Pwipe Please

Discussion concerning the upcoming Toril 2.0 update as well as general 3.5 edition D&D discussion
Tasan
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Postby Tasan » Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:08 pm

Marthammor wrote:2 new super-rare items added to venerable older zones. Enjoy.


Total number of zones in world: 300

Yeah, thanx for the "info". I'm out scouring the first 60 zones right now, trust me....
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Postby Eilistraee » Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:29 pm

Excellent initiative Tasan!
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:36 pm

Actually, the equipment calculator was a good idea for an equipment stat foundation. What areas really needs to do is use the calculator as a foundation for stats, then use human reasoning for balance before the game goes in. There's got to be somebody up there with enough game knowledge to be able to say "Ummmm, no."
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Postby Ifin » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:23 am

A game like Toril is based on obtaining levels and the best eq possible if you're an active player. Those players that say that eq doesn't matter at all etc. are only because they've been playing for a while and achieved satisfaction in those areas.

If the game changes but the ceiling doesn't in 2.0, then 1/2 the problem from current problems carry over, ie there's no more progression for the higher gamers (unless houses/guild halls are coming in too). It'll be just messing around with the new system, learning it, and then the game is back to as it is now.

I can see a middle-solution is nerfing all pre-2.0 zone eq. Re-ansi with the real stats 2.0 eq. I don't think the 80% zone eq is what people are attached to. Nerfing will give more incentive to explore and re-do zones in 2.0 for better eq, and re-up the ceiling while not stripping everything off current players. Then think of where the epic eq, the 10-20% items that people work hard comparitively in pre-2.0 fit in 2.0 world.

The idea of locking alts until you lvl a 2.0 char to a certain lvl is also pretty intriguing. There's much argument on the opposite side the Ragorn pointed out that lvl's should be reflective of knowledge, and how we complain about newbies getting it easier while still being newbs.

Everyone will basically be a noob in 2.0, so if I instantly get a lvl 50 char that's not reflective of my 2.0 skills. Boosting the low/mid pbase might also help initially and make older players familiar w/the new xp system etc. And so they work a lil bit and poof their other chars are unlocked is not such a bad compromise if we're not pwiping.

Edited: I don't think requiring a 50 char to unlock your chars is the only solution, but maybe just to 25 or 35. Most older players should grasp the new game by this stage, fulfilling the lvl<->knowledge debate. If the imms were also serious about promoting 2.0 on various websites etc., what we'll see is "some" influx of new chars, who might again be put off if they see a bunch of people already lvl 50 <-- something complained about before as well.

Sure people might lvl in cliques, but having everyone start fresh at least for awhile gives a better chance of MUD-wide integration and older players might even want to finish off their new chars with new met friends. The plvl'ers I know plvl like mad, but I've never seen anyone refuse to include anyone that's asked either. And if people do complain about lvl'ing just to 25/35 then it'll show that the newbie game is broken again.
Last edited by Ifin on Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Malvareth » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:49 am

I have trouble seeing how the current characters can be properly converted to a new engine without a great deal of trouble. I don't know just how much 2.0 will change the game, but my impression is that the fundamentals of just about anything class-based will receive a major over-haul. Then again, maybe it'll work - here are my thoughts:

In terms of personal achievements, I have very little to lose, and I can see some of the advantages of a pwipe. It'll both serve as a clean slate for an essentially new game, and temporarily deal with some game-breaking problems. It also would be better for new players, but it would need to be advertised properly or there won't really be any new players to see this advantage. It seems to me that we currently receive next to no new players who stick around and become part of Toril, and I know how little attention most people pay to a game that they don't play unless there's some appealing advertisements, and not just "we're making some changes, come check it out".

On the other hand, what we stand to lose in regards to the game as a whole is a lot more important than my few characters and unimpressive equipment. If a pwipe causes the loss of half the playerbase, and especially if new player integration fails, that'll probably mean the end of Toril. We're not quite at the end, but with a general maximum online number of around 70, it's not like we have a lot of leeway. I think everyone knows how hard it is for low-levels to form real balanced groups, how hard it is for evils to properly zone, and how many of the veteran players use the mud as little more than chat rooms. These problems could be the final straw if worsened, and I have no doubts that a pwipe will do just that (save for a temporary improvement of the lack of groups).

I don't think some temporary middle-ground is the proper solution. If the alternative to a pwipe is to force you to level a character to 50 before you can play your main characters again, how much are you going to join that grind? How many will just call it quits and leave? It's such a big gamble: risk losing everything and becoming yet another mud with a playebase of 12 who idle from work, or stick with what we have and at least know that most of the players will stay? It's not like mudding is fashionable or attractive for the new generation of online gamers, practically noone starts mudding these days and people are leaving muds constantly for various good reasons. We can't expect to gain new players on a regular basis without the kind of support that IRE Games have, or the unique niche that the select few remaining RPI-muds hold. Toril mud isn't special in any way other than sticking to the (A)D&D rules and theme. I wouldn't take any dangerous chances.
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Postby Tasan » Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:55 am

Malvareth wrote:Toril mud isn't special in any way other than sticking to the (A)D&D rules and theme. I wouldn't take any dangerous chances.


It is also one of the few that has really tried to stay true to the Forgotten Realms setting. Much more so than many of the other so-called "FR" style muds I've seen.

I don't understand why it would be a dangerous choice... the dangerous choice to me is sticking with the current trend, which is not having anything to do except Tiamat since nothing else is even close to rewarding. The mid-levels(and zones) have disappeared because there is nothing stopping someone from getting equipment from a zone designed for a higher level group. Players have way too much power now, rewards are diminished, people get bored and leave... We've watched it happen for 2 straight years now. Our guild roster is a testament to the absolute lack of upper level play. Everything comes down to a cleansing fire to purge the forest so new growth can begin.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:00 pm

The high end gamers will be requipped soon, and the middle game players lose the few shinies they have gained over the years .. the oldschool people who we call on for ever so often zoning will not be able to do that anymore, and I really dont see a huge influx of BRAND new people even with 2.0 .. Many of the people who have moved on dont even mud anymore, their real lives and jobs and families have taken over their mnudding interest, or they are now into the graphical games ..

