3.5 Items, Skills, And Abilities, Minimal Gameplay Change

Discussion concerning the upcoming Toril 2.0 update as well as general 3.5 edition D&D discussion
Gizep
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3.5 Items, Skills, And Abilities, Minimal Gameplay Change

Postby Gizep » Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:43 am

First of all, I love this game, always have, always will. I have
nothing but respect for the administrators and their efforts to
keep my dearest love alive.

With that said, I would like to toss in my 2 cents on this upgrade
you have been discussing for months. I have not read anything
in these forums, because quite frankly i am scared of what i might
find.

I feel that a massive change to the system in place could greatly
frustrate and further alienate the current playerbase. So what
I propose is quite simple. Work these changes in slowly, and
as you have always done in the past, pay great attention to detail.

Open a suggestion forum just on this subject with instructions
on how to play the new aspect of the game that you have created
without imposing it upon a player who may or may not understand
or feel comfortable with said change.

Now, i do have a good working knowledge of 3.5 rules, and how they
work in the dungeons and dragons forgotten realms vision. I have
played dungeons and dragons online stormreach, and i found the
system to be intuitive.

Here are a few ways I believe you could implement aspects of 3.5
rules without changing too much of gameplay, based on my experience
as a programmer, as well as my love of games after this genere.

Items and Relics:
Having rewards for adventures for each member of a party based
on that particular characters needs. In dndol there were "missions"
that you could repeditively do, over and over and it became
a grind much like it is now.

I propose that you take this to the next level, design a system
of adventure that supprises your players by changing, and being
un predictable. Currently when we go on an adventure say to izan
or even tiamat, we have a set strategy, if we stray from this
strategy, we die.

If we put some randomness about the adventures, i think it could
keep alot of us who truely want nothing more than adventure
a good warm fuzzy....and maybe a stiffy, perverts.

Example:
You have say a quest master in ghore that does evil above ground
players in mind. He sends you into a randomly generated map, that
has with in it, chests front to back with growing treasure which
is both random and based on that characters needs.

Scale the difficulty based upon the groups makeup, and let them
choose, easy, medium, hard and have rewards scale up as well.

Items in 3.5 are quite simple, you have base items that can have
special properties, and relics that have several. And further
down the road, i havent seen the epic campaigns yet, but
i am looking forward to them.

Each race gets innate skills based on their hometown that can
improve their skills in certain areas, like I noticed that
Waterdeep had the following skills given to all players:
Artist, Cosmopolitan, Education, Smooth Talking, Thug and Twin
Sword Style.

Artist helped bards with their skills, Cosmopolitan helps enchanters
as well as bards, and education gives bonuses to wizard and sorcerer
types. Smooth Talking helps you barter better prices from merchants
as well as making mobs pay less attention to you. Thug obviously
makes you tougher and twin sword style means even mages can dual
wield innately albeit not proficiently.

These skills as well as ones you can chooose to customize your
character could easily be added to the current system as well
as preserving the current system.

These skills combined open a whole new set of abilities based
on your region of birth, class, race and choices. The pre-requisite
skill system could be used to augment the current system, instead
of replacing it all together like i assume you are attempting.

Lower the effectiveness of the current skill system, and let
players augment themselves as they choose. In ddo, we could
reset our skills once a week, which gives you enough practice
to tweak your skills how you want them.

The introduction of player crafting could also open up a whole
new experience for the players as well. Allowing us to make
original items, with our own strings, choose our stats, which
would require components, and in the expert level, add innate
abilities to these items.

I'll ramble more some other time, its later here and im trying to
get yotus killed. Please give me bad or good feedback on this idea
since i think 2.0 should be a community discussion.
As long as we live in this world we are bound to encounter problems. If, at such times, we lose hope and become discouraged, we diminish our ability to face difficulties. If, on the other hand, we remember that it is not just ourselves but everyone who has to undergo suffering, this more realistic perspective will increase our determination and capacity to overcome troubles.
-- The Dali Lama
Gizep
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Postby Gizep » Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:37 am

Prestige Classes and Patrons:
I'm not suggesting that people be required to follow a diety. I'm
suggesting that people who spend the required time and effort
role playing fielty to a deity should be rewarded.

Some prime examples:
Arcane Devotee - Yes I know this is the first one listed in
forgotten realms 3.5 manual.

Requirements: Strong participation in the church of their choosing
Normally a wizard, sorcerer, rarely a bard.

Evil versions are called Arcane Assassins and have a different path
to follow but have basically the same rewards.
No armor proficiencies granted:
Gains extra spell slots:
Bonus arcane feat
a few innate spells like Enlarge, Sacred Defense, Divine Shroud.

