An Inconvenient Truth

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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:40 am

Corth wrote:Teflor,

And the Supreme Court is the end all and be all of what is correct? Tell that to Dred Scott. Heh. What are your thoughts on Roe v. Wade again?

Its just common sense. The government takes 25% of my income, and 10% of yours. Are we being treated equally? Hah! 25% from both of us.. We're getting there. $5,000 from both of us.. now we are being treated equally.


First of all, this is a fundamental misunderstanding of the way the current income taxes work. We both paid 0% on our first 7k of income, we both paid 15% on our next 24k of income. You happen to make, let's say 30k more, so you paid 28% on that income. Had I had your income, I would also have paid 28% of that 30k.

So yes, we're being treated equally.
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:43 am

Corth wrote:If 5k doesn't work, then make it 2k, or whatever it is that will not starve people. If they can't even pay that nominal amount, then they should be required to work for the shortfall. Pick up crap on the side of the highway or something. Say, at $10 per hour.


$2k per year is not enough money to fund the government? Oh well! :)


And I'm the one promoting government-centric solutions?
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:44 am

Ragorn wrote:How about we just take enough money from every person in the country until each person has exactly $40,000 of income remaining?

Wouldn't that be the MOST equal way of doing it?
...
Translation: Making everything equal is not always fair.


No, this scenario doesn't fit either because that's communism, and communism is neither equal nor fair.
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby Ragorn » Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:50 am

Communism is very equal. That's sort of the definition of the system.
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby Corth » Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:55 am

Ragorn wrote:
Corth wrote:Teflor,

And the Supreme Court is the end all and be all of what is correct? Tell that to Dred Scott. Heh. What are your thoughts on Roe v. Wade again?

Its just common sense. The government takes 25% of my income, and 10% of yours. Are we being treated equally? Hah! 25% from both of us.. We're getting there. $5,000 from both of us.. now we are being treated equally.

How about we just take enough money from every person in the country until each person has exactly $40,000 of income remaining?

Wouldn't that be the MOST equal way of doing it?

You don't need to worry about silly tax rates or loopholes. And everyone is completely equal because they have the same amount of money at the end!

Translation: Making everything equal is not always fair.


I gotta tell you.. that would be pretty awesome. I would definitely get some low pressure job.. shelving books at a library or something. I'm thinking my doctor friends would feel the same way. Heheh. :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby Sarvis » Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:03 am

Corth wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
Corth wrote:Teflor,

And the Supreme Court is the end all and be all of what is correct? Tell that to Dred Scott. Heh. What are your thoughts on Roe v. Wade again?

Its just common sense. The government takes 25% of my income, and 10% of yours. Are we being treated equally? Hah! 25% from both of us.. We're getting there. $5,000 from both of us.. now we are being treated equally.

How about we just take enough money from every person in the country until each person has exactly $40,000 of income remaining?

Wouldn't that be the MOST equal way of doing it?

You don't need to worry about silly tax rates or loopholes. And everyone is completely equal because they have the same amount of money at the end!

Translation: Making everything equal is not always fair.


I gotta tell you.. that would be pretty awesome. I would definitely get some low pressure job.. shelving books at a library or something. I'm thinking my doctor friends would feel the same way. Heheh. :)



Sheesh... I go play Smash Bros. for 20 minutes and you guys go fill up another page!

Oh, and some of us could probably find less stressful jobs for more pay, but don't. I know I could, I just don't want to go back to being the low man on the totem pole from my current status.

So I think we'd be ok. :P
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:04 am

Ragorn wrote:Communism is very equal. That's sort of the definition of the system.


It doesn't really happen that way though, does it.
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby Ragorn » Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:04 am

Corth wrote:I gotta tell you.. that would be pretty awesome. I would definitely get some low pressure job.. shelving books at a library or something. I'm thinking my doctor friends would feel the same way. Heheh. :)

Nobody's stopping you from getting some $40k/year job now :)
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby Corth » Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:58 pm

No, not at all.. but then I would be living in the ghetto and my wife wouldn't get the shiny things she wants. 40K where I live doesn't get you very far. But.. if everyone made 40k... I think we'd be doing alright (until we got sick and couldn't find a doctor). Stores would just have to lower the price of shiny things, right? :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:14 pm

