Toril 2.0 Liches

[Todrael]

Liches are the last class to be finished, and to be honest they're still somewhat in flux. The basic concept is still the same - Liches are a heavily restricted class that have access to unique magic and powerful undead. In exchange for these powers, the lich will most likely have to be a Necromancy specialist in addition to banning another spell school. That hasn't been set in stone yet, and your feedback would be welcome.

Liches will likely be one of the hardest classes to balance on Toril 2.0, simply because the template for Undead is so different from any other character class. It renders a character "Immune to mind-influencing effects, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, and disease. Not subject to critical hits, subdual damage, ability damage, energy drain, or death from massive damage." It changes their fundamental nature; they are driven insane or emotionally corrupted, they are granted a view toward an infinite future, and they are made a pariah from all Prime Plane societies except the most vile.

In game terms, all the benefits of undeath are physical and magical, and all the detriments are mental, emotional, and social. In a tabletop game, this is easy to reconcile, as RolePlaying will become significantly more difficult when every NPC either wants to kill you or run from you. On a mud, almost all PCs will simply ignore that issue, and group with you regardless - the point of the game is, after all, to have fun with your fellow players.

The lich itself is considered one of the most powerful beings in Forgotten Realms, possessing eons of magical knowledge and a controlling view of the world. Able to span plots across centuries, they remain in their lairs behind layers of minions and allies, rarely venturing into any danger. They possess a physical item, a phylactery, that houses the magical essence which keeps their decaying forms alive, regenerating them should their body be destroyed.

None of that works on the mud, really. Every player has a permanent phylactery - they just hit '1' to re-enter the game on death. No player has a lair or home - everyone rents at the inn. No player remains hidden, sending out minions to do their bidding - they've got to be right there standing next to the dragon to fight it. No player starts evil plots that span centuries - we've got to fit our playing hours around Heroes and when Lili or Ross want to zone (RPQ aside). And game balance demands that physical and magical power be offset by something that has a tangible impact on the character's effectiveness, which cannot be gotten through social, mental, or emotional means in a realm of pure stat-sheets.

There is virtually no material on how to play an Undead character except through a full Undead campaign due to the radically different abilities. All that being said, let's cover some of the major topics that most sources agree upon:

Game benefits might include:

* Increased intelligence, far above the normal of their race, no longer reduction to Charisma, since it's the force of personality and will
* Immune to mind-influencing effects, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, and disease
* Not subject to critical hits, subdual damage, ability damage, energy drain, or death from massive damage
* Immune to cold, electricity, polymorph (can still polymorph themselves)
* No need to eat, drink, breathe, or otherwise sustain their form
* Ability to heal using negative energy
* Numerous powerful minions and pets (summoned, constructed, dominated, or raised), such as the dozens mentioned in Libris Mortis
* Built-in feats/powers, such as chill touch (can use 'touch' when no spells are charged, damage/paralysis), undead vision, and fear aura
* Phylactery item/ability to regenerate your own corpse (self ress or revive)
* Skill bonuses as listed in the Monster Manual

Game detriments might include:

* Prerequisites for lichdom, such as Necromancy feats and specialization, evil alignment, gold/exp expenditure
* Restricted spell sets, such as giving up additional spell schools. This is more restrictive than normal D&D rules; it's one of the few ways of keeping a lich in balance on a mud. Several D&D sources, such as Van Richten's Guide to the Lich, state that Liches are the ultimate generalists, and can learn all spell schools far beyond those of mortals thanks to their infinite lifespans, or retain the same spellcasting abilities as when they were mortal, such as in Libris Mortis and the Monster Manual.
* Almost all NPCs aggro to it unless disguised or hidden, outcast from cities
* No constitution score (low Fortitude save modifier), low hps (d12 with no con modifiers)
* Death at 0 hps instead of negative
* Vulnerability to clerics and paladins, undead turning, undead destruction spells, and positive energy spells
* More difficulty gaining experience
* Inability to heal naturally (no regen)

References:

* Libris Mortis (WTC17924)
* Van Richten's Guide to the Lich (TSR9412)
* The Slayer's Guide to Undead (MPG0016)
* Encyclopaedia Arcane - Necromancy (MGP1002)
* Undead (AEG8504)
* Monster Manual, Revised 3.5 (WTC17755)

[Shevarash]

Great start to this conversation, Todrael. Now, how about the rest of you liches? This is a great opportunity to help shape your class, so lets hear your thoughts...