Hathran:
Basically a coven of witches that have their own rules and ethics
Generally these are clerics and wizards, they are not allowed
to create magic items, this is left to the male counterparts (Sexists)

They gain
Alchemy, Animal Empathy, Concentration, Craft, Intuit Direction
Knowledge, Perform, Profession, Scry, Swim, Speak Language and
Wilderness Lore.

They gain an exotic weapon proficiency - Whip
Extra Spell Slots
and several minor feats too many to continue to list....

The reward for role playing characters would be minimal, but
it does give those characters bragging rights as well as
a cool new title. Although they are still considered a cleric
invoker etc, they gain a reward for putting in the extra effort.

Re-Work trade system.

In the afore mentioned jobs given throughout the towns, staight
money jobs should be fundamental. One of the aspects of dnd that
is lacking in sojourn/toril is the fact that we don't have real
skills or jobs. And the only thing our hometowns mean is we can
tell on others when justice is enabled.

As I deliver goods to baulders gate from waterdeep, i gain favor
with the keepers i deliver to, and they eventually approach me
for new routes, new money, more adventure.

Once again, i think that a skill setting on these trade deliveries
should be key, because if a newbie wants to run easy missions back
and forth between baulders gate and waterdeep to gain coin, let them.
On the other side of the coin, if a character wishes to take a huge
risk for a great reward, well they should be able to as well.

But if they fail, the vendor should lower their confidence in the
player and not trust them as much..

Back to killing Yotus....
As long as we live in this world we are bound to encounter problems. If, at such times, we lose hope and become discouraged, we diminish our ability to face difficulties. If, on the other hand, we remember that it is not just ourselves but everyone who has to undergo suffering, this more realistic perspective will increase our determination and capacity to overcome troubles.
-- The Dali Lama
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Re: 3.5 Items, Skills, And Abilities, Minimal Gameplay Chang

Postby Shevarash » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:48 pm

Gizep wrote:With that said, I would like to toss in my 2 cents on this upgrade
you have been discussing for months. I have not read anything
in these forums, because quite frankly i am scared of what i might
find.

I feel that a massive change to the system in place could greatly
frustrate and further alienate the current playerbase.


I've gone to quite a lot of effort to make available the information that you need to feel knowledgeable and comfortable with the upcoming changes. Rather than being scared about reading it, why don't you get informed on the changes? Start with the Announcements forum and then read this one.

This is not to say that I won't read and consider your ideas - but there would be a lot more weight behind them if they were informed with knowledge of the proposed changes. In any case, I do thank you for your constructive feedback.
Shevarash -- Code Forger of TorilMUD
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Postby Gizep » Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:05 pm

What i'm scared of shev, is that 2.0 will be just thrust upon us and return us to the status of 1995/1996 but without 300 players. I'm a career dungeons and dragons / forgotten realms / dragonlance freak. I've logged more board time than i have mud time, sometimes simultaniously.

I was not trying to tell you what to do, i was giving you my objective ideas based on my experience within sojourn, toril and ddo. Not to mention baulders gate one and two and countless other games ive bought throught the years. My first statement says it all, the very first paragraph. Think that one over before you start telling me what to read, i've read plenty, just not what anyone here has to say.

Please do not take this or any above post the wrong way, i am only trying to help in the only way i can, since you will not review my resume or return my emails.
As long as we live in this world we are bound to encounter problems. If, at such times, we lose hope and become discouraged, we diminish our ability to face difficulties. If, on the other hand, we remember that it is not just ourselves but everyone who has to undergo suffering, this more realistic perspective will increase our determination and capacity to overcome troubles.
-- The Dali Lama
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Postby Ragorn » Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:22 pm

A vast quantity of material has already been released by Shev concerning what's going to happen with 2.0. I don't know what you hope to accomplish by coming onto the board a year into the process, saying you haven't read any of the printed material, and then giving advice on prestige classes and quests based on things you liked from Baldur's Gate.
- Ragorn
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Postby Shevarash » Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:35 pm

What's with the combativeness? You said you're concerned about 2.0 and haven't read anything about it in the forums. I told you should read it first if you want your comments on it to be taken seriously. Nobody's questioning your knowledge of 3.5 or D&D, but Toril 2.0 is not D&D 3.5.

If you're not willing to read what we write, why should I read your comments on it? I really don't understand where you're coming from here.

Now, please don't take what I say the wrong way. I am very open to discussing 2.0 or the MUD in general, as I've demonstrated in these forums. All I ask is that you take advantage of the information I've provided instead of making assumptions, so that we can properly discuss the issues at hand. Please understand that I am trying to be helpful here, not dismissive.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:07 pm

If you really want to get a point across in a long post, you should take the time to spell check your post.