I still stand by the statement if you want to wipe, delete your equipped chars!

Shev has already stated he doesnt want to wipe except as a last resort, and he feels that the last resort hasnt come, that there are many things to try yet ..

I just dont understand why the same arguments/discussions STILL go on after the mud's OWNERS have stated there will be a wipe only after they feel there is no other choice

are we trying to convince them or what?
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Postby Birile » Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:28 pm

Ambar wrote:are we trying to convince them or what?


Yes.
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Postby Latreg » Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:15 pm

Ambar wrote:I still stand by the statement if you want to wipe, delete your equipped chars!


why should the rest of us be forced into something that could and in some cases make us quit the game? If you think a wipe will help, wipe yourself!! That as always been and will always be a choice anyone can make. Make a guild where everyone has wiped out their characters and gear, or only hang out and group with same.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:06 pm

Latreg wrote:
Ambar wrote:I still stand by the statement if you want to wipe, delete your equipped chars!


why should the rest of us be forced into something that could and in some cases make us quit the game? If you think a wipe will help, wipe yourself!! That as always been and will always be a choice anyone can make. Make a guild where everyone has wiped out their characters and gear, or only hang out and group with same.


I think that's what she said :P She's not saying you're forced to do anything. She said if you want a wipe, go wipe yourself. Delete yourself. She wasn't saying a wipe :P which is what it sounds like you're saying.
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Postby Tasan » Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:02 am

Ambar wrote:if you want to wipe, delete your equipped chars!


You don't seem to get it.

NEW game. NEW style. NEW stats on eq. NEW mob AI.

THE GAME IS CHANGING. Why should we be importing godly characters into the new game?

The idea isn't "I'm bored and need a pwipe to have fun." It is "This mud needs a pwipe when it changes to an entirely new game".

Who freakin cares if people get reequipped in a few months time.. at least there are those few months where people would actually play, instead of now where people go off in groups of 2 by themselves and don't talk to the rest of the mud populace while they level up their billionth alt. Yay, what a fun game that is.
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Postby Kegor » Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:43 am

Couldn't have said it better myself. :)
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:43 am

Tasan wrote:
Ambar wrote:if you want to wipe, delete your equipped chars!


You don't seem to get it.

NEW game. NEW style. NEW stats on eq. NEW mob AI.

THE GAME IS CHANGING. Why should we be importing godly characters into the new game?

The idea isn't "I'm bored and need a pwipe to have fun." It is "This mud needs a pwipe when it changes to an entirely new game".

Who freakin cares if people get reequipped in a few months time.. at least there are those few months where people would actually play, instead of now where people go off in groups of 2 by themselves and don't talk to the rest of the mud populace while they level up their billionth alt. Yay, what a fun game that is.


Yeah. Band-Aids always fix massive, gaping wounds. I support it.
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Postby Latreg » Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:23 pm

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:I think that's what she said :P She's not saying you're forced to do anything. She said if you want a wipe, go wipe yourself. Delete yourself. She wasn't saying a wipe :P which is what it sounds like you're saying.


sorry it didn't come across right, but I was supporting what Ambar had posted.

As far as calling 2.0 a new game, imo just because the mechanics change doesn't make it a totally new game, the quests and zones will remain the same. In the past classes have been changed, some have even come and gone, as an example rangers wheren't wiped everytime they where changed. Remeber as it stands now all that time people have spent notching skills and rolling stats will all be for nothing. So half your character will be wiped out anyway. the only thing that will remain is your exp.
people might be more accepting of a wipe if they knew what the 2.0 exp system would be like. The current exp system blows and the thought of going through all that with my characters again would probably just make me find a new hobby. Now I have read that it won't be as bad as the current system but that's pretty vague at best.
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:58 pm

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:Yeah. Band-Aids always fix massive, gaping wounds. I support it.

Soo... what then? Nothing should ever be done until EVERYTHING is fixed all at once?
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Postby Birile » Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:45 pm

Tasan wrote:
Ambar wrote:if you want to wipe, delete your equipped chars!


You don't seem to get it.

NEW game. NEW style. NEW stats on eq. NEW mob AI.

THE GAME IS CHANGING. Why should we be importing godly characters into the new game?

The idea isn't "I'm bored and need a pwipe to have fun." It is "This mud needs a pwipe when it changes to an entirely new game".

Who freakin cares if people get reequipped in a few months time.. at least there are those few months where people would actually play, instead of now where people go off in groups of 2 by themselves and don't talk to the rest of the mud populace while they level up their billionth alt. Yay, what a fun game that is.


Being the diplomat that I am, I would also add that a pwipe would also encourage new players who test-drive Toril to stick around. As it stands, if a newbie logs on, they're one of maybe 3 people below level 10, 5 below level 20 and a LOT of 46+ off doing their thing (I'm being kind, it's more often the case they're the sole person or one of two below 20). How exciting to have to explore the mud on your own and rely on lvl 50s when you run into a stumbling block (who will answer your question via NHC and be on their merry way)--again, while you're exploring the mud by yourself. All alone. On a mud that is supposed to encourage groups. Yay.
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Postby Latreg » Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:54 pm

Tasan wrote:
Ambar wrote:if you want to wipe, delete your equipped chars!


You don't seem to get it.

NEW game. NEW style. NEW stats on eq. NEW mob AI.

THE GAME IS CHANGING. Why should we be importing godly characters into the new game?

The idea isn't "I'm bored and need a pwipe to have fun." It is "This mud needs a pwipe when it changes to an entirely new game".

Who freakin cares if people get reequipped in a few months time.. at least there are those few months where people would actually play, instead of now where people go off in groups of 2 by themselves and don't talk to the rest of the mud populace while they level up their billionth alt. Yay, what a fun game that is.


