Toril 2.0: Q&A

Discussion concerning the upcoming Toril 2.0 update as well as general 3.5 edition D&D discussion
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Toril 2.0: Q&A

Postby Shevarash » Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:18 pm

This thread is just what the title says - a place to ask specific questions about 2.0. I'll do my best to answer as promptly as possible, and feel free to ask about anything. I will not respond to questions about release dates or information that is obviously not ready to be released yet (eg, list of new classes, complete spell lists, etc.)

So lets hear it - what are you curious about? What reservations do you have?
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:29 pm

Can you tell us anything about rangers in the new system?
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Postby Birile » Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:30 pm

Sarvis wrote:Can you tell us anything about rangers in the new system?


I didn't see that coming at all...
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Postby Birile » Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:35 pm

Shev--

1. My take on some of the aspects of the new spell system is that casters will be typing a LOT, between getting spells ready, charging them, releasing them, etc... is this just my own perception? Has this been play-tested? Is there ease of functionality? Seems to me it's difficult to always see if a touch spell actually lands and what-not (especially in spammy battles), so people would have to be careful to either charge/cast another spell, or keep trying to touch with the spell that's still possibly charged. Also, are clerics and others who cast helpful touch spells going to have to contend with an ally's wondrous AC when trying to help them via touch?

2. What is the overall balance between melee v. magic? Has playtesting shown it to be closer to balanced than the current system?

3. Will Urogalan be an available deity for my up and coming Halfling cleric? If not... boooooo.
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Postby Shevarash » Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:16 pm

Sarvis wrote:Can you tell us anything about rangers in the new system?


Sure, I can tell you a little. Rangers in 2.0 are similar to those in D&D v3.5, with some added improvements. First things first - Rangers are a hybrid fighter and divine spellcaster class.

One of their class abilities is the choice to pick a combat style at low level, being either Ranged or Two-Weapon. That choice will then dictate the bonus feats that the ranger receives as they level up. For instance, if you take the Ranged style, you instantly receive Point Blank Shot as a free bonus feat, and will receive Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and more feats as you progress in levels. Alternately, if you picked the Two-Weapon combat style you would receive Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense, etc as you level up. This class feature allows the ranger to receive feats in their chosen specialty without using a precious feat slot, and in some cases offers the feat earlier than it would otherwise be available.

Rangers are also very skilled characters in relation to most other melee classes, but as I haven't really gotten into the new skill system I'll save that for later. Suffice it to say that a ranger would be a good bet if you need to be stealthy outdoors, among other things.

The spell list for Rangers has been completely revamped, starting with selections from the D&D v3.5 ranger spell list, and building on that by adding several unique ranger spells. I believe that a ranger's spellcasting is an integral part of the class, and should not be overlooked or left to play second fiddle to their combat abilities.

So there's a very high level overview. There are a ton of details and some other class features to go into later.

One last thing - Rangers are no longer alignment dependant. That is, a ranger can be any alignment...
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Postby Tasan » Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:30 pm

Have the old mob races been rewritten(or in the works) so that they reflect immunities and vulnerabilities that are more consistant with 3.5?

Will there be spells such as Finger of Death, Flesh to Stone and Disintegrate? Will those spells still allow for instant death? How often are we going to have to deal with such things?

Will silence go back to radius format v. person?

Will there be front/back ranks or similar mitigation for spellcasters/melee types during large scale battles?

Will we have to wait as long as Menzo took? :D

Btw, dibs on the first chaotic evil ranger!
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Postby Shevarash » Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:46 pm

Birile -

Spellcasting Interface and Touch Spells

1. I can see how you would draw the conclusion that the new magic system will result in more typing and a difficult to use interface, but fortunately its just not the case. Although there is a lot going on under the hood in this system, from an interface perspective things aren't all that different. The process of preparing spells is nearly identical, except you no longer have to worry about meditate. There are of course, many more options to choose when preparing your spells in the shape of more spells overall, and possible metamagic combinations. I don't think this makes it unwieldy though, it actually makes things a lot more interesting. I foresee most casters having standard sets of spells that they prepare, and swapping things out as needed - so pretty much just like now.

