gas stimulus package?

Life, the universe, and everything.
Forum rules
- No personal attacks against players or staff members - please be civil!
- No posting of mature images/links, keep content SFW. If it's NSFW, don't post it on these forums.
Latreg
Sojourner
Posts: 481
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:47 pm
Location: Roanoke,Va

gas stimulus package?

Postby Latreg » Fri May 16, 2008 5:00 pm

the George Bush checks are appearing!!!!......good time to raise gas prices
Talona responds to your petition with 'Sweet, I fixed something!'
Talona LFG: [55 Evil Human Nec] 'Don't make me mud castrate you all.'
Some people are like slinkies, not really good for anything but you still cant help smile when you see one tumble down the stairs.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Corth » Fri May 16, 2008 5:03 pm

This is what happens over time when schools are socialized.

Ok, pray tell, who exactly decides to raise the gas prices. "Big oil" right?
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Ragorn » Fri May 16, 2008 6:01 pm

George W. Bush personally uses a signing statement to raise gas prices, based on information gathered by wiretapping illegal immigrants.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Sarvis » Fri May 16, 2008 6:02 pm

You know, it's funny. Libertarians expect competition to keep prices low even if a business can make more profit by increasing prices.

Example: On the midway every food stand sets it's own prices. What do you think happens if we look over and see our neighbor has raised their price for a comparable product?


...


...


...

We raise ours too.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Botef
Sojourner
Posts: 1056
Joined: Fri May 10, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Eastern Washington
Contact:

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Botef » Fri May 16, 2008 6:35 pm

I'm a bit miffed because I wont get mine till July. I ended up owing money this year and didnt see anything regarding setting up direct deposit for the rebate on my tax forms, probably because I filed so early. At any rate, without my bank info it will have to be mailed.

Gas has gone up .30 in the last 4 days here. What I find so irritating is the record profits these companies make every quarter. Thats commodities for ya though.
Sunamit group-says 'imrex west, tibek backstab touk i think his name is on entry'
// Post Count +1
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Corth » Fri May 16, 2008 6:48 pm

Guys...

Oil, along with other commodities, is part of an international commodity market. Oil companies and sovereign oil producers will sell to whoever bids the highest in that market. Simple as that. Nobody decides to increase prices. Nobody decides to lower prices. There is no competition between the oil companies because all oil is the same. Its fungible. The competition is between the buyers. If people are willing to pay $130 for a barrel of oil, then it will go that high. If nobody is willing to pay $120, then it will fall below.

The only possible way that oil companies and sovereign oil producers could drive prices up is to limit supply. However, any conspiracy theory about 'big oil' companies purposefully limiting supply falls flat because there are literally hundreds of huge producers. No single company could have an impact. If the companies colluded, they would ultimately get so fucked it wouldn't be funny. It would violate some serious laws. Someone would find out and the resulting outrage and penalties would be devestating. Moreover, the largest private corporations, such as exxon/mobil, cannot hold a candle to the huge sovereign producers in arab countries, venezuela, and russia. Unlike oil companies, sovereign producers can do whatever the fuck they want. So much better when government runs things, right? Possibly, through cartels like OPEC, the sovereign producers can drive prices up by limiting supply. HOWEVER, that has historically not worked for any length of time, as individual member nations in OPEC cheat on their quota to take advantage of higher prices, ultimately driving the prices down.

There is no man behind the curtain, George Bush or anyone else, who decides.. hrmm.. today we are going to raise gas prices to.. hrmm.. $3.78. *roll*

As far as the profits the oil companies are making.. I just dont understand why anyone gives a fuck. These are not charitable organizations. They are businesses which exist to make money. The reason they are making a ton of money is people are willing to buy their product for a ton of money. They don't care who they sell it to.. they sell to whoever pays the most. How come its ok for Warren Buffet to make a ton of money, or Bill Gates, but not for the oil companies? Should we have forced Microsoft to lower the price of its product? Or pay an 'excess profits' tax? Or maybe we should take it a step further and tell small businesses.. contractors, lawyers, whatever, that they can't charge more than $X per hour. Utterly ridiculous.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Sarvis » Fri May 16, 2008 7:05 pm

Look at my previous post again Corth, a man behind the curtain isn't needed. Look at a place like Delta Sonic, sure they compete with lower prices but "lower prices" is explicitly defined as 1 cent below the next highest gas station within a certain radius. Certainly they could go lower to steal more business, but they don't. They get the highest possible price they can while "competing" and other gas stations have no incentive to lower their prices because DS will just go 1 cent lower. Theoretically they could attempt to price themselves to exactly 1 cent above profitibility to drive DS out of business... but then they just badly cut into their own profits.

