Are teachers underpaid or not?

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kiryan
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Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:26 pm

Are teachers underpaid or not?

We are all taught that teachers are way underpaid. But is it true? What skill is it that teachers have that is so grossly underpaid or in such high demand? What "job" do they do that is so important that we have to pay a premium to make sure its done right? Do they actually succeed in their jobs to justify being paid more?

Is their compensation that poor? I've worked at quite a few different private companies. I have yet to see one company who offers a benefit plan anywhere close to as good as a teacher. Besides their pension being guaranteed from losses (the state may have lost money in their retirement plans, but none of the employees have lost any benefits), their healthcare is also top notch and usually costs them nothing out of their paycheck. Additionally, the benefits get better and better every few years during contract negotiations because usually they get benefit increases rather than wage increases. Most of you will not retire anywhere close to as well as your average "underpaid" teacher. Lets not even talk about # of days worked per year.

Looking further you have to see that teachers are paid on a collective scale rather than as individuals. While an individual teacher may be grossly underpaid, they are making up for the overpaid teachers. If we could get to a system where teachers wages were determined in a market scenario, then good teachers could get paid better and bad teachers would be paid less. The fact that teachers fight vigorously against any kind of performance metric based compensation should be a message in and of itself.

Its almost as bad as the automakers and their unions except you don't get paid $30 an hour + great benefits to do a $15 an hour job.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Botef » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:59 pm

Looking further you have to see that teachers are paid on a collective scale rather than as individuals. While an individual teacher may be grossly underpaid, they are making up for the overpaid teachers. If we could get to a system where teachers wages were determined in a market scenario, then good teachers could get paid better and bad teachers would be paid less. The fact that teachers fight vigorously against any kind of performance metric based compensation should be a message in and of itself.


My nephew recently moved from the inner city to the hills and the funding and educational opportunities between the two schools, which are in the same district, is just astonishing. He went from a school with no field trips, no extra programs, no music programs and huge classrooms to a school with all of the above and nearly half the class size. His grades have improved dramatically. Is that purely from the quality of the teaching? He had good teachers, they worked hard but the lack of funding - not their pay - would be the stake in their performance ratings. I think a performance based system of pay would ultimately leave children in the dust because of their demographics, creating incentive for 'good' teachers to teach in 'good' neighborhoods to 'good' children in order to maximize their pay. I could only see a system like that working in an environment where schools had equal opportunities for funding or where things like class room size were taken into account. A teacher with 15 students is practically guaranteed to 'perform' better than one teaching 35, does that mean they deserve more money or consequently the other teacher less? I can totally see why teachers, especially inner city teachers, would be so against a performance based system of compensation.

That aside I agree that there needs to be accountability for teacher performance.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sarvis » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:22 pm

I'm still not convinced teachers are overpaid in public schools. Don't the best teachers go to private schools? Why would they do that if public school compensation was better?
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Corth » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:48 pm

I think some are paid just right and some are overpaid.

Lets put it this way. None are underpaid. Why? Because the school district wouldn't be able to fill the position if they weren't offering enough money. The fact that someone voluntarily applied for the position and voluntarily took the job and continues to work there indicates to me that they are being paid sufficiently at minimum.

Some are overpaid. As I mentioned in another thread, my wife is a 7th grade math teacher at a district on long island. There is intense competition for the jobs there, as they pay perhaps 30-40% more than neighboring school districts in NYC. Even if they paid the same as NYC they would have no problem filling those positions with qualified individuals, as the work environment is so much better in the suburbs. My wife used to teach at a NYC school, and she went from 35 kids in a class down to about 17 on Long Island. She works very hard, and often comes out of pocket on her own for materials, or stays late to help kids when she isn't required to. Nonetheless, she is overpaid. Not complaining at all.