[Thilindel]

Unlimited moves

Make places, PLEASE, where we don't have to wait to camp out when someone needs an alt to help them ASAP.

IMMUNE DRAGON FEAR - Makes no sense.

They shouldn't show up to others with infravision in dark.

Remove where incendiary cloud blinds. Fireball spell blinds even. Makes no sense.

I don't see how they can resurrect, honestly. Maybe give 'vit' type spell to lich only that he drains his minions in receiving his buffer. If no minions, no lich-type vit. You can't vit undead pets, so why can lich player be vit'd?

Can undead be stunned even?? Referring to shieldpunch/trip and whatever else. I can see holy word doing it since it's a magical/holy effect. No clue. But tblast or dragontail swipe, no..

[Arilin Nydelahar]

Unlimited moves

Make places, PLEASE, where we don't have to wait to camp out when someone needs an alt to help them ASAP.

IMMUNE DRAGON FEAR - Makes no sense.

They shouldn't show up to others with infravision in dark.

Remove where incendiary cloud blinds. Fireball spell blinds even. Makes no sense.

I don't see how they can resurrect, honestly. Maybe give 'vit' type spell to lich only that he drains his minions in receiving his buffer. If no minions, no lich-type vit. You can't vit undead pets, so why can lich player be vit'd?

Can undead be stunned even?? Referring to shieldpunch/trip and whatever else. I can see holy word doing it since it's a magical/holy effect. No clue. But tblast or dragontail swipe, no..

The move thing, eh. Minor annoyance, but not a huge deal. The camping thing, this is really the wrong post for that. That really needs to go in its own cause that's something everyone has to deal with.

As far as the blinds thing, I dunno. I've never run across that but I haven't zoned as the lich since one of the first GF runs. Shieldpunch can make you lose concentration i'm sure which is what stun may turn into, where people lose concentration. As for tail sweep.. That's a big duh. If a dragons tail hits you, lich or not, you're going to get thwacked and probably lose concentration, unless you have a scary high save for it.

I'n most part I like Tod's suggestions. I'd love to be able to create and hide a store spot for my soul per se or essesnce, whatever gets stored in a Phylactery .

In short, I actually like all of what he's posted. I don't have much Lich literature on me, so I can't really say much but I do like the suggestions, even the detriments. I'd be ok with no resses and all that if everything was balanced out to make the lich what it's truly supposed to be.

[Thilindel]

On tailsweep I wasn't talking about losing concentration, I was talking about the stun. I haven't seen any books where undead can be stunned except for holy word. That's why I said no clue.

[moritheil]

Todrael has written a very thoughtful post, as always. One of the best things to see would be consistency between lich undeath and mob undeath - procs and spells that target living things should probably be looked at closely to diminish or negate their effects on liches, while spells that really harm or hinder undead should have similarly disastrous effects on liches. One thing I'd really like to see is neutral and evil high priests rebuking/commanding player liches just as player clerics might command powerful undead to assist them.

For an "RP restriction" I suggest making all but the most desperate quest mobs refuse to talk to a lich or make deals with it, and having shops refuse to sell to/buy from it. I don't know how annoying that would be to code, but if implemented across the board it would certainly be an inconvenience. (Of course, finesse is called for - some societies, such as the drow, revere their liches. It would also be silly to have creatures such as demons refuse to deal with a lich out of disgust - though it would not be unreasonable to have them refuse out of distrust of a lich's scheming tendencies.)

I feel some comments are warranted on the lich in 3.5, particularly with regard to the paralyzing touch and the fear aura.

While the paralyzing touch of a lich is usable at will in 3.5, the lich template is also equivalent to 4 levels of character development (LA +4), so it comes at quite a hefty cost. To begin with, there are many spells in 3.5, such as holy word, whose effects are dependent on the level or hit dice of the victim. Having 4 fewer hit dice can easily be the difference between being damaged/inconvenienced by a spell and being destroyed. Additionally, it is the passage of time that makes one a caster par excellence, not being a lich per se - one actually loses out on four levels of spellcasting when one first becomes a lich. (Libris Mortis goes so far as to suggest that archetypical liches have spent thousands of years practicing their spells daily, and have consequently grown bored.) This is just food for thought when considering why liches are the ultimate spellcasters. Yes, NPC liches have been around for possibly thousands of years, but player liches are all new, having done the lich quest within the time frame of a mortal lifespan or two.

