Pwiping isn't the only answer

Discussion concerning the upcoming Toril 2.0 update as well as general 3.5 edition D&D discussion
Jurdex
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Pwiping isn't the only answer

Postby Jurdex » Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:07 am

First off, if I call Toril by the name Sojourn, it is only because I view them interchangeably. I started playing in '96, so it has always been Sojourn to me. No offense is meant.

Sojourn is many things to each and every one of us. It has been a game. An obsession. An aggravation. A reason to be late for work or fail a test, and also motivation to pump your fist into the air after winning a huge bid or finding a sweet rare. The beauty, though, of Sojourn is not in any of these aspects, but rather the one unifying theme it holds in every single one of our lives.

This mud brings us all together. For better or worse, we are all here for one simple reason. Toril. Sojourn. The mud.

She brings us back to a time in our lives where things were different. Like finding an old letter jacket stowed away in the attic, memories come flooding back. However, the great thing about the mud is that she's still alive.

Our friends, many of whom have come and gone, still remain in our thoughts. Some even occasionally stop by. Reliving past glories and triumphs. Heartbreak and despair.

And inexorably we all want to come back and experience it all over again.

Sadly, time moves forward, even when we do not want to.

So, we logon to the forums and give our opinion, as outdated and uninformed as it often may be. Why do we do it? Because we care..

Now, with that said.. Here's my two cents. ;)

The main issue the mud has is not in the areas (though I left partly when I did because every new area put in at the time was biggerbaddertougherlonger), the equipment (though you really need to stop downgrading equipment, no one wants to play with a toy that's taken away and given back less cool, seriously, either make it harder to acquire, move it, or scale the mud to compensate.. never ever downgrade it), or even the quests (though something must be done to distinguish who is a quest mob and who isn't.. there simply isn't enough time to sit around asking strings of words to every single mob.. make them either approach the player with a quest through says or have *some* distinguishing marker that they have a quest.. times evolve, so should games and so must quest mobs)..

What, to me, is the overwhelming problem with the mud is the economy..

Any game that mirrors real life allows for true immersion into the story and thus the character and in the end the game world.. no better way to truly get people engrossed in your product than to allow them to do all of the things they'd love to do.. that is procure standing and money which allows us then to shop for toys and a place to live and furbish it with our spanky new stuff..

Soo.. how does one fix the economy?

Well, first you might say making quests require giving up spanky gear is a way to get top end items out of circulation. Sure, that's one method. Another more reasonable method is what Gormal and some others have mentioned.. actually selling your wares for profit! Whether it be to a vendor or to another player, the ultimate goal in the world should be acquiring money and maintaining a cash flow so that your bank account doesn't grow dry.

I remember when I started doing Auctions when I was with Shadows of Imphras.. There were three reasons I wanted to do it. One, I thought it would stimulate the mud by engrossing people in actual live event that EVERYONE could participate in. Two, I thought it would be cool if our guild had a million platinum. And three, I thought it would be fun to see if people showed up and it was just another challenge to pull off. That's why our guild did the auctions.

The end result?

It stimulated some group activity, but then everyone was holding auctions and it was just getting to the onset of today's equipment proliferation.. and money was meaningless anyways so... yeah.

We got our million plat (I'm pretty sure anyway) as a guild and it didn't matter...

There was nothing to do with it..

Guildhalls are not the answer.

However, some sort of occupation code along with residency code as well as transit code is a reasonable answer in my opinion...

First, Auction Houses need to be in every hometown.

There's no reason they shouldn't be in Waterdeep and Mithril Hall (which sorely needs to be redone.. seriously..) and Scorn and Calimport and... you get the idea.

I was told one reason the AH is in Baldur's Gate and not Waterdeep is to force people to get out of Waterdeep. (Now, for argument's sake, let's say that is the reason. It may or may not be, but for my point let's say it is..)

Why, I ask?

Why force the players to do anything? I loathed that as a player. Your job is here to make my stay as enjoyable as possible. Not dictate to me what I should and should not be doing. Yes, I understand you're not paid, but you're doing this out of your love for the game just as I am as a player. So if people want to congregate in Waterdeep, I say great! They should!

If you login to a world and it's a major hub of activity, that says to a new prospective player that this is a happening place. Forcing people to go to Baldur's Gate or Viperstongue is hurting that. I think the more people that are around in one location the better..

I know I was always blown away by all the scrolling names running past me when I made it to Waterdeep.

Sidenote: While we're on the subject.. since you've made Scardale and all accessible to all the newbies, why not allow elves off their island before 20? Just a thought .. I know a new player who didn't play an elf though they wanted to simply because they wouldn't be near me if they needed help.

Back to transit code..

We have griffons, right? I see them around. I guess they are new mounts..

Well, why can't we fly them from town to town? Yes, I know this is in WoW, and I played it, and it was awesome to have that option instead of running. It was fast, enjoyable, and it cost money! Yes, you needed money to fly! The key thing is you had to personally go say hello to the griffon master in the destination point you were flying to before you could go there. For example, I can't fly to Scornubel until I've trekked there on foot and talked to the griffon master there.

Anyway, not only did it cost money and time to do, but I could go AFK while on a long Griffon ride from one town to the next, and do something in RL which many of us oft need to do, then come back and be at my desired location.. you could make it Toril-esque and put in portals from town to town if you so chose.. whatever works. However, the idea is definitely worth considering, I think..

Then you have residency code. If I grow up a dwarf and become an adventurer, why can't I permanently relocate to Waterdeep? I want to buy a house. I want to rent an apartment. I want to build a mansion. Or a castle.

Think of the possibilities.. think of the platinum it would cost.. suddenly I'd be zoning and selling items! I'd need the money!

I could have a home in Waterdeep with my own shop I bought for and supply to sell my wares. I could then also have my own kitchen that supplies me with food.. food that keeps me healthy and maybe depending how much I want to pay my chef the food could give me various properties.. perhaps a short regen of hps or of moves. Then I could maybe even get extravagant and have my own vault where I could store my items.. what about hiring a mage to have a portal connecting all of my residences?