Would absolutely love to see a situation where a voucher system were implemented. First it would mean that salaries would be set by the market, and a lot of the top heavy administration would be culled, which would mean overall saving of money. Second, and more importantly, it would be better for the students. Since the schools would be competing for the students, presumably they would compete on the basis of curriculum as well as price. A kid who has more of a science/math background could attend a school that would be more engaging on that level, whereas a kid with more of a verbal bent could goto a likewise appropriate school. Sarvis could send his kids to school that concentrates on green and progressive causes, I could send my kid to a school where he would get a solid foundation in western civilization, civics, philosophy, and economics.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sarvis » Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:23 pm

Corth wrote:I think some are paid just right and some are overpaid.

Lets put it this way. None are underpaid. Why? Because the school district wouldn't be able to fill the position if they weren't offering enough money. The fact that someone voluntarily applied for the position and voluntarily took the job and continues to work there indicates to me that they are being paid sufficiently at minimum.


Your logic astounds me. To no end.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:29 pm

Sarvis wrote:I'm still not convinced teachers are overpaid in public schools. Don't the best teachers go to private schools? Why would they do that if public school compensation was better?


We go to private schools for myriad of reasons:

#1 - And really no competition: Discipline. We have no issues of discipline the likes of which public schools see. Almost every single teacher we have that has taught for years in the public schools say this is their main reason. In my nine years teaching, I have yet seen a single problem of discipline in my classroom. My wife, however, has other stories...

#2 - A rigorous curriculum, without the FLUFF added to the public school curriculum.

#3 - We don't have bullshit classes for lazy people. You fail a course, even after the chance of summer school, you're out.

There's so many other reasons, but I'm tired and those are some that came off the top of my head.

People come to teach in private schools Sarvis so that they don't have to deal with the students and parents in public schools. While you ALWAYS find good kids and parents in public schools, they are the small minority nowadays according to teachers we get that come from public schools. When you have a serious conduct disorder case in your classroom and there is nothing that can be done to eliminate him from the class, you feel completely powerless to teach. Etc. Etc.

Teaching in private school means a lower salary, and almost no benefits compared to public schools. We have no retirement plan. We have no pension plan. Zilch. But I go to school knowing I'll have a good day, and the vast majority of the students are there to learn to some degree.

Maybe this is different in smaller cities, maybe it's the same. I don't know. I just know down here, private schools > public schools in every possible way. Many members of the school board have their kids in private schools because they know they'll be getting a better education.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Corth » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:21 pm

I have to echo what Adriorn says. Private schools around here pay significantly less than the public schools. Some teachers prefer it for quality of life / professional reasons.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sarvis » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:37 am

It sounds like they aren't being paid enough to put up with public school, then.

So underpaid it is. :P
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Pril » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:08 am

Basically here's the issue.

Public school teachers in montgomery county MD at least are required to have a masters degree. An entry lvl teacher gets $45,000 or so. So the question is Kiryan:

Should a person with a masters degree be paid so little to do the job of educator and parent. Because in the public school system that's what you are. I'll give you an example:

My fiancee works for as a 6th grade science teacher. Over 50% of her students come to her with a 3rd grade or below reading level. Over 70% of them have never have science before because the state tests only teach math and english so that's all a lot of students are taught in elementary school.

She also has to deal with parents who are in prison or absent or just don't give a crap about their child's education. So yes I would say they are underpaid. I'm not sure on the exact number but i think that something like 85% of the teachers in my county can't afford to live in this county and those that can are married to non teachers.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Corth » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:13 am

Pril,

If 45k isn't enough then why work there?

Answer: Because it is enough. Otherwise, they wouldn't work there.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Pril » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:26 am

Because they want to help people and they want to be teachers, and as this is one of the better paid counties in the US. Your logic is just flawed. Because if they all left and got jobs that paid them better the children of our country would me more screwed than they currently are.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sarvis » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:57 am

Corth wrote:Pril,

If 45k isn't enough then why work there?

Answer: Because it is enough. Otherwise, they wouldn't work there.



Because being unemployed and starving is a worse option than being underpaid, maybe? I spent a couple years working at less than half the average salary for my profession because it was the only job I could get. The fact that so many good teachers are leaving public schools for private school jobs shows they are not getting enough compensation for waht they have to deal with at those jobs.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Corth » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:26 am

If you were getting paid less than half of the 'average' pay for your profession, that is exactly what your time was worth.