Since paralysis at will could get quite out of hand in terms of zone balance, perhaps this could be made into a rechargable innate that can be used a set number of times per day. Also, some DMs rule that a lich's negative energy touch attack can be used on the lich itself to heal it; others feel that is abusive. If memory serves, the amount of negative energy involved is very small (one die, so maybe around 6 hps per touch), so it's not a time-efficient way to heal, but it is free.

Regarding the fear aura, in 3.5 a lich's fear aura is actually surprisingly weak. Anything that succumbs to a lich's fear aura with any regularity is generally going to be something like 10 levels below it on the 20-level scale, making the aura mostly useful for wading through armies of things that have no business challenging a mighty spellcaster in the first place. In terms of the existing spell set, this could easily be done by having a permanent 'repulsion' effect on the lich. This would be useful in certain circumstances (a lich that stops in the middle of an area like trollbark should be able to memorize undisturbed by pesky low-level nuisances, who will flee when they see it) without being broken (high level agros will still ignore or overcome the fear aura and attack.)

[Birile]

I only have a semi-high level necro, so I don't know how much my comments should be regarded, but here are my thoughts.

Todrael's post is very well-thought out and very scholarly. Nobody questions Todrael's knowledge of the lich class and could make this same statement without actually having read what he wrote.

I like all of the things Todrael posted, however...

I don't think the current lich quest is nearly difficult enough to warrant all of those freakin' boni! And as Todrael mentioned, in D&D liches are generally considered the best generalists. Even upping the difficulty of the lich quest to grant all (or most) of these bonuses, I can see a LOT of people deciding they're going to Lich simply to get these bonuses.

I'm not saying that what he posted doesn't make sense, because in the D&D world everything he said is generally correct. However, for game mechanics: "Holy overpowered, Batman!"

There needs to be some sort of balancing going on. :) But Todrael's post was very sexy...

Edit: I know Todrael listed some possible drawbacks to consider, but in my eyes they don't really compare all that well when stacked up against the benefits he notes. :)

[Tasan]

Lich is basically the only "remort" class available in the game atm. I'm not sure what Shev has in store in regards to PrC's or what not, but I would hope that there would be more kinds of options such as this.

With that said, I have to say I have just about 0 input specific to liches or lichdom. After helping Tod figure out(some of) the quest the first time around, I don't even think I've really been involved in more than 1 or 2 different parts of anyone else's quest. Weighing out if the quest itself is worth the bonuses isn't what people should be looking at however. Whether or not the lich is balanced in comparison to the rest of the classes is a bigger issue. The ability to remort itself is a "bonus" that should be considered in with all the rest as well.

I think it would be awesome if some Kingdom code came in along w/ 2.0 that allowed a lich to build a tower for it's own renting place...

As for the repulsion idea... why not tie this in with the completely worthless prestige attribute and make it work for everyone. Make prestige something you gain over time from completing tasks within the game and not just from being a twink rogue in the arena or killing 1 million DS giants. Take it a few steps further and allow that attribute to nullify aggression from intelligent(non-animal) mobs which are far below your level of power; within reason of course, we don't need moon elves wandering Dobluth Kyor with impunity ;)

Sorry for rambling/hijacking.

[Todrael]

How to Balance a Lich

Liches aren't made to play on a mud. They're made to be powerful, feared, malevolent enemies of PCs. Their powers and abilities are meant to provide extreme challenge to any group of PCs pitted against such a creature. They are, in a word, unbalanced for use as player characters.

Mori came up with a few other detriments that might assist with balancing a lich:

* Inability to speak with many quest mobs
* Inability to shop at stores in most cities
* Limit 'touch' feat to uses per day, fear aura to only low level mobs

The quest to attain lichdom cannot be considered a detriment to the class. The original quest makes no sense, from the perspective of Liches in D&D, or from the theme that's developed in game. It will have to be rewritten and restructured to make sense and fit within the new, much more FR-strict game world Shev is creating. Whether they do this with the first release of Toril 2.0, or wait until they've gotten all the core mechanics in (Toril 2.3, perhaps), we'll have to wait and see.

