I hate rares

Discussion concerning the upcoming Toril 2.0 update as well as general 3.5 edition D&D discussion
Dalar
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I hate rares

Postby Dalar » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:42 am

The thing I hate the most about this game is the onload boot only rares, quests that require them, and rare quest mobs. Looking back on my rise to notoriety, I did a ton of unintentional (most of the time, sometimes I sold it for gear) cockblocking in the past on a ton of quests/rares such as GC, thunderbeast whatever, other GN rares like scorp earrings etc. While I was giving alot of it to other guildmates, this pretty much prevented anyone new from learning it and blocking anyone from doing said quests. What's the point of even having said quests when only a small portion of the playerbase can learn/do it over the course of a few months?

Examples:
Hulburg earring
Erlan and GC lich
Scorpion earring
From what I hear, anything from Comarian Mines

Solution? Change the npcs that load quest items to 100% load and set load rare percentages on the items they have based on their difficulty. Also, make it so they have a smaller chance to load gear every repop.

So for example, Thunderbeast would be a 100% load (meaning the npc is there every pop), but his heart/hide would only be a 1% on pop if he's alive, 5% if he's not alive.

It would be alot of work to do and alot of rebalancing, but it sure makes the game more fun for people who enjoy questing. Ask anyone who's done the above quests and ask if it's currently worth it. There are so many obsolete quest items they're just a waste of time.

P.S. Keep the flames to yourself and post constructively.
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Postby Corth » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:36 am

The way I saw it, quest rares made a lot of sense for those of us who were exploring and learning new zones. I was the original oakvale (oakdale?) guy. Used to run out to shaes every boot and once in a while would find something new. That, for me, was a lot of fun. But once all of the quests are figured out by one or two people, the fun is over. Then it just becomes a tedious process of waiting for them to pop again. Nobody gets to experience it the same way that the first people did.

Rares that load within zones and have actual EQ that you might use, on the other hand, like YMIR, were awesome. You would be doing a zone for whatever reason, and all of a sudden, BAM!, you find an awesome rare loaded and it was all gravy. Thats the kind of rare that I was always fond of.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby Dalar » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:46 pm

Great example Corth. Oakvale is an awesome example of how silly rares can be. The dryad was a lvl 30 npc that loaded on boot only and had a rare needed for the whole oakvale line. It was pretty difficult to beat one of us (Corth, myself, or other DSR members) and it showed with the low amount of oakvale gear.
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Postby moritheil » Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:14 am

It seems that you're suggesting that the mobs load 100% but just without the item. This is still useless to someone who needs the item to do the quest. Why go through the extra step of loading the mob if it's not going to have the item either way?

Apart from that you seem to be suggesting that they load over time, which sounds fine to me, though I don't know that I agree with your exact numbers.
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Postby Solak » Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:40 pm

It seems that you're suggesting that the mobs load 100% but just without the item. This is still useless to someone who needs the item to do the quest. Why go through the extra step of loading the mob if it's not going to have the item either way?


It can help people to discover quests easier. At least when i learn where mob is, i can check there easier. For example, I look for a mob in underdark and i have to look almost whole underdark to find a mob which I don't have any idea what it looks like. But if it loads 100%, at least I can learn which mob I look for.
And about rare quest mobs; they should load 100% too. Because people, at least new ones, can learn more quests and try to discover them.
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Postby Ifin » Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:32 am

Simply making rares load over time instead of only at boot can solve a bunch of problems. Again, it would be if a rare is currently 20% load, now make it have a say 2% chance to load every 30 min zone pop, so over an ideal 80 hr boot it'd have a total chance to load 20%.

Now at each point in time a new person exploring can have some chance of discovering that mob, instead of "abuse" like what Dalar mentioned. And it'd add activity, etc.

All mobs loading 100% would be boring to see, and some quests have MAJOR points tied into questing mob %. And it takes away some challenge.

Having % eq load/mob death would also just make everything like Airship/CM/Bryn, which I don't know if it would be a good thing.

I would add a suggestion that rare mobs you turn eq to, instead of *poofing*, it'll reload a different mob that just gives out the quest details but you can't quest (like original mobs says "i need hide of tbeast", then someone quests him, new mob would be different ansi and respond to keyword by saying "an adventurer found me hide of tbeast and was amply rewarded").

That would keep the overall framework intact, but b/c the turn-in mobs usually give the info so you can kind of know what to look out for, quest people can have a chance to explore themselves even if people are twinking it, and also judge to see if a load rate is messed up or not.

And then they can try to run to the area and be first to quest it if it's up when they gather the items.
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Postby Botef » Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:11 pm

I think another benefit to load over boot rares vs. at boot only rares is that people will have increased incentive to keep quest info to themselves. Currently the most lucrative quest items that load only at boot are monopolized by a handful of people who have high play times and are on during boots. What I see happen is someone gets stuck on a particular step because the rare they need is so difficult to find and they ask around for info. People are quite willing to share info because knowing where a rare loads currently has little value unless your able to be on when it boots and be the first one there.

Competition for soloable rares is limited to a very tight window, a matter of hours or less usually, which means competition is primarily limited to being on at boots - rather than knowing where something loads and checking it frequently. Telling X amount of people about it doesn't negate your chances much when a handful of people with greater play times horde rares that load at boots. As a result the effort required in catching a rare is greatly diluted because of this small window. The hard part isn't persistent checking, its being on at the right time in the right place (rented/camped nearby at boot).