Sorry, there is no such thing as anyone ever being underpaid. There is no slavery in this country. No indentured servitude. You either voluntarily work for a sum of money, or you refuse to. If your taking less pay than you could earn elsehwere because its something you really want to do, well thats your own decision. There is a job market, and if employers couldn't fulfill positions they would raise the salary offers.

There is, however, such thing as people being overpaid. Not in the private employment context. In the public context. Where government, which has no profit motive, pays more than what a private employer would have otherwise paid, because govenrment often has no real incentive to save money. In fact, often the incentives are quite the opposite.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Corth » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:33 am

Pril wrote:Because they want to help people and they want to be teachers, and as this is one of the better paid counties in the US. Your logic is just flawed. Because if they all left and got jobs that paid them better the children of our country would me more screwed than they currently are.


If they weren't able to fill their teaching positions they would increase salaries. Thats how the job market works.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby avak » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:37 am

Corth wrote:If you were getting paid less than half of the 'average' pay for your profession, that is exactly what your time was worth.

Sorry, there is no such thing as anyone ever being underpaid. There is no slavery in this country. No indentured servitude. You either voluntarily work for a sum of money, or you refuse to. If your taking less pay because its something you really want to do, well thats your own decision. There is a job market, and if employers couldn't fulfill positions they would raise the salary offers.


Just curious how a fact like the following enters in to your above statement:

In 2005, women's median annual earnings were only $.77 for every $1.00 earned by men. For women of color, the gap is even worse – only $.71 for African American women and $.58 for Latinas.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby avak » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:40 am

Corth wrote:
Pril wrote:Because they want to help people and they want to be teachers, and as this is one of the better paid counties in the US. Your logic is just flawed. Because if they all left and got jobs that paid them better the children of our country would me more screwed than they currently are.


If they weren't able to fill their teaching positions they would increase salaries. Thats how the job market works.


And so if it is true that teachers are overpaid then we should see no shortage of teachers now or in the near future. Therefore, if we see a shortage of teachers we can conclude that teachers are underpaid. Fair?
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Ragorn » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:43 am

Corth wrote:If you were getting paid less than half of the 'average' pay for your profession, that is exactly what your time was worth.

I completely understand your opinion that market value is the characteristic which defines proper compensation.

I completely understand it.

That said, I disagree. I believe that teaching, like many other professions, fails to reward superior achievement. Let me explain.

If you're an assembly worker, the quality of your work only vaguely impacts the quality of the product you produce. If your job is to twist a widget every 8 seconds, then only by gross negligence or incompetence does a low standard of performance on your part have any effect on the finished widget at the end of the line. There is very little value in hiring a great widget twister over a mediocre one. I think that for widget twisters, market wage is a good reflection of how much value the worker brings to the job.

Teaching is an occupation where high skill and competence pay huge rewards. A mediocre teacher produces students who can deliver passing test scores; an excellent teacher changes lives and increases the potential of the students she teaches. There is a very large value delta between "functional" and "superior" in the teaching field. However, there is no salary compensation awarded for superior teaching skill... a functional teacher and an excellent teacher with similar levels of experience will be paid the same. That is why I believe that highly skilled teachers are underpaid... not because of market forces, but because the market fails to distinguish quality.

The same could be said about a lot of professions.

Also, on an unrelated side note, I think that teachers fundamentally provide far more value to our society than their salary would indicate. That's a bit harder to quantify, and I don't really have an economic response if asked why I believe that a teacher's value exceeds the market wage for her service.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Corth » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:47 am

I agree Ragorn that teacher salary is not sufficiently based upon performance. Its a government thing. Very difficult to fire public employees for poor performance, or even reward some over others for good performance. This is an issue that effects almost all facets of public employment. DMV type beaurocrats are a great example.

A voucher system, btw, in the education context, would address that issue.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:48 am

avak wrote:Therefore, if we see a shortage of teachers we can conclude that teachers are underpaid. Fair?