Collusion doesn't need to be explicit or agreed to, especially when you're dealing with a product which is all but required for most of us. Prices aren't increasing drastically because of supply or demand increases, but because gas stations can increase the price and increase profit.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Corth » Fri May 16, 2008 7:25 pm

Umm sarvis, if your looking at the individual gas stations you are definitely barking up the wrong tree. Most of them make very very little money selling gasoline. Many actually lose money on the gasoline. Really. They make their money selling cigarettes, sodas, and other overpriced crap.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Sarvis » Fri May 16, 2008 7:34 pm

Yes, but the pricing policies are set at the corporate level right? We both know that's what I'm talking about.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Corth » Fri May 16, 2008 8:04 pm

Actually, no. Gas stations are typically independently owned and operated. Price decisions are made at the local level, which is necessary because local competition is fierce.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Todrael
Sojourner
Posts: 1454
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:01 am
Location: MI, USA
Contact:

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Todrael » Fri May 16, 2008 8:05 pm

The oil companies don't need to collude to limit supply. Supply is naturally limited. See peak oil.
-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
Get Toril Guides and Maps at Todrael's Lair
Get Item Stats at TorilEQ
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Corth » Fri May 16, 2008 8:11 pm

AGREE Todrael.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Kifle » Fri May 16, 2008 8:24 pm

I'm pretty sure this is the first time my mind has been changed on this board. I'm actually starting to agree with Corth on this. As much as I'd like to think that the oil companies are taking advantage of shit, the reality is that they probably aren't. I still don't agree with some of the methods of raising gas prices (refineries), but again, I do think Corth is right on this one. I must go hang myself now...
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Sarvis » Fri May 16, 2008 8:31 pm

Corth wrote:Actually, no. Gas stations are typically independently owned and operated. Price decisions are made at the local level, which is necessary because local competition is fierce.


So the gas companies don't decide how much the stations buy gas at?
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Corth » Fri May 16, 2008 9:50 pm

No, not at all. The gas stations buy their product from local distributors who sell to all the major brand gas stations. Mobil, for instance, has no say in what a local Mobil franchise owner pays for his gasoline.

Heres the supply chain.

Oil producer ---> refinery ----> distributor ----> local gas station.

The local Mobil station in Talahassee, Florida can easily end up with gasoline distributed by Sarvis Corp., which purchased the gasoline from a Valero Refinery in Louisiana, which purchased oil produced in Venezuala by Citgo.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Corth » Fri May 16, 2008 10:16 pm

Actually, I am going to add a disclaimer. Thats basically my understanding of how it works. I'm not involved in the industry. If someone has more knowledge of it then I would appreciate their opinion.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Teyaha
Sojourner
Posts: 1085
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 5:01 am

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Teyaha » Fri May 16, 2008 11:38 pm

you have it right corth. i know a couple station owners

they make money on snacks, soda and car washes. most have been losing a couple cents per gallon since 2004.

they can only price as high as their local market will bear. if it's costing them (after taxes) 4.00 a gallon, they cant sell at 4.10 or 4.25 a gallon if a) nobody is willing to pay for it along with b) there are other owners near them who are likewise selling at a loss

hell, even costco is getting near $4.00 a gallon here, and they used to beat out all competition by a wide margin as recently as 4 years ago.

ah well. i'm looking at a maxi scooter now. for getting around town my back should be able to handle short stints on something like that which gives 70 mpg. my 6 cylinder automatic 2001 minivan (bought when i used to transport models and camera shit all over the bay area for shoots) is too expensive even for short hops to the supermarket. i had to take my grandfatehr to the hospital on monday. for those that live in the sf bay area we're talking northern san jose to southern santa clara. maybe 12 miles. had to do the round trip twice. was half a tank of gas in that POS. a full tank costs me $70 at 3.91 a gallon. us poor, fat white disabled people just cant afford these things anymore :(
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Ashiwi » Sun May 18, 2008 8:02 pm

Gas stations buy independently. It's one reason we pay less in Oklahoma... because once they can tap into the local reserves, they're saving cost on fuel transport, which is added into the price.