That would cost upkeep!

I could have residences in Scorn, BG, WD, MH.. maybe have it so that when you do quests in certain places it gives you renown or prestige so that your rates are more affordable.. maybe I want to do quests for the elves so they'll eventually consider me a friend and let me go there! Who knows?

It gives you another dynamic to do..

Also, residences should allow you to make it permanent. Say I want to make my WD mansion my home. I then die and go there and not my guildmaster.. it makes sense to me. Everyone before doing Tiamat would put their residency in WD for easier pickup. :)

Occupations..

The mud many years ago tried to impliment trade. It was very cool, but not exactly what I'd consider a great idea to re-instate. Instead, what about making our own crude armor we can sell? Have mobs in zones drop steel flakes or re-do MH and have a ton of quests where you can procure iron, copper, and mithril.. which can be sold or forged into armor.. what about making our own potions? Occupations are a great way to round out a character so you're not doing EXP or Zones or sitting AFK.. and yet you're still being productive because you're earning money which is valuable and gets you what you want in the end a spanky home and the such..

I'm somewhat of a fan of level-restricted gear. I never thought I would be.

It prevents you from power-leveling your alts, yes, but you have knowledge. Knowledge is what will gain you levels quickly. Also, level-restricted gear will make doing mid-level zones worthwhile. Also, spanky items being souldbound is not a bad idea. It's a way to remove items from flooding the game. There's nothing wrong with it.

Zones should give a LOT more exp than exp zones..

Grouping should give bonus exp... (I know it is being addressed, just thought I'd mention it)

Named items should come back. Twilight, the Sword of Destruction is badass. Why would you remove that? It adds a level of prestige to the player and the item and makes a new player go "ohhh" and "ahhh" when they see it and more importantly WANT it.. which makes them want to play.

Besides, they have the hood of Stronmaus and the fiery crown of Surtur.. what's the deal? Bring back Frostbite, Nightbringer, Rockcrusher, and Twilight!!

Bring back perm haste eq but maybe make it warrior only? Something like that.. So that way they don't get left out of the damage fun.

Increase the potions per day limit, but give a cooldown to the potions.. that way if you're a potion maker you're actually worthwhile, but make potions level-restricted..

Make word of recall set to any guild hall you choose. Why does it only take you to your hometown? What's the logical reason there? Maybe you're role-playing a barbarian shaman who has turned his back on his people.. see my point..?

I also recommend strong consideration for uniques or artifacts. I had one unique item and one relic when playing Jurdex. The unique was wt1 ac15 +75hps -15svbreath prot fire ancient red dragon boots and the relic was an 8d4 +8+8 perm DI, Haste, Sense Life, Infravision mighty war axe of Kelrom the Great that proc'd group heal and vampiric touch..

The axe was way overpowered, but the boots were spanky as heck for the time. You could streamline artifacts and uniques and make uniques loseable (as a unique if I lost those boots they were gone), while making artifacts replaceable (I could never lose my axe since it was a relic, it would be replaced).. that'd be kinda cool, I think. Also, when I got the relic I did not deserve it. No way in hell. I got in 1998.. and was just starting to lead zones.. it DID however motivate me to prove to my rivals and even many of my own 'friends' who were not very congratulatory of my reward that I did in fact deserve it.. it was a big motivational tool for me, and I think I can say in the end I did earn it, even after the fact. But artifacts are really not why I posted this, but they definitely add a lot of intrigue to the mud. I think the other suggestions I made really would make a fully engrossing and enjoyable mud that isn't just niche RP and lots of hack and slash and annoying questing..

I do think a pwipe would help, but only short-term, a wipe included with these additions would make for an amazing mudding and long-term gaming experience. At least in my eyes..

Just a few rambling ideas of an old semi-retired dwarf..

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Postby Tasan » Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:22 am

Or you could go play WoW...

Wtf.
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Postby Jurdex » Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:31 am

A lot of these things I've wanted even before WoW ever existed or came about. My time playing there certainly has influenced me.

I stopped playing WoW a few months back because it's just a circular game. It's fun, but it doesn't hold the same appeal to me that Toril does and did and maybe always will..

If you don't like the ideas, that's fine, but saying "go play WoW" is not only dismissive but insulting.

Building code, occupations/trade.. all of that stuff was tossed around way before WoW was ever considered. Also, transit code between towns? I've always wanted portals that teleported us town to town.

*shrugs*

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Postby Tasan » Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:58 am

I'm sorry you feel insulted.

Jurdex wrote:I stopped playing WoW a few months back because it's just a circular game.


This is why I don't want Toril to have so much of what WoW does have. I especially don't want it dumbed down any farther.
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Postby Jurdex » Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:37 am

Erm, Toril is as much a circular game as WoW is.

Actually, moreso. It's not fair to compare the two games, obviously, as one is an enormous project funded and staffed with a pay-to-play basis, but much of their concepts are not original but rather drawn from long-standing muds such as Toril.

Building codes? Talked about, but never implemented.

Trade code? Implemented briefly, but removed due to instability. It was widely popular. A variation of it or an occupation/trade skill type format would be preferrable.

Transit code? I'm not sure it's ever been discussed, but boats and ferries take forever, and there's no reason we can't have portals or griffon rides or any other type travel from town to town or city to city. It makes sense and would certainly help new players getting around once they did an initial exploration.

In the end, if you don't give something for players to do aside from Exping/Questing/Zoning.. they'll wilt and fade away.

There's a small segment that role-plays, but that's never going to be the vast majority.

No, the key way to draw people in is immerse them in an actual world.

Honestly, what is there to do on the mud aside from exp and get eq?

One guy may want to build a castle and he can be famous for that.

Another player may become enthralled with the production value of a trade skill/occupation and devote her time to that.

Still another player might go about collecting all sorts of rare ingredients and sell them in a shop he's renting in WD.

The possibilities? Endless..

Also, the auction system needs a buyout price where the seller sets it at say 750 plat buyout, and if you pay that amount you get the item right then and there.