With all due respect, I think you are the one who doesn't get it. Some of the old players said they would come back for 2.0 with their godly like characters. Some of the active players said they would not play without their godly like characters. So here's the choice, you wipe, you may gain back some of the old time players and loose some old time active players and you may gain some new players. You don't wipe, the inactives still remain so, you may gain back some old players and new ones and not loose those who would quit with a wipe. While your logic is sound, this is a game, it's not real, there fore logic has no real place in it.

On a personal note, I have left and only came back because homeland closed, i wouldn't come back after an equipment wipe, character wipe I would probably re-level my characters. But again knowing the game more than a newbie, my levels would come much faster than theirs and I would surpass them in level and we would have the same situation as we currently do.

Birile, it wouldn't take long before the current pbase would be much higher level than the newbies, it would be a very sort lived fix. The mud is supose to be group friendly, but the reality is, that it is not, which is supose to change with 2.0
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:30 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Arilin Nydelahar wrote:Yeah. Band-Aids always fix massive, gaping wounds. I support it.

Soo... what then? Nothing should ever be done until EVERYTHING is fixed all at once?


So. We've gone through how many incarnations of the mud? How many incarnations of this mud have had this problem? How many of them have been up long enough for this to become a problem?

No, issues should be fixed, but this is a total short-term solution to a long term problem. A wipe won't fix anything. Sure, it'd get people playing again for a bit, then they'd get bored again and go away. I'm sure it'd bring some players back that'd i'd like to see come back playing again, but give it a few years and we'll be back full circle where we are. Pwipes haven't fixed anything. And yes, 2.0 was not put in then, and it's not put in now.

How about we see how things go once it's put in first prior to calling for a pwipe? Personally I don't want one. I've worked decently hard to obtain the gear I have, and i'm more or less happy with my set. If it wipes, I probably won't come back again. The only reason I can zone now, is because I had already put the time into the characters for their level. I do not have the time to relevel, and get to a point where I can zone, check all the rares I need to replace the countless quest items I have, some exceedingly tough.

That's the largest con I see. A lot of people simply do not have the time to relevel their chars, and re-equip them. I'm one of those. I'm a very casual player now. I do the random zone, and I set aside the misc saturday for a tia run cause it's fun sometimes, but I don't mud anywhere as near as I used to. Even though I live with a mudder. Neither of us mud to much anymore, there's usually something better to do, but we do both enjoy having the option to login and zone. With a pwipe, we wouldn't have that option anymore. We could login and chat, and that's about it.

So, if you want a wipe I repeat. Go delete your own characters. I'm content with mine, and I don't think it's fair to people who are in the same boat to call for something that'll benefit you in the short term, and then land us back where we are now after to long.
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Postby daggaz » Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:55 pm

Pwipe. And implement 2.0...

Then I will spend less time on table-top games.
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Postby Tasan » Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:19 pm

Latreg wrote:Some of the old players said they would come back for 2.0 with their godly like characters.


You mean players like Ragorn, who has already stated that without a pwipe he would mess around with the new system, become bored again after a month and once again go back into retirement? I'm not so sure we WANT those players back.

The fact is, this game needs a new hardcore gamer blood. No old players are going to come back and suddenly make the game worth playing for newer people. The MUD needs to cater to the hardcore player because the casual player isn't interested enough to bring friends/family/coworkers along for the ride.

Latreg wrote:Some of the active players said they would not play without their godly like characters. So here's the choice, you wipe, you may gain back some of the old time players and loose some old time active players and you may gain some new players. You don't wipe, the inactives still remain so, you may gain back some old players and new ones and not loose those who would quit with a wipe. While your logic is sound, this is a game, it's not real, there fore logic has no real place in it.


Right, let's throw caution to the wind, give everyone artifacts since this isn't real life and see where the fun lies then. The pure and simple logic is everyone gets bored of a game after awhile. 2.0 while providing some new and compelling content is not going to be the end all-be all cure for this game. 2.0 along with massive overhauls of zones/equipment might just make this place compelling enough for people to flock back or(god forbid) for us to attract new hardcore players. You cannot overhaul areas without a clean slate because the current players will cry bloody murder when their crown has 1 less hit die than someone else.

Latreg wrote:But again knowing the game more than a newbie, my levels would come much faster than theirs and I would surpass them in level and we would have the same situation as we currently do.


You are making assumptions which may or may not be true. I'll say it again, I doubt anyone has a real idea of the time commitment that will be involved in 2.0 to go from level 1 newbie to level 50 god. Saying things like "Oh well I know where the TG loads so I'm so going to level faster" is fairly stupid when you have no idea of the engine mechanics or if that same TG is going to be even close to a similar "gain" you would have gotten in this game.

Personally I don't understand how anyone can not see the problems inherent in leaving the current equipment situation stand. You call a pwipe a band-aid and yet thousands of MUDs have used pwipes to refresh their own games time and again, usually after (drumroll please) major changes to game mechanics! Have all other MUDs failed? Are we the only one left? Hardly.

The simple fact is the player base is scared and selfish. Everyone has spent time working towards a maxed set of skills, or a decent set of equipment, it hasn't been just you. You're scared because you put hours of "work" into a single string of ansi. Were you getting paid for playing? I only "work" at work, I don't work here. This is a game I play for fun. This is a game I've loved since the moment I first rolled a ranger(god help me). If you are "working" here, stop(not you immortals, get back to it!). If the game isn't fun, stop playing. Hundreds have done so before you, hundreds more will in time. But I beseech you; Do not wreck this game for people to come with your selfishness, your greed or your sloth.

Copouts like "I don't have time to relevel" are the stupidest thing I've ever heard. This game doesn't take place in the span of a few seconds; It is a world which evolves, persists and maintains. It is going to continue to be here next year and the year after that. You can argue that you'll be left behind because you can't sink as much time into the game as before... well guess what, there seems to be a lot more than 1 person that is saying that. I'm sure there will be multiple people that take more than a few months to get to 50 again... just like after the last wipe.