It costs a hell of a lot more for them to ship fuel long distance than to purchase from local distributors.
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
Yasden
Sojourner
Posts: 1597
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Lake Stevens, WA, USA

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Yasden » Sun May 18, 2008 8:48 pm

There was recent proof that there's no reason for the price being so high. The price controllers are the ones dictating the price of a barrel of oil. Yes, I'm inferring that the oil companies are gouging us. I'll tell you why. Alternative fuel options are becoming more and more available, and with hybrid engines making a surge in sales, they know they need to cash in now instead of later. Dick Cheney's going to get a huge kickback when he leaves the White House next year. Ever wonder why he never threw his hat in the ring to run for president?

Maybe it's time to set another price ceiling like it was done in 1973 and 1979. Yeah, long lines suck, but not being able to buy food sucks worse.
Support Your Addiction! Vote for TorilMUD Today!

Top Mud Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin/topmuds/rankem.cgi?id=shev

Why Nerox is jealous of me:

Nerox tells you 'man this thing is kicking my ass and i have blisters!'
Nerox tells you 'ok attempting it again put tape on my fingers for easier sliding'
teflor the ranger
Sojourner
Posts: 3923
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Waterdeep

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby teflor the ranger » Sun May 18, 2008 9:38 pm

Sarvis wrote:Libertarians expect competition to keep prices low even if a business can make more profit by increasing prices.


You never really studied the effects of competition, have you?
Teflor does. Teflor does not.
Latreg
Sojourner
Posts: 481
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:47 pm
Location: Roanoke,Va

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Latreg » Mon May 19, 2008 3:27 pm

I wasn't implying that Bush had anything to do with increase in price, just seems bad timing for us that we are given a little back and it's going to be turned around and put into our gas tanks.

Aren't the drug companies price regulated? I had a product that most people needed and they announced all these rebate checks where to be given out, I'd raise my price too and snatch some of that cash.

companies are designed to make money etc, that is a given, but if I wanted to purchase a suit lets say, I can pay $1500 or $100 depending on the quality etc. Yet gas stations only vary a penny or 2 in many cases.

the price for oil is per barrel, it costs every company the same to produce a barrel? how come Exon and some of these huge companies don't have different prices for a barrel of oil? strange. Saw that Exon posted a 9 billion dollar profit, so if they cut their prices in half should equal 4.5 billion profit for just that one company? how much is enough or too much?
Talona responds to your petition with 'Sweet, I fixed something!'

Talona LFG: [55 Evil Human Nec] 'Don't make me mud castrate you all.'

Some people are like slinkies, not really good for anything but you still cant help smile when you see one tumble down the stairs.
Lathander
Staff Member - Areas
Posts: 781
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:18 pm

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Lathander » Mon May 19, 2008 6:51 pm

Huh, has anyone heard of OPEC? I have yet to hear much attacks on them as we have the oil companies. Largely, the oil companies have a profit margin which is based on a percentage of the price they sell it at.

The forumula is:

All Costs + Profit Margin = Price

Profit Margin is the ratio of profit divided by your total revenue.

If the cost of your inputs goes up then your profit margin you charge has to go up for the capital. Therefore, you have higher gas prices. I could go into more depth on price pressures on oil company capital, but I'll ask Corth to post about that but they are significant.

Latreg, as a follow up, drug companies are not price regulated here in the States. Your comparison of a $1,500 and a $100 suit is also not valid because they are not really comparable. Anyone that would and could buy the $1,500 suit would never buy the $100 suit. When you buy a $1,500 suit, it is much better made, but in addition, the buyer is also buying it for the label inside the coat.

Also, our country has been encouraging the American oil companies to merge to become more competitive with the national oil companies abroad. Most countries have a nationalized industry, and we are one of the few that don't. It only makes sense that the biggest company, XOM, is going to post big earnings when it is having a good cycle. Oil companies are capital intensive industries with smaller profit margins than financials for example.