Your paragraph post about items... extremely brief. We have something like that. It's called upgrade quests.

You seem to want this game to be more like Diablo or the games you said you played. In the end, those games were incredibly easy with generated maps because there is no skill required. Point and nuke. Same as any other PvE game. Want difference in skill? Go to different zones. This is a MUD with a theme, not Diablo. How do you RP explain Tarsellian Forest being harder when I bring 3 invokers instead of 0?

The skills you describe are quite interesting and are at least a decent idea compared to your others. I'd highly suggest you read Toril 2.0 announcements and see what Shevarash is doing.

I'd also suggest you think about who we have making Toril 2.0. The coders actually have lives and don't get paid to do this. If you're asking for a huge overhaul... I'd suggest you find a different game. What they're doing is what they're doing and suggested huge projects will probably never happen.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:06 pm

The current pbase and the not so current pbase are looking forward to these changes .. Hell I have never been a table topper, I tried it once and didnt like it .. but even with my limited knowledge of D&D at all, what has been written about 2.0 more than satisfies the fear I had originally about something totally foreign.. It will be very user friendly from what I have read .. it has been explained in great detail, and as new changes come about, new information has been put out

This is an all or nothing implementation, it has totally rewritten Toril's code as we know it, and as I understand it, it would be impossible to implement small changes here and there .. it has to be done all at once ..
Last edited by Ambar on Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Gizep » Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:41 pm

Now i remember why i just keep my mouth shut about stuff like this, great. Also why i rarely come to forums.
As long as we live in this world we are bound to encounter problems. If, at such times, we lose hope and become discouraged, we diminish our ability to face difficulties. If, on the other hand, we remember that it is not just ourselves but everyone who has to undergo suffering, this more realistic perspective will increase our determination and capacity to overcome troubles.
-- The Dali Lama
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Postby moritheil » Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:07 am

Gizep wrote:Now i remember why i just keep my mouth shut about stuff like this, great. Also why i rarely come to forums.


Gizep, I empathize with you here. However you are essentially coming to an ongoing conversation and asking everyone else to ignore what's been said and talk about it from your angle. Many of your suggestions - prestige classes, fixing the economy, more dynamic content, reworking trade - have already been discussed in this forum, and some have their own threads.

Why not contribute to those threads?
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Postby Gizep » Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:22 pm

Should i take others opinions into account when forming my own? I think not. Are you people so conformed to the will of the gods to accept their plans without question or opnion on the matter what so ever?

I don't care what other people think. If you want to discuss dungeons and dragons with me, do it in the game. If you want to discuss computer programming with me, i've got a website for that.

This forum is for the discussion of 2.0. Everything I stated above, i am capable of implementing on my own, in my own mud. I don't wanna do that because i love this mud. I respect the gods and have always shown them the respect they deserve.

Show me the respect I deserve and do not thrash my opinions lest you feel my wrath (RP).
As long as we live in this world we are bound to encounter problems. If, at such times, we lose hope and become discouraged, we diminish our ability to face difficulties. If, on the other hand, we remember that it is not just ourselves but everyone who has to undergo suffering, this more realistic perspective will increase our determination and capacity to overcome troubles.
-- The Dali Lama
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Postby Shevarash » Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:24 pm

Again, I am only suggesting that you read the documentation for the proposed changes. I do not understand how this can be taken the wrong way. I have not told you to take anyone else's opinion into account, only to read up on the plans as stated by the developers. This entire forum is for people to discuss these plans.
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Postby Yayaril » Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:27 pm

8)

Shev, I can't believe you're taking the time to discuss these dynamics of Sojourn 2.0 when you haven't addressed MY issue of the blue clown noses!

I know blue clown noses aren't in the 3.5 core rules, but there have been several articles about them in Dragon Magazine and the book 'Harlequins of Faerun' covers the issue quite well. By reading these sources, you'll understand that blue clown noses hold a place in Faerun.

On the topic of green clown noses; we should not implement them, as they are overpowered. I demand feedback on this topic!
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Postby Cirath » Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:11 pm

Gizep wrote:Should i take others opinions into account when forming my own? I think not. Are you people so conformed to the will of the gods to accept their plans without question or opnion on the matter what so ever?


You know, the funny thing is that because you haven't read the years worth of discussion over the topic, you have completely missed every one of the hundreds of questions and opinions on the matter of the 2.0 change. But you seem to want to get yourself as worked up as possible, so feel free to do so.

Gizep wrote:I don't care what other people think. If you want to discuss dungeons and dragons with me, do it in the game. If you want to discuss computer programming with me, i've got a website for that.


If you don't care about the input of others, then why not just take your suggestions to private messages or emails? It might be better suited to your methods.

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