Pwipe Please

Discussion concerning the upcoming Toril 2.0 update as well as general 3.5 edition D&D discussion
Kegor
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Pwipe Please

Postby Kegor » Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:35 am

I used to be one of the many people that were against a player wipe. But after reading new player threads for so long about nobody being around thier level, etc, I am starting to think that it would be a very good thing.

It would be an even better thing, to promote it for the opening of 2.0. Advertise it for even up to a few months ahead of time for the desired effects. Everybody starting with nothing, the game is fun and lively again, people all have renewed goals and motivations.

I know the staff has said that there would never be a player wipe, but come on, it would be one of the best things to do in all logical standpoints of starting up a new game. Otherwise we are just going to have the all the same people with all the same attitudes, and the same new players feeling left in the dust from the start.

Despite all the people that said they would quit if there was ever a pwipe, I think over 90% of them would be full of it. They wouldn't be able to resist trying out 2.0 after playing Soj/Toril for so many years. They just don't want a pwipe cuz then they are not as l33t as they used to be all of the sudden .' I don't have time to level a new char' (You have some time, just not as much as you did, or wouldn't even be here at all). I say just this once, after months of advertising, open up a level playing field for everyone when 2.0 comes in. Then say no pwipe ever again.

Please don't take any polls if you see the logic of this idea. People are full of it and will say anything or do anything to avoid it, even if its the best thing that would ever happen to thier favorite game. So what if you won't have as many uber alts with uber eq anymore, you will still have your buddies. Well maybe not me for suggesting this, but it had to be said, and I see now that it would be a very good idea if it was done. :)
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Postby Drahken » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:48 pm

Surprised nobody has jumped in yet.

I don't think I'd want to see my efforts and nostalgic items I've collected vanish over night, but this got me thinking about an alternative.

If some kind of feature was implemented to give incentive to players to play new chars from the ground up it could have similar effects. Maybe something along the lines of 'hardcore' characters in Diablo2, perhaps with some kind of bonuses but with the negative of not being able to deck out your char in eq from other characters. Something like this would give established players a new challenege, while potentially opening up more grouping opportunities for new players. Just a random early morning thought.
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:13 pm

Pwiping isn't going to help. The reason no one low level is around is that everyone knows how to level really fast, even when they start a new character.

Pwipe now, and you'll have people back to 50 in a month. No gain.
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Postby Mertak » Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:02 pm

I realize it'll never happen, but I love the idea of a pwipe. The escalation of EQ has just been stupid. Seeing items that I worked at for monthes, zoning faithfully nearly every night with the guild now being sold on the auction for 100 plat, and sometimes not even being bid on! Last year's "l33t" gear not being worth pursuing, making yet another well written and fun zone redundant! I don't want to lose my characters, I'd miss them and all of their quested skills, spells and stuff. but I believe it would be good for the game.

For those who claim they don't have time to start a new char, or whatnot: Shev has promised us that 2.0 has specifically been designed to be more accessable to those of us with less time. I know that if there was a wipe, I'd never ever again have gear nearly as nifty as I have now, but I'd not only take the trade off to spur the MUD, I'd welcome it.

Just my thoughts, nothing to back it up, nothing that's any more correct than anyone else's, just how I see it.

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Postby Disoputlip » Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:22 pm

Someone suggested that instead of a pwipe then there should be something where you couldn't unlock your chars before you had gotten a new char 50.

I think something like that, but where all chars automaticaly got unlocked after mabye 4-6 months would be a good thing for Toril 2.0.

Especially because it would give a good introduction to the new system by playing it in the low-end game.
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Postby Nilan » Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:42 am

if this game pwipes i got better ways to spend my time.

i am against it

i put too much time into this game as is

nilan
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Postby Cirath » Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:31 pm

But, if you are just going to put more time into it anyway...
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Alternative

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:07 pm

What about deleting all characters save one, and keeping all eq on that character? That way people can choose their eq and character, but still keep some of their stuff to make the progression smooth.