Currently there is little point in running around checking rares 40+ hours into boot. This leaves a huge hole in the playability of the game from a non-zoning aspect and means sitting around waiting for a boot or a zone group, rather than exploring and checking rares. You do your rounds at boot, see what loaded and what didn't and your done till next boot or a zone group forms.

During peak ptimes a reboot brings a flurry of activity that dies down within a couple hours. If more rares were loaded over the course of the boot you'd have increased incentive to explore and hunt rares at ANY time during a boot, increased incentive to keep quests secret and a greater number of people actually working on quests at any given moment.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:47 pm

Botef is right. Also, what about making during boot rares to be able to load again? Just in case of 80 hr + boots.
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Postby Kegor » Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:28 am

I don't think any member of the staff would disagree that these ideas have merit being applied to mobs and zones that would warrant them. However, I think that it might be a very tall order for the areas sphere to complete with a limited time frame. Not to mention other projects they might be working on that would be deemed more important.

I think one person could probably make the changes very accurately using existing techniques within two weeks, even if that person only had 3-4 hours a day to give. You would have to have different degrees of distribution systems based on the rareload percentages of individual mobs. One could even "cookie cutter" these varying degrees of distrobution very easily and insert them into the zone files. Then just line up the vnums. Only challenges that I can think of would be on the zones that used up every single room available in it's range. Even then, it still wouldn't be impossible to do.

I hope it will be considered. I don't think anyone could argue the fact that it would be a much better system of rare loading for a number of zones and mobs.
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Postby moritheil » Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:46 pm

Wouldn't balancing it be a mess, though? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for more distributed loads, but a lot of super rare quests wouldn't take too well to being standardized at a 5% or whatever load rate.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:15 pm

moritheil wrote:Wouldn't balancing it be a mess, though? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for more distributed loads, but a lot of super rare quests wouldn't take too well to being standardized at a 5% or whatever load rate.


i don't remember the EQ calculator caring that much about rares.
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Postby moritheil » Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:35 am

Dalar wrote:
moritheil wrote:Wouldn't balancing it be a mess, though? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for more distributed loads, but a lot of super rare quests wouldn't take too well to being standardized at a 5% or whatever load rate.


i don't remember the EQ calculator caring that much about rares.


We aren't operating on the EQ calculator currently. I guess the changeover happened while you were out. There are also historical superrares from before the EQ calculator.

Surely you agree that balance is not limited to the exact factors that the EQ calc accounts for. Rarity must be one of them.

And even if you don't think much of rarity as a balancing factor, do you really want to make every quest have the exact same load odds? That eliminates variety right there.
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Postby Dalar » Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:09 am

Don't the oakvale items still suck ass? That veil is insanely rare.
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Postby moritheil » Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:21 am

Dalar wrote:Don't the oakvale items still suck ass? That veil is insanely rare.


Moritheil wrote:And even if you don't think much of rarity as a balancing factor, do you really want to make every quest have the exact same load odds? That eliminates variety right there.



So, do you feel that rarity by itself holds no value? Should everyone wear the same gear, and have put forth exactly the same amount of effort to get it? Do you feel that irregularities in difficulty add no flavor to the game? Do you feel that an areas creator has no right to determine how hard his or her area is? More importantly, when what the writer thinks and what you think don't agree, whose vision do you honestly believe should prevail?

Perhaps the most interesting answer would be to this question: Did you have fun competing or cooperating with other players along the way?

That may sound a little harsh, but remember that you're on the very high end of the game with respect to gear and whatnot. Your ideas of what is good and what is worth your effort are bound to be different from the norm. You're also one of maybe three prime candidates to run into the law of diminishing returns, since the better your gear gets, the harder you have to work to make any progress toward even better gear.

If you insist on thinking about it in terms of effort and reward, maybe you can think about this: suppose you go well out of your way to buy a lottery ticket in a neighboring state. You have a shot at a big prize that you didn't otherwise have. However, most of the time you still aren't actually going to win the big prize. Statistically, however, it can still be worth doing. Not every ticket you buy has to be a winner - it just has to have the chance of being a winner in order to make the trip worthwile.
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Postby Kegor » Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:45 am

moritheil wrote:Wouldn't balancing it be a mess, though? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for more distributed loads, but a lot of super rare quests wouldn't take too well to being standardized at a 5% or whatever load rate.


You didn't understand the way I explained it I guess. Different distrobution room configurations standardized to simulate rareload percentages by mob wandering chances. Trap rooms, directional teleports, and a way out, all setup differently for a given rare percentage. It wouldn't even take that many rooms. You could even make use of time release doors if you really wanted. There is a number of simple and effective ways it could be done.

These time delay distro systems obviously wouldn't be best for every type of rare in every zone, but at least should be applied to the easily accessible mobs on prime.
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Postby Ifin » Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:20 am

Your arguments make no sense.

Rare load rates do play a role in the value of an item, ie a lot of "THE khanjari" value is from a ZK/Musp/CP rare w/low load %.

Rare loading over time would preserve that same load % over an "ideal" boot time.