I love that question, "How much is enough?" When you know the answer to that, it means you're finished. Any executive that feels that way needs to be replaced immediately! Seriously, how is that question even relevant?
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Corth » Mon May 19, 2008 9:09 pm

Lathander,

I would take issue with your discussion on how oil is priced. You seem to imply that the oil companies decide they are going to sell oil at $X based upon their costs and profit expectations. Thats not true at all. Oil is a commodity and its price is strictly determined by supply and demand. If there was a glut of oil, and this has happened plenty of times in the past, the price could drop to the point that the oil companies could theoretically lose money on every barrel they produce. Of course, under those circumstances, they would stop producing until some sort of equilibrium was reached. The point is that the oil companies actually have no control of how much the oil sells for. They can only control their own individual supply.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Lathander
Staff Member - Areas
Posts: 781
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:18 pm

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Lathander » Mon May 19, 2008 9:46 pm

We're getting oil and gasoline confused. You're right, like any commodity, oil and gasoline are priced on the spot market. That spot market though is subject to not only demand, but what the companies offer gasoline at. With more demand, the demand curve shifts to the upper right creating more supply at a higher price.

That said, refiners of gasoline will still create their pricing based on the need for a profit margin. Any companies value is partly determined by its ability to have predictable profit margins. Sure, the commodity market has an effect, but a refiner would simply lower production to get to the right price point (sacrifice revenue for profit). The biggest problem for the gas patch has been rising costs of the materials and energy they use to produce gasoline.

That is somewhat different than oil. Most oil comes from nationalized sources. They have to suck it out of the ground regardless of the price to create hard currency. The new book, The Crusader, about Reagan and Communism talks about how the Reagan Administration worked with the Saudi's to lower oil to take away the Soviet's source of hard currency. OPEC has the main pricing power because with Russia they control most of the oil coming onto the market, ie supply. Once again the answer is we need to produce more oil and gasoline domestically.

One big issue for OPEC is one can argue that oil is actually underpriced at the moment compared to gold. In relation to gold, they are better off not raising production until gold follows oil up. Also, I think everyone is afraid of a big decline in the oil market right after bringing on alot of additional pumping capacity.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Corth » Tue May 20, 2008 12:07 am

Not sure I see the distinction between how gasoline and oil are priced. As you mention, refiners will shut down excess capacity if they aren't making money turning oil into gasoline. That would bring down supply of gasoline, which would ultimately increase price. But likewise, if there was a glut of oil which made producing it a losing proposition, again the producers would stop producing oil until supply decreased and price increased. In both examples these aren't necessarily conscious decisions to manipulate prices, just individual rational decisions based upon market conditions, which in the aggregate tend to move prices into equilibrium.

I definitely agree that the sovereign producers are in a much better position to possibly manipulate oil prices, as they produce a lot more oil than the 'big oil' companies. However, even OPEC has found it difficult to manipulate prices for the long term, as individual member nations invariably start exceeding their quota to take advantage of artificially high prices, and end up bringing prices down.

As an aside, I don't think any of us will see another oil glut for the rest of our lives. Peak oil, imho, will be the biggest story of the next 50 years. Not just the biggest economic story. The biggest story period. There aren't enough sources of oil to make up for depletion.. even if we were able to start drilling in places currently protected by environmental laws and regulations. The human race is going to be forced into conservation kicking and screaming. Its funny how the market will ultimately accomplish quite easily what the environmentalists have been trying to accomplish for decades.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Ashiwi » Tue May 20, 2008 3:50 am

I beg to differ...

If you'd been listening to the environmentalists since, oh, the late 60's, you wouldn't be conserving right now. You'd have the problem fixed.

The reason that hasn't happened is because environmentalism isn't quite yet at the point where capitalism has found a way to maximize its potential. It's dabbling around the edges with fads, gimmicks, and short term solutions.

Unfortunately, the very foundations of environmentalism, which call for self-sustaining resources, recycling of waste product, and the creation of long-term solutions to the dilemmas we've been pasting with band-aids for the last fifty years, fly in the face of everything capitalism stands for.