Just a thought.
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Postby Ambar » Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:17 pm

I just think the majority of people would not be back, even with 2.0 looming nearer every day .... we all have the ability to pwipe ourselves, but the pbase is way too low these days to do a full pwipe .. How many people jump on when someone calls them for a zone, or log on after months of having rl issues and being able to play right then .. This would not be possibile with a pwipe .. As it is I can jump online and do things for a couple hrs, then log off .. When 2.0 comes in, I just wont be able to do that .. I dont know ANYTHING of d&d, so the mud itself will be new, let alone having to build classes and eq back up ..
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:19 pm

Once it goes 2.0 it's not the same game, anyway. They can pwipe if they choose and not break their word to not pwipe the old game. All they have to do is close down one night and reopen the next as a new game. Whether or not a small handful of people like it is rather a moot point. If you can't step back and see the positive impact a pwipe would have on the game as a whole, then you're not looking at the big picture. Keeping your personal stash intact is nice, but it's all just text, after all.

Unfortunately, I'm of the belief that there's been lasting damage done over the last few years that even a pwipe won't be able to undo. The first year after the pwipe will be great fun, but the game will spiral down at a much quicker rate than previously due to many factors. The rules are far more lax, the people attracted are those attracted to a looser and less intense atmosphere, there's practically no hook for the RP set left anymore, there's quest info posted everywhere so instead of taking months to figure out a quest everybody can follow the steps and just argue over loads until they get what they want. Any way you look at it, the game isn't offering the content that requires long-term commitment anymore. A pwipe is a short-term fix, but the term grows shorter with each progressive generation that the game retools itself for the short-term mindset.
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Postby Tasan » Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:10 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Once it goes 2.0 it's not the same game, anyway. They can pwipe if they choose and not break their word to not pwipe the old game.


I <3 Kelly.

Ashiwi wrote:Unfortunately, I'm of the belief that there's been lasting damage done over the last few years that even a pwipe won't be able to undo. The first year after the pwipe will be great fun, but the game will spiral down at a much quicker rate than previously due to many factors. The rules are far more lax, the people attracted are those attracted to a looser and less intense atmosphere, there's practically no hook for the RP set left anymore, there's quest info posted everywhere so instead of taking months to figure out a quest everybody can follow the steps and just argue over loads until they get what they want.


I'd rather have that year of fun than the 6 months we will have. A lot of those things could be addressed and seen to as well assuming they are given enough feedback about the problems to make them right again. Quests need to be overhauled if there is a pwipe, no excuses. Not quite sure why we are unable to come up w/ a unique quest for everyone that is ~balanced for the more coveted items in the game.
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Postby Lilira » Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:39 pm

Ashiwi wrote:The rules are far more lax,


Majorly agree.

Ashiwi wrote:the people attracted are those attracted to a looser and less intense atmosphere,


agree

Ashiwi wrote: there's practically no hook for the RP set left anymore,


Disagree, you just have to use the resources avail and show up when there are events scheduled.

A pwipe would toss everyone on the same level.. the reason its so easy to level up new chars is the abundance of extra gear sets. Sure, you might have started from scratch, but the guy you chose to tank for you might not have. A pwipe would eliminate EVERYONE's gear making it so we all have to work to re-gear and level. Not interested really.
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Postby Gurns » Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:27 pm

I'm all in favor of a pwipe. It would solve some problems temporarily. It would give the imms some time to solve those problems more permanently, before they become problems again.

And it would help us keep newbies, who would finally have folks to group with. Newbies who could learn about playing the game by grouping with experienced players. Newbies who could get the thrill of earning better equipment, each step of the way, rather than being handed stuff that they won't even see for 40 levels.

I fear that without a pwipe, we won't have enough critical mass at the low levels to keep newbies.

For those that can't stand the thought of losing their high level characters, I think TorilMUD could be kept up and running on a different port, with no pwipe. Minimal or no maintanence. And run Toril 2.0 on the cmud-advertised port. Maybe start with a couple months of converted high-level characters, to give a full test of 2.0, but then pwipe 2.0 and start fresh.

People say that will split the pbase. So what? On the 2.0 side, if people are still learning it and leveling up, they'll be in 5 or 7 person groups, not 15. A slightly smaller pbase there won't matter for a while. And as I said, I think that's the way to keep the newbies we get, since they'll get to group and get the satisfaction of actually earning their gear.

