Clairify for Obama or McCain

[kiryan]

America is known for its work ethic and results

It is? Forgive me, but - known where?

here's one place for example, but its well known to anyone who actually follows economics or has 5 seconds to search google. Americans are some of the most productive workers in the world and basically always have been. I don't think you can argue that we are a top source of innovation and research.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/ ... 8735.shtml

[Ragorn]

On television today a Democratic operative pointed out that when Obama holds a rally 25,000-30,000 people show up, whereas when McCain holds one he only draws 10,000-15,000.
The Republican spokesman replied,
'That's because McCain's supporters are at work.'

email someone sent me.. LOL

Posted about six times elsewhere on the forum :P

Along with "the orderlies don't usually let them outside that late in the afternoon."

[therdann]

I dont read all the forums :P... delete it! still funny I must of missed the joke thread.

[Ragorn]

I dont read all the forums :P... delete it! still funny I must of missed the joke thread.

http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=20493

[kiryan]

LOL I went to an Obama rally.

guess who was there. Every teacher and school administrator and state worker I knew.

[Kifle]

LOL I went to an Obama rally.

guess who was there. Every teacher and school administrator and state worker I knew.

Probably because they're sick of being underfunded and overworked. I saw a McCain rally the other day; guess who was there. A lot of rich white men and their trophy wives.

[Sarvis]

Mmmmm.... trophy wives.

[Corth]

Rofl.. my wife is a teacher. Its the best job ever. You have 180 work days a year and (at least around where I live), get paid a pretty decent salary.

My feeling in general is government workers have it made. Great benefits, defined benefit pensions, decent money.. and even if you are a lazy shit you don't get fired so consequentially most of them are lazy shits.

[Kifle]

Lol, Corth. Those work days are long. A good teacher will take 2+hrs out of their "free" time to plan and grade papers. Most teachers are mandated to be at school an hour prior to the students for meetings. In reality, teachers often work 10-12hrs a day. On top of that there are non-instructional work days (anywhere from 10-50 or so) dependant upon the state, county, or district. And to say it's easy to "teach" people who mostly don't want to learn and somehow get this shitstains to perform well on standardized tests is laughable at best. Not to mention inner-city schools and the added danger factor there. Yeah, the holidays are great, but not getting paid and having to get a suplemental job during the summers isn't always seen as a benefit (although you can opt to earn less through the work year and get paid during summer, but the paycheck is horrible). I believe the average salary for teachers is very close to 30k, so I'm not sure how that is considered "decent" for a college graduate to be making 10yrs after they start their job.

Hell, lawyering doesn't seem to hard as long as you're competent. Sitting in a courthouse or "library" reading all day isn't too demanding :) Unless you're cross-training in order to chase those ambulances :)

[kiryan]

I agree with Corth.

I think 10-12 hours a day is the exception not the rule. In my school district they start around 8:30 am and leave by 3:30 pm. They get a prep period and a lunch, and even though they only work 60-75% of the year they take vacation during the school year and their benefits are guaranteed (IE the pensions may have lost money last week, but the government guarantees they will get their money). The whole "grading" papers thing is an argument that may have been valid during the 80s and 90s, but I don't see it anymore.

Its a sweet gig and we need to wake up and smell the coffee and demand changes. Public employees get a hell of a deal in a lot of cases.

[Corth]

Teacher salaries around here top out at around 120k. Pension and benefits are amazing. My wife puts in probably 9 or 10 hours a day.. but then again, only 180 work days a year. A lot of her coworkers, especially the ones who have been doing it for 10-15 years or so, basically phone it in. Lots of job security for public employees in general, but teachers with tenure in particular.

I would switch jobs with her in a second. No doubt about it. Hell, the cops around here make over 100k a year. Retire after 20 years and you get something like 75% of your final pay as a pension plus cost of living increases. I know a lawyer who retired as a detective in his early 40's, went to law school and graduated, and now collects basically 2 salaries.

[kiryan]

http://www.reuters.com/article/politics ... AZ20081024

Article critical of Democrats on trade and business.

Democrats slogan of "we're going to stop giving tax breaks to companies who ship our jobs overseas" is retarded. What tax breaks are they talking about?

Let me ask this, if Nike is making shoes in the US at $8 an hour, how are they going to do when competing with abc shoe company making them in China for 40 cents an hour? The only way you can, maybe is by raising import tariffs so that Chinese shoes cost the same as American made Nikes (in the US).