Face it... capitalism isn't "a large house for everybody." It's "a bigger house for me than I had last year, and new everything to fill it with." Capitalism is a television that's cheaper to replace than to repair. Capitalism is two cellphones in a landfill in a calendar year. Capitalism is a slice of pre-formed peanut butter in its own cellophane wrapper stacked with 19 other cellphane wrappers all packaged inside another cellophane wrapper. Capitalism is about finding ways to get people to spend more, and self-renewing resources housed inside products built to not be tossed into a landfill within a year's time is NOT how capitalists dream of happy futures.

If you'd listened to the environmentalists fifty years ago, you'd be driving around in a clean emissions vehicle built to last a good twenty years at the least and fueled on the solar power gathered in the micro-cells embedded in your car's paintjob. Conservation wouldn't be much of an issue, because with the way technology has been expanding for the last fifty years, if you'd invested in conservation yesterday, it would be a commonality of life today.
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Corth » Tue May 20, 2008 4:55 am

To me, that read like blah.. blah blah.. blah blah blah blah blah.. blah.

We're not speaking the same language here Ashiwi.

Not so long ago I might have responded... "If my grandma had balls she'd be my grandpa...". Its still oddly appropriate.

Ok, umm... so heres how its going to go down in the real world. The free market, through higher energy prices, will end up accomplishing what 50 years of boorish protests, baseless platitudes, and junk science have failed miserably at. Force us to conserve energy.

If I were an environmentalist, I would be singing Kumbaya -praise capitalism! :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
teflor the ranger
Sojourner
Posts: 3923
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Waterdeep

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue May 20, 2008 6:25 am

Ashiwi wrote:If you'd listened to the environmentalists fifty years ago, you'd be driving around in a clean emissions vehicle built to last a good twenty years at the least and fueled on the solar power gathered in the micro-cells embedded in your car's paintjob. Conservation wouldn't be much of an issue, because with the way technology has been expanding for the last fifty years, if you'd invested in conservation yesterday, it would be a commonality of life today.


I beg to differ...

If you'd listened to the environmentalists fifty years ago, you'd all have taken Teflor's 3 Step Method to COMPLETELY ERADICATING Your Personal Carbon Footprint for less than $500.

1) Purchase a large caliber handgun and, let's say, 1 round, 2 if you need a practice run.

2) Load handgun.

3) Eliminate your personal carbon footprint forever.


And really, you'd all just be driving air-cooled VW bugs and ruining the environment even more. Environmentalists are often their own worst enemy in a capitalisim dominated world.
Teflor does. Teflor does not.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Sarvis » Tue May 20, 2008 12:28 pm

Corth wrote:To me, that read like blah.. blah blah.. blah blah blah blah blah.. blah.

We're not speaking the same language here Ashiwi.

Not so long ago I might have responded... "If my grandma had balls she'd be my grandpa...". Its still oddly appropriate.

Ok, umm... so heres how its going to go down in the real world. The free market, through higher energy prices, will end up accomplishing what 50 years of boorish protests, baseless platitudes, and junk science have failed miserably at. Force us to conserve energy.

If I were an environmentalist, I would be singing Kumbaya -praise capitalism! :)


Yes, yay capitalism for forcing shortsighted capitalists into something environmentalists have known for 50 years! Of course, it will only be after a huge economic upheaval where people may end up impoverished....

So that does beg the question though: if capitalism eventually proves environmentalists were correct by forcing us to use green energy sources, how were environmentalists wrong in the first place?
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Corth » Tue May 20, 2008 12:43 pm

Whoa hold up Sarvis. Your jumping the gun. Capitalism is going to make us conserve because oil will be scarcer. Less supply = higher prices = more demand by the market for energy efficiency. There is no implicit acknowledgment that environmentalists were correct in any way. Save that for the global warming thread.