In addition to the above, we must take into consideration the degree to which the detriments listed in this thread are applied. For example, one might require numerous feats and skills before becoming a lich, thus preventing the character from getting other forms of power. This goes against Shev's stated intention of no more cookie cutter characters, but it does provide a means of balancing feats and powers obtained by lichdom.

Or one might make a severe cut in the exp earned by the character, preventing any form of rapid advancement, and making death/destruction much less enjoyable. Say, a lich only earns half the exp of any other group member. This goes against the stated intention of making exp easier... but a lich must be balanced, and a lich's power is great, should anything close to normal D&D rules be followed.

Perhaps after the remort, they'd even start at level 1 again, rather than 46. A level one undead character in the game might even be more powerful than many level 20s. Along that vein, the gods may want to consider something similar to the level adjustment in D&D. Perhaps remove all benefits from levels 1-10, and calculate everything based on the remaining 40 levels, other than spell circles. Just one more way of reducing a lich's power in ways that don't undermine the theme and closeness to FR/3.5.

In the end, it's all about seeing what works and what doesn't. Personally, I've always felt that Rogues were the Gods of this mud, and have been so for many years now. Liches are relatively obscure and weak compared to many of the other classes, and the benefits of undeath are minor to the point of worthlessness as new spells and classes have come in to supplement the living's lack. Lich spells and pets have been nerfed, time and again, with save reductions, 'damage adjustments', spell circle moves, and ability removals.

The reason all of my detriments are not 'remove this undead power, don't implement this feat, don't allow these spells', is because it goes against the whole purpose of having undead. My posts are advocating a return to the class's roots: Power. Beings to be feared. And so I propose balance in the form of weighing the other end of the scale - just with more weight on each side. A more difficult balancing act, and one I don't envy Shev and co.

"I am every nightmare Mankind ever dreamt. I am the scourge of all his petty ambitions. The champions of light are powerless to hold back the eternally growing tides of my legions. I am everlasting woe." - Unknown Lich, Encyclopedia Arcane - Necromancy - Beyond the Grave

[Thilindel]

It almost seems fun to start at level 1 again, but I would highly emphasize what I'd posted a long time ago about lich being EXTREMELY INTELLIGENT. That was in the helpfile, and I post to 'bitch' about their memtime, so rather than fix the problem, the helpfile was altered.

It's funny most shot that down but now that it's in another thread nobody noticed. Human memtimes _aren't_ worth dying for.

[Tasan]

My posts are advocating a return to the class's roots: Power. Beings to be feared. And so I propose balance in the form of weighing the other end of the scale - just with more weight on each side. A more difficult balancing act, and one I don't envy Shev and co.

Well with a system that is geared more towards more exponential power gains along the curve, I don't see why this wouldn't be possible. The phylactery issue could become an interesting way to counterbalance the power. Consider a scenario where a lich's physical body is destroyed. The lich could undergo a transformation ala wolfing and become a spirit that must return to the place where the phylactery is held to become one with a physical body once more. While a spirit the lich's power could be controlled to give a detriment, but not make them helpless...

[Todrael]

It almost seems fun to start at level 1 again, but I would highly emphasize what I'd posted a long time ago about lich being EXTREMELY INTELLIGENT. That was in the helpfile, and I post to 'bitch' about their memtime, so rather than fix the problem, the helpfile was altered.

It's funny most shot that down but now that it's in another thread nobody noticed. Human memtimes _aren't_ worth dying for.

The lich remort increases PC intelligence and decreases charisma. This used to have an actual effect, but ever since the new character roller, everyone starts with 100 int anyways. So yes, changing the help file was the appropriate action. In Toril 2.0, there is no maximum, only diminishing returns. This means we can again discuss lich having higher intelligence than the base race.

[moritheil]

It almost seems fun to start at level 1 again, but I would highly emphasize what I'd posted a long time ago about lich being EXTREMELY INTELLIGENT. That was in the helpfile, and I post to 'bitch' about their memtime, so rather than fix the problem, the helpfile was altered.

It's funny most shot that down but now that it's in another thread nobody noticed. Human memtimes _aren't_ worth dying for.