There is a shortage of teachers.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:52 am

Corth wrote:A voucher system, btw, in the education context, would address that issue.


A voucher system would destroy the majority of corruption and bullshit in education. They are opposed because they would signal the end of power to tenured administrators who don't do anything.

I read an awesome story recently about how an ex-marine in Cincinnati (I think), in his first year as a teacher in a ghetto school was awarded the Teacher of the Year award for the district (State?) because of the immense improvements and job he had done. That same year, budget cuts were needed, and DUE TO UNION RULES, administrators may only fire the newest employees in such a case, not the worst. So he got fired. Got a job that same month with another public school in an upper class neighborhood...
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Corth » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:55 am

avak wrote:
Corth wrote:
Pril wrote:Because they want to help people and they want to be teachers, and as this is one of the better paid counties in the US. Your logic is just flawed. Because if they all left and got jobs that paid them better the children of our country would me more screwed than they currently are.


If they weren't able to fill their teaching positions they would increase salaries. Thats how the job market works.


And so if it is true that teachers are overpaid then we should see no shortage of teachers now or in the near future. Therefore, if we see a shortage of teachers we can conclude that teachers are underpaid. Fair?


I missed this before Avak. I think its a fair statement. I would make a technical disagreement: someone who isn't working isn't being underpaid. You can't say somebody is being underpaid if the position is vacant. Rather, I would conclude that if we see a shortage of teachers, the school district is not offering sufficient compensation and needs to increase salaries.

But the gist of your statement is correct.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sarvis » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:14 am

Corth wrote:If you were getting paid less than half of the 'average' pay for your profession, that is exactly what your time was worth.

Sorry, there is no such thing as anyone ever being underpaid. There is no slavery in this country. No indentured servitude. You either voluntarily work for a sum of money, or you refuse to. If your taking less pay than you could earn elsehwere because its something you really want to do, well thats your own decision. There is a job market, and if employers couldn't fulfill positions they would raise the salary offers.

There is, however, such thing as people being overpaid. Not in the private employment context. In the public context. Where government, which has no profit motive, pays more than what a private employer would have otherwise paid, because govenrment often has no real incentive to save money. In fact, often the incentives are quite the opposite.



So the CEOs who ran all the banks into the ground weren't overpaid? The CEOs who lose millions for their companies in ANY industry aren't overpaid, even when they receive multi-million dollar severence packages for having done so?

Corth, your naivete is truly surprising. Actually, no... it isn't. Your ideology blinds you, it's that simple. People are not merely worth what they MUST accept to survive. If the choice is between 0 and $1/hr there is NO ONE who would not accept $1/hr. That does not mean they are being fairly compensated. It just means they had no viable alternative.

I didn't spend two years at my current company earning so little because I wanted to, or because the work was satisfying. I did so because the job market was such that I had trouble finding an alternative. The fact that my old boss nearly doubled my salary to keep me, once I had found an alternative, speaks to that as well. The fact that the new management then gave me a 25% raise speaks to it as well. To top that off, my manager even told me directly that I was worth more if I had asked for it.

I'm still underpaid, even in the eyes of the guy signing the checks.

So yes, people can be underpaid.

Oh, and by the way... there ARE slavery and indentured servitude in this country. Not legally, of course... but that just makes it worse and harder to deal with. I'm sure if you drove down the right street late enough at night you'd see a few girls in such a position.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Corth » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:30 am

No Sarvis. You are getting paid exactly what your time is worth. If you think your time is worth more elsewhere then you should look for another job. In fact, you would probably be stupid not to.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Pril » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:36 am

Corth,

Also account for the fact that in depending on the state/county the rules for how many kids you can have in a class is different as well. As an example: Montgomery County, MD (I believe I'll check with Amanda tomorrow) the acceptable ration of students to teachers is 25 to 1. Amanda has no classes anywhere close to that she has an average of 30-35 students in every class. Also thanks to EVERY child left behind these students are all basically mixed from gifted kids to undereducated kids. So if they Salary a teacher receives is 45,000 for teaching 25 students then teaching 35 students in a class the salary should be raised to 63,000 right right?