So what's the issue except _______ or the fact that ALMIGHTY 2.0 IS ABOUT TO COME IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And this way, even in those rare times that boots last over "ideal" boot time, there's still an increasing % that the boot will load, making it a win-win situation.

But honestly, this thread was specifically brought up before w/a specific imm response that they won't mess w/rares loading over time b/c it might be an RP issue - which makes no game sense at all.
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Postby Disoputlip » Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:05 pm

If we pretend all boots last 10 hours. Then the rares could just arrive during those 10 hours.

Their rareness would be the same, and we wouldn't have all rares checked 1 hour after boot.
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Postby Dalar » Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:55 pm

Ifin wrote:Your arguments make no sense.

Rare load rates do play a role in the value of an item, ie a lot of "THE khanjari" value is from a ZK/Musp/CP rare w/low load %.

Rare loading over time would preserve that same load % over an "ideal" boot time.

So what's the issue except _______ or the fact that ALMIGHTY 2.0 IS ABOUT TO COME IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And this way, even in those rare times that boots last over "ideal" boot time, there's still an increasing % that the boot will load, making it a win-win situation.

But honestly, this thread was specifically brought up before w/a specific imm response that they won't mess w/rares loading over time b/c it might be an RP issue - which makes no game sense at all.


So get rid of the all powerful items that are the result of extremely low % load rate quests. It's getting ridiculous. At the very least please make new zones have a minimum of 25% loadrate. Anything lower promotes area gods leaking information.
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Postby Ifin » Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:27 am

I agree - I think big/epic items should be quested through a large variety of high end items instead of relying on extremely low load %'s on easy mobs or just to turn in items to jack up the points value.

But a lot of these items aren't ridiculously overpowered - scorp earring, eyeball earring just to name two that aren't, but rely on super low load rates to justify their value.

To rebalance would mean to rewrite quests, background, rebalance, etc, which would require a substantial effort - so low reward:effort.

But just keeping the framework and changing stuff to load over time I think would be high reward:effort in the meantime imho from all the reasons stated before.
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Postby Kegor » Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:55 am

Well one thing you can't do is rewrite quests. The framework of quests is already laid out, and that can't be changed. That just wouldn't fly with the players at all, not to mention a lot of hours put in by the staff. Changing rareload rates +10% for the better would be good in some cases, in addition to applying the delayed distro system. The sooner we move to something like this, the better. Rare frustration is a serious problem for many players.
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Postby moritheil » Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:14 am

Dalar wrote:At the very least please make new zones have a minimum of 25% loadrate.


Holy crap. So you think Jot should be invaded 25% of the time?

And if not, what justifies forcing new zones with rares (such as invasion loads) to have 25% load rates?

I'm all for making rares etc. accessible to people who can't be on at boot. I don't really see any point in dramatically increasing load rates, though, because that just ends the lifespan of new content that much faster. Unless half of us are going to quit playing and just churn out new zones nonstop, I don't really think we can afford to burn through new content faster than we've burned through content in the past.

Sure, it sucks to the person who never sees a 1% rare quest mob load, but you have to admit that that quest is going to be done much slower than a 10% load. If we measure the lifespan of a zone from when people start doing it to when it's been mined out, quest info is common knowledge, everyone has 10 copies of the items in storage, even newbies refuse to bid on it for 100p at auction, and generally nobody cares for it anymore, increasing rare load rate is only going to worsen the problem, not fix it.

Rare hunting is far to the right on the curve of diminishing efforts for rewards, and how far over we fall on that curve is determined by how much it's worth it to us to be higher on the curve.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:32 am

Way to take my generalization too far! No, but certain things shouldn't be mega rare. I'm helping someone with Inferno and he basically can't finish until both rares load. Looking at a good 2 weeks if we're lucky. Btw anyone seen glimmering chainmail load recently?
Last edited by Dalar on Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:33 am

Nothing personal Brian, this just struck a chord in me and please take it with a grain of salt as I am no questor and we all knew that .. but I guess when you have found all the previous rares before anyone else and it is time to find the new rares that everyone else knows about after you were gone for a looonng time, it gets tedious .. what about all those people who complained about rares when it was YOU finding them and beating them to the mob and questing the mob in front of them? Heck it is a lower pbase, less people clammoring to rarescheck .. shouldnt it be easier for you?

I don't think invasions should be at 25%, thats just silly .. 5 or 10% sure .. invasions are what made the mud in the 90's .. if it loads 1 in 10 boots or 1 in 20 boots, whats wrong with that? I admittedly didnt read the feedback on the jot changes since it was done a few weeks ago ..

And why shouldn't item quest mobs be rare(r) if the return is what you desired (to complete the quest) as long as it does load, that is .. I am sure a mob that is a rare load who never loads (ie: broken) would be looked into by whoever looks into that stuff if you mention it ..
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Postby Ifin » Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:59 am

Invasion loads weren't really mentioned by Dalar.

And it's a question of exactly *how much* a great item's worth is from sheer luck (right place right time) than effort. I wouldn't say to get rid of loads completely, but anything, under say, 10%, might be a tad low like Dalar said.

Let's put it in numbers:

10% - since MUD is generally stable now, and say we strive for ideal let's say 72 hr boot time (3 days), that means that mob will load once a month.

