No E3 thread?

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Shevarash
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Shevarash » Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:10 am

Tasan wrote:
Shevarash wrote:It's just difficult to be an optimist about this industry for me, these days.


It's just difficult for me to be an optimist about Toril these days.

</troll>


Lame.
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Yasden » Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:40 am

In all honesty Sarvis, the PS3 isn't doing THAT badly. It's got over 10 million units sold now, compared to the 22 million the Wii has and the 19 million the 360 has. The price obviously is what has made the Wii the better seller of the 3, but I think the 360 and PS3 will both start taking off as the millions of Wiitards start realizing how hokey most of the games are.

And like Teyaha said, the PS Store has been out since launch.

Doug, Warhawk is an insanely awesome and addicting 3rd person arcade shooter. You just can't handle the learning curve. :P Yeah, they should've had some sort of a campaign, but they ultimately took it out during beta testing. I wish you would've stayed around, my clan on Warhawk just did really well in a GGL tournament, and we're now in the Summer season of GameBattles. They just released version 1.4 last week, with 2 new gameplay modes - Hero and Collection, which are both versions of TDM and CTF on steroids (and a LOT more fun).

If you feel like playing it at any point again, talk to me. I don't think you gave it a fair enough shake. It took me a solid two months before I actually knew fully how a lot of the mechanics worked, and I never had anyone helping me. You never took me up on my offer either of helping you out. :P
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Teyaha » Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:37 am

Sarvis wrote:
Actually Live is free. Silver membership anyway, which gets you move trailers and game demos. You can pay a rental fee to download full movies. You just need gold membership to play online multiplayer...



yep. which is exactly the same as the base playstation store. for free you get game demos and trailers. for a price you get more. advantage to M$ for having a development kit however

the only notworthy rpg on any of the systems has been mass effect. the rest have been copycats or more of the same jrpg with nothing innovative or original. however there is something to be said for being able to interpolate final fantasy X to 720p.

enchanted arms wasnt bad, but it wasnt good either. truthfully if you took mass effect ouf of the equation neither system has had a decent rpg since launch, but both have a crapton planned.

the psp and DS get the majority of the rpgs nowadays.
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:29 pm

Teyaha wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Actually Live is free. Silver membership anyway, which gets you move trailers and game demos. You can pay a rental fee to download full movies. You just need gold membership to play online multiplayer...



yep. which is exactly the same as the base playstation store. for free you get game demos and trailers. for a price you get more. advantage to M$ for having a development kit however

the only notworthy rpg on any of the systems has been mass effect. the rest have been copycats or more of the same jrpg with nothing innovative or original. however there is something to be said for being able to interpolate final fantasy X to 720p.

enchanted arms wasnt bad, but it wasnt good either. truthfully if you took mass effect ouf of the equation neither system has had a decent rpg since launch, but both have a crapton planned.

the psp and DS get the majority of the rpgs nowadays.


Umm...

Oblivion? (technically a brawler with RPG elements, but most people consider it an RPG..)
Lost Oddyssey?
Blue Dragon?
Two Worlds (technically nota good game, but it occupied my time long enough.)


Upcoming you have things like:
Tales of Vesperia
Last Remnant
Infinite Undiscovery
Fable 2

Though I'll admit most of those last ones are actionRPGs and will probabyl play like brawlers.
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Ragorn » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:14 pm

I really enjoyed Eternal Sonata, both because of the setting and musical themes, and the location-based combat system.
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Teyaha » Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:59 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Teyaha wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Actually Live is free. Silver membership anyway, which gets you move trailers and game demos. You can pay a rental fee to download full movies. You just need gold membership to play online multiplayer...



yep. which is exactly the same as the base playstation store. for free you get game demos and trailers. for a price you get more. advantage to M$ for having a development kit however

the only notworthy rpg on any of the systems has been mass effect. the rest have been copycats or more of the same jrpg with nothing innovative or original. however there is something to be said for being able to interpolate final fantasy X to 720p.

enchanted arms wasnt bad, but it wasnt good either. truthfully if you took mass effect ouf of the equation neither system has had a decent rpg since launch, but both have a crapton planned.

the psp and DS get the majority of the rpgs nowadays.


Umm...

Oblivion? (technically a brawler with RPG elements, but most people consider it an RPG..)
Lost Oddyssey?
Blue Dragon?
Two Worlds (technically nota good game, but it occupied my time long enough.)


Upcoming you have things like:
Tales of Vesperia
Last Remnant
Infinite Undiscovery
Fable 2

Though I'll admit most of those last ones are actionRPGs and will probabyl play like brawlers.


i dont really count oblivion. not only were the 360 and ps3 ports not so hot, the game was pretty old already when it was released on both consoles.

lost oddyssey and blue dragon had very mixed reviews - mostly negative. the only decent rpg so far for next-gen consoles has been mass effect and eternal sonata, although i prefer mass effect. one can only handle so many androgenous kids in rpg's anymore.

but the DS has seen a LOT of new rpg's and re-releases of snes titles, and the psp has been given several original titles in the time the ps3 and 360 have been available. final fantasy crisis core was a damn good game. the release of an updated final fantasy III (japanese version) for the DS was also very well done
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:10 pm

Teyaha wrote:i dont really count oblivion. not only were the 360 and ps3 ports not so hot, the game was pretty old already when it was released on both consoles.