The auto industry is really funny. People like to blame low import taxes and no unions at Japanese car manufactuers for the loss of market share for American companies. Funny thing is that a lot (if not most) cars made by Japanese companies are made right here in the USA while the US companies were shifting their manufacturing to Mexico. They are competing and killing us in our own country... but this is an issue of tax breaks and tariffs? Unions are killing the American car companies with high wages and benefits. That much has been obvious for 10 years and this year is just the proof. its not a lack of innovation or the culture its the $3,000 of healthcare and benefits in every car and paying a high school drop out $40 bucks an hour to watch a robot build a car.

How exactly are Democrats going to bring the manufacturing jobs back to America... and why would you. Our future is in intellectual property and engineering jobs. We can not and do not want to compete tp be the cheapest labor on the block.

[kiryan]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27311863/page/1/

“The wealthy pay a greater share of the tax burden than they did in 2000, and lower-income people paid less of it than they ever had,” she said. “The bottom 50 percent now pays less than 3 percent of all federal taxes, where the top 1 percent pays almost 40 percent.”

Yet Democrats want to tax the "rich" more so they can give more to the poor. Tax the people who get off their ass to make money and take risks and give it to the people who graduated HS and went to work at McDonalds. Why are they entitled to this money? Cuz they are US citizens.

I'd even skew the #s more by taking into account all the tax revenue generated by these "rich" people's businesses and add that to their shares.

So since we all believe that this is right sicne the rich are so rich... can we lower the punishment for criminals who target the wealthy? I mean they have a lot so stealing a car from them is not as severe of a crime as stealing one from a single mother of 3 right?

Look back at world history (Europe, Russia), many nations have run their nobility (read rich people) out of town just like we are trying to do and starvation ensued (agriculture was the only industry back then). Matter of fact, look at Africa. Ran all their "white oppressors" out of town cuz of apartheid, now they starve to death because they are too lazy to farm and their economy has been in the shitter for several years.

[Sarvis]

I mean they have a lot so stealing a car from them is not as severe of a crime as stealing one from a single mother of 3 right?

I would say so, yes. But don't let that knock you off your soap box.

[Ragorn]

Teacher salaries around here top out at around 120k.

Teacher salaries around here average 32k.

[Corth]

Its all relative. A starter home in an average neighborhood that would cost less than 150k in most of the country is about 450k on long island.

[Kifle]

Its all relative. A starter home in an average neighborhood that would cost less than 150k in most of the country is about 450k on long island.

The average home where I live is roughly 75-80k for a 3 bedroom. At 30k a year with a family of five, that doesn't really cut it. Maybe you guys just know shitty teachers who don't actually take their jobs seriously, but you can't discount the job because of the ones that do it for the wrong reasons. Some lawyers are greedy shitbags, some actually believe in what they do and don't try to rip people off. Some financial advisors look out for their clients rather than taking risks their clients can't really afford to take. The job isn't inherently flawed, the employees are. Teachers who do their jobs as they were designed, work 10-12 hr work days and deal with a lot of shit in the workplace -- moreso in the inner city. The cops in NY that make 100k/yr are also putting their lives at risk. High risk, high reward. It's the way it should be. Lawyers take minimal risk and make up to 4x as much as I've seen on average (tax lawyers... omg the risk!). Also, Corth, out of those 180 days you're proclaiming doesn't factor in the non-instructional days that districts and states require (parent teacher conferences, planning days, seminars, training, etc.).

[Ragorn]

I live in Fairfax County, VA. There's no such thing as a 150k home around here :) We start around 400-450k and go from there.

I looked it up... a first-year teacher makes 47-52k, and a teacher with 10 years experience makes 55-60k. More than I thought, but far from six figures.

[avak]

Listen, you supply and demand slaves...if teaching was such an awesome job there would be massive competition for the positions. And since there is not then I will suggest that it is a shitty job.

Ahhh, now all I need is an organized religion to explain moral issues in clear black and white terms...

[avak]

Mr. Obama has met challenge after challenge, growing as a leader and putting real flesh on his early promises of hope and change. He has shown a cool head and sound judgment. We believe he has the will and the ability to forge the broad political consensus that is essential to finding solutions to this nation’s problems.

In the same time, Senator John McCain of Arizona has retreated farther and farther to the fringe of American politics, running a campaign on partisan division, class warfare and even hints of racism. His policies and worldview are mired in the past. His choice of a running mate so evidently unfit for the office was a final act of opportunism and bad judgment that eclipsed the accomplishments of 26 years in Congress.