Crashing etc, might make it load every 2+ weeks or so, give or take.

As for if imm's would really know if a load rate is broken or not - I think there's a MAJOR load rate that's messed up atm that's been for the last year or so, but I won't get into it.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:01 am

Those quests were done when reboots and crashes occured multiple times a day. The game was more fun and exciting when there was more oppurtunity to see rares. Now, I just seem to log in, type time, and that determines if I exp or actually go around the MUD. I don't see what's wrong with making certain aspects of the game more long-boot friendly. 25% load rates aren't that drastic when the MUD has been up for 60+ hours. If you want to make anincredibly boring and long game sure. I don't see how gear is justified by being hella rare. EQ did it for the longest time and so has this MUD and look where all the players are. I don't see the future of MMO gaming being a huge campfest like this game has carried along for so long.

And please, for the love of god, when I said 25% on all rares in new zones I didn't mean invasions and shit like that. Use your brains instead of trying to nitpick everything I say.
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Postby moritheil » Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:21 am

Dalar wrote:And please, for the love of god, when I said 25% on all rares in new zones I didn't mean invasions and shit like that. Use your brains instead of trying to nitpick everything I say.


But where do you draw the line? What you're suggesting is so radical that I can't safely assume anything about it. There isn't necessarily a clear delineation between invasion, badass ultra rare, rare, and semi-rare the way you seem to be saying there is. All can exist due to deliberate design. They all use the rareload mechanism and have a chance to load that isn't equal to 100%. Technically even a mob that loads 95% of the time is a "rare" as long as it loads that way. Would you want to make uncommon loads (i.e. higher than 25%) 25% too? What about a load that you can check with locate object; does it really need to be upped to 25% when you can check it from the safety of the inn?

Rather than yell at people to use their brains, why don't you use yours to think about a reasonable plan for implementation rather than just demanding an arbitrary change of everything to a single flat rate of 25%?

Plus, here's the thing:

Way to take my generalization too far! No, but certain things shouldn't be mega rare.


So who gets to decide what should be what?


Oh, and I note that you haven't responded to my point about how raising rare rates chews through in-game content faster, thereby hastening the eventual decline of the mud. Could it be because this is true and you have no way to counter it, but would still prioritize your personal convenience over the long-term existence of the MUD?
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Postby Dalar » Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:00 am

moritheil wrote:
Dalar wrote:And please, for the love of god, when I said 25% on all rares in new zones I didn't mean invasions and shit like that. Use your brains instead of trying to nitpick everything I say.


But where do you draw the line? What you're suggesting is so radical that I can't safely assume anything about it. There isn't necessarily a clear delineation between invasion, badass ultra rare, rare, and semi-rare the way you seem to be saying there is. All can exist due to deliberate design. They all use the rareload mechanism and have a chance to load that isn't equal to 100%. Technically even a mob that loads 95% of the time is a "rare" as long as it loads that way. Would you want to make uncommon loads (i.e. higher than 25%) 25% too? What about a load that you can check with locate object; does it really need to be upped to 25% when you can check it from the safety of the inn?

Rather than yell at people to use their brains, why don't you use yours to think about a reasonable plan for implementation rather than just demanding an arbitrary change of everything to a single flat rate of 25%?

Plus, here's the thing:

Way to take my generalization too far! No, but certain things shouldn't be mega rare.


So who gets to decide what should be what?


Oh, and I note that you haven't responded to my point about how raising rare rates chews through in-game content faster, thereby hastening the eventual decline of the mud. Could it be because this is true and you have no way to counter it, but would still prioritize your personal convenience over the long-term existence of the MUD?


Personal convenience? Give me a break. Most of the gear I want is from zones anyways. If anything the only rare that has pissed me off lately is for a spell quest for someone else. I believe I said "At the very least please make new zones have a minimum of 25% loadrate. Anything lower promotes area gods leaking information."

moritheil wrote:They all use the rareload mechanism and have a chance to load that isn't equal to 100%. Technically even a mob that loads 95% of the time is a "rare" as long as it loads that way. Would you want to make uncommon loads (i.e. higher than 25%) 25% too? What about a load that you can check with locate object; does it really need to be upped to 25% when you can check it from the safety of the inn?

Look at all the quest eq compared to zone eq. Most of it is comparable or slightly better than zone eq. What's the point of having said gear be a result 1% drop rate? 25% is a good number. Look at the boot records. 60 hours plus. That's 2.5 days. On average with a 25% load rate, you'll get stuff within 10 days. If you think it's too high, make it 10% then, 25 days. 12 people can quest eyeball earrings a year!

Anyways, questing should be fun and not some gimp race as to who can be online all the time. I was in that position in college where I could stay on hella long and race. I have all the gear I need from rares and realize how big of a timesink this game is for marginal upgrades at best.
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Postby moritheil » Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:32 am

Look, I'm not trying to pick a fight. If some random new player complains that he wants things to be easier for him, I understand that and I'll just chalk it up to not being familiar with our ways. My point here is that you and I have been around long enough to appreciate the necessity of taking a long-term approach to things. Other than relying on new content being added faster than it is, as I mentioned above, can you honestly give me a scenario in which 5x or more inflated rare load rates wouldn't ruin the MUD, long-term?