According to gamefaqs it was released on the same day for the 360 and the PC. And how were they "not so hot?" It's the same damn game, except you couldn't mod it.

lost oddyssey and blue dragon had very mixed reviews - mostly negative.


That's because reviewers are idiots. Their idea of an RPG is halo with stats, and none of them can seem to get their minds around the fact that some of us enjoy turn based combat. Lost Oddyssey is what FFXII should have been.

Sure, it wasn't hugely innovative. Instead, it delivered everything that made old school RPGS great rather than the half-baked mechanics we get these days with every other RPG.

the only decent rpg so far for next-gen consoles has been mass effect and eternal sonata, although i prefer mass effect. one can only handle so many androgenous kids in rpg's anymore.


The only decent RPG... ugh. It was a good FPS, but halo with stats is not an RPG. This is the problem with reviewers and games like Lost Oddyssey, if it isn't an action game with stats tacked on they automatically say it sucks.

Ok, sorry... I'm ranting. But the bastardization of RPGs, which have traditionally been more thought/strategy based, into twitchy action games annoys me.

but the DS has seen a LOT of new rpg's and re-releases of snes titles, and the psp has been given several original titles in the time the ps3 and 360 have been available. final fantasy crisis core was a damn good game. the release of an updated final fantasy III (japanese version) for the DS was also very well done


I agree the DS is where it's at for RPGs lately, and 2d platformers... and a host of other things. I just wish I didn't get horrible neck pain whenever I tried to play a handheld system... :(

But the 360 has some good offerings, and is actively trying to improve on that front. Sony is completely ignoring it as far as I can tell, which is funny since so much of their early success came from getting Square-Enix and FFVII. Funny now, considering they just lost exclusivity on FFXIII.
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Ragorn » Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:44 pm

I characterize turn-based combat as strategy/RPG, while Halo-with-stats is more of an adventure game.

I have nothing else to add. There aren't many good RPGs on the XBox, but then again, I got tired of generic jRPGs after Final Fantasy 10.
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:51 pm

Except halo with stats isn't really an adventure game either. Those are games like Zelda (action/adventure really) or King's Quest.)

Oddly enough, everyone seems to want to call things Adventure if they don't fit pre-concevied notions of what a genre should be. Fans of western RPGs in particular like to label JRPGs as adventure games...

EDIT: I call Oblivion and most other action RPGs brawlers because that's the kind of gameplay they usually come closest to. Simple combos, lots of enemies and maybe some kind of buyable skills or weapons you can pick up. Look at River City Ransom and tell me how modern ARPGs differ from that formula beyond having a larger story and sidequests.
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Yasden » Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:39 pm

If they had added the RPG element to Assassin's Creed, it easily could've taken GOTY. I'm still looking forward to the other 2 games in the trilogy, and I hope they change it up and give Desmond/Altair some more depth and abilities, not just weapons and some defensive/counter moves. Platforming (even if the AC style is pretty damn cool) gets old, and the world they had for the game was large enough that they could've avoided a lot of this if they'd implemented other forms of gameplay. I often found myself just sticking to the rooftops except when I was doing all the side missions, finding flags, or assassinating the templars. I completed the game 100%, and with all the old real life mysteries they wrapped into it, I'm excited to see where the series takes us.
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:00 pm

Yasden wrote:If they had added the RPG element to Assassin's Creed, it easily could've taken GOTY. I'm still looking forward to the other 2 games in the trilogy, and I hope they change it up and give Desmond/Altair some more depth and abilities, not just weapons and some defensive/counter moves. Platforming (even if the AC style is pretty damn cool) gets old, and the world they had for the game was large enough that they could've avoided a lot of this if they'd implemented other forms of gameplay. I often found myself just sticking to the rooftops except when I was doing all the side missions, finding flags, or assassinating the templars. I completed the game 100%, and with all the old real life mysteries they wrapped into it, I'm excited to see where the series takes us.


I swear that game took me three times as long as it should have, just because it was so fun murdering the guards. You'd think they'd learn, but no... even at the end of the game you can kill a guard standing right next to another one and walk away, or even get behind the second guy while he's walking over to see what's wrong.

I'm surprised some cities had any guards left, really...
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Teyaha » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:59 am

for me, the story makes the rpg. most are highly repetitive in their own right. the story in mass effect was fantastic and original. the only downer to the game was it was far too short. hopefully this is addressed in mass effect 2.

also consider that in the sequel any moral decisions you made for your character in the first carry over to the second.

there hasnt been a quality jrpg in quite a while. not since final fantasy VIII on the ps2.
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Teyaha » Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:02 am

Sarvis wrote:
EDIT: I call Oblivion and most other action RPGs brawlers because that's the kind of gameplay they usually come closest to. Simple combos, lots of enemies and maybe some kind of buyable skills or weapons you can pick up. Look at River City Ransom and tell me how modern ARPGs differ from that formula beyond having a larger story and sidequests.



but that's exactly what jprg's are. simple combos, lots of enemies - either random spawn or respawnable (at least in mass effect they stayed dead and didnt respawn), in final fantasy X, X-2 and XII you bought skills with items via a skills tree just to give an example.
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:20 am

Teyaha wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
EDIT: I call Oblivion and most other action RPGs brawlers because that's the kind of gameplay they usually come closest to. Simple combos, lots of enemies and maybe some kind of buyable skills or weapons you can pick up. Look at River City Ransom and tell me how modern ARPGs differ from that formula beyond having a larger story and sidequests.



but that's exactly what jprg's are. simple combos, lots of enemies - either random spawn or respawnable (at least in mass effect they stayed dead and didnt respawn), in final fantasy X, X-2 and XII you bought skills with items via a skills tree just to give an example.