So you finally collected all the rare items you needed for that long drawn out quest and you don't want to have to do it over again. So make a thread devoted to changing the way quests work. Make a thread asking areas to change the required items to not be rare. Do something. Don't come here, call a pwipe a band-aid and whine about the generalities you assume will happen upon such an event because you are comfortable living in the squalor that is the game today.

If you really cared about this place, you would take a look around and notice that we are the reason the game has stagnated. We have made the game less fun. We are overpowered, coddled school children clutching our dolls and screaming "MINE!".

I don't advocate a pwipe knowing what little I know about 2.0. I don't advocate a pwipe without serious overhauls to the world we play in as well. New mechanics are great, but they do not address the underlying issue that plagues the high end game.

I advocate a pwipe knowing what I know about the current game, the current player base and what I know is fun. Fun isn't sitting around afk all day waiting for 2 people to log in so you can finally go get your 5th TE earring. Fun is grouping together at low levels and taking on mobs you didn't think you could. There was an evilrace Jenna log from earlier this wipe that basically spelled out fun. I suggest you search for it.

Latreg wrote:Birile, it wouldn't take long before the current pbase would be much higher level than the newbies, it would be a very sort lived fix. The mud is supose to be group friendly, but the reality is, that it is not, which is supose to change with 2.0


Very nice contradiction. Current pbase leveling faster in a more group-oriented-exp setting than new players. Just boggles the mind, doesn't it?

Arilin wrote:I'm a very casual player now.


And you always will be. Toril shouldn't cater to you, nor I; It should cater to the people we were when we first started here. That's the reason we are still here.
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Postby Siw » Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:42 pm

I think Tasan sums it up very well. It seems to me that a lot of the people who don't want the wipe are only concerned with their own time/eq/levels lost. For the good of the game, I think we need a wipe to eliminate much of the stagnation in the current game.

This would be the best time to do it. It would make sense for everyone to start again at level 1 and learn the new features of 2.0. What doesn't make sense to me is for everyone to have their twenty uber characters able to configure and reconfigure and optimize every aspect of their character (feats, spells, etc).

If the gods would move forward considering a full pwipe/eqwipe, they could also implement other changes that would make a difference if everyone started out at level 1 again (for example, cash inflation).
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Postby Gurns » Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:30 pm

Ashiwi wrote:while I have stated that the game is in need of a pwipe, I would rather see other measures taken either instead of, or in conjunction with, a pwipe.

I generally agree, but I think a pwipe is needed in conjunction with other measures, in order to make those measures effective.

The amount and power of the gear on the mud is beyond excessive, and has broken the game.

In terms of amount, there are various ways to control the amount of gear. But given the amount of gear and money players have, if a fair and viable system was implemented today, it would be several years before any system would get rid of enough gear to bring the mud into balance.

In terms of power, gear is so powerful, there's little challenge at the high end. What's the success rate on Tiamat? I expect all high end gear needs to be nerfed. Whether the equip calc-er needs a revision, or a cap needs to put on the total bonus to any one item, I don't know. But that's a lot of gear to change. Further, if you want folks to play lots of zones on the mud, then the best gear needs to be spread around more.

Nerfing and spreading the top end gear around will be difficult tasks. A gear wipe would make them easier. Some days I fear that a gear wipe is the only thing that would make them possible.

A gear wipe would fix a lot of problems, so why do I think there should be a pwipe as well?

On most muds, most of us would have left long ago. We've won the game. We've beaten the zones. We've played the classes and races. We're long past done. Here, we don't leave. We sit around and bitch that the game doesn't provide us with what we want. I think that's a credit to the quality of the mud.

But I think to keep that quality, it needs to be kept a full, well rounded mud. Right now it's a hack n' slash, "boss zone" mud. I've got low level chars. What do I hear? "Stay in Scardale, the xp is better." No mention of the 15 or 20 fun little zones I can go to, new mobs to see, little quests to do. "Level as fast as you can." No mention of different ways to have fun, like exploring, questing, RP. "Here's some OK gear, come talk to me when you're able to (high end) zone." The "OK gear" being almost the same quality as I have on Gurns, since he hasn't been on for a couple years. If I take the handout, then for the next few months, any success I have with finding or earning gear will be cheapened, because it still won't be as good as what someone casually handed me.

I can refuse to play that game. But what about a newbie? Is that the game we want to tell newbies they should be playing? Is that the game we want newbies to be playing?

No. That's not the game we fell in love with. We fell in love with our first tiny silver ring that we earned, our first trip to (or off of) EM, the first quest we figured out ourselves, our first trip off Prime where we didn't die, our first trip to Jot. Hell, I remember being excited by the first mob I looted that had (drumroll) a platinum coin! Woo hoo! We fell in love with the whole game, not just a half a dozen high end zones. The way things are now, there's nothing for newbies to fall in love with.

I think that the imms need to make a hard decision, and do what's best for the long-term interests of the mud. And long-term, it has to be new players. We old-timers are slipping away, slowly but surely.

And what's going to attract new players? Or at least, the new players we'd like to see on the mud? The whole game. The full process. And seeing that whole game requires there be other people to play with. Other people to do the journey with. Other people to start you on a quest, not hand you all the pieces and tell you every step. Other people to go do the enjoyable, well-written low and mid-level zones, the zones that were a thrill the first time we did them, the zones that so many folks now say "aren't worth doing".