Dalar wrote:Personal convenience? Give me a break. Most of the gear I want is from zones anyways.
. . .
Anyways, questing should be fun and not some gimp race as to who can be online all the time. I was in that position in college where I could stay on hella long and race.


Since you asked, here we go: your schedule changed, therefore you want the MUD's schedule to change so that it suits your playing schedule. That's what people call personal convenience. More specifically:

I believe I said "At the very least please make new zones have a minimum of 25% loadrate."
. . .
I have all the gear I need from rares and realize how big of a timesink this game is for marginal upgrades at best.


So that's why you want changes in NEW zones, eh? :P If you're going to insist that just the new zones be changed, it looks like you specifically want new zones forced to be 25% so you won't miss anything, and never mind the people who are still looking for old zone rares.

Now, if you want to talk about the convenience of everyone as a whole, I don't think that's automatically bad per se, but when it ruins the lifespan of our content I don't think that it's good.

I'm not saying that people should have to be online "all the time" either. I specifically said I'm all for distributing things so they don't all load at boot.

What I take issue with is:
1. Your demand for global changes irrespective of the views of Areas and the writers of zones. Essentially you have consistently failed to acknowledge that any other perspective than gratification of the current pbase (represented by you) might be valid.
2. Dramatically changing rares from 5%, 1%, or whatever they are to a flat 25%.
3. Your brushing aside and ignoring the very real problems that your proposed rare load inflation will create.

Let's return to the second part of your quote:
I have all the gear I need from rares and realize how big of a timesink this game is for marginal upgrades at best.


That's the point. Remember when I said years ago that there would be a diminishing returns curve for the high level game? Or when I pointed it out several posts ago in this thread?

Moritheil wrote:You're also one of maybe three prime candidates to run into the law of diminishing returns, since the better your gear gets, the harder you have to work to make any progress toward even better gear.


I shouldn't need to point out that diminishing returns is what allows the very existence of a high end game. Each incremental improvement has to get a lot harder in order to prevent eq inflation from being a problem. With this kind of curve, eq can be inflated slowly, but it will take so long for the population as a whole to inflate that it's largely a nonissue. Some people will be hardcore enough to do all the quests, and others won't.
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Re: I hate rares

Postby Cirath » Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:55 am

Dalar wrote:Looking back on my rise to notoriety, I did a ton of unintentional (most of the time, sometimes I sold it for gear) cockblocking in the past on a ton of quests/rares... While I was giving alot of it to other guildmates, this pretty much prevented anyone new from learning it and blocking anyone from doing said quests. What's the point of even having said quests when only a small portion of the playerbase can learn/do it over the course of a few months?


You are kidding, right? You admit that you knowingly made it harder for others to learn and/or complete quests, and because of that you want the items for said quests to load more often to fix that problem? Did it even occur to you that the load rates are only really a problem when someone is rushing to rares they have no real use for just because they can?

Rather than advocating that the game change to accommodate assinine behavior, how about campaigning to cease or restrain that mentality (leading by example would certainly be a good start).
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Re: I hate rares

Postby Dalar » Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:53 pm

Cirath wrote:
Dalar wrote:Looking back on my rise to notoriety, I did a ton of unintentional (most of the time, sometimes I sold it for gear) cockblocking in the past on a ton of quests/rares... While I was giving alot of it to other guildmates, this pretty much prevented anyone new from learning it and blocking anyone from doing said quests. What's the point of even having said quests when only a small portion of the playerbase can learn/do it over the course of a few months?


You are kidding, right? You admit that you knowingly made it harder for others to learn and/or complete quests, and because of that you want the items for said quests to load more often to fix that problem? Did it even occur to you that the load rates are only really a problem when someone is rushing to rares they have no real use for just because they can?

Rather than advocating that the game change to accommodate assinine behavior, how about campaigning to cease or restrain that mentality (leading by example would certainly be a good start).


I didn't intentionally cockblock people from doing quests most of the time. I had alot of people I was helping at the time get rares. I personally handed out 10-12 scorp earrings to my guild, including Nomarack, Nokie, I believe Dhurn etc. I've given out tons of quest items in the past to out of guild people as well. If anything, my experience should make myself more credibile to advocating such a change.
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Postby Kegor » Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:20 am

Dalar wrote:Those quests were done when reboots and crashes occured multiple times a day. The game was more fun and exciting when there was more oppurtunity to see rares. Now, I just seem to log in, type time, and that determines if I exp or actually go around the MUD. I don't see what's wrong with making certain aspects of the game more long-boot friendly. 25% load rates aren't that drastic when the MUD has been up for 60+ hours. If you want to make anincredibly boring and long game sure. I don't see how gear is justified by being hella rare. EQ did it for the longest time and so has this MUD and look where all the players are. I don't see the future of MMO gaming being a huge campfest like this game has carried along for so long.


This is an excellent point, and maybe the best case for getting the load rates tweaked. The load percentages that were put in place for most zones in the game do not take into account the long boot times of the present day. No one, up until recently would have ever imagined that we would ever see such a stable mud.