People could then really work the auction system well.. undercutting starting bids with low buyout prices and the like.. another thing for people to do.. they could make money that way..

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Postby Latreg » Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:26 pm

Sounds like some very interesting and exciting ideas. I would say to those who can only post useless negativity and insults, why not use some ideas from other games? Seems WOW and other games have huge player bases, they must be doing something right. Your ideas would certainly add more dimension to the game, something to do other than zone and exp. the more variety the better, keeps people busy which is a good thing.
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:44 pm

Tasan wrote:I'm sorry you feel insulted.

Jurdex wrote:I stopped playing WoW a few months back because it's just a circular game.


This is why I don't want Toril to have so much of what WoW does have. I especially don't want it dumbed down any farther.

Maybe you're not the kind of player we want playing Toril.
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:50 pm

Tasan wrote:
This is why I don't want Toril to have so much of what WoW does have.


What, like players? ;)
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Postby Gormal » Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:39 pm

Its very easy to compare our dream of Toril to what WoW is already. Its a very well-done game and they have controls in place with professions, level restricted eq, all mobs dropping rares, great auction house system... etc.

Great things are never original. WoW was built using old ideas, why can't Toril do the same?
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Postby Glorishan » Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:20 pm

Gormal wrote:Its very easy to compare our dream of Toril to what WoW is already. Its a very well-done game and they have controls in place with professions, level restricted eq, all mobs dropping rares, great auction house system... etc.

Great things are never original. WoW was built using old ideas, why can't Toril do the same?


Because you touch yourself at night.
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Postby Latreg » Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:16 pm

Glorishan wrote:
Gormal wrote:Its very easy to compare our dream of Toril to what WoW is already. Its a very well-done game and they have controls in place with professions, level restricted eq, all mobs dropping rares, great auction house system... etc.

Great things are never original. WoW was built using old ideas, why can't Toril do the same?


Because you touch yourself at night.


That's not true! he does it during the day as well.

Gormal, Toril can do the same thing but some people consider it dumbing down the mud, so shrug.
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Postby Gormal » Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:55 pm

What is dumbed down about tradeskills, questing for experience, or balanced gameplay? Toril is the only MMO I've ever played until I picked up WoW a few weeks ago. While I love Toril's flavor and atmosphere, I feel like I've been missing out on a lot over the past few years though. Maybe when I hit 70 a couple times and do a lot of the endgame zones, I'll try out Toril again; but my interest is gone as the game is now. Fiddling around with a new gameplay system isn't enough for me to consider playing again.
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:20 pm

Gormal wrote: Fiddling around with a new gameplay system isn't enough for me to consider playing again.


It is for me. ;)

It's odd though, I had a LOT of fun with WoW at first (I tried a free trial a couple months ago, then paid for a month because I was sick) and got bored after about three weeks total. The game had a lot to offer, but after a while it kind of felt like everything was the same. Probably didn't help that I played two characters through the same zones and such... but even when I got to a new town the first time the quests were just restrings of the same ones I'd just done a half dozen times.
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Postby Jurdex » Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:22 pm

This is not meant as a criticism of the staff. Doing anything like this out of your own pocket and giving of your own time is often thankless enough..

However, I've seen monks removed, the sorcerer class split up, the gameplay change in regard to silence room vs person, shieldpunching, warriors as tanks over pets, the revamping of the rogue and paladin and a slew of other changes..

The one thing we have not seen is building code.

I don't know about you, but the first person to own their own castle or keep would certainly be legendary in the annals of this mud's long and rich history. It would be a niche for that person all their own.

There's no one specific fix, but the lack of an economy in this game ruins ANY long-term goals it can ever hope to have..

No matter what changes or additions to the mud you make nothing will truly be fixed long-term until you address a stable economy.

There has to be reasons for people to earn money, to acquire items, and to quest other than it makes zoning easier. There's simply too many other gaming alternatives that have embraced these concepts of world immersion and done so successfully for players to turn to.. they won't stick around.

Also, what about some sort of mapping system?

I'm not necessarily suggesting an ansi map, but as an adventurer, as I explore various places, won't I be mapping it as I go..? Kind of like fog of war..

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Postby Gurns » Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:23 am

I thought that I would never see,
A post that long, and not by me. :)
Jurdex wrote:I do think a pwipe would help, but only short-term, a wipe included with these additions would make for an amazing mudding and long-term gaming experience.

Right. A pwipe alone would be, and has always been, a short term fix. But my opinion is that a pwipe is necessary in order to make those changes work. For example:
Jurdex wrote:the first person to own their own castle or keep

Without a cash wipe first…. *shrug* If that was implemented today, then I assume that half a dozen or more people would buy a castle today. Some no doubt deserve it because they are leaders and/or have done many tough zones many times. Others would get it because they’ve been ninja looting for three or four years, or because they’ve been farming stuff.
Jurdex wrote:home in Waterdeep…my own shop…my own kitchen…my own vault

Except why pay for a vault when we have storage caches? Why pay for food, when we don’t need to eat or drink? I rather like those ideas, but to make them work, I think they’d have to re-implement eating and drinking, and remove storage. And to make it really work well, they’d have to charge rent on items, so people don’t just role up a bunch of storage characters.
Jurdex wrote:Your job is here to make my stay as enjoyable as possible.

Tell that to my DM! :)

Also, I disagree. My view is that the imms’ job is to come up with a coherent reality which provides opportunities for enjoyment, but which forces the player to make choices. The more choices I have to make (up to a point), the more interesting the game. The more consequential my choices are, the better the game, and the more engaged I will be.

But that means limits. Restrictions. Scarcity. So, yeah, it can mean making a choice between hanging out in Waterdeep, or going off to a place with an Auction House. Now, that particular choice might not be good for the game, but at least I have to make a choice, with positives and negatives for both options.