Corth wrote:No, not at all.. but then I would be living in the ghetto and my wife wouldn't get the shiny things she wants. 40K where I live doesn't get you very far. But.. if everyone made 40k... I think we'd be doing alright (until we got sick and couldn't find a doctor). Stores would just have to lower the price of shiny things, right? :)


More like, there would be none left because no one would work, nevermind the global economy.
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby Corth » Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:06 pm

*I* would work Teflor. Shelving library books is very relaxing, and apparently profitable!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby Sarvis » Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:42 pm

Corth, are you seriously trying to imply that no one would ever pick a career on a basis other than profit potential? I'm fairly sure certain "professions" predate money, art and music come to mind actually.

I also suspect you practice law for reasons other than simple cash flow, as there are more profitable careers available. Frankly, I wouldn't want to be a librarian at any price. Way too boring!
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby Kifle » Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:07 pm

Sarvis wrote:Corth, are you seriously trying to imply that no one would ever pick a career on a basis other than profit potential? I'm fairly sure certain "professions" predate money, art and music come to mind actually.

I also suspect you practice law for reasons other than simple cash flow, as there are more profitable careers available. Frankly, I wouldn't want to be a librarian at any price. Way too boring!


I think that both points are equally valid. There are people who want to become doctors because they love to help people, or they like figuring out puzzles, etc. There are people who become lawyers because they love to argue, who love being in a possition to guarantee rights for others, etc. On the other hand, there are always those that do it for the money as well.

I think a strict socialist environment (equal pay across the board) would produce better quality workers in a given field but lower quantity. Those who do it for the money often times become the worst in their field while those who do it for the field per se are more likely going to be the ones who excel.

Anyway, like I said, both views are valid; however taking only one into consideration is nothing more than a poorly constructed and weak reductio ad absurdum argument which has no real weight in reality.
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby Ragorn » Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:56 pm

Corth wrote:*I* would work Teflor. Shelving library books is very relaxing, and apparently profitable!

Oh, I didn't say every job pays $40k. I said you're taxed until your net income is no higher than $40k. So if you want to shelve library books for $8/hr, you're welcome to do that tax free under my system.

It's a great system.
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby Corth » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:38 am

Oof, ok that screws up all my plans. I suppose I will have to continue practicing law.. but I'll only work 4 months of the year. Give or take a month or so depending on when I reach 40k :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:55 am

Kifle wrote:I think a strict socialist environment (equal pay across the board) would produce better quality workers in a given field but lower quantity.


This represents a viewpoint very far from reality, one in which professions do not rely upon other professions, and development does not rely upon market factors.

Where a doctor has no relation to a lab technician, and a home developer does not need a sanitation engineer.

In short, this view is nonsense spouted by someone completely disconnected from reality and common sense.
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby Lathander » Fri May 02, 2008 2:25 am

Kifle, you're pretty funny.

"I think a strict socialist environment (equal pay across the board) would produce better quality workers in a given field but lower quantity." -Kifle

That is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Yes, one might choose to be a doctor and work as a volunteer in Africa or something. The difference is you can't call that successful. The volunteer doc in Africa doesn't make any money. He also doesn't have to deal with administrative issues or other management type things, but he isn't successful. You have an extremely warped sense of "better quality workers".

Hell, in my field, when I interview someone, I always ask why they want to join it. If they don't say "To make money" then I know they are a piker that aren't worth hiring.
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby Kifle » Fri May 02, 2008 2:47 am

Lathander wrote:Kifle, you're pretty funny.

"I think a strict socialist environment (equal pay across the board) would produce better quality workers in a given field but lower quantity." -Kifle

That is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Yes, one might choose to be a doctor and work as a volunteer in Africa or something. The difference is you can't call that successful. The volunteer doc in Africa doesn't make any money. He also doesn't have to deal with administrative issues or other management type things, but he isn't successful. You have an extremely warped sense of "better quality workers".

Hell, in my field, when I interview someone, I always ask why they want to join it. If they don't say "To make money" then I know they are a piker that aren't worth hiring.