This has been said by a number of players in a number of ways now. What do we have to do to convince the areas sphere?
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Postby Marthammor » Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:27 pm

Since I seen glimmering chainmail loading mentioned, I'll check into it. Last I looked it was loading fine.
As to upping the rare rates, I can't justify it. I know right now it is a total pain in the ass to quest some things due to how infrequently the mud boots. I'll agree that some things may be set too low, and they were likely set that way when the mud booted or crashed every 8-10 hours or so. A lot of new zones that have gone in recently favor the method of having a chance for an item to load at a really low rate each time the mob loads, so you'll eventually get the item you need if you kill the mob enough times. This is mainly done in CM and Airship, but there are a few other places that use it as well.
Some quests just don't make sense for a mob to be there all the time to kill over and over. Thunderbeast comes to mind. Its a rare and elusive (or not, if you know where it is) beast.

Another thing I have to take into consideration is the fact that these days of 70-100+ uptimes will be coming to an end before long. With the introduction of 2.0, I don't care how good a coder Shev is, there will be tons of bugs that will cause crashes. If there were an easy way (an knob, if you will) to multiply the current load rates across the board, I might be for adjusting it up for the time being. The fact is that to do it currently would mean manually adjusting every single one by hand, then having to adjust them back when the stability of the mud changes and things become way too common for how powerful some things are. Which of course would lead to complaints about how we always change stuff that doesn't need changing and so on and so forth.

Some of you are asked for a staff reply, so there's my take on it, take it for what you will.
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Postby Dalar » Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:26 pm

Thanks for checking glimmering chainmail. I was about to mention that today hehe. From what I hear, CM quests are pretty worthless. I've seen most of the results from Airship quests. Both seem to be a huge timesink not worth the rewards. Perhaps Klandan and Yarix (greg) can describe their experiences.

What about Chloracrida? I don't remember her being too rare but she is part of a few quests vs other ancients like alphabet, thunderpeak white, the musp dragons etc. I know some quests require her specific scales, but could you possible add quest entries to accept green scales from musp green? They're both ancients after all.

Also, what about delay loading some of the older rares like Chloracrida, IC rares etc. on a 2-3 day cycle?
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Postby Ifin » Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:00 am

I don't see IC rares much, and they're easy to check.

Why not make them !locate and up the load rate? That way people who really want to quest that stuff are the ones to actually check, instead of casual people who will just kill just because it's up? The quests IC rares are for aren't too major either.

Chlora loads fine - it's like every 2-3 weeks even w/the long boots etc., and is pretty on value for the eq it quests into. Musp green seems to load a tad more frequently, and to say to combine those too would over double those rates.

Only dragon that might have an issue is Infernos. I used to check frequently, and so did Aneku and Nimas, and so it does get checked, but I haven't seen it load in *forever*.
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Re: I hate rares

Postby moritheil » Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:00 am

Dalar wrote:If anything, my experience should make myself more credibile to advocating such a change.


But if you broke the system, that in no way means that the system is itself inherently broken. It means that it only appears broken because you (or others) deliberately choose to break it.

I'm not singling you out here - you are just the easiest target due to your obvious status and wealth, and the fact that you publicly admit to hoarding in the past. There are other people who do rares like fiends and keep them from the rest of the MUD. Just to name a few examples from memory, someone has dozens of pulsing granite amulets, and that's part of why a certain quest item is so rare. A certain elf has about 30 beholder headbands. Yet another two people account for like 95% of the sylphs armbands in the game. Another person already has dozens of a certain nonrare item but does it at boot out of habit, thus resulting in a shortage of that item for others because the item is always gone when they arrive.

All this can be solved by simply changing things to load over time rather than load at boot. That's why I only advocate loading over time, and I don't advocate changing net percentages.

Oh, and I note that not one poster has an answer for the problem of increasing rare percentages leading directly to using up content faster. But despite knowing that it leads to ruin, people are still asking for it. Classic.
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Re: I hate rares

Postby Dalar » Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:33 am

moritheil wrote:
Dalar wrote:If anything, my experience should make myself more credibile to advocating such a change.


But if you broke the system, that in no way means that the system is itself inherently broken. It means that it only appears broken because you (or others) deliberately choose to break it.

I'm not singling you out here - you are just the easiest target due to your obvious status and wealth, and the fact that you publicly admit to hoarding in the past. There are other people who do rares like fiends and keep them from the rest of the MUD. Just to name a few examples from memory, someone has dozens of pulsing granite amulets, and that's part of why a certain quest item is so rare. A certain elf has about 30 beholder headbands. Yet another two people account for like 95% of the sylphs armbands in the game. Another person already has dozens of a certain nonrare item but does it at boot out of habit, thus resulting in a shortage of that item for others because the item is always gone when they arrive.

All this can be solved by simply changing things to load over time rather than load at boot. That's why I only advocate loading over time, and I don't advocate changing net percentages.

Oh, and I note that not one poster has an answer for the problem of increasing rare percentages leading directly to using up content faster. But despite knowing that it leads to ruin, people are still asking for it. Classic.


Dalar wrote:Look at all the quest eq compared to zone eq. Most of it is comparable or slightly better than zone eq. What's the point of having said gear be a result 1% drop rate? 25% is a good number. Look at the boot records. 60 hours plus. That's 2.5 days. On average with a 25% load rate, you'll get stuff within 10 days. If you think it's too high, make it 10% then, 25 days. 12 people can quest eyeball earrings a year!