My biggest problem with the graphics games I’ve played is that the choices are inconsequential. I log on, and what’s the situation? I can fight some mob, or I can craft, or I can quest. I gain something, no matter what. But I don’t lose anything. If I choose to fight now, I can craft or quest later, and everything will be there. If I craft or quest now, well, there’s an endless supply of mobs to kill. My choice doesn’t matter. How boring.
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Postby Jurdex » Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:01 am

Gurns wrote:I thought that I would never see,
Right. A pwipe alone would be, and has always been, a short term fix. But my opinion is that a pwipe is necessary in order to make those changes work. For example:

Without a cash wipe first…. *shrug* If that was implemented today, then I assume that half a dozen or more people would buy a castle today. Some no doubt deserve it because they are leaders and/or have done many tough zones many times. Others would get it because they’ve been ninja looting for three or four years, or because they’ve been farming stuff.


We completely agree. The changes I'm talking about should probably all go in at the same time Toril 2.0 does along with a pwipe.

Keeping the old game up and running but no longer "fixing" it is a possibility to keep those satisified they haven't lost their characters. No idea how plausible that is, though..

Except why pay for a vault when we have storage caches? Why pay for food, when we don’t need to eat or drink? I rather like those ideas, but to make them work, I think they’d have to re-implement eating and drinking, and remove storage. And to make it really work well, they’d have to charge rent on items, so people don’t just role up a bunch of storage characters.


Well, the storage cache is new to me. I'd rather see us have to have actual vaults. It makes more sense. Perhaps limiting the storage cache and making a vault a lot larger.. you should only have so much space if you're renting room in an inn, right?

Eating foods that give bonuses and drinking drinks that give bonuses sounds like a great encouragement to me..?


Also, I disagree. My view is that the imms’ job is to come up with a coherent reality which provides opportunities for enjoyment, but which forces the player to make choices. The more choices I have to make (up to a point), the more interesting the game. The more consequential my choices are, the better the game, and the more engaged I will be.

But that means limits. Restrictions. Scarcity. So, yeah, it can mean making a choice between hanging out in Waterdeep, or going off to a place with an Auction House. Now, that particular choice might not be good for the game, but at least I have to make a choice, with positives and negatives for both options.

My biggest problem with the graphics games I’ve played is that the choices are inconsequential. I log on, and what’s the situation? I can fight some mob, or I can craft, or I can quest. I gain something, no matter what. But I don’t lose anything. If I choose to fight now, I can craft or quest later, and everything will be there. If I craft or quest now, well, there’s an endless supply of mobs to kill. My choice doesn’t matter. How boring.


No, I'm not sure I follow..

Yes, there has to be rules and discipline. I think Mystra's strict enforcement of the rules back in the day was actually a huge benefit to the game. Always did. There has to be a tough cop (but fair) around or people get away with murder.

So, I'm all for giving us consequences and choices, but NOT when it detracts from the game's enjoyment or the gameplay..

Forcing people out of Waterdeep is absurd.. thinking that the City of Splendors wouldn't have an Auction House is again absurd. Hometowns should be hubs of activity.. instead they are graveyards filled with ghosts of former players no longer playing or of people sitting idle with their AFK flag on..

What better way to promote hometowns than to make them important? When I'm up north I should want to swing by Mithril Hall or Griffon's Nest.. when I am down south I should want to stop by Calimport.. but I don't.. that's a huge issue.. I think adding in transit code and outfittiing each hometown with their own sets of quests and auction houses and perhaps even their own economies would make a big difference to that end.

And the makers/designers/creators of any game are there to make your experience as enjoyable as possible. That doesn't mean maximum enjoyment and strict enforcement of rules and choices are mutually exclusive..

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Postby bawog » Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:29 am

As I much agree with Dornax with his ideas for the MUD, there are a few things that need to be adresssed with this first. Lets take a look at equipment for example. Ok now I've been back merely 2-3 years give or take, and already I have 4x EQ sets and have no problem spreading the gear around for certain situations. Most people log on looking at us 50's saying to themselved "Wow I want to be that level" 50 in and of itself is a pretige to the newer players, and even tho their journey has just begun at 50 there should be other things to do in between. Now have a few level 50's and I as well become bored with the constant zoning, trying to "deck" out my character. However this is to be expected of some people, and with some of Dornax's ideas this would not just be a temporary band-aid, but more so a fixture to the MUD in and of itself. In terms of the trade system...I can remember doing it religously as my paladin, GREAT code, something to do when I was turned down for zone (and yes I know not many knew me back then but its all good) Now lets take a look at the current MUD economy...
Ok now the economy has pretty gone to crap to be honest, as Dornax has posted above there is a surplus of plats, and nothing to do with it. I can remember when I first came back to the MUD I can remember sitting around hoping that there would something good popping up on the auction house, but now its just a plat farm. When my plat reserves get low, I come around and list a few items just to get it back. Lets say that we have something as in a house, castle, shop, or IMAGINE THIS guildhalls to invest in!!!! Now I know the code is there to import, this would return some of the plats that people have worked hard to earn, and put it back into the game. We need some serious plat sinks in the game just for the games sake. Repairing arrows, housing, guildhalls bring something in that will keep the low-mid level players here and interested. As players progress, looking for that next spellcircle, one may think to themselves, what to do until I'm 50!?! Well give them something to do is what I say, and with the pbase the way it is now, there won't be any new life injected into this beutiful game, just the same people. (Not that I have anything against anyone that here!) In order to keep a game such as Toril alive there must be constant or a flow of new content (areas, new code etc.) brought in to entice the older and newer playerrs into staying. 2.0 will be GREAT for the first 2 weeks, but after that lets be honest with ourselves, how many of the the older players will stick around to learn a new game, new techniques, new everything. I will for one, but for how long who knows. Once again this is not intended to be flames, just a player that has enjoyed the game for 10+ years and don't wanna see it go down in flames. Remember always to have a great day!
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Postby Gormal » Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:46 am

I wanted to highlight what I've decided is a huge problem since I started playing WoW. Our unlimited storage capacity. Forcing characters to carefully choose what they keep on their person has a drastic affect on their adaptability and power. If rogues could only keep 4 different poisons, and only 30 of each; how much more would they have to work to keep stockpiled?