As for touch spells, there really isn't anything to them. You cast a touch spell just like any other spell. If you're in combat OR specify a target, it immediately attempts to discharge the spell without you having to do
anything special. If you're not in combat or don't specify a target, the spell just charges. You can see what spells you're holding at any time with a simple command. Sure, you might not notice whether your spell went off all the time in a massive fight, but that applies to anything done in combat. The spell miss messages throughout the game have been spruced up nicely though, so its easier to pick them out in the spam.

Oh, and attempting to touch an ally (for a heal spell or buff) is an automatic success. For that matter, beneficial spells will not be discharged on enemies by accident - so if you're holding a heal and a harm spell, it automatically knows which one to discharge based on the target's relation to you. So to boil all that down: all you have to do is cast touch spells normally, and if you miss, type 'touch' every round until you see it discharge. I don't think anyone will have a problem adjusting to this, and for the record, there really aren't all that many touch spells, relatively.
D&D has A LOT of friendly buff spells that are considered touch, but most of those are just regular spells in 2.0.

Melee vs. Magic Balance

2. Thats kind of a big question. Both magic and combat (its not just melee combat anymore, remember ranged weapons!) have been vastly expanded and overhauled. The difference is that the combat classes needed to be elevated, while the caster classes mostly needed refinement and variety. I have endeavored to make melee classes much more important and balanced in 2.0 with the introduction of combat maneuvers, styles, feats, weapons, and armor - and I have some very exciting things still to be revealed that will help make things clearer. I think we've struck a good balance, and we will keep tweaking it as needed - as always.

Urogalan?

3. Yes, Urogalan is a selectable halfling deity. His domains are: Earth, Law, Protection, Halfling, Repose. I'll be posting the complete deity list in the very near future.

I hope that answers your questions and assuages some of your fears.
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Postby Birile » Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:58 pm

Shevarash wrote:Urogalan?

3. Yes, Urogalan is a selectable halfling deity. His domains are: Earth, Law, Protection, Halfling, Repose. I'll be posting the complete deity list in the very near future.


Okay, this was all I really cared about, thanks!

Oh--since you gave a ranger tease, I think a bard one is in order, too...
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Postby Shevarash » Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:07 pm

Tasan wrote:Have the old mob races been rewritten(or in the works) so that they reflect immunities and vulnerabilities that are more consistant with 3.5?


Yes. The entire race system has been rewritten and is very similar to 3.5 now. We have racial types, subtypes, templates, and specific races. Immunities, vulnerabilities, natural armor and weapons, attack bonuses, etc can all be adjusted in many places. This will make sense to those of you familiar with the D&D system, if you're not you'll have to read up on it or wait for a more detailed post explaining it. One important little detail is that things like Undead or Lycanthropes are no longer a race unto themselves - they're just templates applied to an existing race. This allows, say, an undead giant to retain the aspects of a giant in addition to those of the undead. I think areamakers will enjoy the new flexibility in creating mobs greatly...

Tasan wrote:Will there be spells such as Finger of Death, Flesh to Stone and Disintegrate? Will those spells still allow for instant death? How often are we going to have to deal with such things?


Finger of Death and Disintegrate are both spells in 2.0. Finger of Death does have an instant death affect if the target fails their save, but Disintegrate does not. However, any spell that has instant death potential will require components - and you will not often see mobs possessing those components. You may get finger of death'ed
by a mob once in a great while, but it will not be a common occurence by any means.

Tasan wrote:Will silence go back to radius format v. person?



The spell "silence" has a small radius, which only affects enemies of the caster. All targets within the radius get a chance to save vs. the silence. So, no, we're not going back to room silence, but we are expanding the radius a bit.

Tasan wrote:Will there be front/back ranks or similar mitigation for spellcasters/melee types during large scale battles?


Not currently, but that could be something added in a post 2.0 release. We'll have to see if there's any need for it.