Slightly better rewards vs zone rewards. Eyeballs are essentially a 4 hp upgrade to what's out there. Sense life is on a dozen items and so is sv petri. Have you even done hulburg, dcult, etc.? Erlan and Kern are a joke.
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Re: I hate rares

Postby moritheil » Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:07 am

Dalar wrote:Slightly better rewards vs zone rewards. Eyeballs are essentially a 4 hp upgrade to what's out there. Sense life is on a dozen items and so is sv petri. Have you even done hulburg, dcult, etc.? Erlan and Kern are a joke.


What are you trying to say here? Questing isn't worth it? We've known for years that there are diminishing returns and that quests only offer marginal upgrades. That's the point. It had to be done that way to avoid eq inflation while still giving everyone something more to strive for. Now only people who are willing to put 500+ hours into obscure quests will accrue a substantial advantage over nonquesting zoners. Despite this, there WILL be people who will do those quests - it may not be me and it may not be you anymore, but Toril has always had and will continue to have addicted hardcore players. (We can't compete with WoW etc. for popularity, graphics, or interface, so it'll have to be addictiveness.) Those players quit once they have done everything.

You're right that viewed by the linear model of gains vs. time or risk, questing isn't efficient. My point is and has always been that you can't apply the same expectations to zoning and questing. You should quest out of a love of questing, not out of the expectation that it will be an efficient way to increase your power. Or at the very least you should just accept that you will put in tremendous amounts of time for minimal power gain - the law of diminishing returns I mentioned.

This is how it's designed.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:39 am

I don't care how it's designed. BC was designed to be a completely retarded piece of crap and it was tuned to be worth it. The same can be said for many other zones. I see little point in maintaining a hardcore structure in a game when the MMO model is slowly moving away from it.

So why can't I apply same expectations to zoning and questing? I'm asking that rares get balanced for the long boots and that they are more visible to people to explore another aspect of the game. When I didn't have the time to quest I use to hate having to wait a few months just to see the next part of the story if I got to see it at all.

And who is to say that the current design is final? There have been so many changes in the past to make this game more friendly. There are many that are coming in 2.0. Why are you against this type of change? To be honest, you haven't done half the quests I've done nor do you know the MUD as well as I do.
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Postby Marthammor » Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:40 am

About glimmering chainmail, it appears that its been looted about once a month. Given the uptimes, and the (in)frequent boots, I'd suggest thats about right.
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Postby moritheil » Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:42 pm

It's interesting that you assert that just because you're obsessed with being better than others, you're therefore more qualified to dictate what the endgame should be. Your posts have increasingly suggested that you either don't see the big picture or don't care about it as long as your personal quest for power can continue unhindered.

Dalar wrote:I don't care how it's designed.


Yes, and your inability to make peace with the intent of writers is what has caused you to complain on the boards for years - usually for upgrades to equipment you obtained after boasting about how hard it was and how you were one of the few to do it.

Why are you against this type of change?


Consider the numerous times I've posted in this thread that it will shorten content lifespan and therefore ruin things. Does that give you an idea? I want the MUD to be around for a long time, and I've been up front about my motives from the start. I note how you've totally dropped the issue of why you're for it at this point.

As a side note, I also think it's pretty silly how you think you should get to dictate to every content creator what they have to do. Way to respect the right of an author to define his or her own work.

To be honest, you haven't done half the quests I've done nor do you know the MUD as well as I do.


To be honest, I doubt you can accurately measure what my understanding is, because you seem to still gauge people solely based on what they wear. My way of thinking has been foreign to you in the past so I'm willing to bet it's foreign to you now. In the past, I chose not to do as many high-end quests because 1. I don't have 12 alts the way you do and need to eq them, and 2. I don't feel the compulsive need to have slightly better gear the way you do. Another 15 hps isn't going to save me when someone mistakenly lures a dozen mobs to group nor is having 5 AC less going to get me killed more often. Sure, I don't look as impressive to those who play the hardcore high-end game, but I made my peace with that long ago. The quests you focus on and are so proud of doing are for people who care about stats enough to put hundreds of hours into slight improvements.

That doesn't mean I haven't helped others complete most quests, and it doesn't mean I don't enjoy questing on my own terms. I don't have a character with ress, but I'm sure you know I've done ress quest with many. I don't have khanjaris, but I'm sure you know I've helped a lot of people do that quest. Same for scorps earing, conquest armor, dragonscale robes, eyeball earring, various musp quests, etc. I know you didn't accuse me of not knowing Erlan/Kerns because you know I can do them. I did the BGR quests for months. Did you? I don't think so, because you already knew that they wouldn't make you more powerful - whereas I just wanted to see if there was a great story behind the zone. To each his own, right?

In terms of obscure knowledge, I'm not impressed by your assertion that you're somehow better than any of the rest of the old crowd just because you have better gear. Don't mistake my respect for your achievements in power level (which is a matter of dedication and time) for the idea that you know more overall. I have seen all sorts of stuff from wandering that most people have never seen. I have had items that even Waelos had never seen and didn't know about, and he was famed for years as the ultimate high-end collector. You personally chose not to pay attention to the full depth of content on this MUD because of your focus on high-end stat gear. I chose to be less focused on high-end gear than you.