Wow gives you a severely limited number of carried items, and your bank is small too, with expensive purchasable bag slots. (I'm level 50 and have only been able to afford 4, and don't want to waste the money on a 4th yet.) It forces me to either a) store things on an alt via delayed delivery mail system (god i wish we could mail eq); or b) get rid of it.

I would love to see bag sizes smaller, and a smaller limit on the number of items we can carry. The problem with this is obviously long-term rareload questing. At any given time, people can have around oh.. a bazillion quest items. If load rates were bumped up, it would force people to focus on a couple quests at once... which might help people by not having to compete for quests as much.

Just tossing more ideas out there.
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Postby Jurdex » Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:41 am

Gormal wrote:I wanted to highlight what I've decided is a huge problem since I started playing WoW. Our unlimited storage capacity. Forcing characters to carefully choose what they keep on their person has a drastic affect on their adaptability and power. If rogues could only keep 4 different poisons, and only 30 of each; how much more would they have to work to keep stockpiled?

Wow gives you a severely limited number of carried items, and your bank is small too, with expensive purchasable bag slots. (I'm level 50 and have only been able to afford 4, and don't want to waste the money on a 4th yet.) It forces me to either a) store things on an alt via delayed delivery mail system (god i wish we could mail eq); or b) get rid of it.

I would love to see bag sizes smaller, and a smaller limit on the number of items we can carry. The problem with this is obviously long-term rareload questing. At any given time, people can have around oh.. a bazillion quest items. If load rates were bumped up, it would force people to focus on a couple quests at once... which might help people by not having to compete for quests as much.

Just tossing more ideas out there.


Jake, I loved that aspect of WoW .. it certainly made you pine away for bags, didn't it?

One way to get around it might be to have a "quest bag" and any quest items could be flagged to be put in it? Sort of like the herbalism packs.

Just a thought.

It'd also make having a vault pretty awesome..

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Postby Tasan » Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:01 am

When I talk about dumbed down, I mean things like having teleports to move about.

Why have roads at all then, you could just delete every one of the zones that doesn't serve any purpose other than filler and just have the 6-7 zones that continually draw people, wouldn't that be stellar?

And for those complaining to me about not supporting ideas like these... take notice farther down the board where I started a thread for ideas JUST like these that everyone ignored, where in fact I put my own suggestions for "building code" and fixing the economy.

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Postby Jurdex » Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:01 am

bawog wrote:As I much agree with Dornax with his ideas for the MUD, there are a few things that need to be adresssed with this first. Lets take a look at equipment for example. Ok now I've been back merely 2-3 years give or take, and already I have 4x EQ sets and have no problem spreading the gear around for certain situations. Most people log on looking at us 50's saying to themselved "Wow I want to be that level" 50 in and of itself is a pretige to the newer players, and even tho their journey has just begun at 50 there should be other things to do in between. Now have a few level 50's and I as well become bored with the constant zoning, trying to "deck" out my character. However this is to be expected of some people, and with some of Dornax's ideas this would not just be a temporary band-aid, but more so a fixture to the MUD in and of itself. In terms of the trade system...I can remember doing it religously as my paladin, GREAT code, something to do when I was turned down for zone (and yes I know not many knew me back then but its all good) Now lets take a look at the current MUD economy...
Ok now the economy has pretty gone to crap to be honest, as Dornax has posted above there is a surplus of plats, and nothing to do with it. I can remember when I first came back to the MUD I can remember sitting around hoping that there would something good popping up on the auction house, but now its just a plat farm. When my plat reserves get low, I come around and list a few items just to get it back. Lets say that we have something as in a house, castle, shop, or IMAGINE THIS guildhalls to invest in!!!! Now I know the code is there to import, this would return some of the plats that people have worked hard to earn, and put it back into the game. We need some serious plat sinks in the game just for the games sake. Repairing arrows, housing, guildhalls bring something in that will keep the low-mid level players here and interested. As players progress, looking for that next spellcircle, one may think to themselves, what to do until I'm 50!?! Well give them something to do is what I say, and with the pbase the way it is now, there won't be any new life injected into this beutiful game, just the same people. (Not that I have anything against anyone that here!) In order to keep a game such as Toril alive there must be constant or a flow of new content (areas, new code etc.) brought in to entice the older and newer playerrs into staying. 2.0 will be GREAT for the first 2 weeks, but after that lets be honest with ourselves, how many of the the older players will stick around to learn a new game, new techniques, new everything. I will for one, but for how long who knows. Once again this is not intended to be flames, just a player that has enjoyed the game for 10+ years and don't wanna see it go down in flames. Remember always to have a great day!


It's very true. I'm not sure with the way the mud is now, having been up for so long without a wipe and the issues that are inherent in that stability that these ideas will really help without either a wipe or some serious consideration of the excessive amount of items and plat that are already infused in the game.

I'm not sure portals would dumb down the game.. personally I'd rather a flying mount take me from town to town.. it'd be neat to see "Gormal flies southward on a griffon" or some such thing. I also think such travel would require a hefty price tag.. but it'd allow for transit from town to town where you can AFK (btw, how many of you speedwalk places anyway? seriously..) during the ride and be safe when you land.. just some neat flavor and an economic stimulus..

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Postby Gormal » Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:26 pm

Dornax wrote:(btw, how many of you speedwalk places anyway? seriously..)


Or keep a ridiculous supply of teleport potions on hand to skip the filler zones.
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:35 pm

Tasan wrote:Why have roads at all then, you could just delete every one of the zones that doesn't serve any purpose other than filler


Frankly, I think that speaks for itself. If we have tons of zones which are just filler, and only a few that people actually want to visit... there is aSERIOUS problem here.

Zones should have compelling reasons to visit them. Even the low level ones. If they don't have that it doesn't matter whether or not we have teleport, they just become nothing more than time sinks keeping you from reaching the interesting zones.
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Postby Tasan » Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:22 pm

Sarvis wrote:Zones should have compelling reasons to visit them. Even the low level ones. If they don't have that it doesn't matter whether or not we have teleport, they just become nothing more than time sinks keeping you from reaching the interesting zones.