The lich remort increases PC intelligence and decreases charisma. This used to have an actual effect, but ever since the new character roller, everyone starts with 100 int anyways. So yes, changing the help file was the appropriate action. In Toril 2.0, there is no maximum, only diminishing returns. This means we can again discuss lich having higher intelligence than the base race.

Slapping a permanent innate maxint bonus on liches might be nifty. After all, they have practiced memorizing their spells nonstop, and don't get distracted by small things like having their ribs crushed, sweating, or starving. Of course, it seems that int will not be restricted to shortening memorization time, so perhaps that's not the way to go about doing things . . .

Actually, it might also be really nifty if liches could memorize in fight rooms but nobody else could. I doubt that it would truly alter zoning mechanics or balance, but it would give them that privileged feeling.

PS - I'm not really sure that it's a good idea to assume that everyone will have base 100int. That has the potential to screw things up for those who rolled under the old system.

Of course, the real issue is in item design - if most of the best mage hps gear has a tiny bit of +int, that will serve to make 100int redundant and ensure that lower int (within reason) is not a huge handicap. If, on the other hand, every last point is accounted for, and needing even a tiny bonus to int means that one loses out on some hps . . . we will see many people coming out with 100int wizards.

I'm going to split this off into another topic.

[Thilindel]

Actually, 2 sided question!

Can yuan/drow/human lich group without racial restrictions as it is, and if not, will they in 2.0?

If (human player) WD/BG turns their back on necro upon liching, I would hope they were welcome in DK, which it seems they are not.

And if, some reason, that drow and yuan liches are still gonna not be able to group with goodrace, will this be changed for 2.0?

I'd like a player to group with another player, if they so choose, regardless of either's race. Just makes for more fun atmosphere to me. Also makes grouping simpler. Late night xp'g is neigh impossible lately.

[Tasan]

Actually, 2 sided question!

Can yuan/drow/human lich group without racial restrictions as it is, and if not, will they in 2.0?

Human liches can go both ways, the other 2 cannot I believe.

If (human player) WD/BG turns their back on necro upon liching, I would hope they were welcome in DK, which it seems they are not.

Liches are by all rights the most shunned things on Faerun from what most accounts say. Not many civilized societies would be comfortable with them roaming about freely. You have to remember, they are undead and undead are almost universally disliked, whether it be tribal races(fear of ancestry/spirits) or the others.

I'd like a player to group with another player, if they so choose, regardless of either's race. Just makes for more fun atmosphere to me. Also makes grouping simpler. Late night xp'g is neigh impossible lately.

I've had little to no problems lately. I think part of the problem is expecting that in times of low pbase(off hours) you should have the benefits of playing during primetime. It just isn't realistic. It might also help if this place became a little less Rogue/NecroMud and players started playing core classes :p

[Llaaldara]

Well here I am. I bet you couldn't wait for me to post? :)

How to Balance a Lich

Liches aren't made to play on a mud. They're made to be powerful, feared, malevolent enemies of PCs. Their powers and abilities are meant to provide extreme challenge to any group of PCs pitted against such a creature. They are, in a word, unbalanced for use as player characters.

Mori came up with a few other detriments that might assist with balancing a lich:

* Inability to speak with many quest mobs
* Inability to shop at stores in most cities
* Limit 'touch' feat to uses per day, fear aura to only low level mobs

The first two are not a way to balance a class, those are a way to create constant complaints, or requests for Lich-loved/friendlyl locations. *veto*

As for the limitations on the frequency of powers (3rd *) so that they cannot be abused, but still keep in theme with the class, yes.

The quest to attain lichdom cannot be considered a detriment to the class. The original quest makes no sense, from the perspective of Liches in D&D, or from the theme that's developed in game. It will have to be rewritten and restructured to make sense and fit within the new, much more FR-strict game world Shev is creating. Whether they do this with the first release of Toril 2.0, or wait until they've gotten all the core mechanics in (Toril 2.3, perhaps), we'll have to wait and see.

Nor can the quest/trek to achieve lichdom be considered as part of class balance. I agree, the current lich quest doesn't make a lick of sense, and always seemed as tho it was written by someone who never read more then a monster manual entry on the subject. I agree something more appropriate is in line for an RP stand point, but do not agree for one second that this should have any consideration what so ever on determining class balance.