Tasan wrote:Will we have to wait as long as Menzo took? :D


Not even close. :)
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Postby Cirath » Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:08 am

With the adjustment of the melee, ranged and spell systems, will classes be as flexible in their roles as is possible in tabletop? For example, will it be possible to play a fighter or cleric that provides significant offense, rather than just soaking damage? Or will all the classes be pigeonholed into their old niches?

Will certain weapon types give bonuses to certain combat manuvers (like halberds giving a bonus to trip, or flails a bonus to disarm)?

Oh, and will the Anti-paladin be getting a less ridiculous name?
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Postby moritheil » Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:40 am

Presumably the Antipaladin will go by its 3.5 name, the Blackguard . . . good catch though. Are races/classes in general going to go by their 3.5 names?

Birile, in 3.5 disintegrate doesn't insta-kill; it does 40d6 damage and eliminates your remains if you die from it.
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:50 am

Cirath wrote:With the adjustment of the melee, ranged and spell systems, will classes be as flexible in their roles as is possible in tabletop? For example, will it be possible to play a fighter or cleric that provides significant offense, rather than just soaking damage? Or will all the classes be pigeonholed into their old niches?


Another very broad question. The answer is yes - in fact, achieving that kind of versatility is the real impetus behind this entire project. You can build your character in 2.0 very close to the way you would build a character in tabletop. Feats, skills, spells, domains, specialties, weapons, armor, should give you great freedom in determining your character's strengths and weaknesses. Of course, if that's not your thing its also pretty easy to build a cookie cutter character if you so desire.

Cirath wrote:Will certain weapon types give bonuses to certain combat manuvers (like halberds giving a bonus to trip, or flails a bonus to disarm)?


Yep! Reach weapons (halberds, polearms, spiked chains, etc) give bonuses to trip, flails and the like give bonuses to disarm, lances do double damage when mounted. Weapon type actually matters now, and picking the weapons that suit your character's style should be alot of fun. We also have double weapons, which I personally really enjoy...

Cirath wrote:Oh, and will the Anti-paladin be getting a less ridiculous name?


Yes.
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:53 am

moritheil wrote:Presumably the Antipaladin will go by its 3.5 name, the Blackguard . . . good catch though. Are races/classes in general going to go by their 3.5 names?


For the most part, yes. Not only will things adhere to the d20 naming scheme more closely, but also the Forgotten Realms campaign. e.g., Grey Elves have been renamed to Moon Elves.
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:31 am

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Postby Todrael » Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:54 am

Will evilrace be able to group with goodrace?

Will people have to do alignment work to remain within the ranges that afford them the equipment/spells/deities they desire? For example, will it still take ages to go from -1000 to 0? Or is the entire alignment system turning from point-based to Chaotic Good types? If so, will killing mobs still swing your alignment?

If possible, please expand on the role of Liches. Will more than just Necromancers be able to become liches? Will they still be masters of the undead? Will there be strict requirements for feats/skills people take to become/remain a lich? Will this class/template become even more niche than it is now, such as by reducing the number of spell schools even more than a specialist?

Will pets (undead, summoned, etc) be more useful and varied than they are now?

Will wizard classes have familiars and associated bonuses?
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Postby Tasan » Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:55 am

moritheil wrote:Birile, in 3.5 disintegrate doesn't insta-kill; it does 40d6 damage and eliminates your remains if you die from it.


That was me, not Birile :p. And since when do most things survive 40d6 :P
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Postby Lilira » Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:19 pm

You'd be surprised.. I've actually rolled all ones before. *mutter*

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Postby Ragorn » Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:08 pm

Tasan wrote:
moritheil wrote:Birile, in 3.5 disintegrate doesn't insta-kill; it does 40d6 damage and eliminates your remains if you die from it.


That was me, not Birile :p. And since when do most things survive 40d6 :P

At level 20, when your Disintegrate deals 40d6, just about everything you fight will survive 140 hit points worth of damage :P
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Postby moritheil » Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:11 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Tasan wrote:
moritheil wrote:Birile, in 3.5 disintegrate doesn't insta-kill; it does 40d6 damage and eliminates your remains if you die from it.