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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Corth » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:46 am

Pril,

There are people that need to mop up cumshots off the floor of x-rated theatres for a living. Pretty nasty job. They are paid what they're time is worth. Someone has to do it, and apparently the money is worth it.

I don't care if a teacher has 20 students or 100 students. If they voluntarily accepted the job, they are not being underpaid. If they believe their time is worth more, they should find work elsewhere.

Job market is like any other market. There is a certain supply of qualified applicants, and a certain number of positions to be filled. The salary that is paid is based upon the supply/demand equation and also in large part based upon alternative employment opportunities in that particular geographical area.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sarvis » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:32 pm

Do you really think those cum moppers AREN'T looking for another job? If they are, they consider themselves underpaid and are only doing it because another option hasn't come up yet.

Oddly enough, a lot of teachers seem to be seeking out private school jobs which by Adriorn's account are FAR EASIER jobs. Given that little tidbit, it seems as though teachers are NOT satisfied with the pay they are receiving in public schools. Therefore they are being underpaid. They are not staying happily at their jobs with the money they are earning there.

Oh, and I think I'l take my manager's opinion over yours when determining if I'm being paid what I'm worth or not. He says I'm not. Your free market idealism is once again wrong.


EDIT: See, your problem is once again attempting to use simple formulae to describe complex behavior. Just like looking at oil prices in a supply & demand model, which is a simplification of actual economic theories, you're ignoring a ton of factors that are at play here. First and foremost is that people are human. They are not calculators, or robots or computers that must follow some logic.

There is no:

Code: Select all

if(salary.ToLow())
    SwitchJob();


embedded in our brains. There's a lot of complexity there, things like "if I switch jobs I might lose the next one and be unable to feed my family." Or like "Dammit I'm a great ____ but I get so nervous during interviews... I'll be stuck in this dead end job forever."

Getting a new job because you're underpaid is not as easy as seeking out the lowest gas price. And even that is controlled by the area, the weather, and a myriad of other factors.


Oh, and no comment on CEOs being overpaid? Are we back to you glossing over anything you don't like to hear so you can repeat yourself a few more times?

Here, I'll help you out:

"Everyone agreed to that salary, so they must be worth it!"

Because yeah, that's the only possible factor.
Last edited by Sarvis on Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Pril » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:10 pm

Corth,

Please don't confuse someone mopping up cum off the floor of an x-rated movie set so that they can get their next fix of cocaine or heroine or whatever or even to just stay off the streets with highly qualified professionals who are being screwed because the government can't honor their contract and keep class sizes to the agreed limit.

Oh and also the REASON the classes are overfilled is because people are leaving the profession because they are UNDERPAID and there are not enough teachers any more. Your supply and demand model doesn't fit here sorry man.

When teachers leave instead of raising salaries to make the job more inviting to people and get new teachers they just stuff the extra students into the classes of the already over worked teachers.

Pril

PS oh and corth last I checked they don't require a masters degree to mop cum off an x-rated movie set.
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Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

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Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Pril » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:28 pm

Corth,

Also: "20% of teachers quit after their first year, and about 50% by their fifth year" that's not really from a reliable source but the actual statistics that I don't have time to find at the moment are around those numbers. So yes they are under paid and they are leaving the profession. See my above post as to what is happening to the students.
The best of WTF statments of '06

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Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:37 pm

From what I gather, much of Pril's arguments are developed from observations within one of the richest counties in the United States that also is still growing in terms of employment, development, and population. This county also has an unusually high number of private schools and academies with an unusually high number of students attending.

The median household income in this county is nearly twice that of the median household income in the country.

I'm not so sure this is a good representation of what is happening in the country at large.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Pril » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:39 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:From what I gather, much of Pril's arguments are developed from observations within one of the richest counties in the United States that also is still growing in terms of employment, development, and population. This county also has an unusually high number of private schools and academies with an unusually high number of students attending.

The median household income in this county is nearly twice that of the median household income in the country.