In addition to the above, we must take into consideration the degree to which the detriments listed in this thread are applied. For example, one might require numerous feats and skills before becoming a lich, thus preventing the character from getting other forms of power. This goes against Shev's stated intention of no more cookie cutter characters, but it does provide a means of balancing feats and powers obtained by lichdom.

Perhaps. There could be a number of lists that the want-to-be lich has to check off for. One power from this group, one power from that one, or two from this one, and one from this other one, but they could be related spheres, so no two lichs would be EXACTLY the same, but their powers are in similar areas. So we don't have Transmuter lichs lets say. Instead we could have one who has more pet oriented skills, or one that has more negative energy offensive skills, or one that has more defensive skills, or one who put more points into larger more powerful minions, or one that wanted greater numbers of minions, etc.

Different but similar. Check offs from similar spheres of influence. A way to limit power, and as such balance class, but remain individually unique.

Or one might make a severe cut in the exp earned by the character, preventing any form of rapid advancement, and making death/destruction much less enjoyable. Say, a lich only earns half the exp of any other group member. This goes against the stated intention of making exp easier... but a lich must be balanced, and a lich's power is great, should anything close to normal D&D rules be followed.

Again, *veto* Time Sinks Class Balance does not make, Todrael. This is what you are suggesting with this. "Here, we'll balance the class by making people spend more time exp'n." Um, no.

Why? Because at max level, it will make no difference how much time you spent exp'n. Look at WoW and the new level 70 cap. They balanced their classes according to how many skill points they would have at 70, not how long it would take people to get there.

Perhaps after the remort, they'd even start at level 1 again, rather than 46. A level one undead character in the game might even be more powerful than many level 20s. Along that vein, the gods may want to consider something similar to the level adjustment in D&D. Perhaps remove all benefits from levels 1-10, and calculate everything based on the remaining 40 levels, other than spell circles. Just one more way of reducing a lich's power in ways that don't undermine the theme and closeness to FR/3.5.

Same thing again. Still *veto* Now we just have the newbie lich being pleveled up. How is that going to prevent imbalances with the class? It doesn't. It will be completely circumvented.

In the end, it's all about seeing what works and what doesn't. Personally, I've always felt that Rogues were the Gods of this mud, and have been so for many years now. Liches are relatively obscure and weak compared to many of the other classes, and the benefits of undeath are minor to the point of worthlessness as new spells and classes have come in to supplement the living's lack. Lich spells and pets have been nerfed, time and again, with save reductions, 'damage adjustments', spell circle moves, and ability removals.

I agree completely with this paragraph. 100% accurate. There was a time when Toril/Soj lichs were very powerful, easily the most powerful class in the game. They used to fill a role for Evils back then, which allowed them to do zones in a speed similar to Goodies, but even that power became too much. They have since then become shadows of their former glory.

So why can't lich's be powerful? I'll discuss later in thist post.

The reason all of my detriments are not 'remove this undead power, don't implement this feat, don't allow these spells', is because it goes against the whole purpose of having undead. My posts are advocating a return to the class's roots: Power. Beings to be feared. And so I propose balance in the form of weighing the other end of the scale - just with more weight on each side. A more difficult balancing act, and one I don't envy Shev and co.

Therein lies the problem. They need to be powerful, but they can't. The second you make lichs powerful, like they should be, they become an imbalance to the game. Once you have a truly more powerful class, everyone starts making them, and then you have a game full of them, and then nothing is hard, and everything is easy and changes changes changes nerfs nerfs nerfs. It doesn't work.

You can't have both.

I'm honestly coming to the point where I don't even think Lich should be a player class. I don't think it can be done by anyone with a degree of justice that won't unbalance a coded game. You do it right, you break the game, you don't do it right, you get nerfed weakling. I've given my input on lichs for years, and you can search for lich threads that discusses so many aspects of it, including balance within this very game.

But now, I just say screw it. Go with "undead" and allow them all to be unique entities unto themselves by having a list of available undead feats (and you can check the new 3.0+ undead books for massive lists of these feats/skills). If they choose skills/feats that make them Lich-like, and want to call themselves a lich. Go for it. That way the staff can make it easier to balance, and anyone can be anything. Heck, a player could call themselves a vampire, and take day-light sensitivity, a charm ability, and a need to drink blood daily, or some stuff, but the staff can just say "You're Undead that picked 3 feats that a vampire has, but you're still just undead."