Oh its that supply and demand argument again. Gosh, it just doesn't make any sense! :)

In fact, its instructive to compare the brutal effectiveness of market realty against environmentalism. For 50 or more years environmentalists have been trying to get people to buy smaller cars. They never got very far with that. But only one year of 'high' gasoline prices (they will get MUCH higher, watch), and the big manufacturers can't move those gas guzzling SUV's. Market = effective. Theories = not.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Latreg
Sojourner
Posts: 481
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:47 pm
Location: Roanoke,Va

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Latreg » Tue May 20, 2008 1:13 pm

Lathander wrote: Your comparison of a $1,500 and a $100 suit is also not valid because they are not really comparable. Anyone that would and could buy the $1,500 suit would never buy the $100 suit. When you buy a $1,500 suit, it is much better made, but in addition, the buyer is also buying it for the label inside the coat.


the point was you can shop around for better deals for most things, not gas, if the station prices vary it's only a penny or 2. Never seen one have a "sale" to get more people into their store either.

Corth, the oil companies DO affect the pricing by limitting supply etc. While it should be true if we used less the price would go down, fact is if we used less they would produce less and keep the price the same or raise it. Classic example, When I live in Northern NY, the land of snow and ice our power company would raise the price if we had a really cold and long winter saying that the increase was due to the increase demand....if we had a very mild short winter they would increase the rates because people didn't use enough, I have personally experienced this. Oil companies do the same dam thing. This will never change and the prices will continue to rise until a different fuel source is more widely used. Only competition from a different technology (i.e. hydrogen) might make them budge, doubt any of us will ever see it.
Talona responds to your petition with 'Sweet, I fixed something!'

Talona LFG: [55 Evil Human Nec] 'Don't make me mud castrate you all.'

Some people are like slinkies, not really good for anything but you still cant help smile when you see one tumble down the stairs.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Sarvis » Tue May 20, 2008 1:29 pm

Corth wrote:Whoa hold up Sarvis. Your jumping the gun. Capitalism is going to make us conserve because oil will be scarcer. Less supply = higher prices = more demand by the market for energy efficiency. There is no implicit acknowledgment that environmentalists were correct in any way. Save that for the global warming thread.

Oh its that supply and demand argument again. Gosh, it just doesn't make any sense! :)

In fact, its instructive to compare the brutal effectiveness of market realty against environmentalism. For 50 or more years environmentalists have been trying to get people to buy smaller cars. They never got very far with that. But only one year of 'high' gasoline prices (they will get MUCH higher, watch), and the big manufacturers can't move those gas guzzling SUV's. Market = effective. Theories = not.


And if everyone had listened to the environmentalists gas prices wouldn't be so high now, anyway. Theories = correct but not listened to.

Market = "effective" once it's too late
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
teflor the ranger
Sojourner
Posts: 3923
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Waterdeep

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue May 20, 2008 6:24 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Corth wrote:Whoa hold up Sarvis. Your jumping the gun. Capitalism is going to make us conserve because oil will be scarcer. Less supply = higher prices = more demand by the market for energy efficiency. There is no implicit acknowledgment that environmentalists were correct in any way. Save that for the global warming thread.

Oh its that supply and demand argument again. Gosh, it just doesn't make any sense! :)

In fact, its instructive to compare the brutal effectiveness of market realty against environmentalism. For 50 or more years environmentalists have been trying to get people to buy smaller cars. They never got very far with that. But only one year of 'high' gasoline prices (they will get MUCH higher, watch), and the big manufacturers can't move those gas guzzling SUV's. Market = effective. Theories = not.


And if everyone had listened to the environmentalists gas prices wouldn't be so high now, anyway. Theories = correct but not listened to.

Market = "effective" once it's too late


Why don't you quote something environmentalists were saying 50 years ago? For that matter, how is it that people didn't listen to environmentalists?

Finally, what would the state of science, technolgical, and societal advancement be if we did listen to those environmentalists at the time? Would the entire nation be a national park, and we'd be dying of things like polio for lack of ability to distribute a vaccine?