As to Ambar's concern:
Ambar wrote:As it is I can jump online and do things for a couple hrs... When 2.0 comes in, I just wont be able to do that .. I dont know ANYTHING of d&d

Actually, logging on for 30 minutes or a couple of hours and finding stuff to do is easier at the low end, new mud or old. You don't have as many skills or possibilities, so there's not as much you have to know or deal with. You can group with 2 or 3 folks and do useful things, rather than waiting for 12 or 15. And there are plenty of places to go, lots of low level zones that you've probably been to, but haven't seen in 5 or 10 years. If you're like me, that means they are almost new! :)

As for the pbase on the TorilMUD side of the split...well... I stopped playing the high end, because for me, there's no game at the high end. It's all hack n' slash n' twink. It's only about being the most overpowered player you can be. It's only about getting the best gear, if a zone doesn't have the absolute best gear then "it's not worth doing". It's only about doing the zone in the easiest, fastest way, even if that means sending the rogue to solo half of it.

Me, I think that's boring and limited. Yet plenty of people on the BBS seem to be saying that's the game they want. So for folks who like that, leave TorilMUD running. And if "the only game is at the high end", as some proclaim, then those that stay on TorilMUD should have no problem keeping enough people to play with.
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Postby Kegor » Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:39 pm

Gurns wrote:For those that can't stand the thought of losing their high level characters, I think TorilMUD could be kept up and running on a different port, with no pwipe. Minimal or no maintanence. And run Toril 2.0 on the cmud-advertised port. Maybe start with a couple months of converted high-level characters, to give a full test of 2.0, but then pwipe 2.0 and start fresh.

People say that will split the pbase. So what?


It would split things. Not horribly bad I don't think, but still what would be the point? I think pwiping and saying good bye to Toril as we know it now would be the best thing as we move forward into 2.0. This would allow for all available resources (machine, staff, and players) to be soley dedicated to the new MUD, thus improving it's chances for greater success.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:57 pm

I want to try playing Toril 2.0 as a Wizard.

But I have NO INTENTION of playing the game if it's impossible to find a low or mid-level group. I'm loving the idea of 2.0, but I have better things to do in my life than try to struggle a mage to 50 solo.

Since I have nothing to lose, it's not really my place to call for a pwipe... but if you're expecting old players to return, and you never log in on any character below level 50, don't expect them to stick around long enough to zone with you.
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Postby Shevarash » Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:33 pm

I won't deny that pwiping for 2.0 is an attractive solution and something I've really seriously considered.

The problem is, its just too easy of a solution. Something's broken, so let's just erase it and start over? It would make it easy on me, but not so much on the player base who has to spend time re-equipping and re-leveling themselves. And as many people have already said, there is no guarantee that we won't be right back at this same point in a year or two. In fact, its rather likely that we would be without fixing the underlying problems first.

The bottom line is, its going to be difficult to fix some of these issues - such as overabundance of equipment, inflated economy, etc - but I'm comitted to trying. I think its the right thing to do, and pwiping will only be a possibility if all other options have been exhausted first. We're not even close to being there yet.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:42 am

I think the issue is we need a viable game that's something other than expexpexpexp from 1-40. We need viable zones for all levels, starting at like level 10. Little zonelets people can go in ,and actually get gear from. Hell, start tossing the transient flag on items again and get rid of them some that way.

But really, people would enjoy the game more and play it for what it is if we had something to do other than xp till we got that key spell or ability needed for X zone, or that level/hp needed for X zone.

2.0 will help slightly but not enough, it's not a code issue per se, it's more an areas issue. Sure we have cemetery, but what else? and we don't truly have any actual low level zone encounter things. They could be level restricted entry much like cemetery is as well to make sure high level people just don't go in and farm.

Stupid idea? I'm not sure, but it's one i'd be more in favor of than a pwipe right now. It's a round about argument. If you want a pwipe, ok, pond all your crap and delete and reroll and play from then on. Oh wait, there's no low-midlevel game, it's just exp.

That's the primary issue. If they wiped prior to 2.0, I wouldn't be back. If they wiped when 2.0 was released, i'd try it out and see from there but wouldn't be playing much at all

shrug, my opinion. Feel free to bash it/ignore it. But that's what I believe the issue is. We'd have more staying power with people were that the case. We need a game that starts MUCH lower than it does now. But as I said, that's an areas issue, not a code one per se.
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Postby Thilindel » Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:24 am

As long as we can keep our quest spells AND super badass eq that took forever to quest can be made to be x lvl in order to use, I wouldn't really mind a pwipe. I don't _want_ one, but whateva!