No, no isn't. At all. First of all you don't get combos in turn based combat. You select an action and it happens. There's QUITE a difference between selecting Head Lop 1 and Tapping XX -> XX YY to get the same effect. Or worse yet, buying a skill and suddenly just tapping X once to get the effect.

In short, in an action game player reflexes are what matter. In an RPG player thinking is what matters. When you move away from a turn based system you move more towards a reflex-based gameplay.

So no good RPGs after FFVII? You said before reviews claimed Lost Oddyssey was bad... so that makes it sound like you never played it. Maybe you should. Maybe, just maybe, judging games without playing them is silly. (FF9 and FFX were pretty cool also, though FF6 still reigns supreme.)
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Teyaha » Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:22 am

but that's exactly what jrpg's are. they are not so much turn based since X as they are 'ok, waiting for my attack to recharge'. did you play 12? it just just as adventure-ish as mass effect.

if you were to play mass effect as a biotic you'd get that 'waiting for power to recharge' thing. and to be honest, the jrpg makers are moving away from what little turn-based is left and moving towards real time. final fantasy crisis core is a great example of this, as apparantly will be final fantasy 13. oh, and there are no combos as you describe them in mass effect or crisis core. but final fantasy has had effects that can happen on critical hits as well as break limits since final fantasy VI (III in the states) where your char DID do something special and combo-ish as you describe a combo above.

what makes an rpg is levelling up, customization and developing story that you can have (even minor) an impact on. turn based or real time really is irrelevent. mass effect was a much greater success sales wise than anything else that has been put on these consoles and it has nothing to do with it being halo with stats and everything to do with it being an engrossing roleplaying game by a fantastic company with a track record for making engrossing roleplaying games.

hell, the criteria you listed for a true rpg...well that makes warcraft III and starcraft II rpg's i guess.


and i agree with the critics on lost odyssey. still have that $25 trade-in credit from EB, saving it for wotlk
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Alta » Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:58 am

Nintendo targetted children with the Wii and left Microsoft and Sony to duke it out for the high end gamer. I think you can factor the "obesity crisis" into their sales and they reached a new market... grandma and grandpa??? That was some amazing planning (luck).

DS is awesome. Its cheap, it works and its cheap and it has a zillion games and its cheap.

Now look at what drove success for both of these Nintendo products. Innovation. An innovative controller. Wireless and a dual screen display one of which is a touch screen. The touch screen is pretty gay in some games, but in others it takes clicks out of the interface and becomes a real time saver by streamling actions.

Flashy graphics are awesome, but they wear off. Its all about game play and downloadable content if you ask me.
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Teyaha » Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:35 am

exactly alta. what good is a next-gen rpg going to be if it's still the same old gameplay, or the game itself suffers because they want to make it pretty?

excellent case in point - ace combat 6 on the 360


the ace combat series has never had a real dud. they hve been long games with great gameplay, decent graphics for the system they are on and have great stories

then we get ace combat 6. still a good game, still a decent story - but nowhere near up to the standards. the voice acting was pathetic especially with how amazing 5 was and the game overall was insanely short

it felt like they skimped on content in favor of fancy graphics

halo 3 had the exact same issue. the single player campaign did not live up to the standards set by halo and halo 2 - not by a longshot - and many believe it's because too much time was spent on making it pretty and not enough was spent on content

now that these developers have had time to work out the kinks in their workflows i can only hope they no longer let this happen
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:59 pm

Teyaha wrote:but that's exactly what jrpg's are. they are not so much turn based since X as they are 'ok, waiting for my attack to recharge'. did you play 12? it just just as adventure-ish as mass effect.


Again, neither of them were adventure games, oddly enough. Frankly, FFXII was barely a game at all since the best way to "play" was to set options on your characters and then watch them handle every fight with AI.

What is it with people and the need to label everything Adventure?

if you were to play mass effect as a biotic you'd get that 'waiting for power to recharge' thing.


Maybe, but you get a lot more of the "I have to use my reflexes to aim and hit the right enemies." Other FPS games have had recharging powers also. That's kind of the point here: Mass Effect plays like Halo. Look at the gameplay, make comparisons and see what it's like. Going into a status screen every few minutes to assign points barely affects the gameplay at all.

and to be honest, the jrpg makers are moving away from what little turn-based is left and moving towards real time.


Yes, that's what I'm complaining about.

final fantasy crisis core is a great example of this, as apparantly will be final fantasy 13. oh, and there are no combos as you describe them in mass effect or crisis core. but final fantasy has had effects that can happen on critical hits as well as break limits since final fantasy VI (III in the states) where your char DID do something special and combo-ish as you describe a combo above.


