3.5 DnD build question

Discussion concerning the upcoming Toril 2.0 update as well as general 3.5 edition D&D discussion
Branthur
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3.5 DnD build question

Postby Branthur » Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:37 am

So, we're playing an evil campaign at the moment, and things are going rather well. Unfortunately I'm running into a bit of a block as to what my character should go into next, and figured I'd post what I have so far, in the hopes that someone who has a book that I don't have might have a brilliant idea.

My stats are excellent..I'll just leave it at that. I got ungodly lucky with my stat rolls. I would say I cheated if I hadn't rolled them in front of two other people.

I'm playing a human, who has been reincarnated now into a Gnoll. We are playing in Forgotten Realms.

Cleric 6 of Jergal/Master of Shrouds 8
Alignment - Neutral
Feats - Mercantile Background, Spontaneous Healer, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning, Quicken Spell, Divine Metamagic Quicken Spell, Quicken Turning, Extra Rebuking (bonus feat from MoS). We were allowed one flaw, which I took so that I could take spontaneous healer as soon as possible. Yes, I know I could have gotten into MoS earlier, but I was being nice to our DM.

I'm playing a high dex/wis cleric, wearing a Monk's belt for the ac instead of armor/shield. Have my rebuke undead raised up so that I turn as a 23rd level cleric.

The problem is that I'm having trouble deciding what to do after I'm done with Master of Shrouds in two levels. I can always just go back to cleric, and that is definitely not a bad option, but I'm hoping to find something that fits themewise that gives full progression casting and has a good Fortitude save progression, as MoS does not, and I'd like to make up for that a bit if I can.

Any ideas?
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:17 am

When in doubt, I go Contemplative. Bonus domains are always nice!

If you want to build a high-save character and don't care about losing a level or two of clerical casting, Pious Templar is a natural choice for Mettle.

Another save-related option is the Divine Oracle. You may have to burn a feat to get in, but it grants Evasion at level 2.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'
Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'
Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
Branthur
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Postby Branthur » Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:41 am

It's not really that I'm looking for a high save character, I'm just looking for something to fill out my last 4 levels (MoS will take me through 16th). My preference would be for a class that progresses a good Fort save..don't really care about reflex, since as a cleric there's really no such thing as a good reflex save. :P

I thought about Contemplative...that's one of my go to classes as well, but unfortunately it only progresses a good Will save, and both Reflex and Fortitude are poor. If I can't find something that I can fit into somewhat easily with good Fort, I could easily just take Thaumaturgist, since I qualify for that already.

I suppose I _could_ lose one more caster level (MoS only progresses CL 2-10), but I'd rather not as it is an evil campaign, and a full artillary of spells could be needed if I have to kill my fellow party members (not that I want to *whistle*)
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:19 am

First, I know nothing about Forgotten Realms D&D, including your prestige class. So, I'm basically stabbing in the dark.

Divine Oracle? You get full spell progression, you get a bonus domain, Evasion (they call it Prescient Sense because it works in heavy armor), Uncanny Dodge, and you can reroll your divination rolls. All of this comes in the first four levels of the PrC. I guarantee you already qualify for the class, except you'll need to burn one feat for Skill Focus (Knowledge: Religion).
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
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Ragorn
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:20 am

Also, I should have read mori's post all the way to the bottom, where he already recommended the Divine Oracle ;)
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Birile
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Postby Birile » Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:20 pm

I'm at work so I can't check out the books that I've got, though you've probably got them all and more (although you may not have Complete Scoundrel since it just came out--not sure it's worth it, in case you were wondering).

Checked the crystal keep, I know it's full of errors, but Divine Oracle looks nice--especially for Prescient Sense, etc. Contemplative's first two levels look promising... also, I don't know if the Player's Guide to Faerun is part of the Forgotten Realms campaign (or even if it's 3.5) but the Divine Disciple looks to have easy reqs, full caster progression and a good fort/will progression.

If I had to choose I'd probably go Divine Oracle though, but I'm a n00b. Or maybe get 1 level of Contemplative for the disease immunity and then Divine Oracle, or something.
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:47 pm

The thing is, Contemplative is more than just extra domains - you also get a progressively larger list of immunities. If you're worried about teammates betraying you, poison immunity and other (normally) rarely-used things become more important. I *think*, without checking the book, that you can get a few such immunities in 4 levels, along with two bonus domains.

Contemplative is usually superior to Thaumaturgist, unless perhaps domains are tightly restricted or you're going to go pretty far into Thaumaturgist and have some very specific ideas about allies. Another class with smaller HD and only good Will saves to consider is Elemental Savant. Clerics don't give up as much in the way of spell flexibility when using it, and it grants some interesting immunities.

Well, there's always something like warpriest if you prefer the hands-on approach.