Reported. Also, while I acknowledge your disagreement, we obviously have two different views of what creates quality -- love of subject or monitary gain -- neither more provable than the other. Thank you for your response and I look forward to hearing from you again.
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby Corth » Fri May 02, 2008 2:49 am

While I agree with Lathander's assessment of Kifle's socialism comment, I do believe that Kifle is correct insofar as a personal attack against his intelligence can be inferred from the 'dumbest thing I ever read' comment. Mods, please address this issue!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby Kifle » Fri May 02, 2008 2:54 am

While I am not suprised Corth disagrees with my socialist comment, I will gladly invite him to support his claim through empirical evidence that is falsifiable. Thank you for your time, sir. I await your response with the giddiness of a puppy (who may or may not fart rainbows and butterflies).
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby Lathander » Fri May 02, 2008 3:04 am

God help us all if in a political thread we can't say a comment, not the author of that comment, is dumb. This is especially true of a comment about everyone getting exactly equal pay for a job creating better workers. It's laughable.
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby Kifle » Fri May 02, 2008 3:26 am

Lathander wrote:God help us all if in a political thread we can't say a comment, not the author of that comment, is dumb. This is especially true of a comment about everyone getting exactly equal pay for a job creating better workers. It's laughable.


I am sorry if you feel that the rules of the forums are too constraining, but in the future, please show restraint when using vulgar adjectives when refering to anyone or anyone's creation. As for your last statement, I would like to reply that your worldview, judgements, and qualities you attach to your fellow human beings, as much as you may disagree, are a personal matter. And in your attempt to generalize a conclusion based on nothing but those predicates I previously laid out, you have forgotten that the hypothetical situation in question is not real, nor has it ever been real; therefore, the closest that you can get to a claim of truth is personal opinion. In realizing this, you would be hard pressed to justify the claim that any reasonable comment made on the subject is anything but equal to your own statements.

In closing, I would like to again remind you to read and follow the rules of the forums. They are not posted in very contrasted, bright red text so you can ignore them. Nor were they posted to be subjectively enforced or followed. Thank you again for your reply. I look forward to hearing from you again much like a desert plant looks foward to the rain at the end of the dry season.
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby Lathander » Fri May 02, 2008 3:29 am

Er ah, you're still wrong. Thanks.
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby Vikaz » Fri May 02, 2008 3:31 am

Lathander wrote:God help us all if in a political thread we can't say a comment, not the author of that comment, is dumb. This is especially true of a comment about everyone getting exactly equal pay for a job creating better workers. It's laughable.

Forum rules wrote:- No personal attacks against players or staff members - please be civil!
- No posting of mature images/links, keep content SFW. If it's NSFW, don't post it on these forums.


We're trying to cultivate a carebear community, please follow the rules set forth by the admins of this forum. You could link to another board if you want to have this discussion somewhere else.
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby Kifle » Fri May 02, 2008 3:35 am

Lathander wrote:Er ah, you're still wrong. Thanks.


I appreciated your well thought-out response, but I will have to re-read it a few times before I am able to sufficiently respond in the same scholorly manner that you have -- I don't want to seem dumb. Again, thank you for your reply. I await your next reply like a newborn awaits its next breast-suckling session.

Yours Truely,

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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby Lathander » Fri May 02, 2008 3:44 am

Feh, ok, no one wants to have a real discussion because they are beating a dead horse. Let me know when the usual political banter is back on.

BTW, it says personal attacks on players. Critiquing a comment is not a personal attack unless someone can explain how it is. To bring it back to the political topic, maybe to someone like Rev. Wright it would be an attack.

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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby teflor the ranger » Fri May 02, 2008 6:54 am

Kifle wrote:I will gladly invite him to support his claim through empirical evidence that is falsifiable.


I believe it takes a certain kind of intellectual cowardice to ask for evidence in an argument in which there has been no experimentation. Clearly, the only answers to this particular question have always lay in discussion and consideration, rather than experimentation and data.

Making this argument has all the intellectual courage of asking an economist to prove anything about an economy. It is a foolish thing to say at best.
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby shalath » Fri May 02, 2008 6:56 am

Lathander wrote:That is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Yes, one might choose to be a doctor and work as a volunteer in Africa or something. The difference is you can't call that successful. The volunteer doc in Africa doesn't make any money. He also doesn't have to deal with administrative issues or other management type things, but he isn't successful. You have an extremely warped sense of "better quality workers".

