My first aid only has to beat a DC of 15, and I can take 10 on it, and the 6 bonus from taking ranks and wisdom means I can always succeed I think. So I can always stabilize someone.
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Postby moritheil » Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:51 pm

Also true. I mention Cure Minor Wounds because its entire point is to stabilize someone in mid-combat, and without that property of curative magic, the spell is almost worthless.
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Postby moritheil » Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:01 am

Quick note about the current conversation: Diplomacy normally takes a minute to use, but IC time isn't really a factor here, so I went ahead and applied the result instantly. It was good enough to make the man a little more talkative than normal, but not vastly so.
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Postby Birile » Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:24 am

I have no clue how to convince him we're not spies, so if anyone has any ideas...
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Postby moritheil » Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:04 am

Well, it's okay to move along and wait for more exposition later, too. :wink:
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Postby Yasden » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:41 am

Alright, modified my stuff. Question though: Does the DC drop on saving throws for my spells since I've leveled? Let me know if I did anything wrong.

I couldn't find any exp tables on the d20 site to put exactly how much xp I had, either.

Mori, I noticed on the Cerebremancer page that I needed 6 ranks in Knowledge: Psionics. It wasn't on that template, so I added it, and swapped my original 4 ranks in Knowledge: The Planes, for it.

If I'm not allowed to do that, let me know. I wasn't sure if that Knowledge aspect was accessible for anyone at 1st level, or if you already had to be a psionicist.
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:11 pm

The d20 site doesn't have XP tables, because those are covered under tighter copyright for some reason. To go up a level, you need (current level * 1000) more experience points. If you're level 1, you need 1000 to advance. If you're level 2, you need +2000 to advance (3000 total). If you're level 3, you need +3000 (6000 total).

Your spell DC doesn't automatically change as you advance in levels. The DC of the saving throw to resist your spells is always 10 + spell level + caster stat bonus. Therefore, your higher level spells are harder to resist than lower ones, and all of your spells get harder to resist as your primary casting stat increases. However, there's no change for simply advancing in level.
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Postby moritheil » Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:52 pm

Yasden wrote:Alright, modified my stuff. Question though: Does the DC drop on saving throws for my spells since I've leveled? Let me know if I did anything wrong.


No. DC is independent of level. You might take feats to increase your DC, and you do get more feats with increased levels, but wizard spell DC is not in any way directly dependent on level.

I couldn't find any exp tables on the d20 site to put exactly how much xp I had, either.


As Ragorn pointed out, WOTC tends to come down hard on any site offering the full kit needed to do 3.5. Thus usually sites omit XP/GP tables. Incidentally, every class requires the exact same amount of XP to go up a level - they got rid of the differing XP tables of 2.0.

Mori, I noticed on the Cerebremancer page that I needed 6 ranks in Knowledge: Psionics. It wasn't on that template, so I added it, and swapped my original 4 ranks in Knowledge: The Planes, for it.

If I'm not allowed to do that, let me know. I wasn't sure if that Knowledge aspect was accessible for anyone at 1st level, or if you already had to be a psionicist.


It's fine. Wizards get all knowledges as in-class skills. Know (psionics) just isn't listed under the standard rules because not all campaigns have psionics.

The Knowledge skills are always useful; they're just arguably more useful if you have the accompanying ability. For example, even if you aren't a mage, Know (arcana) is quite handy if you want to puzzle out what a permanent spell does, figure out if a magical beast has a breath weapon, or go up against a mage and have some idea of his power level. Spellcraft is actually very handy for figuring out what a caster is trying to do, even for noncasters.
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Postby moritheil » Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:10 pm

Need an intimidate check for Tasan, btw. RP is excellent and I am and have been giving out bonus XP for it, but the point of social skills is to ensure that people don't dump Charisma as a stat with impunity. :)
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Postby Tasan » Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:07 am

moritheil wrote:Need an intimidate check for Tasan, btw. RP is excellent and I am and have been giving out bonus XP for it, but the point of social skills is to ensure that people don't dump Charisma as a stat with impunity. :)