This way undead characters could all be different in a way, yet have the same benefits/detriments that fall under the category "undead", allowing for balance. Individual feats/skills would be balanced/handled on an individual basis. You wouldn't even need to limit it to a pre-req class like necromancers. A Warrior could become an undead, and take stuff to make him like a Death Knight if they wanted. Or whatever.

[Llaaldara]

This leads us to our next question: If anyone can become an undead, what would stop everyone from becoming an undead?

Ok so you become an undead, you get all these instant racial bonuses. Yay!

Then you get the flip side and the detriments of being undead. Ack! (a lot of these were listed above, no need for me to list them again).


If everyone runs around as an undead, what's to stop area makers from populating zones with priests to control/destroy them with unholy/holy powers? (Oh wait, most zones already have lots of these!) Players with all undead groups would get ripped to shreds. I don't know about you, but trolls in this game don't like fire, and this is basically what we're looking at on a grander scale considering there are more priest mobs in the game then fire spewing mobs and troll players.

So taking a que from Evils, you'd want to have mixed groups, living and undead, especially if it took a living PC priest the ability to break control of a mob controlling an undead. Do you really want a couple of lich's in your group suddenly casting rot on your party?

Do you really want to give up eating/drinking/breathing/criticals to take x2-x3 dmg from every priest mob? I doubt everyone would jump on the undead bandwagon.

[Lilira]

Therein lies the problem. They need to be powerful, but they can't. The second you make lichs powerful, like they should be, they become an imbalance to the game. Once you have a truly more powerful class, everyone starts making them, and then you have a game full of them, and then nothing is hard, and everything is easy and changes changes changes nerfs nerfs nerfs. It doesn't work.

Actually... I just had a thought.

What about instituting a grouping penalty on liches... but give them chunky power? Oh and the inability to group with another lich, just to balance things out. *grin* Wouldn't do to have 5 liches walking through a zone.

How often really would someone take a lich to zone if taking one meant not being able to take anyone good-alignment, anyone of an align restricted good class or can only take 9 other people because a lich = 6 players? Or limit how many pets they can have according to the size of group they are with...

But.. give them the pet powers to make it a trade. Keep the NPC hatred the same... actually I'd say up it. Make it so really only die-hards would WANT to play a lich and the population would be kept under control that way. This is not a class that should be simple to play.

Keep in mind, these are just ideas I'm tossing out... not really much rhyme or reason behind them. The lich should be one of those classes that people play cus they've been there done just about everything else. They should also be played by people who want to enjoy the RP hardships behind them. No I'm not saying you have to RP them, but I do think you should be willing to go with the RP reasons for the class being a huge pita to play.

I have nothing against the players of liches. My 19 alts exclude a lich and always will because I firmly believe that they just shouldn't be a player class. Given the fact that they are... well I believe they should have to suffer for their art... wait.. liches can't feel, so they don't suffer.. aw heck, you get my point.

[Thilindel]

so they should suffer for their power or what they have gained? If I understand that right, anybody that finishes Kerns, or other epic quests should suffer because they gain powerful items (true they don't innately gain power), but I'm not exactly sure what you mean.

If one puts enough time in to harness power (hell, even leveling yourself to 50 arguably is this type effort), they should be rewarded. In lots of campaigns, liches are seen together in 3.5 that I have observed at the mall's D&D books. I do think lich should NOT get vitality for a spell available. Their pets can't. Why should they (both as players or NPC.)

I'm also not sure they deserve res, but they need something as well to offset that :P Players who just personify power and skill, a.k.a. Lilithelle, can harness all facets of the game and make the most of any given situation. This skill typically is seen as the default potential or power of a class and items etc seem to get adjusted as a result. I'd hate to see groups of any class getting nailed for one single person's skill. Altho some see Pava and others as twinks, regardless, it's ingenuity that should be rewarded, but farming -and free handouts, can devalue items and zonemaker's intentions. Enough blabbing for me tonight :)

[Birile]

With all due respect, it's rather well-known that even the most difficult quests in the game are done on a very regular basis by power-gamers. So, as has been mentioned, simply increasing the difficulty of the Lich quest isn't going to keep everyone from running out and getting one if the class is changed to be too overpowered/twinky.