From the Time's endorsement of Obama. All relevant to the discussions we've been having for months now.

[Corth]

Listen, you supply and demand slaves...if teaching was such an awesome job there would be massive competition for the positions. And since there is not then I will suggest that it is a shitty job.

Ahhh, now all I need is an organized religion to explain moral issues in clear black and white terms...

Rofl. Try finding a teaching job on long island :)

Job market is like any other market. Except unlike the private sector, governments almost always overpay for their labor.

[Sarvis]

Job market is like any other market. Except unlike the private sector, governments almost always overpay for their labor.

No.

[kiryan]

Job market is like any other market. Except unlike the private sector, governments almost always overpay for their labor.

No.

When you figure in benefits and the level of skill...

yes

[Kifle]

Listen, you supply and demand slaves...if teaching was such an awesome job there would be massive competition for the positions. And since there is not then I will suggest that it is a shitty job.

Ahhh, now all I need is an organized religion to explain moral issues in clear black and white terms...

Rofl. Try finding a teaching job on long island :)

Job market is like any other market. Except unlike the private sector, governments almost always overpay for their labor.

The problem with teaching positions is the salary celling. You approach it quickly and you never quite make adaquate money for an average size family. You just can't support a family "well" on a teacher's salary. There must be a supplement. That is why the market is understaffed -- even with these great bonuses you think outweigh the salary discrepencies. In most fields, you can move up (change positions, salary cellings are much higher, etc.) -- this is not the case for teachers. Yes, you can move into administration, but the degree requirements become artificially raised because of the lack of jobs and the competition for those jobs. The money in education is in administration -- not teaching. If I were after cash and easy jobs, I'd be a tax lawyer or get my MBA. Talk about overpaid...

[Kifle]

Job market is like any other market. Except unlike the private sector, governments almost always overpay for their labor.

No.

When you figure in benefits and the level of skill...

yes

If we're talking your basic DMV worker or postal worker, sure. I'll agree there, lumping in teachers there is an oversight at best. There are much easier jobs in this country that get paid much, much more than teachers -- that have much, much less importance in the grand scheme of things.

[Adriorn Darkcloak]

I'm a high school teacher with a Master's degree. I live in Miami, Florida, which I think came in #2 in the list of Foreclosure Centers; i.e. really high jumps in home values, etc., so I won't even say what my house is worth. My wife doesn't work and stays home raising our kids. Though we struggle, don't take vacations, and don't eat out, we're doing okay. If we're talking about what we can do with the money we get paid, I do just fine. Should I be earning more than Corth? Yes. But if you want to help us teachers out, lower my taxes significantly so I can actually save more money, invest it or buy my wife some newer clothes. The amount I'm paying on property taxes, income taxes, and Socialist Security is the problem, not the amount I'm being paid.

This past week I received my bonus for high achievement in the Advanced course I teach. Of the $3,300 I was paid, I ended up with $1,900 after taxes. That's what's wrong.

So you know what you can do with ANY candidate who wants to raise my taxes in some way.


P.S. And to think part of the money I just lost on that check is going to things like ACORN...yeah, you go vote for Obama.

[Sarvis]

The amount I'm paying on property taxes, income taxes, and Socialist Security is the problem, not the amount I'm being paid.

Should it amuse or sadden me that with the stock market crashing and taking most peoples' retirement savings with it there are still people who don't get the need for social security?

This past week I received my bonus for high achievement in the Advanced course I teach. Of the $3,300 I was paid, I ended up with $1,900 after taxes. That's what's wrong.

You make more than me, so I'm really having a tough time drumming up some sympathy.

Maybe Corth was right...

So you know what you can do with ANY candidate who wants to raise my taxes in some way.

You don't make over $250k, so neither candidate is going to be raising your taxes. Obama will actually give you MORE of a tax break, which is what you were just asking for. The housing prices should be falling too, right? So your property taxes should be going way down shouldn't they?

P.S. And to think part of the money I just lost on that check is going to things like ACORN...yeah, you go vote for Obama.

Given a choice between ACORN and PNAC, I'll take ACORN. (Not that I have any idea what involvement McCain might have with PNAC...)