Hiow did we get to this ridiculous idea? Does anyone want to discuss Gaia theory?
Teflor does. Teflor does not.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Corth » Tue May 20, 2008 8:27 pm

Sarvis & Latreg,

Both of your most recent posts, specifically why they are wrong, were already previously addressed in great detail. I'm not going to try and reinvent the wheel. If either of you have anything new to say, I'll be happy to address it.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Sarvis » Tue May 20, 2008 8:31 pm

Really? Where did someone show that conserving gas for the last 50 years would not result in lower current prices? Feel free to just tell me who posted it or how many posts back it was...
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Corth » Tue May 20, 2008 8:40 pm

Conserving oil over the last 50 years would certainly result in less oil used. Thats pretty solid reasoning, Sarvis. But if your going to be fair in your conclusion that this would somehow be a good thing, your going to need to tell me how conditions would otherwise be different right now if billions of gallons of gasoline, capable of moving tons of steel fairly easily at speeds in excess of 60 or 70 miles per hour, for hours on end... were conserved and not used for the productive purposes that they were used for. Or, as 7 year old corth would ask, what would my grandma be like if she had balls?
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Sarvis » Tue May 20, 2008 8:47 pm

So Lathander drives an SUV because he's hauling steel around?

I thought we were talking about people driving smaller cars rather than big giant gas guzzlers, and working on replacement technologies for gasoline? I see nothing in what we suggested that said "don't haul steel across the country using something efficient for that purpose."

If gas is the most efficient way to haul steel, go for it. I think what we're really saying is that you don't need a vehicle capable of hauling steel just for your normal commute.

In short, your grandma shouldn't buy an SUV because she's compensating for her tiny balls. ;)
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Corth » Tue May 20, 2008 8:52 pm

OK dude.. vehicles are made out of steel.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Sarvis » Tue May 20, 2008 9:03 pm

Not entirely lately, but what's your point?

Would we have lower gas prices if people had listened to environmentalists and driven smaller cars, at least when they weren't transporting steel, or not?
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Corth » Wed May 21, 2008 12:00 am

Vehicles are made out of steel. Now go back and look at what I was saying before you came up with this stupid tangent.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Kifle » Wed May 21, 2008 12:06 am

Corth wrote:Vehicles are made out of steel. Now go back and look at what I was saying before you came up with this stupid tangent.


Rofl, I knew that someone was going to confuse that one.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Corth » Wed May 21, 2008 12:16 am

I think maybe the reason I am being short with Sarvis is I'm not really interested in a discussion about whether environmentalist ideas are right or wrong. I'm fairly agnostic on the issue.

What I do know is that there is reality, and there are theories. The reality is that oil was super cheap for a long time because there was an overabundance of it. The cheapness of oil made it unnecessary to conserve. There isn't anything that anyone could have done about it. The hundreds of different oil producers were going to cheaply take the stuff out of the ground no matter what. Oil would have been cheap no matter what. Sarvis is right that if people had taken steps to conserve, there would be more oil now and the price would be cheaper. And my retort is still... if my grandma had balls she'd be my grandpa. He's making up fantasies about the past. Nobody was going to conserve with oil being as cheap as it was, and nobody and no government was in any position to change things.

That being said, oil is no longer cheap and won't be going forward. Hence, we are more likely to see smaller more efficient transportation devices. The goals of the environmentalists (whether or not they are right.. I don't give a crap) are going to be accomplished by the free market. Kumbaya.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Sarvis » Wed May 21, 2008 12:45 am

Corth wrote:Vehicles are made out of steel. Now go back and look at what I was saying before you came up with this stupid tangent.


You're really just not listening to me. Steel would be unaffected. It can be transported the same way it was, and used the same way it was. It is a complete and utter non-factor to what I was saying.

Seriously, if we're going to have these discussions then at least fucking do so in good faith.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Corth » Wed May 21, 2008 12:51 am

Dude.. I WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT TRANSPORTING STEEL. I was referring to vehicles themselves as "tons of steel". This is the stupidest fucking tangent ever. I'm not discussing in good faith? There is no discussion!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Sarvis » Wed May 21, 2008 12:52 am

Corth wrote:Nobody was going to conserve with oil being as cheap as it was


Which is where the free market fails, isn't it? Or is that just too hard for you to admit? We'd be better off now if free market ideals hadn't been running the show in the past.

That being said, oil is no longer cheap and won't be going forward. Hence, we are more likely to see smaller more efficient transportation devices. The goals of the environmentalists (whether or not they are right.. I don't give a crap) are going to be accomplished by the free market. Kumbaya.


Sure they are but, and this goes back to my first fucking point for those of you who actually read what I write, not without a huge economic upheaval. Food is already ridiculously expensive, alternatives to gas aren't there and gas prices are rising. We're in trouble as a direct result of most people choosing not to conserve just because it was so cheap to use oil. We could already have better alternatives, but instead we're going to have a crisis until someone finally comes up with solutions we might already have if anyone had cared.