Yeah, again... selecting a limit break out of a menu is not the same as stringing together combos in, say, Ninja Gaiden. A lot of these newer actionRPGs, however, ARE more like Ninja Gaiden. Since when did River City Ransom become an RPG? IF you can answer that, you can call these new action games RPGS. Maybe later on we'll call Ninja Gaiden an RPG.

what makes an rpg is levelling up, customization and developing story that you can have (even minor) an impact on.


So GTA3 is an RPG? Does that make GTAIV one even though they ditched the stats, but gave you more choices in the story? what about JRPGs where you never really have an impact on the story?

See, doesn't work. Story is not gameplay, and any story can be told using any style of gameplay. Leveling up and customization are the same. What we're seeing now is a ton of action games having stats, levels and story grafted onto them and then being called RPGs. The problem is they are still action games, I still play Mass Effect the same way I played Quake. (Well, not really with the better options for cover and all... but you get the point.)

turn based or real time really is irrelevent. mass effect was a much greater success sales wise than anything else that has been put on these consoles and it has nothing to do with it being halo with stats and everything to do with it being an engrossing roleplaying game by a fantastic company with a track record for making engrossing roleplaying games.


Right. Because the RPG market has always been larger than the FPS market? Maybe it sold more because the FPS gamers went "hey look, a new style of FPS" while the RPG fans went "hey look, a BioWare game... have faith in them so let's try it."

If it was just selling to hte RPG gamer market it wouldn't have outsold jack.

hell, the criteria you listed for a true rpg...well that makes warcraft III and starcraft II rpg's i guess.


Yeah right, because no reflexes are required to manage all those troops in real time. IT's ALL about spending 5 minutes plotting your next move. :roll:



and i agree with the critics on lost odyssey. still have that $25 trade-in credit from EB, saving it for wotlk


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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Teyaha » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:18 pm

well firstly, you were the one labelling everything adventure

secondly, ninja gaiden was never billed as an rpg

and lastly, warcraft III was turn based, had character levels and stats. pretty much meets your earlier criteria for an rpg

innovation is a good thing. i'm not saying final fantasy 12 was a good thing, that game was trash, but crisis core was not trash. it was an excellent game - and no, it had no combo strings. mass effect had no combo strings. kotor had no combo strings. i have no idea where you are getting combo strings from any game that was billed as an rpg.

i never played grand theft auto nor will i ever, but that has more to do with what i believe should and should not be made into a game and not the game's mechanics. if gta has levelling up, customizable stats and attributes to go along with a long and engaging storyling that you the player can influence - that is an rpg. whether it has dice, turn-based combat or real time combat really is irrelevent.
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:50 pm

Teyaha wrote:well firstly, you were the one labelling everything adventure

secondly, ninja gaiden was never billed as an rpg

and lastly, warcraft III was turn based, had character levels and stats. pretty much meets your earlier criteria for an rpg

innovation is a good thing. i'm not saying final fantasy 12 was a good thing, that game was trash, but crisis core was not trash. it was an excellent game - and no, it had no combo strings. mass effect had no combo strings. kotor had no combo strings. i have no idea where you are getting combo strings from any game that was billed as an rpg.

i never played grand theft auto nor will i ever, but that has more to do with what i believe should and should not be made into a game and not the game's mechanics. if gta has levelling up, customizable stats and attributes to go along with a long and engaging storyling that you the player can influence - that is an rpg. whether it has dice, turn-based combat or real time combat really is irrelevent.


I never said anything was Adventure, except Zelda and King's Quest. I even qualified the Zelda comment, as it's really an ActionRPG. Go ahead, go back and look.

Never said Ninja Gaiden was billed as an RPG, but if you added stats to it everyone these days WOULD call it an RPG. How much difference is there, really, between Ninja Gaiden and Jade Empire? HEll, you even have to buy levels for your swords in NG so you can unlock new combos... just like buying techniques in JE.

You may remember I likened ME to an FPS, and never said anything about it having combo strings. I never mentioned the others. I was differentiating between brawlers with stats and RPGs, while the other group is, of course, FPS games with stats. Neither of those are RPGs... they are what they are: Brawlers with stats.

KOTOR was Real-Time w/ Pause combat anyway, right? RTwP tends to just barely qualify as RPG style since you can stop, think and plan out your actions ahead of time. It's usualy not as good as full turn based though. Look at ToEE compared to Neverwinter Nights 2 for a comparison of how much depth you lose from a combat system when you move away from turn based.

AS for where I got combo strings? Look at something like Jade Empire. Or a ton of other action RPGs where you basically have a 3 person party with 2 AI controlled characters and the player just button mashes things to kill them. Kingdom Hearts, anyone?

GTA:SA has those elements, GTA 3 and GTAIV do not. They all play the same, so how are they different genres? Oh, of course you have more influence over the story in GTAIV without those improvable stats and customization... so I'm onfused. Which one matters? Or could it be that neither does, that the ACTUAL GAMEPLAY matters?

I'm sorry, but if you take tetris and add customizable stats to control things like how fast the tiles fall or how often a certain tile falls it suddenly becomes an RPG? If you put a cutscene in between each stage?

No. Just, no.