[avak]

I find it illustrative that some people here are trashing teachers and how much money they make. I think it was kiryan that was making the case that American workers are the most innovative and productive. Outside of some kind of xenophobic arrogance, what else explains this competitive advantage? Yes, that's right, eventually you get back to the major role that k-12 education plays in the success or failure of our country.

So, you just need your taxes lowered and everything will be fine? Americans pay the most money per capita for health care than any other country in the world. So, clearly we have the best services....but we don't. But here we are talking about our greedy, lazy, mostly worthless teachers, but I don't hear a word about how much money our doctors and insurance companies are making. Or for that matter, the estimated 20% of tax filers that make between $500,000 and a million that misstate income.

Talk about misplaced priorities.

[Corth]

Not trashing teachers. I'm married to one! Just saying that around where I live, Long Island, NY, they are paid too much. I'm not complaining either, it goes into my bank account! In general I find that government workers are overpaid (including benefits) relative to the private sector work force. No trashing at all, just opinion.

[Adriorn Darkcloak]

Should it amuse or sadden me that with the stock market crashing and taking most peoples' retirement savings with it there are still people who don't get the need for social security?

Forcing me to pay for something that will yield less money, in theory, by the time I retire than other options I have is unacceptable. When you realize that there is a cap on Socialist Security currently on the amount of money you can give and be given, this becomes redistribution of wealth. I'm paying a tax so that someone else's child can go to public school, while I'm paying for my own children not to. That's unacceptable. I don't mind paying the tax, mind you, once my children are no longer in school.

You make more than me, so I'm really having a tough time drumming up some sympathy.

You make less than $3,300 a year? I never said what I made. The worst part of your statement implies that you only have sympathy for those who makes less than you? Seriously?

You don't make over $250k, so neither candidate is going to be raising your taxes. Obama will actually give you MORE of a tax break, which is what you were just asking for. The housing prices should be falling too, right? So your property taxes should be going way down shouldn't they?

Just because I don't make that amount today, does not mean I won't make that amount tomorrow. When the upper income class starts losing more money, I'm going to end up feeling it in some way. Also, my property taxes went down less than $150 this year. That's useless.

[avak]

Not trashing teachers. I'm married to one! Just saying that around where I live, Long Island, NY, they are paid too much. I'm not complaining either, it goes into my bank account! In general I find that government workers are overpaid (including benefits) relative to the private sector work force. No trashing at all, just opinion.

Yes, that was a bit of "rhetorical flourish" on my part, but specifically in regards to teachers, what does it mean to be 'overpaid'?

If you are talking about the days off, that is more a product of a student-centric schedule, not the desires of the teachers (although I realize they love it).

Anyway, I would still argue that teachers, police, first responders, etc should be paid well to attract the most highly qualified candidates.

[Ragorn]

P.S. And to think part of the money I just lost on that check is going to things like ACORN...yeah, you go vote for Obama.

Maybe you shouldn't have voted for the guy who put us a trillion dollars in the hole chasing Saddam Hussein.

If the world were just and fair, you'd have your taxes raised to cover the cost of the war you supported. But alas, the best we can hope for is Barack Obama, who at least has a plan to fund his tax cuts.

[Corth]

Avak,

I formed my opinion with regard to teachers locally based upon the immense competition for these positions. Every teacher in NYC wants to get a job teaching on Long Island. Its crazy difficult to land a spot. If they paid 33% less they would still easily fill all their positions with very qualified individuals. But there are strong unions here... and high property taxes :)

[Sarvis]

Forcing me to pay for something that will yield less money, in theory, by the time I retire than other options I have is unacceptable.

Yield less money. Right. I know people at work who have lost over $100k in their retirement funds in the last few months.

When you realize that there is a cap on Socialist Security currently on the amount of money you can give and be given, this becomes redistribution of wealth. I'm paying a tax so that someone else's child can go to public school, while I'm paying for my own children not to. That's unacceptable. I don't mind paying the tax, mind you, once my children are no longer in school.

The question is how much you'd mind being around hordes of illiterate, uneducated yokels.

You make less than $3,300 a year? I never said what I made. The worst part of your statement implies that you only have sympathy for those who makes less than you? Seriously?

You said paycheck, which are all either bi-weekly or weekly. If yours is weekly, you're earning 6 figures... so then maybe your taxes will go up.

Just because I don't make that amount today, does not mean I won't make that amount tomorrow.

What? You have a good get rich quick scheme you're not sharing with us?