Yes, it takes a very special sort of person to be a Lich *now* but once you make it extremely overpowered every--and I do mean every--power gamer roaming around Toril will make one. How very special.

For such a great, unique class, there are still relatively few Liches in Toril compared to all of the other classes. I see that as a good thing. Yeah, they've been downgraded but they're still hella powerful. They're just not game-breakingly overpowered. I don't see that as a problem.

[moritheil]

* Inability to speak with many quest mobs
* Inability to shop at stores in most cities
* Limit 'touch' feat to uses per day, fear aura to only low level mobs

The first two are not a way to balance a class, those are a way to create constant complaints, or requests for Lich-loved/friendlyl locations. *veto*

As for the limitations on the frequency of powers (3rd *) so that they cannot be abused, but still keep in theme with the class, yes.

Those two things are not mutually exclusive. For example, making races dayblind guarantees complaints, especially from new players who did not realize during creation just how painful it would be to play a drow and try to explore the surface world. Yet dayblindness is and has been one of the things that keeps certain races balanced.

Insofar as I can see, giving up power for convenience and utility, or giving up the latter two for power, constitutes a legitimate tradeoff.

[Kegor]

Day blindness is not a good example of balance (unless you consider balance 85% goodrace and 15% evilrace). It is just another variation of el time sinko. However, if you manage to grow up this way and the end result is that you are able to walk anywhere, at anytime, as an ultra, it has at least served you to the best of its ability. RL days of playtime spent being able to do that, way too many.

[moritheil]

Day blindness is not a good example of balance (unless you consider balance 85% goodrace and 15% evilrace). It is just another variation of el time sinko. However, if you manage to grow up this way and the end result is that you are able to walk anywhere, at anytime, as an ultra, it has at least served you to the best of its ability. RL days of playtime spent being able to do that, way too many.

While I can accept your argument that being dayblind is so much of a hassle that it's currently not worth the gains, that in no way means that dayblindness is not a legitimate example of gaining increased power (drow int, for example) at the cost of horrendous inconvenience. As an aside, dayblindness is hardly the only reason people choose goodie over ebil. I have sat in VT and heard newbies complain that almost no evilrace chars are on when they are on. For better or for worse, the ebil pbase seems to keep slightly different hours than the goodie pbase does.

Many of the other suggestions above (from liches themselves, I might add) are time sinks. Increased XP costs to level? Inability to benefit from ress? Those are essentially nothing but time sinks and inconveniences. Inability to quest things personally or shop are inconveniences in a similar vein and actually make sense from an RP standpoint.

[Kegor]

While I can accept your argument that being dayblind is so much of a hassle that it's currently not worth the gains, that in no way means that dayblindness is not a legitimate example of gaining increased power (drow int, for example) at the cost of horrendous inconvenience. As an aside, dayblindness is hardly the only reason people choose goodie over ebil.

I realize that people choose goodrace characters more frequently for other reasons than that. It is a no-brainer these days really. But it is easy for me to say that more people would roll an ultra race character, or continue to play one, if this time sink were not an issue (even if more equals just 1 or 2 people). And on that line of thinking, it would also be easy to say that more people would play this mud if time sinks such as this were not an issue (even if more equals just 10-20 people).

So to summarize and get back on topic. Time sinks and annoying little hassles for liches or anyone else should be kept at a minimum for 2.0. I think we all can agree that games just aren't as much fun when you are staring at your screen muttering, not able to do anything except wait.

[moritheil]

Yes. That's how you know that time sinks represent a real inconvenience - when people are willing to forego power to avoid them. I see that you are against time sinks in general, which is a valid concern but, as you said, not particularly suitable for the lich thread.

The existing power balance scheme for evils is increased power at the cost of extra time sinks. Putting aside the question of whether or not the time/power tradeoff is balanced as is, it logically follows that when one asks for increased power, one must be prepared for the possibility of increased time sinks.

It might be better to discuss other ways to balance liches when the paradigm changes.

[moritheil]

Thilindel just pointed out in another thread that liches using potions might be a little silly. It's another possible realistic detriment for the list.