Can't...believe... agreeing... with... Sarvis...

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Postby Corth » Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:59 am

Some good posts in this thread..

I've been avoiding the toril 2.0 forum. I didn't realize that this was where all the gameplay discussion was happening. I'm also really encouraged by all the pwipe discussion and the fairly strong support for one in conjunction with 2.0. I guess its not surprising that most of the people who support pwipe the most are those who no longer play regularly.

The mud has a multitude of problems that have not been addressed for way too long. The "Toril 2.0" thing can be a double edged blade. On one hand, it can be a good excuse to rethink the game to its core fundamentals, and implement some important things like the functioning economy that jurdex and gurns in their own way advocate. It can be a fresh start, which I think should occur simultaneously with a pwipe. On the other hand, it can also be a way for the gods to deflect criticism as the mud slowly withers away. I've been hearing a lot of 'that will be addressed in toril 2.0' responses to players from the powers that be, without any indication of what their 2.0 time frame is. As players of sojourn/toril we are used to big promises that don't pan out.

In any event, its good to see some of the old timers who perhaps don't play much anymore trying to contribute in these threads. We all have different personalities. Some of us can be entertained leveling our 12th alt to level 50. Others get bored doing the same stuff all the time and leave. I tend to think that the people who bore easily often have the better ideas about how to make the mud more interesting. Point being that the people currently playing (and administrating) the game are not necessarily as qualified to improve it as those who left long ago. So definately glad to see some old timers who don't play so much posting in this thread.

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Postby Dalar » Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:46 pm

Gormal wrote:What is dumbed down about tradeskills, questing for experience, or balanced gameplay? Toril is the only MMO I've ever played until I picked up WoW a few weeks ago. While I love Toril's flavor and atmosphere, I feel like I've been missing out on a lot over the past few years though. Maybe when I hit 70 a couple times and do a lot of the endgame zones, I'll try out Toril again; but my interest is gone as the game is now. Fiddling around with a new gameplay system isn't enough for me to consider playing again.


You won't unless you are stuck being casual and only doing heroics.

Toril 1.0 needed an economy and more gear/money oriented goals. Remember in Sojourn 1 where Relias or whatever that paladin's name was traded gear as like a lvl 1 paladin and had a decent set of gear to level with? He did it buying low and selling high with platinum. There's no cash sink (dispel magic potions don't count) and there's defintely no equipment sink in the current game. So the only real thing to do in game was get yourself one set of good gear and you're done. In WoW, you are always updating your gear to go for the next tier of bosses. In Toril, you really only need 1 set and you're pretty much good to go because zones seem tiered by length of . If you ever looked at my gear it had some pretty crazy gear selection but most of it was pretty attainable except for dkind. It was kind of sad when I was in reach of any gear I wanted as a caster, yet I wore ringmail from crypts because it was hands down one of the best caster items in game.

Area designers messed up here by making a non-tiered difficulty system. I love WoW and the whole velious/PoP concept where you have to farm one tier of zones to gain access and to even kill the next tier of bosses. People love that system and that's why WoW's end-game population is there. In Toril, you didn't really need great gear to complete hard zones except for Tiamat. Also, there were so many similar items that you'd do one zone and everyone would want one item because the other items were worthless or had similar stats to an easy to get item.
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Postby Kegor » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:01 am

First off I want to say great topic Jurdex. Lot of good posts from everyone else too. Your posts have made me do some more thinking on the matter as far as some of the ways of identifying what needs to be done, general concepts, and possible ways to go about implementing the concepts.

The Economy:

We really do need to make the game have features that real life does, such as personal homes that can be purchased, and vehicles of some sort that can be purchased to fly you around the world.

Without these elements in place, there is nothing to spend your money on except eq, which doesn't really help the overabundance of eq problem. These two things would also do a great deal to keep people working toward goals and give them more toys play with, while serving a purpose towards stimulating zoning.

Building Code:

We don't have building code because we still don't have OLC fine tuned, or even working yet. OLC is neccessary to put live building code in place. It is also extremely valuable for zone creation. I have been pushing for OLC ever since I used it writing zones and creating guildhalls on homeland.

I thought for sure Vhaerun was going to be put on that task as a priorety project when he was made a coder. I'm not sure if he is still around from time to time flying under the radar, but someone should give him a call and see if he can help out with getting OLC and Building Code ready for 2.0.

OLC is a vital and important tool to this style of game. Lets get it done.

It's pretty much a no brainer to say that building code would help the economy. Hell, I think it might even solve the problem single handedly. For it to work right, it would have to be accessable to both individuals, and associations seperately, as to make it more easily to spend money on. Maybe you would have to be level 50 to apply for a building permit for the immortals or something. There is a lot of different ways you could make this encourage people to playing the game to its fullest so they can have access to that toy. 1 room allowed per 10 levels for a price, 100 more after 50 for an even bigger price?

Players would have to have thier rooms placements approved by admins as not to be built in to innappropriate areas, or a room flag could eventually be added to allow for automated building approval in certain spots only. The admins would also have the important job of checking over peoples OLC work in creating thier new rooms, editing or touching up to fit the style of the rest of the mud, much like they do with player names and titles now.

What a concept, it makes me want it to happen right now so I can spend some of that useless money I have. Better yet, pwipe me, and make me earn it again in a somewhat new and different mud. That would be sweet.

Transportation:

I vaguely recall an idea I had a long time ago about transport code also. Mine had to do with personal player airships that costed an insane amount of money that only the characer that purchased it could operate.Basically the idea was, you would be able to fly to every major town for a huge one time fee of buying your airship. Even if you didn't take this idea to the next level by loading it up with features and additional costs, it would still do a lot to spice up the game and serve a valuable purpose, all just for saving the player a little time.