When the upper income class starts losing more money, I'm going to end up feeling it in some way.

ROFL! Sorry, but that's just laughable. Isn't trickle down economics pretty much completely debunked at this point? I really do love the theory that if the wealthy only had a <i>little bit more</i> money they'd somehow be more willing to invest in things that <i>make them more money</i>, but somehow I think they'd make those investments anyway. We even have a nice banking system and a stock market to help them out with business ideas they can't afford out of pocket!

Also, my property taxes went down less than $150 this year. That's useless.

Aren't property taxes based on the appraised value of the house? Have you had it re-appraised since the housing market tanked? Might help...

Not that I'm an expert on housing...

[Sarvis]

Not trashing teachers. I'm married to one! Just saying that around where I live, Long Island, NY, they are paid too much. I'm not complaining either, it goes into my bank account! In general I find that government workers are overpaid (including benefits) relative to the private sector work force. No trashing at all, just opinion.

Aren't benefits usually cheaper to provide than actual salary? Isn't that the whole idea, something valuable to the employee that costs the company less?

Government employees earn smaller salaries, but typically have better benefits... which are cheaper to provide. So I still don't think the government is overpaying it's workforce.

Except for tenured employees, which is the most retarded concept ever but you still see it even in private educational institutions for some reason. :(

[Corth]

There is an actual cost to benefits. Health care, defined benefit pension, etc. The employer (public or private) has to fund these benefits. You need to look at the actual cost of the benefits to determine the total compensation package. In the case of government workers, its usually the defined benefit pension plan that really puts the compensation over the top. Private sector employers basically don't offer that anymore as it is an extremely expensive obligation. They prefer to offer programs like 401k where the employee makes contributions, often matched to some extent by the employer, but the actual amount of the benefit is not guaranteed ultimately. Rather, it comes down to the performance of the investment in the 401k vehicle.

[Adriorn Darkcloak]

The question is how much you'd mind being around hordes of illiterate, uneducated yokels.

As opposed to how they are being graduated now Sarvis, really? Anyhow, good thing you mentioned this, for I was going to respond to Avak's posts about teacher compensation, but now I can do both at the same time.

I agree with Avak. Teachers are one of the vocations that are extremely underpaid, horribly underpaid, for the immensely important task they carry. But one of the reasons is lack of money, under-budgeted districts and programs statewide. The reason? Too many students, too many teachers, too many schools. The problem, in my eyes, is how the concept of public education has been implemented.

Every nation must have free education for all citizens...that cannot pay for their childrens' schooling. So, if you do not meet certain requirements or income levels, you need to pay for them to attend a school. The whole education system will be restructured; private non-religious schools will appear to attract parents that desire a certain education for their children. Taxes will drop as the amount of people working in the public system will dramatically drop. Good teachers will immediately be hired by the new schools, bad teachers will not. Unions will all but cease to have a stranglehold over the system, as will useless activist groups. Etc. Etc.

I'm simplifying it, of course, but hopefully the idea gets across. Competition across schools is for the best, to attract the best students will be awesome for education as a whole. No more "you must attend this school".

Good conversation piece if nothing else.

[kiryan]

The question is how much you'd mind being around hordes of illiterate, uneducated yokels.

I'd rather be around them than most so called "intelligent" people.

[Ragorn]

Every nation must have free education for all citizens...that cannot pay for their childrens' schooling. So, if you do not meet certain requirements or income levels, you need to pay for them to attend a school. The whole education system will be restructured; private non-religious schools will appear to attract parents that desire a certain education for their children. Taxes will drop as the amount of people working in the public system will dramatically drop. Good teachers will immediately be hired by the new schools, bad teachers will not. Unions will all but cease to have a stranglehold over the system, as will useless activist groups. Etc. Etc.

And yet, replace "education" with "health care," and people like you start to cry about socialism.

[Ragorn]

How about if I lose I'll agree to change my title to anything you want for the entire month of November, so long as it isn't disproved by the immortals.

John McCain to win 2008 US Presidential Election
Last Price: 12.6 0.2

Should I start a poll for "What should Corth change his title to?"

[Sarvis]

The question is how much you'd mind being around hordes of illiterate, uneducated yokels.

I'd rather be around them than most so called "intelligent" people.

Then move to a third world country? You'll find plenty of illiterate people to bask in your glory. Plus if you take a few hundred dollars you can probably live like a king!