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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Shevarash » Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:12 pm

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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Botef » Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:25 pm

Teyaha wrote:
and lastly, warcraft III was turn based, had character levels and stats. pretty much meets your earlier criteria for an rpg



Uh wth are you talking about lol.
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:07 pm

Botef wrote:
Teyaha wrote:
and lastly, warcraft III was turn based, had character levels and stats. pretty much meets your earlier criteria for an rpg



Uh wth are you talking about lol.


Crap, I need more points in my pedantic nitpicking skill... I forgot to point that out!
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby kiryan » Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:13 pm

lol shev

I'm a first person shooter!@

and sorry that was me posting as alta, damn auto login. If I had to pick one game system to own, it would be the DS. I'm just too busy to play xbox or ps or even the wii and in the absence of spectacular graphic capabilities, the developers make good games with good game play.

For a second console, I'd buy xbox 360 although I thought about ps3. And the game console cycle is very well designed and I do believe its 4 or 5 years. If Sony is not planning on replacing PS3 within 3 years, I'll be shocked and it will be one hell of a gamble. It may make them a ton of money, but more than likely it will give old PS like dominance of the market.
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Teyaha » Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:55 am

Botef wrote:
Teyaha wrote:
and lastly, warcraft III was turn based, had character levels and stats. pretty much meets your earlier criteria for an rpg



Uh wth are you talking about lol.



you had heroes like arthas and thrall when you played through the single player campaign. they levelled up and learned new abilities, found new items and their stats increased although you couldn customize them. and the game was about as turn-based as the jrpg's - real time, but you had to wait for shit to recharge or build. ever put your combat to 'wait' in final fantasy VI and just sat ther not picking a command? the mobs still attacked - on wait

so although billed as a strategy game, WCIII certainly had quite a few RPG elements beyond elves and dwarves.
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Teyaha » Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:58 am

kiryan wrote:
For a second console, I'd buy xbox 360 although I thought about ps3. And the game console cycle is very well designed and I do believe its 4 or 5 years. If Sony is not planning on replacing PS3 within 3 years, I'll be shocked and it will be one hell of a gamble. It may make them a ton of money, but more than likely it will give old PS like dominance of the market.


i think the longevity of the current crop of consoles will be muchl onger th an 5 years.

the ps2 is still technically going strong. if it wasnt for the explosive growth in sales of HD TV's i think we'd still be in ps2/xbox systems.

unless tv's start going above 1080 i really do thin it's going to be a long while before we see upgrades to the ps3/xbox 360 that are really and truly next-gen consoles.
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Sarvis » Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:38 am

Teyaha wrote:
Botef wrote:
Teyaha wrote:
and lastly, warcraft III was turn based, had character levels and stats. pretty much meets your earlier criteria for an rpg



Uh wth are you talking about lol.



you had heroes like arthas and thrall when you played through the single player campaign. they levelled up and learned new abilities, found new items and their stats increased although you couldn customize them. and the game was about as turn-based as the jrpg's - real time, but you had to wait for shit to recharge or build. ever put your combat to 'wait' in final fantasy VI and just sat ther not picking a command? the mobs still attacked - on wait

so although billed as a strategy game, WCIII certainly had quite a few RPG elements beyond elves and dwarves.


1) The Active Time Battle system used in FFIV-9 is not turn based, it was developed specifically as a replacement for turn-based combat.
2) Frankly, except in FFX-2 the timer was so slow that it was barely discernable from turn based combat.
3) Waiting for an ability to recharge is not the same as waiting for your next action, you keep attacking and doing other things in the meantime while in the ATB system you do nothing until the next action timer.


Now, as for the stats and levels thing... you're holding WCIII up as an absurdity to prove that levels and stats don't make a game an RPG right? So then why does Mass Effect, Jade Empire or Kingdom Hearts qualify since that's the only RPG-ish trait they offer?

RPGs used to be a thinking game. You saw a group of enemies, and attempted to beat them as swiftly as possible through skill/spell selection and proper assignment. This new crop of "RPGs" depends in ever greater degrees upon reflex. Who cares if you're waiting for a skill to recharge in Mass Effect, you still have to twitch the crosshair into just the right place for it to work. That used to be called an action game. It still should be called an action game.

Sometimes I want my games to involve thinking and strategy, and that's what I always turned to RPGs for. That's going away from the hobby, and that sucks. So talk all you want about how my criteria include RTS games, or how the story is the deciding factor. You're just muddying the waters and masking the fact that an entire style of gameplay is disappearing.

the ps2 is still technically going strong.


Yeah, because no one wants a PS3. :P (Doesn't help that they removed backwards compatibility either.)
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Botef » Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:31 pm

I suppose reloading your gun in counter strike makes it turn based as well.
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Teyaha » Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:54 pm

Botef wrote:I suppose reloading your gun in counter strike makes it turn based as well.


that's absurd.

a role-playing game is defined by the following criteria:

persistant characters
level (or skill) based advancement
stats that rise as the game progresses
long story-driven content


you need those 4 at a minimum for it to be a ROLE-PLAYING game. lets not forget what role-playing means

roleplaying

noun
acting a particular role (as in psychotherapy)

but for a game to be classed in the roleplaying category, it needs the above criteria. so saying counterstrike is an rpg is far more absurd than classing WCIII as both an rpg and a strategy game since WCIII meets more of t hose above criteria than counterstrike.