I'm not so sure this is a good representation of what is happening in the country at large.


Yes one of the richest counties in the country where the teachers are STILL underpaid.
The best of WTF statments of '06

--------------------------------------------------------

Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:42 pm

Pril wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:From what I gather, much of Pril's arguments are developed from observations within one of the richest counties in the United States that also is still growing in terms of employment, development, and population. This county also has an unusually high number of private schools and academies with an unusually high number of students attending.

The median household income in this county is nearly twice that of the median household income in the country.

I'm not so sure this is a good representation of what is happening in the country at large.


Yes one of the richest counties in the country where the teachers are STILL underpaid.


Except the average teacher's salary is in line with the median household income in the United States per income generator.
Last edited by teflor the ranger on Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Pril » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:43 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:
Pril wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:From what I gather, much of Pril's arguments are developed from observations within one of the richest counties in the United States that also is still growing in terms of employment, development, and population. This county also has an unusually high number of private schools and academies with an unusually high number of students attending.

The median household income in this county is nearly twice that of the median household income in the country.

I'm not so sure this is a good representation of what is happening in the country at large.


Yes one of the richest counties in the country where the teachers are STILL underpaid.


Except the average teacher's salary is in line with the median household income in the United States per income generator.


Want to post a source?
The best of WTF statments of '06

--------------------------------------------------------

Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:52 pm

Pril wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Pril wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:From what I gather, much of Pril's arguments are developed from observations within one of the richest counties in the United States that also is still growing in terms of employment, development, and population. This county also has an unusually high number of private schools and academies with an unusually high number of students attending.

The median household income in this county is nearly twice that of the median household income in the country.

I'm not so sure this is a good representation of what is happening in the country at large.


Yes one of the richest counties in the country where the teachers are STILL underpaid.


Except the average teacher's salary is in line with the median household income in the United States per income generator.


Want to post a source?


Like I say to everyone, this is easy enough to check yourself. This is a part of my 'look it up yourself' campaign, where I'm sure if people started looking things up, they wouldn't present poor arguments as often.
Last edited by teflor the ranger on Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:03 pm

Also, the ratio of male to female teachers is 1 to 3, the median income for all males was 45k, and the median income for all females was 35k last year. (These medians do not include 0 income earners, if I'm reading the census correctly.)

(45k*1 + 35k*3)/4 = 37.5k

With the median salaries of teachers from across the country hitting as much as 40.9k for the median middle school teacher (and very close for other types of teachers), it would seem that the average teacher makes a little more money than the average American worker.

In fact, the women in particular appear to be the real winners, far out-earning their peers working in other sectors.

(added to my previous post after you responded)
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Corth » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:11 pm

Classroom sizes aren't high because teachers are underpaid. They are high in some places because the school districts there decided not to hire more teachers or build more schools in order to save money. There is no teacher shortage. If a district cannot fill a slot, it will raise the salary and it will find a qualified applicant. There are plenty of qualified teachers who have left the profession to earn more money elsewhere, and would return if the pay was better. Potentially there is a huge surplus of teachers. Teacher salaries are generally what you would expect are necessary to meet existing demand for teachers.

Put it this way.. show me a district that can't find enough teachers to educate their kids. Perhaps there are one or two, and if so, they need to get off their ass and offer more money. Chances are, though, that this has already happened in such cases.
Last edited by Corth on Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:13 pm

Sarvis wrote:Oddly enough, a lot of teachers seem to be seeking out private school jobs which by Adriorn's account are FAR EASIER jobs.


Seriously? It's like you are doing everything possible to find something to argue about. How can having a more rigorous curriculum mean they are easier jobs? How can having 30 kids in each class versus the 25 in public school make it easier? I have to grade 150 to 180 papers depending on if I teach 5 or 6 courses, one of them an AP course.