[avak]

How about if I lose I'll agree to change my title to anything you want for the entire month of November, so long as it isn't disproved by the immortals.

John McCain to win 2008 US Presidential Election
Last Price: 12.6 0.2

Should I start a poll for "What should Corth change his title to?"

Given the actual line, I would bet McCain at this point. McCain's odds are a lot better than Intrade is suggesting. I don't think it is way off, but from a gambling perspective there is a chance to cash in.

[avak]

In other news, Al Qaeda supposedly endorses McCain. That's just beyond funny...if it weren't so tragic.

[kiryan]

The question is how much you'd mind being around hordes of illiterate, uneducated yokels.

I'd rather be around them than most so called "intelligent" people.

Then move to a third world country? You'll find plenty of illiterate people to bask in your glory. Plus if you take a few hundred dollars you can probably live like a king!

How about you and your socialist friends move to Canada instead?

[Sarvis]

The question is how much you'd mind being around hordes of illiterate, uneducated yokels.

I'd rather be around them than most so called "intelligent" people.

Then move to a third world country? You'll find plenty of illiterate people to bask in your glory. Plus if you take a few hundred dollars you can probably live like a king!

How about you and your socialist friends move to Canada instead?

I'm not the one complaining about being around educated people. You don't like who you're surrounded by, maybe you should change locales. There are plenty of places in there world where not everyone is educated.

Granted, they are all shitholes... but then maybe that's a clue your reasoning is a little off.

[Corth]

How about if I lose I'll agree to change my title to anything you want for the entire month of November, so long as it isn't disproved by the immortals.

John McCain to win 2008 US Presidential Election
Last Price: 12.6 0.2

Should I start a poll for "What should Corth change his title to?"

Rofl, yeah you might want to do that. Thats my plan exactly for you. Still have a few days, we'll see!

Just hoping I don't lose the stupid intrade bet and then McCain pulls off a surprise win. That would suck (except for the part about not having my wealth redistributed)!

[Adriorn Darkcloak]

And yet, replace "education" with "health care," and people like you start to cry about socialism.

Nice way to change topics Ragorn, and not address the topic at hand at all. Either way, are you saying you would only want guaranteed health care for people under the poverty line? There's a far stretch between that and universal health care, right? Yeah.

[kiryan]

The question is how much you'd mind being around hordes of illiterate, uneducated yokels.

I'd rather be around them than most so called "intelligent" people.

Then move to a third world country? You'll find plenty of illiterate people to bask in your glory. Plus if you take a few hundred dollars you can probably live like a king!

How about you and your socialist friends move to Canada instead?

I'm not the one complaining about being around educated people. You don't like who you're surrounded by, maybe you should change locales. There are plenty of places in there world where not everyone is educated.

Granted, they are all shitholes... but then maybe that's a clue your reasoning is a little off.

LOL. ok first, uneducated != uncivlized. Sometimes I think that I might've liked being Amish or some of the more conservative mennonites. I like the idea of an egalitarian society, I just don't want the government trying to create it and forcing it on me.

I did change locales, I went from Oregon to California back to Oregon and now I'm headed for Montana hoping to find more of the kind of people I prefer. Oregon actually isn't too bad if the damn liberals would stop moving to Portland from California and outvoting the rest of the state. I was even thinking about becoming a doctor so that I have a plan for moving overseas if things get too bad in the next 20 years. and yes, I do have a tin foil hat.

[Sarvis]

LOL. ok first, uneducated != uncivlized.

Where did I say uncivilized?

Sometimes I think that I might've liked being Amish or some of the more conservative mennonites. I like the idea of an egalitarian society, I just don't want the government trying to create it and forcing it on me.

You realize that the church enforces the lifestyle for the Amish, right? Or is religious government superior to secular?

I did change locales, I went from Oregon to California back to Oregon and now I'm headed for Montana hoping to find more of the kind of people I prefer. Oregon actually isn't too bad if the damn liberals would stop moving to Portland from California and outvoting the rest of the state. I was even thinking about becoming a doctor so that I have a plan for moving overseas if things get too bad in the next 20 years. and yes, I do have a tin foil hat.

If the entire population of a state bothers you, it's probably not them.

[Corth]

Gallup poll of likely voters shows things tightening up. Hoping for an intrade bounce!

It wasn't until this stupid bet that I actually started to give a shit about the election. That might ultimately be McCain's downfall. Obama supporters seem a lot more excited about him than McCain supporters are of their guy.