A pwipe would give the newbies more folks to play with, those old-timers who come back. Some old-timers will race for 50, but some of us don't have time for that, and so we'll be around at low levels for a while. And if the mud loses some old-timers who only like the high end, or who can't stand the thought of re-leveling/questing/etc, well, so what? We/They are all drifting away anyway. A pwipe makes it faster for some, but we'll all be gone, sooner or later. You can't keep the mud going unless you focus on what's best for the newbies.
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Postby Latreg » Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:45 pm

to Gurns and the other pro wipe

You have always had the ability to play a level 1 and not power level/power gear it up, and level slowly so the newbies would have people to hang with, everyone has had and still has that option. How many of you have do it? So now you want to force this on everyone. As I have said I tried this with menzo drow, it didn't last. Has anyone else tried it with a different race? No. It might be worth doing again once 2.0 goes in. I'm sure all of you will volunteer to do this to help and attract the newbies. I'm sure you will turn down zone invites and your rare hunting to do this as well. So as you can clearly see there is no real reason to pwipe when you can already play as if there were. If hand outs and quest help is a problem that can be addressed and as a community we can resolve it. Just say no to plevel and hand outs! oh yeah, and to drugs too.
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Postby moritheil » Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:50 pm

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Postby Botef » Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:15 pm

I've avoided tossing my hat in on this one but I'm superbly bored at work being that its Spring Break and my employees are all off jaunting in the sun.

I'll wholeheartedly agree that a pwipe would be the best measure for fixing many of the issues that cannot be fixed with code - those primarily being the over abundance of EQ, Platinum and Alt Characters.

Its been said that the code issues like time sinks, grinding xp, etc are all going to be fixed - and based on that assumption a pwipe seems prudent. It would level the playing field for all players both in terms of equipment and to a degree 'knowledge', particularly the 'how' on getting things done. I'm still on the middle of the fence though for one major reason...

Assuming 2.0 comes with a pwipe what happens if the issues stated herein are NOT fixed in the manner we hope and assume it will be? If XP is still a grind, if time sinks are not properly fixed, if newbie eq is still outright hosed, I highly doubt as many people are going to stick around to relevel their chars...And if that were the case I'd wager we'd stand to lose MORE than we would just implementing 2.0 and go from there. Doing this to bring back players just doesn't make sense if it will push the current ones, the ones who still play nearly everyday, away.

Doing a pwipe to 'draw more new players' doesn't seem logical to me because we won't ever draw the kind of new players we used to with games like WoW getting better and better at emulating the depth of a game like this. Doing a pwipe to set everyone at an even point is a nice idea, but its not going to have much of an effect unless our old players know that the high-end game is worth the trouble of starting at square one again. Standing perspective will always overrule the assumptions we can make about how 2.0 will be. If the first 1-30 levels still suck, its going to be a hindrance in getting people to even bothering with getting to level 50.

Two reasons I wouldn't want a wipe right away:

1 - I want to see the high end game in 2.0 right off.
2 - I'd want to know the high end game would be worth me committing to again.

Obviously a good beta will also be needed to test the high-end game, and that will take time as players relearn how to do things. If thats the case, it should be an OPEN beta and the intentions of a pwipe should be upfront.

This would allow for a full testing of the games high-end, assure me that I'm not wasting my time releveling to only find the same stalemates at the upper end of things and give everyone a chance to test things out before committing themselves to any one class.

I guess in the end I'd be supportive of a pwipe under the right conditions...But If I were to find all my characters deleted, starting at square one and knowing that the same handful of people who are at the top of the game now have the upper hand from playing in a private BETA while I spent several months bored shitless I might not be so inclined to stick around. Infact, I'd be quite miffed about the whole thing. Seems to me thats the core issue for a pwipe - putting everyone back at square one so players actually have a shot at being 'the best' without feeling like their behind several years in ptime and knowledge. Stagnation.

I think we've more than covered the pro's and con's...I say its time we discuss HOW a pwipe would be handled because to me its not as black & white as some make it out to be.
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Postby Tasan » Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:09 pm

Latreg wrote:So as you can clearly see there is no real reason to pwipe when you can already play as if there were.


Reading comprehension is obviously not one of your strong points.
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Postby Latreg » Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:36 am

Tasan wrote:Reading comprehension is obviously not one of your strong points.


so when are you rolling up a newbie and play like the game was wiped? I look forward to all the new players you bring into the game. gratz
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:05 am

Okay, now that you've toodled around in Ideal world, what's your real ideas for fixing the issues of a broken economy and been-there-done-that-got-the-mithril-tshirt-ism? It's all sunshine and roses to say "everybody play nice and hold each other's hands," but in truth we have a plethora of personalities here, and a plethora of playing styles that contribute to the happiness of those personalities. You have to have +2 adamantium blinders to think there's going to be enough people who will do it to make a serious impact on the long-term playability of the game.

Besides that, guess what.... almost everybody who is now suggesting a pwipe HAS THAT TSHIRT! I can guarantee you almost every long-time player here has, at least once, rolled up a new character from scratch and seen how far they can go on no pleveling and no handouts with other low levels. Half my guild ditched their clothes for a week just for the fun of it. I've gone and leveled newbies up in Scardale many times. I used to spend TONS of time on Evermeet back when little elves were confined there until level 20, helping them get off the island. I STILL have multiple low level characters from back then that I used for that specific purpose.

It's unfair of you to cop a snide tone on the BBS and insinuate the fault lies with people who have already done the things you're suggesting, and STILL see the game in the state it is in today.

Jeebus... exactly what level are we allowed to get to before we have to get nekkid again, in order for you to have your idealistic world? Would everybody BUT you spend all their time in Scardale helping out newbies who would also never be approved for post-30 status because they have to go back and help all the newbies this tactic will surely pull in? What pop psych book told you that the kind of mentality that truly drives a video game is also the kind that loves holding hands and making nice? The closest thing to fuzzy puppies in a hardcore gamer's mentality is "com-pet-i-tion." You're not going to talk enough of the players in this game into voluntarily throwing away all their hardwon loot to recreate the atmosphere fostered after a pwipe that draws the big numbers. The very word "pwipe" brings hordes out of the woodwork, when it's showcased on a site like Kyndig.

Now, seriously... what did you say your real ideas were for fixing the issues being discussed in this thread?