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Just because you cannot fathom of people for whom not making money is deemed "successful", does not mean that they do not exist. You have a warped sense of "success". There are many very successful people who live out their entire lives as volunteers, helping others. Earning large amounts of money is not the only definition of success.
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby Sarvis » Fri May 02, 2008 12:37 pm

Lathander wrote:"I think a strict socialist environment (equal pay across the board) would produce better quality workers in a given field but lower quantity." -Kifle

That is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Yes, one might choose to be a doctor and work as a volunteer in Africa or something. The difference is you can't call that successful.






Hey, take a quick look at the words I put in bold. You realize they're different, right? He didn't say successful, he said higher quality.
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby Shar » Fri May 02, 2008 2:30 pm

All the sarcastic punches at one another need to stop.

The phony reports against staff need to stop. Lathander said nothing to attack anyone and his comments are not out of line, especially within a political discussion. Had he phrased it to infer that Kifle were dumb, we'd have an issue.

It has already gotten to the point that the staff have had to warn and ban posters for similar circumstances to this. Having to repeatedly read snarky comments or witness the stereotypical rage against authority in an attempt to bend rules will not accomplish anything other than more restrictions. Let's face it, folks. This isn't a place where you can come to insult the character or the intelligence of those around you, either blatantly or on the sly. None of the staff are stupid, and I for one will no longer put up with backhanded remarks about the rules or my character.

This is the only public warning this thread and the posters in question will have. Feel free to have full conversations about politics and the upcoming election and all of the issues that lie therein but please refrain from sarcasm toward the staff and the policy we enforce, blatant attack or otherwise.
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby Kifle » Fri May 02, 2008 5:29 pm

Shar, not to nitpick or pressume too much, but I feel inclined to point out one thing. You fully defend the statement by Lathander, but I, Teflor, Sarvis, Corth, Dartan, Gormal, etc. have all been accused of flaming or incorrect behavior for saying something somebody else wrote was retarded, stupid, dumb, idiotic, etc. The fact that you are standing behind Lathander's comments and even going so far to say that "[he] said nothing to attack anyone," and then in the same post go on to say that "[...] this isn't a place where you can come to insult the character or the intelligence of those around you [...]," is without a doubt contradictory. The only, and I mean only, way that you could possibly argue otherwise is to whip up some imaginary semantic argument that would carry absolutely no weight in an arena where validity, truth, or logic are scrutinized to even the slightest degree.

But, if what you are saying is how you really feel, then that is absolutely the dumbest thing I have every read in my entire life -- and I have read many many ooc comments from muma and occasionally read faux news for shits and giggles.
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby Shar » Fri May 02, 2008 5:36 pm

Kifle wrote:Shar, not to nitpick or pressume too much, but I feel inclined to point out one thing. You fully defend the statement by Lathander, but I, Teflor, Sarvis, Corth, Dartan, Gormal, etc. have all been accused of flaming or incorrect behavior for saying something somebody else wrote was retarded, stupid, dumb, idiotic, etc. The fact that you are standing behind Lathander's comments and even going so far to say that "[he] said nothing to attack anyone," and then in the same post go on to say that "[...] this isn't a place where you can come to insult the character or the intelligence of those around you [...]," is without a doubt contradictory. The only, and I mean only, way that you could possibly argue otherwise is to whip up some imaginary semantic argument that would carry absolutely no weight in an arena where validity, truth, or logic are scrutinized to even the slightest degree.

But, if what you are saying is how you really feel, then that is absolutely the dumbest thing I have every read in my entire life -- and I have read many many ooc comments from muma and occasionally read faux news for shits and giggles.



Ok
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby Dalar » Fri May 02, 2008 5:43 pm

Staff can't get warnings silly.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth

Postby teflor the ranger » Sat May 03, 2008 4:33 pm

Kifle wrote:Reported. Also, while I acknowledge your disagreement, we obviously have two different views of what creates quality -- love of subject or monitary gain -- neither more provable than the other. Thank you for your response and I look forward to hearing from you again.


Again, Kifle, you show us a viewpoint completely disconnected from reality and common sense. You make the false assumption that monetary gain somehow destroys or nullifies a love of subject, when in truth, monetary gain can actually bolster a love of subject.

Just because you get paid for the job, doesn't mean that you love it less.
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