I'm also all for no need to quest spells :P Assuming the book I read is right, you don't quest spells for the real game.
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Postby amolol » Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:38 am

one fix for the eq problem we have is add level restricts. a level 1 rog should not be running around in level 50 gear with a khanjari

second fix remove said khanjari

third idea for fix overhaul some of the procs on items tone them down a bit make it a bit more challenging. zoning on most levels anymore is easy. im not saying its spank proof but it has gotten to easy.

a pwipe might not be the right fix but what about half a pwipe? drop everyone to level 30 then do a level based eq wipe all gear with level 35 plus flag on it... gone and yes im one of those guys that has worked for years refining my set to suit me exactly and give me what i need to keep up with the "top dogs"

im sure that these ideas wont ever be implemented and will be compleetly torn apart by those who dont agree but its my 2c
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Postby Lilira » Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:46 am

Thilindel wrote:As long as we can keep our quest spells AND super badass eq that took forever to quest can be made to be x lvl in order to use, I wouldn't really mind a pwipe. I don't _want_ one, but whateva!

I'm also all for no need to quest spells :P Assuming the book I read is right, you don't quest spells for the real game.


No but in the real game you can create your own spells, depending on the DM, FIND the really powerful ones past a certain level... even if its just going to a school and paying uber bucks to learn a couple spells...

Quest spells on mud balance out with book stuff.
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Postby Sarell » Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:40 am

At the moment I schedule times to log on and zone. I wouldn't schedule time to log on and exp period. I think there are many people in the same boat. Maybe exp will be fun on Toril2, but I doubt it will be as fun as zoning with the characters I already have personally.

Secondly, hypothetically if you did pwipe, Most arn't going to be sitting around playing newbie helper on the way to 50. I imagine the same thing would happen every other time there has been a pwipe. People would form small cliques, level up fast at the exclusion of others. It's not because they are not generous people or anything, it's just the most efficient way to get into the high end zones that area writers have put some real work into.

I think the reason there isn't lots of mid level playing has nothing to do with the time the mud has been up. It's the number of players, overall, period. The game has been top heavy as long as I have played. Most people of the handful that are on now are afk anyhow, and they just choose to be afk with their 50. If they roll a lvl 20 and be afk it makes no difference. With such a smaller pool to draw from in a competitive leveling up environment, I think new players would be even further excluded.

On gear limits, it's been discussed at length many a time. Summary, some people like to use their hard earned gear on a new character, some call it twinky then go and do it aswell. I have leveled up two character in the last couple of years without putting any fancy gear on them. It didn't slow me down particularly much. Might slow down a solo rogue a tad. But only a tad.

I think a pwipe would be fun if there were a LOT more players perhaps. Start some competition. As it is most people would just get disheartened because of the wipe, or at being pwned by not being in the limited buffing up groups, and leave I believe.

Alternately, everyone would just level up in DS then do spob 200 times since there would be no point in going to any old zones for gear when you can get top end spob gear naked.

Overall I think a better solution is to make a worthwhile eq sink. Make eq sell for plat in shops, and make freakin' cool guildhalls cost plat, if you want to foster a competitive environment without slapping everyone in the face.
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:58 pm

Hmm. Soo... ok, let me get this straight.

Whenever a thread comes up about making the game easier on new players, you guys throw a shitstorm of protest. We can't give newbies a light source, or put mage flame on the bard spell list, or make it easier for mages to reach level 5, because then newbies won't LEARN TO PLAY and they'll just end up big ol' level 50 dumbass noobs.

See here's the thing. Toril 2.0 is going to wipe your character and give you an entirely new set of skills and spells. You will, in essence, all be gigantic level 50 noobs with no idea how to play your classes.

Soo... logically, because the Toril elite are so insistent on making sure EVERYBODY has to grind through excruciatingly boring exp from 1-40 to make sure they LEARN TO PLAY their classes, it should only follow that you support the pwipe. Because then you can LEARN TO PLAY properly.

Right?

Right?
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Postby Grumdikanikus » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:36 pm

Pwipe BAD in my opinion...... Unless you can make it optionial. I don't want to start my characters over. I have put a lot of extra hours in my characters to get them as crappy as they are and I am happy about it.

I would be in favor of a EQ Wipe though. Since I have never been big on zoninga and I have never made enough money to even think about buying some of the dippy equipment that is in auction now.