In case anybody missed them, here they are again. Equipment glut, broken economy, lack of players overall, lack of low levels for newbies to exp with, bleed-out of experienced players due to lack of interest from loss of challenge. There's more, I'm sure, but that's more than enough to start.[/i]
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wait a sec

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:40 am

By "pwipe" we've been talking about a pipiwipe right? Somehow I think I misunderstood the thread.
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Postby Latreg » Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:33 am

Ashiwi wrote:In case anybody missed them, here they are again. Equipment glut, broken economy, lack of players overall, lack of low levels for newbies to exp with, bleed-out of experienced players due to lack of interest from loss of challenge. There's more, I'm sure, but that's more than enough to start.[/i]


Unless there are constant equipment wipes, the "Equipment glut" will always be a problem. Lack of low levels for newbies to exp with... make some, you think forcing everyone back to level 1 is going help this? I'm going to hang out with my current friend who have helped me tons and I feel I owe them lots still. Pwipe isn't going to fix a broke economy, because there is no economy. Start charging plats to zone. As I have said all those "experienced players" or more than free to start from scratch.

While currently you gain more exp solo, this will be fixed some in 2.0 however I'll bet you still get better exp solo. Let's consider post wipe gearing up. Less people equal more chance of winning a bid, so you're unknown newbies will be left out in the cold again. A few kind souls will hand them gear eventually, which they won't earn or learn and we'll be in the same position. It happens now doesn't it, FK anyone? So are you the one thinking of an "ideal" world to think all these things won't happen?
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Postby Kegor » Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:26 pm

Latreg wrote:you think forcing everyone back to level 1 is going help this?


Yes. That's the general idea. Everyone all at once starting from scratch is a beautiful thing under the circumstances. I think we would definately keep more new players from a wipe, than the old ones that could possibly quit from 'not having enough time' to learn how to distribute thier feats as a level 50 newb.

I fully agree with what Doug was saying. Anyone who doesn't see what this would do for the MUD has some self preservation issues. Let it go.

I don't plan to be level 50 within 5-6 months maybe even a year. I actually don't really care. I want to take my time and enjoy the little things all over again, exploring the abilities of these new classes with everyone else as level 1.

This argument about how anyone can "wipe themself" is pretty funny. I don't think you understand the magnitude of the spark a pwipe can bring to a MUD or why that is. Some of you people refusing to accept this as the right course of action have never even played here from the begining of a wipe. You don't know how much fun it is. There is definately competition for the l33t frequent players, and those new players eager and waiting for a wipe, seeking to be l33t (me a the begining of this last wipe when I fully got hooked on this game forever). But, the lasting effects of this will keep the lower level base of people like me who don't really care about being level 50 overnight, knowing I can take years and years and years if I want, and that would be okay. It doesn't matter what level you are, especially if you would be enjoying the game even more after a wipe. Think about it. Thriving MUD of revived old players with a new mission in life, massive influx of newbies due to pwipe. Picture it.

Then picture it without that. Bunch of level 50 dumbasses poking around for months figuring out what feats they consider the best and most useful. Not zoning much cuz they still don't need any eq from this zone or that zone. Making a new game under these circumstances would be ridiculous, and I know the staff will do the right thing and make the game more exciting for everybody, weather they are ready to accept that excitement without crying or not. :)
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Postby Birile » Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:45 pm

Ditto Tasan and Ashiwi in full.

There's not much to add except this:

I was one of those Menzo drow you talked about, Latreg. I rolled Iqhas and for a couple days we had a general group size of 5 of us going around exping. And then some people got bored or had RL issues and didn't log on and I found myself exping either solo or with one other drow (who I'm rather certain was not you!). Two lowbies going around with newbie gear makes for some SLOW exp. Had the group consisted of a constant 8-15 people, we would have probably been able to take on bigger mobs, maybe getting the same slow exp but potentially more, but the social aspect would have been well worth it and much better than the grind with one other person--or none at all.

Frankly, if I were a true newbie I was so frustrated at the lack of others to play with at my level, the slow exp and the difficulty regaining any lost exp from deaths that I felt I would have quit the game. But I loved the character so instead of dropping him I said, "Screw this" and eq'd myself. It was a last resort.

And as far as I know, Iqhas is the only one of that Menzo drow group who is still around.

The experiment failed. Not because people weren't interested in pwiping themselves, but because pwiping yourself when there is no one else or very few others doing it proved that one of the reasons we have a problem with new player retention is a lack of others at the same level.

I have to reiterate something Ashiwi eluded to. If we were to implement 2.0 and at the same time have a pwipe and if we advertised both of these things with a LOT of fanfare on sites like Kyndig, etc. (and couple this with the new icon on CMUD) the influx of new players would more than offset those of us who truly would not come back if we pwiped (and by "truly would not come back" I mean about 4 or 5 people). I love most of you guys, but if you left because of a pwipe and we retained 10 new players as a result of the pwipe I think it's a fair trade-off. Hell, if we retained only ONE new player for each player who left it would be a fair trade-off because chances are that person would have a lot more passion to offer the game to give it life than the oldtimer who quit.

Tasan is spot-on: this game cannot and should not just cater to us oldtimers who used to have passion for the game but now have every trinket there is and whose only interest in the game is going on Nerox' Tiamat runs.

The thought of a pwipe exhilarates me simply for the fact that it WOULD be fun to run around in a group of 10-15 old players and newbies getting exp, getting a new set of armor that gives 1ac more than what we're given at the start of the game and as a group deciding that the main tank deserves and needs it more than anyone else and handing it over to him/her without argument. What a way to build camaraderie which, in the end, is one of the best things to attract a true newbie to this game that most of us love after all of these years!

The more and more we discuss the pro's and con's of a pwipe, the more I think it's a great idea.
Last edited by Birile on Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:52 pm

Here's the problem with a pwipe:

In order for it to work, a LOT of things need to be addressed first so that we don't just end up in the same place in a year or two. As gigantic a project as it is, 2.0 is not trying to fix all of these problems. It will address the core gameplay issues so that we have a solid foundation to start building on, to start working on these larger issues that might make a pwipe viable.