so sarvis i still dont get your argument - if your preferred version of role playing games is turn-based as in final fantasy III and earlier (japanese versions) wouldnt it be safer to say you are simply unable to grow and adapt, since final fantasy VI is considered to be the best jrpg of all time?
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Teyaha » Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:58 pm

Sarvis wrote:Yeah, because no one wants a PS3. :P (Doesn't help that they removed backwards compatibility either.)



again you work from completely bullshit information

all ps2 and ps1 games work and run on my ps3

the 360 has far more issues with backwards compatibility. the 360 will NOT RUN mechassault at all. it has a limited number of backwards compatible titles, and that compatibility was not available at launch on the 360 - it has always been available on the ps3. in fact on the ps3 i can get all my save games off my old ps2 AND ps1 memory cards and put them on the ps3.

seriously, you dont have to like the system but dont post about crap you have no clue on. i just finished chrono trigger which was on a final fantasy anthology disc. played it on my ps3. it's a ps1 disc.

the only games that dont work on the ps3 are the same 7 games that dont work on the ps2 - the 7 launch titles for the ps1 (psx)
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Sarvis » Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:53 pm

Teyaha wrote:
Sarvis wrote:Yeah, because no one wants a PS3. :P (Doesn't help that they removed backwards compatibility either.)



again you work from completely bullshit information

all ps2 and ps1 games work and run on my ps3

the 360 has far more issues with backwards compatibility. the 360 will NOT RUN mechassault at all. it has a limited number of backwards compatible titles, and that compatibility was not available at launch on the 360 - it has always been available on the ps3. in fact on the ps3 i can get all my save games off my old ps2 AND ps1 memory cards and put them on the ps3.

seriously, you dont have to like the system but dont post about crap you have no clue on. i just finished chrono trigger which was on a final fantasy anthology disc. played it on my ps3. it's a ps1 disc.

the only games that dont work on the ps3 are the same 7 games that dont work on the ps2 - the 7 launch titles for the ps1 (psx)


Good for you. They discontinued it, so you got a system from before that happened. Maybe YOU should stop posting about htings you have no clue about: http://www.mcvuk.com/news/29601/PS3-bac ... esurrected
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Sarvis » Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:07 pm

Teyaha wrote:
Botef wrote:I suppose reloading your gun in counter strike makes it turn based as well.


that's absurd.

a role-playing game is defined by the following criteria:


You may not have noticed, but Botef said NOTHING about RPGs... he said TURN BASED. You are claiming that WC3 is turn based because of recharge times, which you have in Counter Strike as well with reload times. That alone makes your reply completely irrelevant!

persistant characters
level (or skill) based advancement
stats that rise as the game progresses
long story-driven content


Hey, Ninja Gaiden 2 IS an RPG! You have:

Persistant Character: Ryu
Level/Skill Advancement: Spending "essence" on weapon levels for new combos, improving health, improving MP
Stats that rise as game progresses: Again, health and MP... not really a different category from skill/level advancement
Long story-driven content: There's definately a story, one man's struggle to contain an ancient evil in fact. Hell, practically the plotline of any early RPG. It even has cutscenes that are so popular in RPGs these days... hell the series invented cutscenes! Oh, and what about Elder Scrolls games where the story is basically there in the background? Those are hardly story driven, you get the most out of the game when you ignore the story!

So yep, Ninja Gaiden 2 is an RPG. Good job on defining an action game into an RPG!

Now maybe you'll try to deal with what I said, rather than misreading something else and trying to turn that into some kind of "win" against my argument.

Please discuss how two games with the same type of gameplay are different because one has numbers that go up.

Please explain why two different kinds of gameplay are the same genre.

Please explain why my theoretical tetris game, which fits your criteria, is or is not an RPG.

Please explain how you'll differentiate between RPGs and Action titles when every action game adds stats so they can attempt to sell to both markets.



you need those 4 at a minimum for it to be a ROLE-PLAYING game. lets not forget what role-playing means

roleplaying

noun
acting a particular role (as in psychotherapy)


Not even possible to do in a single player video game. There is no interaction, no back and forth... no reaction to your acting. Saying "roleplaying" defines the VIDEO GAME genre RPG is absurd. It will always be absurd until you can get an AI good enough to actually react to your character. THEN there will be a difference between how you play Cloud and how I play Cloud.

but for a game to be classed in the roleplaying category, it needs the above criteria. so saying counterstrike is an rpg is far more absurd than classing WCIII as both an rpg and a strategy game since WCIII meets more of t hose above criteria than counterstrike.


Saying counterstrike is an RPG (even though no one did) is no less absurd that calling MAss Effect an RPG. Guess what, you do the same thing in both games: line up a crosshair and pull the trigger.

so sarvis i still dont get your argument - if your preferred version of role playing games is turn-based as in final fantasy III and earlier (japanese versions) wouldnt it be safer to say you are simply unable to grow and adapt, since final fantasy VI is considered to be the best jrpg of all time?


Oh gooooood. Now you're trying to insult me. Look, this is simple. There is a style of gameplay I like, which is rapidly disappearing. This doesn't mean I'm stuck in the past, it doesn't mean I can't enjoy new things. It means something I like is going away, and you're helping it happen by muddying the waters. I don't care if you want a story driven game, that's fine. There can be story driven FPS games. In fact, there are and I enjoyed them. Mass Effect was a good story driven FPS.