Laugh, I knew a skill check applied, just wasn't sure which one. Shouldn't I get a circumstance bonus anyhow :).
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Postby moritheil » Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:30 am

For having him tied up and for being armed? Sure, I'll tack a bonus on.
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Postby Tasan » Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:32 am

Yeah, armed with a red-hot poker! Woop! :p

Charisma is a tough stat to define IMO. Crazy bastard shithead Hitler had negative Charisma, but he still got his way...
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Postby moritheil » Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:44 am

Tasan wrote:Yeah, armed with a red-hot poker! Woop! :p

Charisma is a tough stat to define IMO.


Charisma is "force of personality." If someone gets their way all the time, they're either using magic or they are really good at some charisma-based skills.
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Postby Tasan » Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:49 am

Is propaganda like magic? :)
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:26 am

Tasan wrote:YCharisma is a tough stat to define IMO. Crazy bastard shithead Hitler had negative Charisma, but he still got his way...

No, crazy bastard shithead Hitler had about a 30 charisma.

Charisma isn't a measure of how much people like you. It isn't a measure of your physical attractiveness, or your ability to speak eloquently (although these are all factors in determining the score). It is, as Mori suggested, your "force of personality." It's a measure of how much impact you have on those you interact with. Hitler, crazy bastard shithead he was, motivated an entire country to stand behind a completely insane idea. That took a ridiculous amount of Charisma.

People often ask why Intimidate is a Cha skill and not Strength. To that end, think of characters like Hannibal Lecter. Hannibal was intimidating as fuck, and not because he was physically threatening. While a high Strength score (or a large body frame) might be useful for Intimidation, much more effective is the ability to calmly put the fear of god into the person you're dealing with.

Mori:
If you read the FAQ, the first couple questions describe the content missing from the SRD. Specifically, the XP tables, the actual process for character creation, and a short list of monsters that are presumably copyrighted to other sources.
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Postby Tasan » Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:51 am

Ragorn wrote:It's a measure of how much impact you have on those you interact with.


Right, I totally understand and agree with that. On the other hand, if you are bound, critically injured(if only stable) and someone is waving a hot implement of death in front of you, I don't think anyone who isn't CE is going to withstand an intimidate check there. It's not about strength, but the situation. I wouldn't question the charisma aspect of it so much as the circumstances. I'd be pretty much ready to spill everything were I in the same situation.
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:00 pm

Tasan wrote:On the other hand, if you are bound, critically injured(if only stable) and someone is waving a hot implement of death in front of you, I don't think anyone who isn't CE is going to withstand an intimidate check there. It's not about strength, but the situation. I wouldn't question the charisma aspect of it so much as the circumstances. I'd be pretty much ready to spill everything were I in the same situation.

I'd give you a circumstance bonus to your Intimidate check, but depending on your character's Charisma and how many ranks you have in Intimidate, you could still easily fail.

So you're wounded but stable, and you're tied up, and Mary Kate Olsen is waving something at you and yelling a lot. Are you ready to turn over the keys to the castle? Or are you nodding your head while you silently look around for something to crack her over the head with? If you flub your Intimidate roll, the person you're trying to bully simply doesn't perceive you to be much of a threat.
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Postby Birile » Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:32 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Tasan wrote:On the other hand, if you are bound, critically injured(if only stable) and someone is waving a hot implement of death in front of you, I don't think anyone who isn't CE is going to withstand an intimidate check there. It's not about strength, but the situation. I wouldn't question the charisma aspect of it so much as the circumstances. I'd be pretty much ready to spill everything were I in the same situation.

I'd give you a circumstance bonus to your Intimidate check, but depending on your character's Charisma and how many ranks you have in Intimidate, you could still easily fail.

So you're wounded but stable, and you're tied up, and Mary Kate Olsen is waving something at you and yelling a lot. Are you ready to turn over the keys to the castle? Or are you nodding your head while you silently look around for something to crack her over the head with? If you flub your Intimidate roll, the person you're trying to bully simply doesn't perceive you to be much of a threat.


Add to that the person's resolve--for instance, Seret seems to be rather steadfast in his determination. There are a lot of people who are more than willing to die rather than "give in". *shrug*
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:52 pm

Birile wrote:Add to that the person's resolve--for instance, Seret seems to be rather steadfast in his determination. There are a lot of people who are more than willing to die rather than "give in". *shrug*

Unlike most skills, Intimidate checks are not simply opposed skill checks. The intimidator makes and Intimidate check, and the person being intimidated rolls 1d20 + level + Wis. That represents their resolve, as a higher-level character would be inherently more resistant to this form of persuasion.
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Postby moritheil » Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:28 pm

Just a note - I intend to wait until everyone has said they are moving (and described their preparations for the road, if applicable) to detail the scenery further down the trail.
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Postby moritheil » Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:14 am

I'm quoting Yasden because the Mystic Theurge and similar classes are often sources of confusion, and he asked a very good question about a "theurge" type class.

Yasden wrote:Ok, so I've already decided I ultimately want to pursue the path of cerebremancer. Does any part of the psion skill set or usage benefit being a cerebremancer or is it fine to just to ahead and skip it? I saw that a cerebremancer is PrC, but the only requirements were ranks of 6 in Arcana and Psionics.


Cerebremancer is essentially a modified version of the Mystic Theurge. The basic idea is that a Wiz 3/Clr 3 can cast 2nd level arcane and divine spells and thereby qualify for a prestige class that advances both arcane and divine magic. The cerebremancer isn't about divine magic; it advances arcane casting and psionics. The parallels are obvious.

There is a build I call the fast-MT build. If your DM allows Precocious Apprentice to qualify you for the ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells, you only need 1 level in Wizard (or Sorc) to qualify for the arcane side of a theurgic build. The other half has to be obtained normally.

So in your case, you'd get into cerebremancer the fastest at level 5: wiz 1, psion 3, cerebremancer. Normally it would be level 7 (after three levels of wiz and three levels of cleric.)

To answer the question directly, what you want to ask yourself is: What is the point of being a Cerebremancer? The point is to advance both arcane casting and psionics at the same time. Theurge classes such as the Cerebremancer only advance casting and psionics, meaning you must already have casting and psionics. That point is further underlined in the entry requirements "Able to manifest 2nd-level powers" and "Able to cast 2nd-level arcane spells."
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Postby Birile » Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:00 am

moritheil wrote:I'm quoting Yasden because the Mystic Theurge and similar classes are often sources of confusion, and he asked a very good question about a "theurge" type class.

Yasden wrote:Ok, so I've already decided I ultimately want to pursue the path of cerebremancer. Does any part of the psion skill set or usage benefit being a cerebremancer or is it fine to just to ahead and skip it? I saw that a cerebremancer is PrC, but the only requirements were ranks of 6 in Arcana and Psionics.


Cerebremancer is essentially a modified version of the Mystic Theurge. The basic idea is that a Wiz 3/Clr 3 can cast 2nd level arcane and divine spells and thereby qualify for a prestige class that advances both arcane and divine magic. The cerebremancer isn't about divine magic; it advances arcane casting and psionics. The parallels are obvious.

There is a build I call the fast-MT build. If your DM allows Precocious Apprentice to qualify you for the ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells, you only need 1 level in Wizard (or Sorc) to qualify for the arcane side of a theurgic build. The other half has to be obtained normally.

So in your case, you'd get into cerebremancer the fastest at level 5: wiz 1, psion 3, cerebremancer. Normally it would be level 7 (after three levels of wiz and three levels of cleric.)

To answer the question directly, what you want to ask yourself is: What is the point of being a Cerebremancer? The point is to advance both arcane casting and psionics at the same time. Theurge classes such as the Cerebremancer only advance casting and psionics, meaning you must already have casting and psionics. That point is further underlined in the entry requirements "Able to manifest 2nd-level powers" and "Able to cast 2nd-level arcane spells."


Feh, I'm offended by your lack of discussion of the Fochlucan Lyrist! (j/k)
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Postby Ragorn » Sat Jan 13, 2007 7:58 am

moritheil wrote:If your DM allows Precocious Apprentice to qualify you for the ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells, you only need 1 level in Wizard (or Sorc) to qualify for the arcane side of a theurgic build. The other half has to be obtained normally.

I do not allow that. The tradeoff of the Theurge-style class is increased versatility for decreased depth. Yeah, you're casting off two full spell lists, and that gives you tremendous breadth when considering your options. But your caster level is also 3 levels "behind the curve"... and more importantly, so is your list of known spells. An 11th level Mystic Theurge (3 Wiz / 3 Cle / 5 Theurge) is casting Fireball when everyone else has Disintegrate. You gain options - you lose power.

Allowing Precocious Apprentice to bypass the 3 level requirement essentially nullfies the main balancing factor of the class. If you can get into Mystic Theurge with only a one-level dip into Wizard... why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't every Cleric in the land dip 1 Wiz and get access to both spell lists?

Feh, I'm offended by your lack of discussion of the Fochlucan Lyrist! (j/k)

We actually have one of those in the epic game I'm playing =/
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Postby Birile » Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:35 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Feh, I'm offended by your lack of discussion of the Fochlucan Lyrist! (j/k)

We actually have one of those in the epic game I'm playing =/


I came across some really twinky uses for Fochlucan Lyrist in my preparations for Mori's campaign. But I think some of the rules were a little shaky and most DM's probably wouldn't allow the builds I found. But if they did... *blink*
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Postby moritheil » Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:28 pm

Ragorn wrote:I do not allow that. The tradeoff of the Theurge-style class is increased versatility for decreased depth. Yeah, you're casting off two full spell lists, and that gives you tremendous breadth when considering your options. But your caster level is also 3 levels "behind the curve"... and more importantly, so is your list of known spells. An 11th level Mystic Theurge (3 Wiz / 3 Cle / 5 Theurge) is casting Fireball when everyone else has Disintegrate. You gain options - you lose power.

Allowing Precocious Apprentice to bypass the 3 level requirement essentially nullfies the main balancing factor of the class. If you can get into Mystic Theurge with only a one-level dip into Wizard... why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't every Cleric in the land dip 1 Wiz and get access to both spell lists?

Feh, I'm offended by your lack of discussion of the Fochlucan Lyrist! (j/k)

We actually have one of those in the epic game I'm playing =/


A few things to note...

First, I don't consider balance when I consider legality. They are two separate issues. I consider balance after I consider legality. The legality itself is a little questionable, which is why I'm careful to note that many DMs do not allow this build.

Second, to address your balance concern, it's somewhat misleading to compare prestige classes to normal classes in terms of balance. Prestige classes ought to be compared to other prestige classes. Going into MT nerfs your hps and BAB. You will never be the effective front-liner that most Clerics are. Furthermore, unless you happen to go Sorc/Favored Soul, you have to juggle more than one casting stat, a situation gamers refer to as MAD (multiple ability dependence.)

Furthermore, in order to take Prec App, you MUST take your arcane caster level at level 1, and sorc or wizard is hands down the worst level to take at 1. You get the minimum hit points and the minimum skill points.

I'm not sure I agree with your line of questioning ("Why wouldn't every cleric dip 1 wiz?") Clerics are already awesome, as are psions. MT still offers flexibility at the cost of power.
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:43 am

moritheil wrote:First, I don't consider balance when I consider legality. They are two separate issues. I consider balance after I consider legality. The legality itself is a little questionable, which is why I'm careful to note that many DMs do not allow this build.


Well, the PrC requires you to be able to "cast 2nd level spells" (in plural form). It takes some word bending to apply Precocious Apprentice to this requirement. It's up to the DM, but even balance reasons aside, I look at that as kind of a sketchy application of the rules. Along the same lines, a Cleric of the Fire Domain gets Burning Hands as his first level domain spell... but that doesn't mean he can "cast Arcane spells." The case could be made here, also, that Burning Hands is an Arcane spell and thus the Cleric can cast a spell that is "Arcane." But again, word bending, and something I wouldn't allow.

Second, to address your balance concern, it's somewhat misleading to compare prestige classes to normal classes in terms of balance.


I don't necessarily agree. Characters with Prestige Classes must adventure alongside base classes... the fact that you get to take a PrC shouldn't stand you head and shoulders above the rest of the party. PrCs should offer a few nice benefits, but any class that offers significant power should also present large drawbacks. This is part of the reason why spellcasting PrCs deny Wizards their bonus feats and familiar progression... the bonus powers of the PrC come with the loss of some class features. Many PrCs use their requirements as balancing mechanics... many require "burn feats" you wouldn't normally take, like Endurance or Lightning Reflexes. Others require specific domains, or ranks in skills, or odd spell restrictions (you must be able to cast seven Illusion spells).

(I know you know this already, but this is for others as well :D)

So from a balance standpoint, allowing a character to use Precocious Apprentice to partially bypass the level requirement is overly powerful. The addition of the second spell list is balanced by the fact that both classes are essentially 3 casters levels behind the normal curve. You can cast a TON of spells, but they won't be as powerful as they would if you didn't PrC, and it takes you longer to get the spells at the top end of the list.

Furthermore, in order to take Prec App, you MUST take your arcane caster level at level 1, and sorc or wizard is hands down the worst level to take at 1. You get the minimum hit points and the minimum skill points.


Yes, that's true. You would lose 4 hit points by taking your Arcane level first... but you only have to take ONE level of d4 Wizard as opposed to 3, so your hit points would be the same in the end either way. Clerics get the same number of skill points that Wizards do, so that's not really a concern.

So it's up to DM discretion, but if I were allowed to use PA as a way to get into Mystic Theurge early, I would do it in a heartbeat :)
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Postby Birile » Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:14 pm

I still can't seem to access Invisible Castle from my home computer, it still doesn't load for me. It's got to be my version of IE 7.0, can't think of anything else since I've updated Java and Shockwave, etc.

So... would someone mind proxying my rolls? I don't care which one of you does it, just post 'em here for Mori.

Initiative for Birile is 1d20+7
Listen for Birile is 1d20+3

Otherwise, I'll make my rolls tomorrow morning from work.

TYVM!

Edit: Arilin, did you add Thalidyrr's dexterity mod to his Initiative roll? If not, looks like you get a +3 to that awesome roll you've got!
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Postby Birile » Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:57 pm

Thanks, A :)
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Postby Birile » Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:42 pm

Gormal, Koray's Wis mod is +3, you add that to Listen! (fwiw)
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Postby Birile » Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:15 pm

Your turn, Mori *nudge* :D
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Postby moritheil » Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:20 pm

Ragorn wrote:Well, the PrC requires you to be able to "cast 2nd level spells" (in plural form). It takes some word bending to apply Precocious Apprentice to this requirement. It's up to the DM, but even balance reasons aside, I look at that as kind of a sketchy application of the rules.


As I said, fair enough. I should point out that depending on how strict you are about "spells" being plural, 4th-level sorcerers don't qualify either (they only know 1 2nd-level spell), meaning sorcs are totally hosed for that PrC. Not many DMs I encounter would demand that someone take 5 levels of sorc before entering. It's all a question of where you draw the line.

Along the same lines, a Cleric of the Fire Domain gets Burning Hands as his first level domain spell... but that doesn't mean he can "cast Arcane spells." The case could be made here, also, that Burning Hands is an Arcane spell and thus the Cleric can cast a spell that is "Arcane." But again, word bending, and something I wouldn't allow.


No, burning hands from the fire domain is still cast as a divine spell. However, IIRC, Anyspell does allow you to prepare spells as arcane spells, and there was a big controversy over clerics using that to qualify for arcane PrCs a while back.