Artifacts & Rares:

Artifacts and unique meta-rare items are awesome. Not too many people would disagree with that. So why aren't they in the game? What we need is a lot of 1% rare mobs in every zone, packing a very nice piece of NOLOCATE eq. Omg Ymir! except with just 1 piece of top shelf gear not a couple outdated crapo items that got walked on by other zones and overlooked in eq balance modifications. Studded diamond ring is a good example of this working nicely. I would also like to see this added to lower level zones also, hometowns even. Balanced accordingly of course, but something nice that would still serve a secondary purpose being worn at higher levels.

This same concept should be applied to one time only RP god loaded artifacts of Tiamat quality. One being found per month or two on random picked end of zone type mobs, or just special unique mobs native to zones that are powerfull and fit the profile to have something badass etc. Since these artifacts would be premade by the heads of the areas sphere, and thier introduction and distrobution being regulated bigtime by the RP sphere, I don't see how this couldn't be implemented.

Eq Balance:

I also tend to be of the thinking that level restricting gear would be the way to go. I know how much work that would be to comb through every single piece of gear in the game and give it a level restriction and possibly new stats with regard to other items on the same tier of eq, but it would definately be worth it. I'm not sure how long a project of that nature would take a team of four people each assigned to a tier of eq based on the level of thier god, but sounds like fun to me. The sooner something like this happens, the better off we will all be.

Summary:

All of these things in combiniation with a pwipe, and you got yourself a pretty balanced mud economy. I only covered the more glamorous topics here, but there definately other things that would also be very nice to incorporate. Like hard coded system reboot schedules, automating some gameplay features that are tedious or that everyone uses triggers for, and some other little things here and there that I can't think of right now.

But anyways, this post is long enough. I hope this thread, and all things being discussed here, is getting attention upstairs. There is some good stuff here.
Last edited by Kegor on Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jurdex » Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:43 am

How ya doing, Gene? :)

It's been a while, but I agree that a lot of older players that enjoyed this game thoroughly can attest to the wonderful aspects the game still provides compared to other alternatives while also being able to include a multitude of fresh possibilities that would enrich this world and thus boost the playerbase and more importantly the overall gaming experience..

After a while, once you play this game day after day and year after year, you tend to become so entrenched in it that an outside perspective is not only beneficial but almost necessary.

Fascinating concept, Jaz, about the airships.. I'm not certain it fits in the theme of FR (I've only read a few of the novels), but I do think some form of transportation is needed.. be it flying vessels or animals or mages/druids that moonwell you/portal you there..

Also, I loathe the fact that we don't know what mobs are once you're a higher level..

I can con a lower level mob.. it tells me it is easy.. then it absolutely whoops my backside..

I propose that once you're a higher level than a mob, you should be able to discern it's level and all of the classes it possesses..

For example, if I'm a level 35 cleric, I've probably been around every type of adventurer there is around my own level, so if I see a level 30 warrior/thief/druid, I should be able to watch him and while considering him pick up on those different characteristics, right?

Especially since I'm actually more battle-tested (a higher level).. right?

Sort of like when you make level 20 you can see the numbers of your stats?

Making a thriving and vibrant economy will make 100+ hour boots interesting.

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Postby Lilira » Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:49 am

Jurdex wrote:Also, I loathe the fact that we don't know what mobs are once you're a higher level..

I can con a lower level mob.. it tells me it is easy.. then it absolutely whoops my backside..


Can't remember the exact formula, but I think mob cons are based on a warrior's abilities. Also when you get higher level there really is no reason why it wouldn't be for a group.

Also keep in mind something we don't see are the mud's To-hit and damage rolls. Dang thing could just roll really well. I can spend a day on airship farming the alchemist and 3 out of 4 fights are easy peasy, but MAN... that 4th fight.... slam bam RIP ma'am.
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Postby Tasan » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:38 pm

Lilira wrote:Can't remember the exact formula, but I think mob cons are based on a warrior's abilities. Also when you get higher level there really is no reason why it wouldn't be for a group.


Consider is a different message based on level difference, that's it. There is no secret formula, which may or not be a problem.

Lilira wrote:Also keep in mind something we don't see are the mud's To-hit and damage rolls. Dang thing could just roll really well. I can spend a day on airship farming the alchemist and 3 out of 4 fights are easy peasy, but MAN... that 4th fight.... slam bam RIP ma'am.


Mobs roll to see what their stats are when they are born too. Some get lucky :p
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Postby Botef » Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:40 pm

Jaznolg wrote:Building Code:

It's pretty much a no brainer to say that building code would help the economy. Hell, I think it might even solve the problem single handedly. For it to work right, it would have to be accessable to both individuals, and associations seperately, as to make it more easily to spend money on. Maybe you would have to be level 50 to apply for a building permit for the immortals or something. There is a lot of different ways you could make this encourage people to playing the game to its fullest so they can have access to that toy. 1 room allowed per 10 levels for a price, 100 more after 50 for an even bigger price?

Players would have to have thier rooms placements approved by admins as not to be built in to innappropriate areas, or a room flag could eventually be added to allow for automated building approval in certain spots only. The admins would also have the important job of checking over peoples OLC work in creating thier new rooms, editing or touching up to fit the style of the rest of the mud, much like they do with player names and titles now.

What a concept, it makes me want it to happen right now so I can spend some of that useless money I have. Better yet, pwipe me, and make me earn it again in a somewhat new and different mud. That would be sweet.

[


One of the things I liked about another mud I used to play in '95 that featured player/guild homes was the process of securing your land. On this particular MUD the gods had quite a handful of game-oriented tasks such as running invasions , running quest events and handling land sales.

The way it worked was really cool. There was a land aquisitions office that was run by the immortal staff in just about every hometown and some other towns as well. Every now and then a piece of land in the town would be put up for sale. The locations varied depending on how the staff wanted to expand upon the town or utilize the current space. One a piece of land (or several) were listed a date would be set for the land to be auctioned off. Players would then come to the auction to submit there bids for the land.

Building on the space cost additional amounts of platinum and was restricted to the size of the space you purchased (from 1 room homes to larger castle like structures). Some pieces of land already had buildings in place, and purchasing them just got you the key and the ability to rent/store stuff there. It also cost additional plats to demolish a current structure.