Don't call it an RPG though, it does not have RPG gameplay.
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby kiryan » Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:19 am

Are you sure the high end PS3's don't support PS2/PS1 games? I was pretty sure that I had read that only the "cheap" version of the PS3 doesn't support PS2 anymore... They did that last October or something to try and pump up PS3 sales...
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Sarvis » Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:11 am

Could be, I thought it was removed from all models but that article's not really clear. In any case the cheapest one is the only one I would consider buying so it doesn't help me any. ;)
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Teyaha » Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:36 am

actually i was not insulting you. you have clearly defined what you consider an rpg.

but nobody has made an rpg with turn-based combat in a long time, and on no system since the super nintendo.

one of the better rpg's of the 16 bit era was shining in the darkness. it was first person, but combat was turn based. something tells me you'd consider that an fps too.

mass effect is an rpg. it's classed that way whether or not you like it. you may need to grow and adapt your thinking about rpgs as i said because the genre is changing and adapting to the new technology. kotor was an rpg. in fact kotor and mass effect were built based on the star wars tabletop RPG rulesets. just because it doesnt have little sprites, male chars with female clothes and faces or come from japan doesnt make it any less of a role playing game. your view is unique and not shared with the majority - including those who are both buying and making these games.

the 360 still has the worst backwards compability. ever played kotor on a 360? besides the fact that the machine wont even interpolate the games to full screen on a 16:9 monitor (the ps3 will do that for all ps2 and ps1 games) it is extremely glitchy. some games simply wont run. the list of supported games are small but that's not really a problem - the original xbox didnt have anywhere near as many good titles as the ps2. i have had to keep my original xbox to still be able to play those games without a hitch, whereas i gave my ps2 and ps1 away.

i bought http://www.ebgames.com/Catalog/ProductD ... t_id=68044 for my sister for her birthday in june. it runs her ps2 game library just fine.

i'm surprised nobody has mentioned the red ring of death which is still occurring on machines manufactured this very year.
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Sarvis » Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:59 am

Teyaha wrote:actually i was not insulting you. you have clearly defined what you consider an rpg.

but nobody has made an rpg with turn-based combat in a long time, and on no system since the super nintendo.


FF10, Lost Oddyssey and Blue Dragon are all pure turn based. Temple of Elemental Evil was turn based. There are others I can't recall right now.

one of the better rpg's of the 16 bit era was shining in the darkness. it was first person, but combat was turn based. something tells me you'd consider that an fps too.


If it was turn based, then no I wouldn't. It is not an action game.

mass effect is an rpg. it's classed that way whether or not you like it. you may need to grow and adapt your thinking about rpgs as i said because the genre is changing and adapting to the new technology. kotor was an rpg. in fact kotor and mass effect were built based on the star wars tabletop RPG rulesets. just because it doesnt have little sprites, male chars with female clothes and faces or come from japan doesnt make it any less of a role playing game. your view is unique and not shared with the majority - including those who are both buying and making these games.

Wow, so remind me where I said anything about style of dress or gender roles? Oh wait, you can't because you're trying to make a point with a really, really bad straw man argument.

I haven't even really lined out what makes a game an RPG other than to say it should be different than an action game. Mass Effect is not different than Halo, except that you can raise stats. The fact is that no matter how high my sniping skills were in ME I didn't hit things better than I do in Halo. This is because it is MY reflexes and aiming skill that matter, not the characters. That is the big thing that makes an RPG: The result of actions depends on the CHARACTER skills/stats rather than the player's reflexes.

In Final Fantasy you miss if the virtual dice combined with your stats say you miss. In D&D you miss if your strength bonus plus your THAC0 do not beat the enemies AC. You see this in EVERY true RPG and some action RPGs.

You do not see it in Mass Effect. What you get in ME is that if you aim the crosshair in the right place and time it right you hit. You get that with Oblivion too. Oddly enough that's exactly how Halo works. Funny how you are claiming those are different types of games.

Why is ME, a game in which you run around shooting enemies, different from Halo, a game in which you run around shooting enemies? Ok, ME uses an over the shoulder camera. That's about it.

Can you really go play Mass Effect, then go play Lost Oddyssey or FF10 and say they are the same kind of gameplay? Oh wait, no... you can't. You admitted as much when you said ME is a new kind of game I'd have to get used to. See, they are DIFFERENT and therefore you cannot call them the same thing. Stop trying to.

Mass Effect is a great game in it's own right. It is not an RPG.

ave had to keep my original xbox to still be able to play those games without a hitch, whereas i gave my ps2 and ps1 away.


That's great if you happen to have one of the models that supports it. Unfortunately for your point the most available and likely to be bought version of the system has NO backwards compatibility whatsoever, which is far worse than the 360s.


i'm surprised nobody has mentioned the red ring of death which is still occurring on machines manufactured this very year.


Yeah, we'll see how the PS3s hold up. I didn't ave very good luck with first generation PS or PS2, whihc is the only reason I care about the backwards compatibility of a PS3. See, right now I can't play any of my PS2 games.
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Yasden » Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:02 pm

I've got a first-gen PS3, and mine plays all my PS1 and PS2 games fine. 60gb, soon to be 320gb. And like Teyaha said, it was the lower end models that they skimped on, by removing features like the media card readers in the front, doing away with the HDMI port (I think this has since changed), and some other minor features to cut costs to boost sales on the machine.