The so called "l337" will still know how to play better than me and still hit level 50 before I will anyway and I'm 47th level.

EQ wipe would let the people learn the ropes fast enough to requip but not punish the people who aren't as good.


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Postby Tasan » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:47 pm

Shevarash wrote:but not so much on the player base who has to spend time re-equipping and re-leveling themselves.


Correct me if I'm wrong kemosabe, but isn't this the point of the game anyhow? Guess I must have missed the overall intent of the game.

Bottom line: Quests and zones designed to "defeat" the EqCalc have made equipment too good for too little effort. When a quest is shiny and new and someone has to spend time figuring it out, that is the only time it is possibly worth the reward. The same goes for a zone.
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Postby moritheil » Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:45 pm

Ragorn's post demands additional commentary.

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Postby Latreg » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:18 pm

again let's look at some facts

1. the low/beginner part of the game is slow (without pleveling gear)

2. exp is a grind, the more people in group the less exp.

3. more people have knowledge about quests, there for more quest items in the game.

4. more people know how to check for and defeat rares, there for more of that gear in the game.

5. there is no middle game, so the zones for that gear are left untouched.

a pwipe would not fix any of these problems. If there was a way to make the first 40 levels fun people would make alts and not plevel them. I certainly don't have a character of every class or every race. I wish I had lots of ways to make those levels more fun but I'm just not that creative.
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Postby Tral » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:00 pm

What makes this game fun?

Typing eq or look me to see what gear you've got?

Looking in your super bag/sack/hole etc. to see how much more you've got?

Or is it the people? If you can find time to log in now and zone, then you can find time to log in and group with folks for exp. Ok... How about this idea?

Instead of having such a problem with sharing exp for a group kill, how about fixing that problem? Make exp not necessarily easier for a group, but just make it less hard.

For instance... 4 members of a group are level 1-20; instead of giving each member 25% of the exp, give each member of a group roughly 50% of what they would've gotten from that mob solo, or even 75% exp for the mob. Don't make it so difficult to group exp and it'll be bearable. There will of course need to be some sort of algorithm figured in otherwise you'll have groups of 20 doing dockies and gaining 3 levels per kill :p

I don't know that a pwipe is the RIGHT answer, but I would support it. I think it would make things more interesting again.

I can't wait to get in a group doing IC Vault again for the first time :p

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Postby Shevarash » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:37 pm

Note: As mentioned before, the experience system has been completely rewritten for 2.0, with a focus on encouraging group experience and decreasing time-sinkage.

I think you will find this new system much more appealing when you get the urge to create a new character.
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Postby Gormal » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:35 pm

I'm all for a level playing field. I think that a pwipe would've helped a while ago, but now things are pretty far gone. I would really love to see the economy stimulated again, but everyone has everything they could ever want and there's no way that equipment ever leaves the game.

Since playing WoW, the whole level-restricted and soulbound items thing doesn't bother me in the least. There's still plenty of trading going on, and you can always sell armor to a shopkeeper for a decent amount of cash (unheard of on Toril).
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Postby moritheil » Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:26 am

I'm not sure what constitutes a decent amount in the current Toril economy, but there are quite a few armor items that can be sold at shops for over 1k plat.

It's interesting to see that people really want an economy, but they also tend to balk at paying high prices for items such as the wolfsbane potion or dimensional vault. Perhaps if most zones had entry fees platinum would be less abundant, but I'm hesitant to suggest that because at this point in time that would just serve to kill off zoning.

Tral mentioned the joy of newbies doing things like IC Vault . . . which brings me to another point. Many of the changes done to old zones to make them more challenging and more difficult to twink also served to make them even more difficult for newbies to do blind (that is, without much foreknowledge of the fights and layout.) I had a rough enough experience leading (blundering through) Vault my first time; I don't enjoy thinking about how much worse it might have been had the current version been in place.
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Postby Cap'n Touk » Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:20 am

Ponderings from a defunct old dwarf..

Being able to sell zone equipment for cash and using that cash on guild halls sounds like an amazing idea.

There are lots of low-mid, and mid level zones, but 2 things (atleast 2) prevent then from being done. #1 Why do them when you can just XP past them and get better equipment in real zones. #2 There aren't enough mid-level people to form even a small 5 man? group. Now #2 is only going to be solved by more newbies *crossing fingers on new CMUD icon* but for #1 I can think of 2 solutions.