PrCs should offer a few nice benefits, but any class that offers significant power should also present large drawbacks.


In theory, sure. Do they? Not always. I only really consider balance against what is practically possible, not what is ideal. There are many PrCs that are only as good as existing base classes. They don't see as much use as those that are clearly better than base classes. Just as I would not consider only Toughness or other weak feats when balancing a new Feat, I do not consider only weaker PrCs when talking about balance. The strongest PrCs are those that see the most use - Incantatrix, Loremaster, IoSV, Fatespinner, Fist of Raziel - and those are the ones that should recieve the most consideration.

So from a balance standpoint, allowing a character to use Precocious Apprentice to partially bypass the level requirement is overly powerful. The addition of the second spell list is balanced by the fact that both classes are essentially 3 casters levels behind the normal curve. You can cast a TON of spells, but they won't be as powerful as they would if you didn't PrC, and it takes you longer to get the spells at the top end of the list.


What level are you making the comparison at? Allowing PrecApp makes for earlier entry into the MT, but it doesn't in any way extend the MT levels. You still only get 10 levels of MT, max, pre-epic. You still won't ever get the high-level spells in both of your casting classes, though you can go back and take base class levels or another PrC to almost max out your casting in one class. If you go into MT with Wiz 1 and never ever take another level of Wiz, you're casting as an 11th Wiz at 20th level. That's not exactly overwhelming.

I see allowing PrecApp as allowing the MT to be viable at lower levels. If you don't allow it, MT builds lag behind pure casters until about 9th level. And for overall pre-epic balance, it makes little difference in the long run (provided you aren't playing with the houserule that the MT can keep taking levels past MT 10. Now that would be broken.)
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:12 pm

moritheil wrote:The strongest PrCs are those that see the most use - Incantatrix, Loremaster, IoSV, Fatespinner, Fist of Raziel - and those are the ones that should recieve the most consideration.

Many of the 'strongest' PrCs are the ones that allow you to continue with your normal class progression while also reaping the benefits of the PrCs. A lot of DMs (myself included) ban the Radiant Servant of Pelor. If I didn't, there'd be one in every campaign, since the RSoP gets to KEEP his full turning progression while still enjoying all the benefits of the prestige class.

What level are you making the comparison at? Allowing PrecApp makes for earlier entry into the MT, but it doesn't in any way extend the MT levels. You still only get 10 levels of MT, max, pre-epic. You still won't ever get the high-level spells in both of your casting classes, though you can go back and take base class levels or another PrC to almost max out your casting in one class. If you go into MT with Wiz 1 and never ever take another level of Wiz, you're casting as an 11th Wiz at 20th level. That's not exactly overwhelming.

By taking PA, there's really no difference in power at levels 1-4, and only a minor difference at 5.

At levels 6-14, you are two Cleric levels ahead of the non-PA Theurge. At level 9, for example, you are Wiz 6 / Cle 8, while the non-PA Theurge would be Wiz 6 / Cle 6. So for a good eight level stretch, you are essentially two full levels ahead of the intended power curve. Most campaigns tend to span this level range, so this is kind of important.

Post-14th level, it doesn't matter as much, but there's still a difference. I assume you'd take a divine PrC from 15-20. At 20, you end up as a Wiz 11 / Cle 19, with six levels of progression in your second PrC. The "normal" Theurge is a Wiz 13 / Cle 17 with four levels of progression. I firmly believe that the Precocious Theurge is still more powerful... two extra Mass Heals a day, Cleric CL 19, and two bonus levels of PrC progression all make up for the loss of 7th level Wizard spells.

So to wrap up this RagornPost(tm) on the Theurge, I think from levels 6-14 the Precocious Theurge is powerful to the point of being broken. From 14-20, less so, but still significantly better than the standard Theurge at the cost of only one feat. I think the benefit far outweighs what the developers intended when they wrote the Precocious Apprentice feat, and I think that this variation breaks the spirit, letter, and balance intended in the rules.
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Postby moritheil » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:29 pm

Well, the Precocious App-qualified MT can certainly be better than the standard MT. That has never been in doubt. The question is if it does something so utterly broken as to make the game unplayable, or if it makes a relatively minor difference. I rule that the increase in power makes a minor difference.