In all honesty though, if you're gonna buy a piece of advanced technology, why not just go all out and pony up the extra cash for all the features? I've used my media card readers and my PS3 is connected to my 62" Toshiba DLP 1080i via HDMI. I use the optical port to connect to my home theater system (1000W JVC), and I honestly have to say that there's nothing like the surround sound effects you get from Ridge Racer 7 or RFOM when you've got the speakers cranked up.

If I were to ever buy a 360, I'd get the best model out there, even if I had to wait. Seems stupid to skimp on the features that you could use right away just to save a few dollars. With the inflation rate, future gaming consoles will hit the $1000 mark if not more in the next 10-15 years, so the extra 50-100 dollars you save now really means nothing.
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Sarvis » Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:45 pm

Yasden wrote:I've got a first-gen PS3, and mine plays all my PS1 and PS2 games fine. 60gb, soon to be 320gb. And like Teyaha said, it was the lower end models that they skimped on, by removing features like the media card readers in the front, doing away with the HDMI port (I think this has since changed), and some other minor features to cut costs to boost sales on the machine.


Huh, didn't know that they cut the HDMI in cheaper models. I would have probably gotten screwed by that if I had bought one...

In all honesty though, if you're gonna buy a piece of advanced technology, why not just go all out and pony up the extra cash for all the features?


I did with the 360. The funny thing is that the top of the line 360 is still cheaper than the mid-grade PS3.

With the inflation rate, future gaming consoles will hit the $1000 mark if not more in the next 10-15 years, so the extra 50-100 dollars you save now really means nothing.


In the next 10-15 years I should be making a lot more money, too. Right now $150 is quite a bit of money to me!
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Corth » Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:35 pm

Yasden wrote:With the inflation rate, future gaming consoles will hit the $1000 mark if not more in the next 10-15 years, so the extra 50-100 dollars you save now really means nothing.


Rofl, with that logic, I guess it would never ever make any sense to save money.

You forgot the other side of the equation. With historical stock market rate of return, the $500 you didn't spend on a gaming system right now should be about $1,000 in your brokerage account in 10 years.
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Teyaha » Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:08 pm

if i remember right the 360 didnt launch with hdmi. i was using a friends until the halo version was launched because of all the red rings of death and lack of hdmi port. i figured by then they should have had the ring problem figured out. well, i was wrong on that front - but my personal 360 hasnt had a problem.

ps3 had a lot of things they could cut to save money, but i enjoy the wifi mine has. one less cable to route under the house.
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Sarvis » Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:17 pm

Corth wrote:
Yasden wrote:With the inflation rate, future gaming consoles will hit the $1000 mark if not more in the next 10-15 years, so the extra 50-100 dollars you save now really means nothing.


Rofl, with that logic, I guess it would never ever make any sense to save money.

You forgot the other side of the equation. With historical stock market rate of return, the $500 you didn't spend on a gaming system right now should be about $1,000 in your brokerage account in 10 years.



Wow, so if you save all your money now by not buying a game system you'll have enough to buy a game system in 10 years! Great motivation to save there. :roll:
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Corth » Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:32 pm

I was not saying you should forego buying a game system now so that you can buy one in 10 years and have a few extra bucks. I was pointing out the fallacy in Yasden's message which is that spending extra now doesn't make a difference because it will cost so much more in the future. He didn't take into account the fact that money saved right now will likely double over that time span as well.
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Yasden » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:12 pm

You're right. However, when you're buying a system, are you really thinking about your savings account? A financially responsible person generally wouldn't even buy a new console at launch, and wait a year or more for the system to drop in price.

However, there's also flawed logic in your statement too. In 10-15 years, that money you saved will be worth almost the same as if it were still the $500 10 years ago....so where's the overall gain?

I think Shev's photo pretty much summed this thread up....blah. :P
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Corth » Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:40 am

Yasden,

There generally would be a gain insofar as average inflation is about 3-4% and average stock market returns are around 7%. We're not talking a lot of money in this particular example, but given the average numbers you probably would end up ahead 10 years later. However, I wasn't making a financial argument - I was correcting the misconception that you may as well spend money today since tomorrow things will cost more money. What you don't spend today will grow in excess of inflation under most circumstances. But if we're talking about a few hundred bucks and you want to buy a game system.. go crazy.. have fun.

FYI, I'm the kind of guy who buys 2 year's ago technology. Haven't bought one of the newer consoles yet. But then again, I don't consider myself much of a gamer. I'll want to play the newest GTA at some point, but I can wait a couple of years and do it at a big discount. Not saying its a better or worse way of doing things.. its just a reflection of my priorities.
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:05 am

Err... why wait a couple years? At this point you could probably get a used 360 cheaper than a new one 2 years from now...
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Corth
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Re: No E3 thread?

Postby Corth » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:09 am

Shrug.. will get a used one in 2 years a lot cheaper than now. :)

I'm not a gamer. Wouldn't make a difference to me if its now, two years, or 10 years. I basically just play the GTA series.. and I didn't hold my breath to buy it the day it came out.

Actually.. the smarter thing at this point would be for me to rent a console...
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.

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