That was me, not Birile :p. And since when do most things survive 40d6 :P

At level 20, when your Disintegrate deals 40d6, just about everything you fight will survive 140 hit points worth of damage :P


Sorry, Tasan.

I guess I should go into detail a little: it deals caster level x2d6, which caps at 40d6. If the victim makes a Fort save, he/she/it only takes 5d6. Note that undead have spectacularly low Fort saves, which makes this a popular spell for dealing with them. Either way (save or no), dying to this spell means your remains are disintegrated.

Further detail is available at the d20srd. ;)

Sarvis,

In general 3.5, rangers have some spells that vastly increase their damage output for a few rounds, plus some utility spells such as entangle. Heck, swift haste is a tabletop 2nd-level ranger spell! (It doesn't last too long, though.)

I'd imagine Shev is going roughly along the same lines with the spell list, though of course some spells just don't translate well, so we'll have to wait and see for the details.
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:06 pm

Todrael wrote:Will evilrace be able to group with goodrace?


There are no plans to change the grouping restrictions at this time. However, when everything is finished and I have a better idea of the racial balance, I will re-evaluate this policy and share my findings here.

Todrael wrote:Will people have to do alignment work to remain within the ranges that afford them the equipment/spells/deities they desire? For example, will it still take ages to go from -1000 to 0? Or is the entire alignment system turning from point-based to Chaotic Good types? If so, will killing mobs still swing your alignment?


I'm not going to go into this in too much detail as there should and will be an entire post dedicated to alignment. However, I can tell you that alignment now uses the standard 9 D&D alignments - Lawful Good through Chaotic Evil - rather than a point system. You will choose your own alignment and it can and will change, but not through grinding.

Todrael wrote:If possible, please expand on the role of Liches. Will more than just Necromancers be able to become liches? Will they still be masters of the undead? Will there be strict requirements for feats/skills people take to become/remain a lich? Will this class/template become even more niche than it is now, such as by reducing the number of spell schools even more than a specialist?


Liches are the last class to be finished, and to be honest they're still somewhat in flux. The basic concept is still the same - Liches are a heavily restricted class that have access to unique magic and powerful undead. In exchange for these powers, the lich will most likely have to be a Necromancy specialist in addition to banning another spell school. That
hasn't been set in stone yet, and your feedback would be welcome.

Todrael wrote:Will pets (undead, summoned, etc) be more useful and varied than they are now?


Absolutely. There are tons of new pet spells and all the old ones have been completely re-done. There's a big variety in the kinds of pets you can use, and what you can do with them. Don't worry though - pets will not be replacing PC tanks anytime soon. The goal with pets has been to use them for damage, utility, short-term tanking, and solo play, without
usurping the role of PCs in the group.

Todrael wrote:Will wizard classes have familiars and associated bonuses?


Yes - although this might debut after the initial 2.0 release (2.1?).
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Postby Drahken » Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:36 pm

I believe in another thread it was said that Mages will keep their quested spells and still be able to use them in 2.0 even if they specialize in another school, provided the quests spells are not from an opposing school. I assume this means that say a necromancer could become an illusionist and still retain soul walk, or an enchanter becoming a conjurer and retaining dragon scales or a elementalist with fire embody becoming a transmuter.

- Will this kind of multiclass like spell selection be available only to pre-2.0 mages who have already quested these spells or will these quest spells still be available to any specialized mage provided the spell is not from an opposing school?

- What will Dire Raiders become? Battlechanters?

- Will pre-2.0 characters be able to convert to a hybrid class from a base class if that class wasn't previously available to that race? i.e. warriors to rangers, rogues to bards, etc?

- Will justice be changed at all? If so, will good races have more of a chance (and vice versa)to be able to move about evil race cities without mobs being summoned to their room.
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:10 pm

Drahken wrote:I believe in another thread it was said that Mages will keep their quested spells and still be able to use them in 2.0 even if they specialize in another school, provided the quests spells are not from an opposing school. I assume this means that say a necromancer could become an illusionist and still retain soul walk, or an enchanter becoming a conjurer and retaining dragon scales or a elementalist with fire embody becoming a transmuter.


That's correct. There are some top level spells that can only be cast by specialists, but these will be all new spells. Also, just to be clear, there's no such thing as "opposed schools". The caster gets to pick which two schools to ban when specializing, which is a subtle, but important difference from the concept of naturally opposing schools.

Drahken wrote:- Will this kind of multiclass like spell selection be available only to pre-2.0 mages who have already quested these spells or will these quest spells still be available to any specialized mage provided the spell is not from an opposing school?


This does not just apply to pre-2.0 mages. A wizard or wizard specialist can cast any spell from the Wizard spell list so long as it it not from a banned school, and is not one of the new top-level specialist-only spells which, again, are all new spells.


Drahken wrote:- What will Dire Raiders become? Battlechanters?


Not ready to comment on that just yet, but I can assure you that I haven't forgotten about them.

Drahken wrote:- Will pre-2.0 characters be able to convert to a hybrid class from a base class if that class wasn't previously available to that race? i.e. warriors to rangers, rogues to bards, etc?


Well, its kind of a tempting idea, but the problem lies in the huge number of new race/class combinations possible in 2.0 overall. Everyone would be eligible to change classes, and it would be rather chaotic to try and handle all of it, much less code all of the conversion cases. In light of that, we decided to auto-convert certain classes - like the Mages - when required, and for everything else, well...the new character generator is much improved. :)

Drahken wrote:- Will justice be changed at all? If so, will good races have more of a chance (and vice versa)to be able to move about evil race cities without mobs being summoned to their room.


Justice is one of the few things that we haven't changed at all. This will be addressed after the core gameplay changes are in and working, along with guildhalls, crafting, etc.
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Postby The_Axxsinlazzam » Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:03 am

Hi ya Shev,

How about a little squid loving here and spill some beans?

Are squids gonna be able to dominate caster type pets?
a little info on squids and i would be much obliged. :twisted:

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Postby Cirath » Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:42 am

With the opening up of class/race combonation restrictions, will classes previously offered only to one side (druids, psionicists, rangers, dire raiders, paladins, anti-paladins, bards, battlechanters) be offered to both? Sure, some of the roles overlap, but they perform the tasks in slightly different ways.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:37 am

Will choice of deity make a difference for anybody besides cleric types?

Will new features be available that will make creative uses of skills like 'climb' and 'use rope' in zones?

Is there any point to bringing more Forgotten Realms theme to the game, or will there be any more emphasis on the RP aspect of the game in 2.0?

OLC?

How will equipment stats be brought into line in the new system with such broad alterations to the way base stats function?
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Postby Sarell » Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:24 am

Will toril2 have room for a scripting system for area builders to control rooms/objects/mobs actions and special actions?

Will neutral humans be able to join or lead evil guilds?
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Postby Solak » Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:15 am

Will there be brew potion, scribe scroll and craft wands feats for wizards? If so, will they be exactly same in tabletop? If not, why:)?
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:02 pm

The_Axxsinlazzam wrote:Hi ya Shev,

How about a little squid loving here and spill some beans?

Are squids gonna be able to dominate caster type pets?
a little info on squids and i would be much obliged. :twisted:

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Still not ready to discuss details concerning Psis, but I can tell you that the entire psionic system has been redone from the ground up, and is based off of the new spell engine. You can expect a ton more options to choose from and psi powers to play with.
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:03 pm

Cirath wrote:With the opening up of class/race combonation restrictions, will classes previously offered only to one side (druids, psionicists, rangers, dire raiders, paladins, anti-paladins, bards, battlechanters) be offered to both? Sure, some of the roles overlap, but they perform the tasks in slightly different ways.


Yes, there will be some classes opening up to other race sides. You'll have to wait for the final Class/Race list to find out which.
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:23 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Will choice of deity make a difference for anybody besides cleric types?


Not at first, outside of a few spells that target followers of the cleric's own deity. However, there are lots of possibilities for the future (religious orders?), and the RPQ staff will be able to see who your chosen deity is and roleplay with you accordingly. Hopefully just being able to flesh out your characters in this way will help you develop their identity a little more, even if their aren't a lot of big gameplay rewards.

Ashiwi wrote:Will new features be available that will make creative uses of skills like 'climb' and 'use rope' in zones?


Nothing along those lines are planned right now, but its certainly something we could do if areamakers are interested in including features like that in their new zones. I'll investigate that more when I work with areamakers to get their new zones converted into 2.0...

Ashiwi wrote:Is there any point to bringing more Forgotten Realms theme to the game, or will there be any more emphasis on the RP aspect of the game in 2.0?


We're bringing a lot more FR authenticity to the game in little ways, such as adding FR specific deities, domains, and spells as well as renaming several races. The RPQ staff will be as active as ever, and they'll also have some new tools (look at your last question..) for interacting with your characters. Hopefully all of the new tools for customizing one's character will result in stronger character identity which in turn will result in better roleplaying.

Ashiwi wrote:OLC?


Not initially. Core gameplay first, then tools and meta-game projects.

Ashiwi wrote:How will equipment stats be brought into line in the new system with such broad alterations to the way base stats function?


As an area maker myself I know just how difficult it is to make mass changes to tons of area files, so I've approached this from the beginning with the aim of making the transition as simple as possible.

In short, all object conversion will be automated in a way that should preserve the intended power of a particular object - such as all AGI items turn into DEX items, POW turns into CHA, etc. After the automated conversion we will review the high level equipment to make sure everything is in line. Even with all of that work, there will undoubtedly be plenty of items that slip though the cracks, and we will address them as they pop up.
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:27 pm

Sarell wrote:Will toril2 have room for a scripting system for area builders to control rooms/objects/mobs actions and special actions?


No, there's nothing like that - outside of the proc and soc systems which are quite powerful - but there are a heck of a lot of other new tools for areamakers. These new tools should make new zones more interesting as well as spruce up some older ones. Some examples would be racial templates and monster feats, both of which allow some pretty interesting customization of mobs.

Sarell wrote:Will neutral humans be able to join or lead evil guilds?


I don't know - that's not really a code issue.
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:28 pm

Solak wrote:Will there be brew potion, scribe scroll and craft wands feats for wizards? If so, will they be exactly same in tabletop? If not, why:)?


No, not initially. I do plan on adding these in the future though, once the core gameplay elements are in.
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Postby Birile » Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:25 pm

How will things like Tumble work in battle? Will they be automatically reflexive, or will we have to type something to do the action?
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:41 pm

For that matter, will we have the Tumble skill?
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Postby Drahken » Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:55 pm

Will we see (m)any changes to racial innate abilities?
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:53 am

Next Ranger question: What role do you see Rangers fulfilling in a group? This is to say, what's going to make group leaders want to bring us along?
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Postby Vigis » Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:34 pm

How is alignment restricted equipment going to work? Will we have equipment that only followers of certain clerics can use, etc?

Are barbarians going to be an option as a race, or will they be a class in 2.0?
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Postby Shevarash » Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:38 pm

Birile wrote:How will things like Tumble work in battle? Will they be automatically reflexive, or will we have to type something to do the action?


Tumble is a reflexive skill. In general, what we know now as combat skills - bash, spunch, etc - will be tactical actions, feats, or both. Skills that can affect combat are generally all reflexive. This may make mroe sense when I post about skills...
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Postby Shevarash » Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:43 pm

Drahken wrote:Will we see (m)any changes to racial innate abilities?


Yes, there will be some changes. The old innate system is gone, and replaced by racial attributes and feats. I think in general there's much less need for an innate system with a good feat system in place, but some races will still get special abilities available only to them.
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Postby Shevarash » Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:48 pm

Sarvis wrote:Next Ranger question: What role do you see Rangers fulfilling in a group? This is to say, what's going to make group leaders want to bring us along?


Well, it's hard to say specifically because it really depends on your particular build. In general, Rangers kill things and scout.
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Postby Shevarash » Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:54 pm

Vigis wrote:How is alignment restricted equipment going to work? Will we have equipment that only followers of certain clerics can use, etc?


Alignment restricted equipment will work pretty much the same way it does now, with the addition of ANTI_LAWFUL and ANTI_CHAOTIC items. Personally I hope for much less alignment restricted equipment but that is something the Areas sphere and I will be talking about soon. As for deity-specific equipment, yes, those may exist but only for very high level items.

Vigis wrote:Are barbarians going to be an option as a race, or will they be a class in 2.0?


I'm not going to confirm or deny new classes at this point, but I will tell you that the Barbarian race is not going anywhere.
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:05 pm

Shevarash wrote:
Sarvis wrote:Next Ranger question: What role do you see Rangers fulfilling in a group? This is to say, what's going to make group leaders want to bring us along?


Well, it's hard to say specifically because it really depends on your particular build. In general, Rangers kill things and scout.



Hrm... can it be assumed that rogues also scout, and invokers kill things?
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Postby Shevarash » Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:50 pm

Of course, but this is obviously very oversimplified. A ranger is a full combat class, which means their primary goal is to deal damage via physical force and protect their weaker party members. Does a ranger offer anything to a group that another class cannot?

No. We're trying to get away from that kind of thinking, because it's what leads to cookie cutter classes. A group leader will no longer have to fill his group based on strict class quotas ("I need three warriors, one ranger, two enchanters, three clerics, etc") but instead by roles. If you know you need three tanks you can pick a pal, an anti, a warrior, or a ranger and have a fair degree of confidence that they can fill that role because all of those classes share some important aspects - they have full BAB, automatic proficiencies with most weapons/armor, and high hitpoints so hence can perform the same function. HOW they perform that function depends on their character's specific build, as does their specialty. You might play a ranger that takes feats to excel at tanking, or you might prefer to specialize in staying away from the battle and using your missile weapons.

Ultimately, what makes a Ranger unique is the fact that they are a full combat class that can also cast and has lots of skills. It's a pretty versatile class and sounds like a lot of fun to play to me. I hope you agree.
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:11 pm

Shevarash wrote:Of course, but this is obviously very oversimplified. A ranger is a full combat class, which means their primary goal is to deal damage via physical force and protect their weaker party members. Does a ranger offer anything to a group that another class cannot?

No. We're trying to get away from that kind of thinking, because it's what leads to cookie cutter classes. A group leader will no longer have to fill his group based on strict class quotas ("I need three warriors, one ranger, two enchanters, three clerics, etc") but instead by roles. If you know you need three tanks you can pick a pal, an anti, a warrior, or a ranger and have a fair degree of confidence that they can fill that role because all of those classes share some important aspects - they have full BAB, automatic proficiencies with most weapons/armor, and high hitpoints so hence can perform the same function. HOW they perform that function depends on their character's specific build, as does their specialty. You might play a ranger that takes feats to excel at tanking, or you might prefer to specialize in staying away from the battle and using your missile weapons.

Ultimately, what makes a Ranger unique is the fact that they are a full combat class that can also cast and has lots of skills. It's a pretty versatile class and sounds like a lot of fun to play to me. I hope you agree.


I like the current ranger class too, the problem is that without a specific role to play group leaders often don't seem to care about getting a ranger for their group. It might be mitigated by trying to move away from that kind of thinking, but if rogues scout better then a group leader needing a scout will want a rogue. If invokers kill things better, a group leader needing damage will want a voker.

Everyone gets the same skills, but they cost different based on class right? (Assuming it works like 3E here.) What skills will be primary for Rangers, and how will they be expressed in the MUD?

Ok, non-ranger question: Are there any plans to create compelling solo content for those times when we can't find a group? By this I would mean soloable zones, quests, or maybe something like crafting.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:49 pm

You've touched on Liches and that you weren't ready to say to much but how about to these questions?