First of make zones reward more XP then your standard XP grind zone. They're more dangerous, require more skill, and more teamwork, it seems obvious that you should get more XP from them. This should be seperate from the equipment reward so that it would draw everyone of that level to doing it. "I already have twinked out equipment so the gear from zone X isn't worth my time, BUT, I'll be getting better XP and it'll be more fun, so sure I'll join your group."

Second, I think a very strong move in areas would be to move items around or change stats on a couple key items so that each zone has a best in game item. So what if Skerttd-Ghul is easy.. or Vault.. or Gith. Put the best mage earring in Vault, and the best warrior leggings in SG, etc. etc. That way the zones would ALL have some useful reason for doing them.

Every single zone gets boring after you've done it 3, or 10, or 50 times.. depending on your level of A.D.D.... (I think I'm around 3). We should be encouraging different zones every day. And don't say "oh but GF is way harder so it should have better earrings", because the solution to that, as we have seen, promotes doing only 2-3 zones.. ever.

The way I see it - we have 16? different slots for equipment, and 2 types of player (caster/melee) = 32 "best for that tier" items. If every zone is only allowed to have 1 "best item", then that's 32 viable zones at any tier, not 2 or 3. Even if it's 1 caster & 1 melee item per zone that's still 16 viable zones.

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Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:33 am

I would just like to point out that there are players on this mud who actually do care about their characters. It may not stand to reason to many of you who are merely interested in the latest and shiniest piece of equipment - but some of us have emotional attachments to who our characters are and how they got there.

To be here as long as some of us have been means that either we're here to continually compete for the latest and greatest, or that we stay because we want to.

Many of us have spent hours just writing about our characters, other characters, and the adventures shared together. Every character is a story (even you competitive players). Many of those stories sure, are just hanging out with friends xping, zoning, etc., etc., but many characters still have more to their stories.

Times of love and loss, danger, excitement, confusion and worry, relief and exasperation.

When I log on as Teflor, I log in with pride. It's not a sense of accomplishment, not that I took him to 50 and somehow slapped a half decent set of gear on him. I played him as if he were a real person, with his own thoughts and feelings. He was at times irrational, angry, saddened, but he was also at times ectatic, jubilant, and meditative. He, unlike I, never quit at anything or gave up hope on anyone.

And in a way he was a friend of mine. Strong in the game, as he was in my mind - but never so strong that once in a while a giant blob monster would come by and smack the living crap out of him.

Is his story complete? Well, maybe. But not all of them are.


While some of you talk of deleting the characters as a way of fixing the game, I see a measure of incredible loss. Could I remake him? Yeah.

But that's another story entirely.
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Postby Tasan » Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:51 am

teflor the ranger wrote:Could I remake him? Yeah.

But that's another story entirely.


You are going to be forced to remake him when the new system is finished. I fail to see how a pwipe suddenly diminishes your character's story anymore than resetting stats/skills etc.
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Postby Sarell » Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:18 am

Tasan wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:Could I remake him? Yeah.

But that's another story entirely.


You are going to be forced to remake him when the new system is finished. I fail to see how a pwipe suddenly diminishes your character's story anymore than resetting stats/skills etc.


Because if I have to sit in CM for 10+ 50+ characters I will become lifeless and brain dead taking my characters and their l33t egos with me. I wouldn't even think about going near a pwipe until I SEE exp fixed.

Toril 2 will not be a completely new experience. Druids in sojourn2 were a sort of new experience aswell. But Verarb, Lilithelle, Sarell, and Gordex were the ones who were zoning everyday after a month. Were these newbs? I think not.

Here's an example that Toril2 code wont address. Areas. I love my kern collar. Do I want to spend hundreds of hours checking if a werewolf loaded because we are now playing Toril2? No thank you.'

If I can find time to log in to zone I can find time to log in to EXP? That's just stupid. I could. But I wouldn't because I don't seek out sitting watching my character kill duergar scouts for hours on end. The fun of zoning stimulates conversation and antics more than exping I find.

Touk's suggestions are good, solid, sensible, and rehashed. Many times have we suggested loading a 5% REALLY SHINY diamondine earring.
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Postby Marthammor » Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:59 am

Sarell wrote:Many times have we suggested loading a 5% REALLY SHINY diamondine earring.


And since no one does CC with any kind of consistency, how would you ever know if such an earring didn't already exist?
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:51 am

Marthammor wrote:
Sarell wrote:Many times have we suggested loading a 5% REALLY SHINY diamondine earring.


And since no one does CC with any kind of consistency, how would you ever know if such an earring didn't already exist?


That's the kind of information people would need to kick them in the ass. The changes that don't get documented used to tick people off :P So if that's the case, possibly let someone know in the news? :P
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Postby Lilira » Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:50 pm

Tasan wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:Could I remake him? Yeah.

But that's another story entirely.


You are going to be forced to remake him when the new system is finished. I fail to see how a pwipe suddenly diminishes your character's story anymore than resetting stats/skills etc.


I've already been putting lots and lots of thought into what skills/feats will be used for my characters that will still pretty much allow them to remain themselves. If there isn't a way to do it, then I'll do what most of the heavy RPers do and make up a reason. *grin*

After all the characters I've rolled and leveled, I still only have one level 50 character. Why? Because after all the hours I put in to get them to that 10th circle, I just get exhausted when it hits and don't want to do it anymore. I have a level 49 enchanter. I've gotten her from 48th to mid 49th doing very little in the way of actual xp. I've been having more fun using her as my plat farmer, or smiting things on Air ship to do some quests. So depending on when T2.0 comes in, she may or may not be level 50 by accident. *laugh*

I still feel the exhileration of reaching that last spell circle each time, though I've almost decided that I'm done leveling casters for now.
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Postby Tral » Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:02 pm

Sarell wrote:...If I can find time to log in to zone I can find time to log in to EXP? That's just stupid. I could. But I wouldn't because I don't seek out sitting watching my character kill duergar scouts for hours on end. The fun of zoning stimulates conversation and antics more than exping I find...


Didn't get a chance to really portray my thoughts here... was typing this while at work and on a limitied time frame...


I guess my point is more along the lines of... If grouping exp were better, you'd get those oppurtunities to get exp while zoning... Yeah, the uber eq isn't going to drop until much later, but if the zones were created in a sense that a lvl 20 party gets lvl 20-30 gear then it's beneficial to the members, fun (zoning), and rewarding in the sense that when a zone is completed, you actually gained 20-50% on your next level.

I do agree with you Sarell... if you've got a few hours to log in @ night, it's much nicer to go on a run (even if it is a low level run) than it is to sit in one area doing mindless exp. My hope is that the exp will come from doing zones. Get a higher level, go to a harder zone, get better exp from those harder mobs along with better eq.

-tral
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:10 pm

Marthammor wrote:
Sarell wrote:Many times have we suggested loading a 5% REALLY SHINY diamondine earring.


And since no one does CC with any kind of consistency, how would you ever know if such an earring didn't already exist?

Without prior information, I can't see anyone getting motivated to check, recheck, and re-re-re-re-recheck old equipment from old zones on the off chance that something got stealth upgraded without a news item.
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Postby Tasan » Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:26 pm

Sarell wrote:Here's an example that Toril2 code wont address. Areas. I love my kern collar. Do I want to spend hundreds of hours checking if a werewolf loaded because we are now playing Toril2? No thank you.'


So bring up a better way to do rares. Sitting here and complaining about things that take a bunch of time to quest is a stupid argument against a pwipe. If the underlying problem of too much equipment being in the game isn't addressed in some way, the game will continue to deteriorate. I love all the stuff I worked hard for too, but it's all devalued to crap now.

If a major overhaul was done in areas, it _might_ alleviate some of the issues, but all the equipment that is already in the game won't just disappear overnight.
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Postby Tasan » Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:28 pm

Ragorn wrote:upgraded without a news item.


Largest problem in the game for years. The areas sphere changes stats willy-nilly and barely ever bothers to say something about it. If you change the stats on 1 item by lowering it 1 ss, say so.
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Postby bawog » Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:31 am

Well considering a pwipe would be a double edged sword I will post both the pros and cons for this topic in my opinion.

Pros:

1. Would give a chance for everyone to be equal and eliminate "elitism" or the verteran players that have 10 level 50 alts with pleanty of eq to go around.

2. This would also give us older players a chance to experience the older zones or TorilMUD.

3. Would be ALOT easier for the coders to pwipe and eliminate the coding of trying to code the new items to coexist with the current items that we have at level 50.

4. Perhaps would bind together some new players with the older ones, being as we are all level 1.

Cons:

1. Would discourage older players that have worked hard to earn "top end" items, and perhaps lure them away.

2. Also would force them to re-xp the 50 different alts that they may have.

3. They would comingle with their current buddies or guildmates and run through and leave the newbies behind. (As said above in other posts)

4. The MUD itself would collapse due to the lack of players wanting to put the time back into even leveling their main!

In conlusion, Toril 2.0 in my opinion will be both good and bad for the MUD. GREAT for the people wanting to learn Toril as a new rebirth, and bad for those that are stubborn and not wanting to do so. I personally believe that a pwipe with 2.0 will be the WORST thing that anyone could do, because some players have put SO much time into their characters, in terms of skills, equipment, and making friends along the way. However in terms of why the equipment is the way it is is simple. As new areas come in the other (older zones) will be visited less and less, because there are better items in the game, but *shrug* thats just me. Sorry for the rant, but just throwing my two cents in the mix.
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Postby Marthammor » Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:51 pm

03/02/05 [Cyric] Random Areas Changes
- Yes we're hard at work on converting and bringing in Homeland zones, but we're not
forgetting our old zones at all! About 20 minor changes introduced today with 2
new super-rare items added to venerable older zones. Enjoy.


Granted, that says nothing about which items or which zones, but it should have had people looking I'd think.


And to stay on topic, I'm on the fence about a pwipe. It would solve some problems while creating others. Of course, most of the problems it would solve would be temporary and would only be a bandaid, which is what 2.0 is trying to get rid of.
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Postby Gormal » Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:01 pm

I don't think that people calling a pwipe a band aid is accurate at all. A pwipe is a chance for the staff to get things right. As long as a new system is in place to take equipment out of the game, and stimulate the economy, its not a band aid at all; its the solution to our collective woes.
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Postby Grumdikanikus » Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:17 pm

If you want to stimulate the the economy and balance the world, the do an equipment wipe. If you do a pwipe, then you just postpone the balancing of skills in the new game until later. If you leave the characters, you can start doing intitial balancing with the current character set. Though they won't be decked out with all the "Sweet" gear.

I would again be welcome for an EQ wipe but I don't think a Pwipe is the way to go.

Grum
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Postby Birile » Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:47 pm

Grumdikanikus wrote:If you want to stimulate the the economy and balance the world, the do an equipment wipe. If you do a pwipe, then you just postpone the balancing of skills in the new game until later. If you leave the characters, you can start doing intitial balancing with the current character set. Though they won't be decked out with all the "Sweet" gear.

I would again be welcome for an EQ wipe but I don't think a Pwipe is the way to go.

Grum


Who's up for lots of SPOB runs? :D
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Postby moritheil » Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:57 pm

Tral wrote:I guess my point is more along the lines of... If grouping exp were better, you'd get those oppurtunities to get exp while zoning... Yeah, the uber eq isn't going to drop until much later, but if the zones were created in a sense that a lvl 20 party gets lvl 20-30 gear then it's beneficial to the members, fun (zoning), and rewarding in the sense that when a zone is completed, you actually gained 20-50% on your next level.


The point we seem to be missing is that most lowbie zones actually DO give level 20-30 gear. Furthermore, level 20-30 gear is trash in the present economy, and that's why those zones never get done. It's probably easier for lowbies to just farm plat and buy level 35-45 gear off other players instead. After all, dying sucks at low levels, and the basic idea behind zoning is that someone is going to die in the process of getting the zone done.

Eq inflation has made us forget what truly constitutes level 20-30 gear. No one level 20+ would really want to wear a tiny silver ring now, but right after the last wipe those things were hot items, and groups of 7-8 people would race to southern WD to get them. What is considered competitive or even acceptable gear is subject to inflation, and zones themselves (particularly lowbie zones) are usually not rewritten to keep up with inflation.
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Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:49 pm

Same arguments, different day.
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Postby Demuladon » Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:35 am

moritheil wrote: level 20-30 gear is trash in the present economy


You blame the economy, I blame the Equipment Calculator.
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Postby Tasan » Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:04 pm

You blame the Equipment Calculator, I blame the writers who abused it.
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