For what it's worth, 2.0 will give those of you who are bored plenty of new things to do. New kinds of equipment to get, spells to collect, new zones, new classes, new races, etc.
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Postby Birile » Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:59 pm

Shevarash wrote:Here's the problem with a pwipe:

In order for it to work, a LOT of things need to be addressed first so that we don't just end up in the same place in a year or two. As gigantic a project as it is, 2.0 is not trying to fix all of these problems[\b]. It will address the core gameplay issues so that we have a solid foundation to start building on, to start working on these larger issues that might make a pwipe viable.

For what it's worth, 2.0 [b]will
give those of you who are bored plenty of new things to do. New kinds of equipment to get, spells to collect, new zones, new classes, new races, etc.


Man, you butchered that with bold. :lol:

I think you may have missed much of the point we're arguing concerning the new blood which would be infused into the game (or you've heard the points we're making but not focusing on them!). Rather than many new players showing up to check out Toril 2.0 and then a handful sticking around, a pwipe would give you a better chance of retaining more of those new players.

And, frankly, I still have a hard time believing that those who are vehemently opposed to a pwipe really wouldn't reroll a character to at least try Toril 2.0 out even if it means using a level 1 character. :)

Also, from the information here it would seem that roughly half of your players who care about the subject think a FULL pwipe is the way to go. Of the roughly half who don't want a FULL pwipe, I would wager that at least half of them would advocate some sort of pwipe/eqwipe, and very few of them would actually quit the game 100% as a result (and right now, I'm guessing those who WOULD quit the game only give 10% atm anyway).

I say that with much respect, Shev.
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Postby Latreg » Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:16 pm

I remember starting out and looking at other players with their neat ansi looking gear and asking what and where it was from. That drove me to keep playing, getting my first proc-ing weapon was awesome. Seeing people with fancy weapons etc. was cool. So to have people equiped can be a good thing as well.

No one has given any solid reason for a forced wipe when, yet again, that choice can always be made. So let's say there is no wipe, all you in favor will just do your own characters right? The mud can be advertised as having a well balance pbase. Actually why haven't any of you pro wipe people done it yet? Why to you feel the need to drag us down with you? It just doesn't make sense. If your characters and gear only mean stats and colored ansi to you go play Duris, they wipe, some people have come to us from there for just that reason.

Instead of forcing people to potentially quit, why not start a seperate thread and all you pros can choose a date to wipe out your gear and characters and make it into a party.

As far as the large amounts of gear go, remove the auctions and we can have an unwritten rule, no hand outs. For those of you wanting to start over this won't be an issue, because you wouldn't accept a hand out anyway, or be in a zone or group that is way to powerful and you shouldn't be in. And no pleveling. simple really.
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:39 pm

If your characters and gear only mean stats and colored ansi to you go play Duris, they wipe, some people have come to us from there for just that reason.

The problem with saying "if you don't like it, leave" is that people eventually will. How many people are left online right now? Is that number growing or shrinking over time?

Why to you feel the need to drag us down with you? It just doesn't make sense.

When you logged into Toril today, what did you do that was so fun that you think a pwipe would drag you away from? What is it about your character today that is so compelling that makes you think wiping will "drag you down?"

Is it your pretty ansi?

The big numbers next to your skills?

The fantastic super-awesome quest spells (all of which will soon be on every Wizard's spell list)?

And to answer your question, the last time I rolled up a newbie with no equipment and no handouts was Thanksgiving. It was boring as fuck, because I didn't see another living human being in Scardale for the entire first week I played him. It was like playing a single-player text game.
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Postby Latreg » Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:46 pm

Ragorn wrote:The problem with saying "if you don't like it, leave" is that people eventually will. How many people are left online right now? Is that number growing or shrinking over time?

how is this different than saying if we wipe and loose some old players who cares?

When you logged into Toril today, what did you do that was so fun that you think a pwipe would drag you away from? What is it about your character today that is so compelling that makes you think wiping will "drag you down?"


there are quests I have been working on, stuff I can't do with a level 1-45 character, rares I have collected etc.


[/quote]And to answer your question, the last time I rolled up a newbie with no equipment and no handouts was Thanksgiving. It was boring as fuck, because I didn't see another living human being in Scardale for the entire first week I played him. It was like playing a single-player text game.[/quote]

but you'll have more people from all the ones who will choose to wipe out their own characters and gear. Still, nothing you have said makes sense to wipe those who do not wish it.
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Postby Tasan » Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:59 pm

Shevarash wrote:Here's the problem with a pwipe:

In order for it to work, a LOT of things need to be addressed first so that we don't just end up in the same place in a year or two.


So what is stopping that work from getting done? People? Time? Effort? Hire some people to help. I don't understand why we suddenly have 2 admin that are ever visible... I don't understand why Auril spends more time doing admin work than RP work(sadly). Start interviewing people. Start hiring people. Get this 2.0 buzz worked to a frenzy. More people helping with the project(even if it isn't coding) should only benefit this place as a whole. As far as I can see, time is not on your side and as the days and weeks pass by, more and more are going to be tired of waiting.
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Postby Gormal » Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:51 pm

I heartily endorse this thread.
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:28 pm

Tasan wrote:
Shevarash wrote:Here's the problem with a pwipe:

In order for it to work, a LOT of things need to be addressed first so that we don't just end up in the same place in a year or two.


So what is stopping that work from getting done? People? Time? Effort? Hire some people to help. I don't understand why we suddenly have 2 admin that are ever visible... I don't understand why Auril spends more time doing admin work than RP work(sadly). Start interviewing people. Start hiring people. Get this 2.0 buzz worked to a frenzy. More people helping with the project(even if it isn't coding) should only benefit this place as a whole. As far as I can see, time is not on your side and as the days and weeks pass by, more and more are going to be tired of waiting.