Will liches still be pigeon-holed into the three races that can lich now, or will any race within reason be able to become a necromancer, and then lich?

Along with that, will be there good aligned liches? Elven liches(Can't remember the name. Baelnorn? Something like that), and/or demi-liches?
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Postby Ragorn » Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:59 pm

Under 3.5 rules, Rangers and Rogues have exactly the same level of "sneaky" ability. Hide and Move Silently are both in-class skills for both classes, and both classes are (generally) restricted to light-armor, high-dex builds. Most people who play Rangers put some points into Hide/MS, but you don't necessarily have to MAX those skills because there will generally already be a Rogue in the group who does.

In Toril terms, you could build a Ranger with max hide/sneak for CR runs if you wanted to. However, you have to pick and choose your skills... if you go max sneaky, you'll have to skimp on the animal control skills (handle animal, ride) or the spellcasting skills (concentration, spellcraft), or the mobility skills (jump, climb, swim), or the detection skills (listen, search, spot), or the knowledge skills (dungeoneering, nature), or the survival skills (survival, use rope). You won't have enough skill points to max these all... so choose wisely.

The next question is "Why bring a Rogue if a Ranger can sneak just as well?" Because Rogues not only get MORE skill points to spend (and thus have more varied skillsets), they also get access to the dungeoneering skills (disable device, open lock) and the diplomacy skills (bluff, intimidate, diplomacy) that Rangers don't get. Plus a whole bunch of other useful skills (use magic device most notably). And there are combat-related reasons to favor one class over the other, depending on what you need.

So the question is a lot more difficult than "what will you bring a Ranger for?" The answer depends entirely on what skills, feats, equipment, and abilities that Ranger brings to the table. If you don't have a Rogue, a sneaky Ranger might do.
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:07 pm

Ragorn wrote:Under 3.5 rules, Rangers and Rogues have exactly the same level of "sneaky" ability.


"Rangers" in 3.5 should have been renamed to scouts. :P

If you don't have a Rogue, a sneaky Ranger might do.



See, that's what worries me. I don't want to see Rangers be second class citizens in the group pecking order. I want Rangers to be wanted, not substitutes for what's wanted.
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Postby moritheil » Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:11 pm

Baelnorn is indeed the name used to refer to a good-aligned elven lich that has stayed on to protect something important.

FWIW, I was just reading Todrael's old post on his experiences as a lich and how the little things can matter - I highly recommend people who haven't played lich read that before arguing for or against more benefits for liches.

Sarvis, there is a separate scout class in 3.5. It's far more rogue-like than the ranger is.
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Postby Shevarash » Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:00 pm

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:Will liches still be pigeon-holed into the three races that can lich now, or will any race within reason be able to become a necromancer, and then lich?


It will be opened up to more races.

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:Along with that, will be there good aligned liches? Elven liches(Can't remember the name. Baelnorn? Something like that), and/or demi-liches?


Not under the current Lich class, no. The Lich class we feature now is purely evil, and while the racial requirements will change the alignment will not. That's not to say that a good aligned lich prestige class won't ever be introduced...
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Postby Eilistraee » Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:18 pm

Sarvis, an equally valid question that will come up will be 'well we can't get a ranger, I guess a rogue will do'

That's one of the points of the whole gameplay extensive revision. All of these old prejudices you are hanging onto tenaciously won't apply. A warrior won't be the only class that can block attacks with a shield. A ranger won't be the only frontline class that can proficiently use multiple weapons.

How a person has built their character will play a much, much more vital role than what class sits next to their name. A class choice will steer you onto a very broad guideline of what sorts of abilities to pursue. The days of grabbing any 3 warriors to tank instead of a warrior and two rangers, on the sole basis that the warriors have more ability to negate attacks, will be over. It will no longer be the pre-ordained that a warrior will have dodge, parry, riposte and shieldblock ability. It will no longer be pre-ordained that... well just about anything.

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