In turn, players could put their land up for sale to be auctioned the next time one is held. This gave some players an added element of gameplay - buying land, building (writing) cool houses and then selling them off.

That combined with a players ability to turn land into other functions besides homes (shops, hangouts, warehouses (player run storage caches with a imposed fee), skill practice areas (automatons!), etc.) made for a really cool economy system that made money really valuable.

I'm sure there are lots of people on here who would be more than willing to develop an outline for a system like this, myself included. I certainly will be thrilled if this feature alone was added as its something I've sorely missed.
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Postby Jurdex » Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:38 pm

Botef, that sounds absolutely awesome .. and it might be something that would utilize the RP sphere in a capacity that may have never been envisioned.. actually being able to shape the gameworld. Talk about real politics.. perhaps you have to be a land owner to do certain things in the game such as have access to certain castles or royalty in certain towns and gain quests from them.. it would give you standing and gain you an audience with that figure..

Very cool stuff.

Also, who is NOT in favor of knowing a mobs' classes and level?

I don't feel it would detract from the realism at all and add a huge benefit to players that isn't unbalancing.

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Postby Todrael » Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:57 am

Rather than going through every item of EQ and putting a level cap on it, why not just cap the bonuses based on level? If you're level 10, you can only get a max of +1 dam from any particular item, or only +10hp, with a scale whereby you get full bonuses at level 40 or so. Would be a lot less work for the areas sphere.

As far as economy goes, something to spend the money on isn't the only change that would help. When recently asked, I came up with a list of things that I feel would change the way Toril's economy functions for the better:

1) make coins not weigh anything.
2) make an autolooter for coins.
3) make all coins autolooted while in a group go to a group coffer easy to split when the group's over.
4) make banks able to transfer coins between any two chars at no cost.
5) eliminate conversion rates on coins.
6) set the 'value' attribute on all equipment properly.
7) have non-equipment value for cash, such as player owned buildings or forms of equip/char customization (renames, etc).
8) do not allow transfer of equipment between characters.

Don't get hung up on that last one; it's just a suggestion.
-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
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Lilira
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Postby Lilira » Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:48 am

Todrael wrote:8) do not allow transfer of equipment between characters.

Don't get hung up on that last one; it's just a suggestion.


Games like Evercrack have it so you cannot trade an item once you "bind" it to yourself. Equip has to be bound to give the beneficial properties. When you've outgrown it, you sell it in a shop. This does not allow you to pass down gear, yet you still get some money back when you're done with the gear.
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You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
Jurdex
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Postby Jurdex » Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:15 am

Todrael wrote:Rather than going through every item of EQ and putting a level cap on it, why not just cap the bonuses based on level? If you're level 10, you can only get a max of +1 dam from any particular item, or only +10hp, with a scale whereby you get full bonuses at level 40 or so. Would be a lot less work for the areas sphere.

As far as economy goes, something to spend the money on isn't the only change that would help. When recently asked, I came up with a list of things that I feel would change the way Toril's economy functions for the better:

1) make coins not weigh anything.
2) make an autolooter for coins.
3) make all coins autolooted while in a group go to a group coffer easy to split when the group's over.
4) make banks able to transfer coins between any two chars at no cost.
5) eliminate conversion rates on coins.
6) set the 'value' attribute on all equipment properly.
7) have non-equipment value for cash, such as player owned buildings or forms of equip/char customization (renames, etc).
8) do not allow transfer of equipment between characters.

Don't get hung up on that last one; it's just a suggestion.


I agree with most of what you said, and I said to a friend of mine the other day that our banks should allow us to transfer money to another player. Maybe this could be done for a small fee..

What's your reasonings on why money should be weightless, though?

Neat concept on items not giving their full bonuses.. either soulbinding equipment like Lilira mentioned WoW and other games do would limit the influx of items or also perhaps making every item you loot sellable..

It's annoying when you find weapons you can't sell.

Dornax
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Postby Todrael » Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:28 pm

The primary reason to have coins weigh something is 'realism'. It makes the game seem more like reality, where carrying a lump of gold takes a lot of effort. That, and most equipment weighs something, so why not coins as well? Another reason is to limit people from looting too many, and therefore requiring them to take a break from their exping or the like. If you can think of other reasons for having coin weight, let me know.

The main reason to have coinage be weightless: convenience. It facilitates fighting for cash, and it facilitates selling and buying of eq.

You can carry a few thousand gold if you're of the appropriate strength. That's already far outside reality. And the number, quality, and frequency of weightless bags has gone through the roof in the last few years. We already have lots of weightless equipment, like some boats and scrolls.

Every time something gets added that's weightless, it's for the convenience of the players. People don't want to carry around a 75lb raft just to cross a river. Likewise, they don't want to carry 3k platinum around just in case that rare loads that they need to quest, or for the various keys that cost money. The areas staff has solved the raft problem; the code staff can solve the coins.

If coins don't weigh anything, you don't have to stop to head to the bank. You can just keep going until you feel like stopping. It also means that the 'group coffer' idea is much more feasible. Don't have any one person carry the coins; have them be in a group inventory separate entirely from a person. Still weightless, and available. Just much easier to ensure an even split.

It also means players can head to stores and sell all the 'cash eq', in the case of items being worth their value, and still make it to the bank afterward, or splitting with their group in the case of looting everything in a zone for split.

Weight is a big issue on Toril, despite the proliferation of weightless bags. It serves a game purpose, certainly, yet it has far-reaching effects on many aspects of the game because of that, including the economy. Weightless coins make everything easier.
-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
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Tasan
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Postby Tasan » Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:23 pm

Todrael wrote:Weightless coins make everything easier.


Why not just make coins after they are looted go into your "bank account" and just always have access to the cash... not any different than having weightless really.
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Postby Todrael » Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:08 am

Could do that too. Make them not even an item - just something that shows up on score. I really can't remember any other mud that treated coins as an item.
-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
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