This comes down to style of play. I would never ban something like RSP (also known as Cleric Plus, because you give up virtually nothing and gain lots of power.) Yes, it is more powerful than a standard cleric. But it's from a splatbook and it is an official prestige class. Every time you add a splatbook, you get more options, and so of course your characters are going to be more powerful. I don't think we need to restrict player power.

Furthermore, you readily admit that many PrCs are like that:

Many of the 'strongest' PrCs are the ones that allow you to continue with your normal class progression while also reaping the benefits of the PrCs.


Rather than banning willy-nilly, I think the right thing to do is just acknowledge that that is where the power curve lies.
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Postby Tasan » Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:52 pm

I'm confused...

Why don't Seret and Dwylt get initiative rolls? Both are still capable of acting even if not capable of attacking...

Explain?
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Postby moritheil » Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:59 am

They do, but you guys don't actually know how fast they are to react. Technically you shouldn't know when the wolf acts, either. :P
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Postby Tasan » Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:22 am

That's a tad confusing... I can understand if we were able to communicate in real time, but we need to be able to make decisions based on information given possibly hours earlier. Oh well.
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Postby moritheil » Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:44 pm

For the purposes of smooth gameplay, I probably should have put them in the initiative list. At any rate, I believe we are still in the player phase.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:34 am

So, how do combat reflexes work exactly?
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:11 pm

Normally, you are only allowed one attack of opportunity per round. Once you take your AOO, you must wait until the end of your next action to be able to take another one.

With Combat Reflexes, you can take one AOO per round per point of Dexterity modifier you have. So if you have 16 (+3) Dex, you can take 3 AOOs between actions.
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Postby moritheil » Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:02 pm

Ragorn summed it up pretty well. I'm going to point out a couple of details:

If you are flat-footed, you cannot make AOOs unless you have that feat.

Combat Reflexes does not enable you to make more than one AOO for the same provocation. You may make one attack per AOO provoked, not a full attack or an attack with each weapon you wield. Just one. (Just clarifying in case anyone didn't realize that.)

Finally, you can always elect not to make an AOO if for some reason you don't want to.
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Postby Tasan » Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:36 am

Gormal wrote:Koray swings his hammer at the attacking wolf, letting the momentum from the swim roll him to his right and out from beneath the beast.


How did Koray manage to find water? :p
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Postby Gormal » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:57 am

haha my bad
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Postby moritheil » Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:22 pm

Mechanically, is Koray doing an attack action and a move to get away from the wolf? If so, moving away would provoke an AOO just as standing up would. I don't think you can adjust position ("5' step") while prone, since:

SRD wrote:You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.
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Postby Birile » Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:52 pm

Mori, did the wolves provoke AOO's when they attacked the dorfs and Birile? If so, who can take advantage of that at this point in time? Oh, and do AOO's only provoke melee attacks, or can spells and the such be used, too?
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Postby moritheil » Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:00 pm

Sorry. 3.5 wolves have a special attack wherein they get to trip you if they land a bite on you. I should probably have noted that in the RP thread.

You cannot use ranged attacks or spells to make AOOs unless you are a Peerless Archer (and thus threaten with ranged weapons) or have a special feat that allows you to AOO with a spell. You can only AOO if you threaten the space that the enemy is in when provoking the AOO. (So an unarmed human who is not a monk cannot do anything to prevent you from, say, grappling or sundering even if you don't have the feats that remove the AOO.)
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Postby Tasan » Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:22 am

So why is it taking 3-4 days for people to respond suddenly? I mean... am I the only one who can take 5 minutes out of my day to post something? Was kinda hoping to get somewhere in the campaign before 2.0 came out ya know :p
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:35 am

I have an excuse. I've been really sick, and just in the last day actually started to even look at this again :P I'll post today.
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