For all your accomplishments, you haven't really grasped the structure and the utter necessity behind the high-end game being the way it is or we wouldn't have had this long drawn-out conversation. Nor, it seems, have you grasped that not everyone is doing quests solely to increase power. Your obsessive focus helps you achieve a lot, but it apparently robs you of the perspective you need to call for balanced and fair changes that won't ruin the MUD.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:58 pm

Actually, I do read and enjoy the actual lore in quests. I don't care how things are designed because there are always flaws between the development and testing phase. I hear monks were designed to be the best melee class and look where they are now. Oh right they're not here. Wasn't BC final seal quest items made rentable? Wow you used BGR quests as your example. Kern/Erlan are some of the easiest quests to figure out. I never had to do BGR quests because when I came back people told me the quests are broken in some sort of fashion and I didn't like the atmosphere. When you helped people do quests, did you actually check the rares for them? Examples? By extention everyone in DSR, Elders etc. know all those quests? No.

My original argument was a little general, but I'm sure people agree that long boot times does make finding new quests painful. I hear two new zones use a system where they can load anytime during a boot. I hope old world stuff gets converted to that type of system if it makes sense.
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Postby moritheil » Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:34 am

I brought up BGR precisely to demonstrate the way you think about things - your immediate response was it was broken and you couldn't get the rewards. The second thing you mentioned was your interest. And that, I find, is how you operate - rewards first, pleasure second.

Well, I would think it obvious that if you choose to do things on the basis of profit rather than solely based on what you enjoy, you will ultimately find yourself doing things you don't like. Having made the choice to hunt rares for profit, I don't think it's very meaningful to complain that you don't enjoy hunting rares. That's the tradeoff in the decision you made. No one else forces you to do it until you hate it - only you are forcing yourself to do that.

BC final seal quest items made rentable: There you're talking about one specific quest and a long zone. We're having a policy-level discussion. At any rate, the BC thing is a matter of saving your progress so you don't have to do the zone from square one. It is NOT making the actual progress easier to achieve. The closest thing would be breaking up quests to shorter steps so you could save your progress in between, NOT making it load more often. Those are totally different things. Making load rates higher would be more like eliminating BC patrols so you can do the zone faster, thus cheapening the zone and lowering its difficulty. If you want to argue that progress should be easier to save but with the same overall time investment and difficulty, fine, I have no problem with that.

Hunting rares: this is laughable. If you want to talk about rares like zog, tarrasque, dragons, etc, you'd remember that there was a period of time when I led them more often than anyone else. What rare quests are you convinced I know nothing about, anyhow? Oakvale? GN? Clouds? Demi? Airship? Lich quest? You've done some of them more than me but that doesn't mean I never did them and/or don't know about them. Oakvale in particular was hogged by you and a select few others; if you want to blame someone that I didn't do them more often, blame yourself.

If we do something we have a good idea of how hard it is; we don't need to do it repeatedly just to get an idea of where it lies on the difficulty curve. Your assertion that everyone who understands rare questing will automatically agree that it ought to be easier is silly. Do you need to quest multiple dimensional vaults to know how hard that quest is? I've done it about 6 times, beginning to end, with others; if you've done it only once does that make me somehow more of an expert on how hard the quest is? I highly doubt that.

At any rate, we're not accomplishing anything in this thread. You're not interested in giving me a serious, well-considered answer as to how you propose to massively increase rare percentages without ruining content viability over the long term and I'm not interested in hearing you repeatedly talk about how your awesomeness and ability to "cockblock" everyone else on the MUD means everyone should bow to your opinion.

In the end, Areas itself will decide whether anything should be changed. As it should be.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:48 am

I think I would take Inames more seriously and I have no idea who he is.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:37 am

Dalar wrote:I think I would take Inames more seriously and I have no idea who he is.


no you really wouldnt ...

truly
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Postby Ashiwi » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:22 am

I agree that some rares should have different types of loads. I disagree that it should be any easier, especially now when it's not even a competition anymore. Just the lack of people to compete against already makes doing the quests so much easier, then you add on top of that the ease of figuring out the quest (no figuring out at all, you casually mention you want to do it and either people do it for you out of all the pieces they've been hoarding due to boredom, or they take you to do it, or they copy and paste the information straight off a BBS), then just what IS the point of increasing the load rates?

I doubt the rewards could be much more devalued at this point, though, so I guess there's not really any point in not removing the "rare" in rareloads.
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Postby Kegor » Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:53 am

Marthammor wrote:As to upping the rare rates, I can't justify it. I know right now it is a total pain in the ass to quest some things due to how infrequently the mud boots. I'll agree that some things may be set too low, and they were likely set that way when the mud booted or crashed every 8-10 hours or so...


Marthammor wrote:Another thing I have to take into consideration is the fact that these days of 70-100+ uptimes will be coming to an end before long. With the introduction of 2.0, I don't care how good a coder Shev is, there will be tons of bugs that will cause crashes. If there were an easy way (an knob, if you will) to multiply the current load rates across the board, I might be for adjusting it up for the time being. The fact is that to do it currently would mean manually adjusting every single one by hand, then having to adjust them back when the stability of the mud changes and things become way too common for how powerful some things are. Which of course would lead to complaints about how we always change stuff that doesn't need changing and so on and so forth.


Excelent point.

Topic over. Move along, nothing to see here.

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