I addressed your question in the next sentence of my post that you quoted. 2.0 is a foundation that we can build on which will address the core gamplay issues in Toril. Once that is complete, we can move on to these other issues. That's the whole reason why 2.0 was born. I was excited to work on other things - "kingdom code", trade, guildhalls, dynamic zone content, etc - but realized that it would be irresponsible to focus on these things while deep issues like basic class balance and experience gain were in desperate need of overhauling. It doesn't matter how many people we pile on the project, one thing has to come before the other.

As to getting other people involved, there are already quite a few. Nearly everyone on the staff is working on some aspect of 2.0, be it code, new areas, help files, proofing, etc. Now would be a pretty late stage to bring anyone else into the project, but if you're interested you can always send me a resume at shevarash@gmail.com.
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:33 pm

Please keep your arguments civil and respectful in this forum. Personal attacks and flames will be removed.
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Postby Gormal » Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:36 pm

My entire post wasn't valid?

I'll say it again... this thread is about a full pwipe and a level playing field. Stop suggesting that we wipe ourselves.
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Postby Latreg » Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:53 pm

Gormal wrote:My entire post wasn't valid?

I'll say it again... this thread is about a full pwipe and a level playing field. Stop suggesting that we wipe ourselves.


So when the playing field is no longer level then what? wipe again? 2.0 will always keep the playing field level? How does anyone know that 2.0 won't attract as many newbies as 2.0 with a wipe will? The arguement that new players won't have same level people to play with is why the suggestion that you wipe yourselves comes up. If you have ever bid on something you didn't need, consider yourself selfish, which we all are.
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Postby Tasan » Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:17 pm

Latreg wrote:If you have ever bid on something you didn't need, consider yourself selfish, which we all are.


Have never bid on something I didn't need or could give to someone I knew needed it. So really, STFU.

Pwipe isn't about new players. It's about resetting a game that won't be the same so that the current equipment problems(and hence game problems) aren't existent. I'm sorry you can't grasp the concept.
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Postby Birile » Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:34 pm

Shev... I can't help but notice that you didn't say there would be a drawback to having a pwipe along with 2.0's implementation. So why balk at the suggestion?

I also can't help but notice you didn't address what I pointed out before about how roughly half of those who care about the pwipe issue one way or the other seem to be asking for it. This is a sharp jump in those asking for a pwipe than we've seen in recent years.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:28 pm

Birile wrote:I also can't help but notice you didn't address what I pointed out before about how roughly half of those who care about the pwipe issue one way or the other seem to be asking for it. This is a sharp jump in those asking for a pwipe than we've seen in recent years.


I disagree. We just have a smaller pbase now than, well, ever.
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Postby Tasan » Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:35 pm

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:I disagree. We just have a smaller pbase now than, well, ever.


Possibly because the game has become so mind-numbingly boring because of the problems we are trying to get rid of w/ a pwipe?
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:51 pm

Tasan wrote:
Arilin Nydelahar wrote:I disagree. We just have a smaller pbase now than, well, ever.


Possibly because the game has become so mind-numbingly boring because of the problems we are trying to get rid of w/ a pwipe?


Right, the problems that won't get fixed with a wipe.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:29 am

The ongoing problems won't get fixed with or without a wipe. That's why it would be best to wipe in conjunction with the fixes that take care of the problems. Wiping would be a benefit to the game, yes, but a temporary benefit could be potentially damaging to the reputation of the game if there aren't fixes in place that address the underlying issues.

There has to be a process in place that addresses equipment glut for an equipment wipe to be truly successful, and it should be implemented along with the wipe for the general population of the game to have a chance of becoming more accepting of it. As much as people hate it, there HAS to be a process in the game to remove equipment at a much faster rate than we have at present. Dragons were put in, the !burn flag compensated. Water swallowed items as long as they weren't float. Every risk to equipment has been offset by easily accomplished methods of insuring there will be no risk.

There are very simple rules that dictate the law of supply and demand. The harder something is to get, the fewer there are available, the more prestige there is to having it.

2.0 might fix a lot of problems the game has, but it's not going to give people who have everything a reason to go back to the same old zones again. You can put in some newer, tougher, spankier zones, but without a way of removing old gear you still have the issue of escalation, and they'll only open up options as long as there's enough of a pbase to tackle tougher zones, and only for as long as it takes top players to get what they want from those zones.

2.0 will be great, but balance has always been an issue... even back at the beginning of the pwipe.
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Postby Todrael » Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:31 am

Stolen from someone who left another mud I used to play:

JMB wrote:From afar, XXXXXXX often wonders why you keep coming back if you truly dislike this place so much. Then I wonder why I keep coming back when the people piss me off so much. I think it's the same. Everyone needs a feeling and sense of superiority.

You paged XXXXXX with 'No, you're wrong. It's a sense of belonging that's so powerful it makes all the crap, somehow, tolerable.'.

Let me leave with words of dignity and inspiration, not the words of bile and negativity that flow so easily to these venerable keys:

Within your minds, each of you, is a world of fantasy. You dream it, you think it, and when the lighting is right, the mood perfect, the audience responsive, you act it. But dream and fantasy, when lived every day, many hours a day, becomes routine and grey. As each card; adventure, romance, sadness, angst, vindication, victory, charity, greatness, are laid before you and turned over you begin to know the face of the card. The feeling is strongest as the card is turned, and the longer it remains visible, the more acustomed to its value you become. Time kills fantasy, time kills the magic, time kills the dream.

We are told that our dreams and fantasies have an invulnerability. We are taught that our goals are achievable, and that nothing is beyond our reach if we can find the strength to see it through. Yet, the fantasy still dies. In our sadness, apathy, or confusion we point and blame. "He ruined my dream, she ruined my fantasy, they took away place thing person rule bar love and now the magic is gone." But it is time that kills. It is familiarity that comes with time that kills.

There isn't a person on this mush who's opinion can truly be swayed to any real effect. Why cannot then, we be as stubborn about living out our fantasy? I don't know. All I can say is this:

While the magic is here, be here. Live it to its fullest. When the magic dies, be strong and move on. When you out-live your own magic, you run the risk of ruining someone elses.
-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
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