You can scream about your grandmother's balls all you want, the simple fact is that the free market is short-sighted. It doesn't do anything about a problem until it actually becomes a problem. It's a lot like asking for a vaccine after you catch the disease. Fuck, you're all proud of having life insurance... why not wait until you're dead to get it? That's the free market way of doing things, isn't it?
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Sarvis » Wed May 21, 2008 12:56 am

Corth wrote:Dude.. I WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT TRANSPORTING STEEL. I was referring to vehicles themselves as "tons of steel". This is the stupidest fucking tangent ever. I'm not discussing in good faith? There is no discussion!



Ok, so it still doesn't affect anything. At ALL. You can have a lighter steel car that runs more efficiently, there are many of them. I'm betting my steel-frame car eats up less gas than Lathander's steel-frame SUV.

Look, we could have conserved gas and had more now. We could have developed alternative means of moving steel-frames around. (Shipping or in car form.) We could be in a better position now.

If <i>you</i> would stop focusing on steel, maybe we would be having an actual discussion. Instead you've refused to answer the question of whether or not we'd have cheaper gas now if we'd conserved in the past. You're right, who cares about steel? It's so far from the point it's no wonder I got confused.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Corth » Wed May 21, 2008 1:02 am

Sarvis,

The free market fails in the same way that god failed because humans can be affected by disease. Its just the reality of the situation.

Your talking about hundreds of oil producers across the entire world. There was going to be a global market in oil whether any particular government or group liked it or not. Your talking about the subject like at some point a decision was reached. There was no decision. Life occurred as life was meant to occur.

The free market didn't fail, it worked exactly as could be expected. There was an overabundance of oil so prices were low. This resulted in less incentive for anyone to get into that business. Over time as demand increased, prices increased, people entered the business, prices came down. Equilibrium. Explain to me one way that this could have been done any differently, REALISTICALLY, and you win a cookie.

I don't have the time or inclination to continue arguing about a fantasy. I'm assuming we're off the 'transporting steel' tangent. Now can we get past the 'if my grandma had balls' fantasy?
Last edited by Corth on Wed May 21, 2008 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Corth » Wed May 21, 2008 1:04 am

Answering the question of whether we would have cheaper oil right now if we conserved oil in the past is exactly like answering the question about my grandmother.

Yes, Sarvis. If by some MAGICAL method, conservation was imposed upon the entire world, then there would be more oil right now and prices would be less. And likewise, if my grandma MAGICALLY had balls, she'd be my grandpa. Got it?
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Sarvis » Wed May 21, 2008 1:22 am

The magic you speak of, at least with regards to oil prices, is simply common sense.

It was possible, we just didn't do it. We didn't do it in part because of capitalism, because the free market gave no motivation to do so. There is the market's weakness. People can look past immediate gratification, corporations for various reasons are unable to. Hell, corporations make a habit of motivating us not to. Entire industries are built on convincing people to ignore the consequences of their actions!

Oh, and frankly, the right doctor could help out your grandma. :P
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Re: gas stimulus package?

Postby Ashiwi » Wed May 21, 2008 3:33 am

Tee hee. Corth, you tickled me. Your "blah, blah, blah" sounded amazingly like my "blah, blah, blah."

Corth... Microsoft has your grandmother's balls, and it didn't take fifty years to get them.

"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home." -- Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977.

There are people with visions of the future who can make it work for them, and there are people who can't see past their grandmother's unfortunate lack of a double YY chromosome.

See a need, fill a need, make a fortune. That's capitalism at its best. Photovoltaics embedded in paint is something that already exists, and the potential for viable alternatives is already out there, but it's going to take somebody with vision to bring it to the market. Once the products begin to hit the mainstream, the free market takes over and technology and innovation will create the market to support them. Environmentalism may not be highly profitable today... but for those with a vision who make the right investments today, it will be in the future. So while your grandmother doesn't have balls today, if she makes an investment into the future, there could be balls for her tomorrow.

She'll just have to steal them back from Microsoft.
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!

Return to “T2 General Discussion Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest