Pwipe Please

Discussion concerning the upcoming Toril 2.0 update as well as general 3.5 edition D&D discussion
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Postby torkur » Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:10 am

1) I've been through 3 wipes here. Killing $%^&ing sparrows at TP was fun for 15 minutes, the FIRST time. Unless my new 2.0 level 1 mage has a 1d4 dagger with blinkies that ignites the incendiary clouds from my butt, it won't be again. And given I'll miss 90% of the time at piercing too, how will this not grow old for everyone who's already done it?


2) If I have to redo everything I had just to get to the level I am at again, am I going to actually play nightly and enjoy it or push through to see the "new" stuff? If I have to zone to survive and survive to zone, will I take Touk for my tank or will I take Lil' Johnny? NOONE CAN RES ME IF WE'RE ALL LEVEL 20. If I only have 2 hours a night to play now which will I bring then? When Lil' Johnny screws up and I die 3 times- resulting in having to relevel because noone can res- will I take him tomorrow night? And when every major zone takes 3x as long without the eq and l33t players to back it up, which then? I don't see many of you jumping on the 8 hour evilrace GF runs......


3) Say nearly everyone who knows it and won't redo things quits or doesn't have time to redo their _years_ of work, are these "new players" going to take the time to learn which "a map" from the 56,000 rooms and 12,000 items is the right item for the random, obsure, possibly aggro mob to do step 4 of the 500 part quest to get the res spell to do any decent zone in the game? Personally, I can't even get the teenagers that work for me to STFU about "ghost-riding" their damnable cars, let alone put in THAT much effort in a game without pictures.


4) Torilmud is not "hardcore" and will not attract new, younger hardcore gamers. Gaming skill levels have progressed WAY to much in the last 10 years to still use that term here. Halo2 attracts new hardcore gamers, not a mud. If I can eat a sandwich, watch a movie, do my taxes, and take a dump all while zoning, it's not hardcore. The only zone that might be an exception is Tiamat and that involves hours of boredom (cring, pressing, and ressing) too.
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Postby Glorishan » Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:22 pm

Can't you all just imagine the opportunity a pwipe will create? C'mon, think of all of the opportunists who will open up shops in Scardale with the sudden influx of everyone on the mud showing up! Clearly a wipe is a must. Maybe not for that reason, but for every other good reason (want me to name some? No! You're not the boss of me!).
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Postby Tasan » Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:12 am

torkur wrote:1) I've been through 3 wipes here. Killing $%^&ing sparrows at TP was fun for 15 minutes, the FIRST time. Unless my new 2.0 level 1 mage has a 1d4 dagger with blinkies that ignites the incendiary clouds from my butt, it won't be again. And given I'll miss 90% of the time at piercing too, how will this not grow old for everyone who's already done it?


Did you miss all the threads about 2.0 containing a new combat engine etc.? How many of you people can possibly keep going back to the old arguments without having briefed yourself just a little on the changes in 2.0... honestly...

torkur wrote:NOONE CAN RES ME IF WE'RE ALL LEVEL 20.


How do you know what Resurrection will even do in the NEW game. How do you know what the penalties for dying will be? How do you know you even will die? If you have inside information, please spill it.

torkur wrote:And when every major zone takes 3x as long without the eq and l33t players to back it up, which then? I don't see many of you jumping on the 8 hour evilrace GF runs......


You wouldn't be jumping into doing zones like GF within the first few months... you'd get to do all those neglected zones between 20-40 that actually do provide entertainment, provided you haven't been gifted with 2 tiny flower rings and some izan's cast offs that no one wanted anymore. Also... can I just one more time mention New Combat Engire.

torkur wrote:4) Torilmud is not "hardcore" and will not attract new, younger hardcore gamers.


The current version might not be, but I doubt anyone can say anything about the new one yet. Btw, I have seen 3 completely new players that are putting in 2-3 hours a night here. Just something to consider.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:59 am

torkur wrote:If I can eat a sandwich, watch a movie, do my taxes, and take a dump all while zoning, it's not hardcore.


But is it hardcore if we manage to do all five at the same time? *writes more code for bot*
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Postby torkur » Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:29 am

Tasan


I'd respond to the rest, but it's just bull$h1t. Same world areas, still must have penalties for dying, same boring 20-40 zones I DID along side you beginning this wipe, and it's still text based, so can be scripted.
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Postby Shevarash » Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:45 am

You know what they say about assumptions.
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Postby Marix » Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:15 am

I fail to see the "value" which the previous posts have that mine was lacking...and Shev..you can't say "No offense intended" then follow it up with a statement that is definitely offensive :p.
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Postby Ragorn » Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:26 am

In D&D, Raise Dead is a 5th level non-quest spell. That puts it at 21 in the Toril world. So no, nobody will be rezzing you at level 20, but it won't be long :P
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Postby torkur » Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:28 am

Given the person arguing 2.0 will be perfect and "new" won't even bother to chant for zone groups now.......I can assume he'll be one of the many who isn't continuing the game, trolls the BBS, but states they'll take over for those of us who do and leave from a wipe.

I am excited about the changes, but if it's that engaging to kill little crap, there will be too much information to focus on for zoning. Ever play a DragonballZ mud? Having to choose when to kick, block, punch, etc and not being able to automate it is fine for 1v1, but not for 30 mobs. AI won't be so foolproof that it can't be studied and overcome and then it's business as usual in any zone.
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Postby Tasan » Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:48 am

Shevarash wrote:You know what they say about assumptions.
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Postby Sarell » Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:47 am

I find it incredible that so many people put their faith in Toril2 as being the perfect world. EQ changes failed, EQ calc failed. Until I see Toril2 and see that they have 'upgraded trophy downgraded tables' I'm not prepared to consider wiping my characters.

Thank god(shevvy) for Shevvy's humility in pointing out that perhaps toril2 won't fix EVERYTHING! Most people pushing for a wipe don't even play here and have no concept of the scope of things. The post that referred to bringing back god like characters for a couple of months then leaving made me laugh. They used Ragorn as an example. What level is Ragorn? Level 25 ranger or something?

Botef pointed out the following as bad things, alts and plat. If you have too much plat, staight out give it to me, I will spend it at a shop on things to improve my top characters and I can tell you now they arn't in the lower echelons. Alts are fantastic. We don't have many players and hundreds of times I have called on my enchanter or shaman so that we can just do a zone.

Why don't we have many players? It isn't because the game isn't fun. Certainly it could use work, but it is still one of the best games ever made. Most of the players I know that left have done so for family.

"Menzo Drow" who someone brought to us as an example of a fresh "even" start is the perfect example of clean slate theory demolished. The two most powerful menzo drow were the two most active players in Scions of Netheril.
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Postby Shevarash » Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:54 pm

Marix wrote:I fail to see the "value" which the previous posts have that mine was lacking...and Shev..you can't say "No offense intended" then follow it up with a statement that is definitely offensive :p.


I said "no offense intended to the original poster." To spell it out, I was expressing that your original sentiment was worth hearing, but the other participants of the thread quickly turned it into a flame fest.
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Postby Marix » Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:22 pm

Ah, ok. But what you actually said was " Please use one of the other pwipe threads. No offense to the original poster, but there is nothing of value in this particular thread. " See that nothing of value would include my original sentiment. Thanks for the clarification.
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Postby Shevarash » Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:20 pm

I should have said that there was no purpose in continuing the thread since it had devolved into flaming. The rest of the thread prior to that did indeed have value - that's why I locked it instead of deleting it.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:01 pm

Sarell wrote:I find it incredible that so many people put their faith in Toril2 as being the perfect world. EQ changes failed, EQ calc failed. Until I see Toril2 and see that they have 'upgraded trophy downgraded tables' I'm not prepared to consider wiping my characters.

Shrug, I don't see Toril 2.0 as being anything like a "perfect world." I see it as an exciting rewrite to the core engine that should make the game more fun to play. At the very least, it will make the game "fresh" for a while.

If you don't enjoy the process used to actually fight and kill mobs, issues of equipment inflation, zone decay, and economic collapse hardly matter.
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Postby Todrael » Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:08 pm

After my post, I realized that I had not said what my opinion was on a pwipe. Someone asked me to do so; here it is.

A pwipe is inevitable. It cannot be avoided, dodged, or prevented. It will happen. In the end, the mud will some day (a very long time in the future) be turned off. This could be considered the final pwipe. No game lasts forever. The only question about the pwipe is when, and why.

That should have been the real survey: do you want a pwipe when 1) Toril 2.0 comes in, 2) a comprehensive mud economy comes in, 3) guildhalls come in, 4) 75% of the mud population desires it, 5) other event/cause-please post your thoughts, or 6) when you pry my character from my cold, dead fingers.

It's my opinion that we should not pwipe when Toril 2.0 comes in. As Shev has stated, Toril 2.0 will not address on a long-term basis the main problems afflicting the mud which people feel a pwipe would help with: eq glut, lack of an economy, stale characters and a done-everything attitude, and all the other things that cause players to leave or only log on to complain.

It will certainly help with getting bored of your character, for a time, until people become familiar and comfortable in their new roles. It will likely extend the time it takes for people to get bored of playing at level 50 - and we'll still have the same zones, the same coins, the same huge stockpiles of eq to keep the crusty types around. As Shev said, we'll end up where we are now in another year or two.

I think a pwipe should happen when far-reaching changes are made to the mud post-2.0. Changes that directly address the issue of stagnation and accumulation. Both gods and players offer ideas on this on a regular basis: create a thriving economy, create eq and cash sinks aside from quests, put in racewars, create expansion packs, add new content on a regular basis (whole continents!), or make the mud more like WoW. In the end, it will take time and effort on the part of the staff to get to the core ideas that would create a truly sustainable game, and implement them to the best of their ability.

When they're confident that the game will be balanced moving forward, that the mistakes of the past are corrected, and that the mud will be a place where old and new players alike can thrive, /then/ I would request of them a pwipe.

Will people leave because of a pwipe? Yes. Will people come back to play because of a pwipe? Yes. Will new players prefer to come in before a pwipe, or after? More likely after, so long as the number of players holds up. Will there be anger, and praise, and prophesies of doom and likewise of salvation? Sure. In the end, we're all different people with different goals and lives.

We won't know the end result of a pwipe until we've been through it, and seen how it affects us, and our characters. Pain and loss can be motivators; they can drive growth and learning. As can new friends, and fresh environments. I might stop playing. Who's to say I'm the kind of player this mud wants for the future? Maybe 3 people will come to take my place. Or maybe I'll stay, and 3 new people will join. I don't know. I'm waiting to see what the staff offers, when they think the time is right.
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Postby Tasan » Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:27 pm

I agree completely. Hearing more over the weeks about 2.0, it is obvious that even Shev doesn't think this is that much of a game change. That whole sentiment leaves me thinking that it will just be another novelty; that we'll continue to wait for initiative to be taken in the areas sphere to fix the inherent game issues that have been created.
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Postby Todrael » Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:00 am

Tasan wrote:Hearing more over the weeks about 2.0, it is obvious that even Shev doesn't think this is that much of a game change.


I think that it's going to be a radical change. It's just not a change that will sustain the game for all eternity, and Shev knows that. It will, as he's said, provide a solid foundation for that future, which is just as important.
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Postby Shevarash » Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:02 am

I don't think that nor have I said it. This is massive change to the very core of this game and it has to be done before anything else.

There will be plenty of new things to keep everyone busy for awhile, but obviously they will get stale eventually if they're not followed by more content. Luckily, the whole point of this project is to fix the core game so that we can concentrate on delivering regular content and new game features to extend the life and playability of this MUD.
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Postby Jhorr » Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:32 am

I don't think a pwipe will attract more players. It never has before. I just don't think there are lots of people waiting in the wings tuning into us every now and then to see if we've had a pwipe. If there are, how do we know?

We should collect some data about new players and how long they stick around before we assume they all give up on the current game because it's top-heavy. How are we sure people aren't sticking around? Since we got the icon, I've noticed higher record number of players per boot.

With 2.0, there will be lots of new chars being rolled so maybe people will find enjoyment in the lowbie game again too.
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Postby Tasan » Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:47 am

Shevarash wrote:I don't think that nor have I said it. This is massive change to the very core of this game and it has to be done before anything else.

There will be plenty of new things to keep everyone busy for awhile, but obviously they will get stale eventually if they're not followed by more content. Luckily, the whole point of this project is to fix the core game so that we can concentrate on delivering regular content and new game features to extend the life and playability of this MUD.


No disrespect intended at all, the post was poorly worded. I merely read your sentiments here and see that there are new features being added that haven't been in and rewrites to the way some things work, however the game is still the same... you zone, quest or rp to whatever extent you feel. Just because the mechanics behind the scenes change doesn't mean the game is changing. You've stated that you don't feel this will fix the game which I believe many would agree with.

I understand the point of 2.0. What I don't understand is why the staff is choosing to not address the other problems in the game at least from the standpoint of giving the players feedback on their thoughts and overall goals. If 2.0 is a good starting point, why not begin to talk about plans for the rest of the problems? I don't feel it's ever too early to start talking about planned projects/changes and it would be good for someone other than you to step forward to talk about plans in other areas than code.

When 2.0 was first announced, I believe there was more of a feeling that the entire game was going to take on a new feel. The more I hear, the more I want to know how you plan to use 2.0 to move forward.

Basically... if 2.0 isn't the fix, what is? It's been a year and three quarters since the development forum saw a new post. How long will we wait for greater transparency to the game... another year, 2? Maybe longer? We are drawing new players with the icon, but are we retaining them? There have been great strides with this project(2.0) to give greater transparency, but we as a community need more. We need reasons to stick around and wait for these things to come down the line.

Thanks for posting another announcement btw.
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Postby flib » Tue May 15, 2007 5:25 pm

honestly.. when I think about it.. a pwipe really wouldnt be the worst idea ever.. Like.. alot of my best times.. I can think of.. is when like everyone was like around the same level.. theres alot of fun to be had.. when you can xp with most everyone. I don't know though.. I have put alot of time and effort into what my guys have now (even if i dont play much at all) but man.. that'd get me excited about like getting bark shields and polished steel bracelets.. I think that could rock. Theres a different sense of community right after a pwipe. like everyones equal. it's good stuff.
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Postby Botef » Tue May 15, 2007 8:13 pm

flib wrote:honestly.. when I think about it.. a pwipe really wouldnt be the worst idea ever.. Like.. alot of my best times.. I can think of.. is when like everyone was like around the same level.. theres alot of fun to be had.. when you can xp with most everyone. I don't know though.. I have put alot of time and effort into what my guys have now (even if i dont play much at all) but man.. that'd get me excited about like getting bark shields and polished steel bracelets.. I think that could rock. Theres a different sense of community right after a pwipe. like everyones equal. it's good stuff.


A lot of my disinterest in pwipe stems from what you just stated. I loved those first time experiences and hold them very dear, but at a certain point you begin to learn your way around and what is and isn't of value or importance. I honestly think, despite how great the memories are, that replaying all of that would bore me. I'd know whats around this bend in the tunnel, which mobs are aggro, which items are worth getting killed for a few times and which are not. That can't be reset with a pwipe, and while it would be cool to see everyone and everthing start on even ground I don't know if it could hold my interest. New combat systems and spells and class skills, all of that is fantastic and will suffice in keeping people happy for awhile - and maybe it will keep people happy enough to trudge back through the same steps of progression before they get bored. I'd agree that on many levels a pwipe is needed and inevitable but I fully believe that re-experiencing all these great memories would destroy a lot of the strong nostalgia I feel.

An example would be FFIII. I love that game so very very much, but after playing it countless times and in countless ways I find replaying the initial elements of the game so boring and uninteresting that I can hardly bring myself to start from square one when I know thats not where I want to start.

New beginnings are great and all but the replayability only last so long in my mind. Once you reach a certain point its hard to turn back and start anew. You know where you start, you know where you end (more or less), and instead of being an open ended and endless game it becomes a 'grind', like so many grinds before it, to get back to where you know you want to be. That for me plants the seed of doubt, the 'why am I doing this again?' instead of the seed I really want to sprout, the 'where do I go from here?'.
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Postby flib » Wed May 16, 2007 2:23 am

well.. when 2.0 does come out odds on i'll be starting something new.. because through the years ive never tried a few types.. and I really am itching to see how the fighter side of 2.0 pans out..
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Postby Dalar » Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:35 am

I hope they pwipe because of the amount of gear that is in game. I also hope htey don't make the same mistake and have half the zones drop a 1-2 stat variation of the same gear.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Zoldren » Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:35 pm

Tasan wrote:You blame the Equipment Calculator, I blame the writers who abused it.


I blame rogues. oh ya new unbalanced eq...

I about died when someone told me yesterday how the old l33t eq from a couple years ago is now low-mid level eq.......
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Postby moritheil » Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:45 pm

Zoldren wrote:
Tasan wrote:You blame the Equipment Calculator, I blame the writers who abused it.


I blame rogues. oh ya new unbalanced eq...

I about died when someone told me yesterday how the old l33t eq from a couple years ago is now low-mid level eq.......


That's a problem of the inflationary model of zonewriting - which, I'm told, has been abandoned . . .
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