PS: It is a common assumption that Clerics have no prestige class options that grant good Reflex saves. Nothing could be further from the truth! The Ruathar class requires you to perform a service for an elven community, and rewards you with full casting for 3 levels, good Reflex saves, 3/4 BAB progression, and a few minor benefits.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
Ragorn
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:05 pm

The first three levels of Contemplative give you a bonus domain of your choice, immunity to disease, Slippery Mind (the ability to reroll a failed Will save vs. Enchantment), and a very minor layhands ability (4x class level, so 12 hit points at level 3). You get strong Will, 1/2 BAB, and d6 hit points. There is no point in taking a 4th level of Contemplative... you get no class abilities at level 4.

I think I'd go with the Oracle. The fact that you get "evasion" AND Uncanny Dodge within the first 4 levels is huge. The bonus domain and extra Divination abilities are just icing.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Branthur
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Postby Branthur » Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:19 pm

Branthur wrote: My preference would be for a class that progresses a good Fort save..


Have to say this again I guess. :) I know all about the benefits of Divine Oracle and Contemplative..they're on my list! The problem though is that both of these classes ONLY have a good Will save progression. I am just getting done with 10 levels of Master of Shrouds, which also only has a good Will save progression, so I'm trying to find something that buffs up my Fort save! :)

I just ran across the Bone Knight class from one of the Eberron books. Not sure if the DM would allow me the class, and it does lose that one CL progression at 1st level, but it does have a good Fort save progression, and also is one of the few classes out there that continues to advance Rebuke Undead.
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:20 pm

Ah, the perils of not having a book with me. I suppose I should point out that Uncanny Dodge can be had for the cost of one domain slot (the Fate domain gives it as the granted power.)

FWIW, Divine Oracle is so good that I have actually taken a paladin into that class (Evasion in full plate is very useful against dragons.)

EDIT: I see you want Fort saves. Hmm. Warpriest comes to mind, but it only has 1/2 caster progression. There should be a class called Divine Disciple in PGF that grants telepathy 100' and a bonus to saves against outsiders, as well as basically acting similar to cleric levels. It doesn't advance rebuking, however.

The main difficulty here in terms of PrC selection is that you're not good-aligned. Good-aligned clerics probably have the most PrCs to pick and choose from.

If you're really worried about Fort saves and don't mind losing one level of casting, I still suggest one level of Pious Templar for Mettle and a boost to Fort and Will.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
Birile
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Postby Birile » Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:41 pm

moritheil wrote:There should be a class called Divine Disciple in PGF that grants telepathy 100' and a bonus to saves against outsiders, as well as basically acting similar to cleric levels. It doesn't advance rebuking, however.


Bah, no one listens to the Bard when he makes this same suggestion... hmmph.
Gurns
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Postby Gurns » Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:03 am

Birile wrote:
moritheil wrote:There should be a class called Divine Disciple

Bah, no one listens to the Bard when he makes this same suggestion... hmmph.

It's the BBS, so you shouldn't have used Suggestion, you needed to use Mass Suggestion.
Birile
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Postby Birile » Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:11 am

Gurns wrote:
Birile wrote:
moritheil wrote:There should be a class called Divine Disciple

Bah, no one listens to the Bard when he makes this same suggestion... hmmph.

It's the BBS, so you shouldn't have used Suggestion, you needed to use Mass Suggestion.


I was just targeting Branthur anyway, it shoulda worked! He always fails his saves v. me...
Branthur
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Postby Branthur » Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:31 am

Birile wrote:
Gurns wrote:
Birile wrote:
moritheil wrote:There should be a class called Divine Disciple

Bah, no one listens to the Bard when he makes this same suggestion... hmmph.

It's the BBS, so you shouldn't have used Suggestion, you needed to use Mass Suggestion.


I was just targeting Branthur anyway, it shoulda worked! He always fails his saves v. me...


Hehe. :)

Seriously though, I looked at DD as well, but if I remember right again it only progresses a good Will save, and not Fort. I _think_ 3rd edition it had both good Fort and Will, but got nerfed in 3.5. I'm just guessing though. I don't have my books in front of me at work.

edit: Speaking without books is bad...
DD does progress good fort save as well. Birile gets a cookie. It doesn't help with my rebuking at all, but really, not much does. On the other hand, the abilities granted pale in comparison to..well...straight cleric, if you're using a turn/rebuke build. :(
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:10 am

Sorry, Birile! Made my edit in a hurry - that's why it was a postscript!

IIRC DD actually works best with an outsider summoning build, and MoS is an undead summoning build. So while nice, DD isn't optimal for the existing build here. Branthur is absolutely correct in pointing that out.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
Ragorn
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:19 am

Divine Oracle is so good, I'm thinking about taking my Dervish into it (BAB and save progression doesn't matter in the epic levels).
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.

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