We don't have the BULLSHIT public schools have forced on themselves. The percentage of teacher turnout Pril quoted is correct, for public schools. Easier is not the same thing as safer.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Corth » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:17 pm

Pril,

Certainly jizz-moppers and teachers have vastly different responsibilities (hopefully). As a matter of illustrating how the job market works, though, the two are identical. The world requires a certain amount of jizz moppers and a certain amount of teachers. If they're respective employers are not offering sufficient money, then those positions will go unfilled. To the extent that the positions ARE indeed filled, it demonstrates that the people performing those functions are NOT underpaid, as they voluntarily applied for the position, and continue to work there without any coercion. Nobody (legally) puts a gun to someone's head and order him to mop up jizz, or for that matter, teach a class. Someone wants to mop the jizz or teach the class, at the salary being offered, because its better than any other option at that point in time.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Pril » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:21 pm

Corth wrote:There are plenty of qualified teachers who have left the profession to earn more money elsewhere, and would return if the pay was better.


Corth wrote:Lets put it this way. None are underpaid. Why? Because the school district wouldn't be able to fill the position if they weren't offering enough money. The fact that someone voluntarily applied for the position and voluntarily took the job and continues to work there indicates to me that they are being paid sufficiently at minimum.



Corth are you even reading what you write? According to you if they are "underpaid" they should switch jobs. Then you write that many have "switched jobs and would come back if pay was better" yes yer absolutely right. Hence they are UNDERPAID and are not returning and if you PAID THEM MORE (as per your argument) they would return.
The best of WTF statments of '06

--------------------------------------------------------

Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Pril » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:22 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:
Pril wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Pril wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:From what I gather, much of Pril's arguments are developed from observations within one of the richest counties in the United States that also is still growing in terms of employment, development, and population. This county also has an unusually high number of private schools and academies with an unusually high number of students attending.

The median household income in this county is nearly twice that of the median household income in the country.

I'm not so sure this is a good representation of what is happening in the country at large.


Yes one of the richest counties in the country where the teachers are STILL underpaid.


Except the average teacher's salary is in line with the median household income in the United States per income generator.


Want to post a source?


Like I say to everyone, this is easy enough to check yourself. This is a part of my 'look it up yourself' campaign, where I'm sure if people started looking things up, they wouldn't present poor arguments as often.


The average person is 20 feet tall. This is a true fact. Find the source yourself!

*peer* Really Teflor?
The best of WTF statments of '06

--------------------------------------------------------

Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:23 pm

Pril,

Word has it, that half of teachers are paid less than the median.

Tef
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:24 pm

Pril wrote:The average person is 20 feet tall. This is a true fact. Find the source yourself!

*peer* Really Teflor?


Except my facts are facts. Yeah really. Don't be a jackass.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Pril » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:24 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:Pril,

Word has it, that half of teachers are paid less than the median.

Tef



Wow Tef, never thought you of all people would nef up on my ignore list for posting your lame ass shit.
The best of WTF statments of '06

--------------------------------------------------------

Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:27 pm

I offered to show you the sources on my screen. If you can't put in the effort to get up, walk over, and look at it, then you might as well not respond to anything I write anyway.

Not worth my time.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Ironically, you haven't posted any sources.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Pril » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:31 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:Ironically, you haven't posted any sources.


Nor have i stated any my statistics as fact. Every time I've posted something I've said that this is not a reliable source or that it is approximate.

Here's a fact for you: Recent surveys show that 100% of posts in this thread are unfounded.

Also please let Corth Adriorn Kiryan and myself have our argument without dragging this thread through the mud.
The best of WTF statments of '06

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Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:32 pm

Pril wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:Ironically, you haven't posted any sources.


Nor have i stated any my statistics as fact. Every time I've posted something I've said that this is not a reliable source or that it is approximate.

Here's a fact for you: Recent surveys show that 100% of posts in this thread are unfounded.

Also please let Corth Adriorn Kiryan and myself have our argument without dragging this thread through the mud.


So you've just been blasting your opinion without any facts? I seem to recall that you started draggin this through the mud, not me.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Pril » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:35 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:Like I say to everyone, this is easy enough to check yourself. This is a part of my 'look it up yourself' campaign, where I'm sure if people started looking things up, they wouldn't present poor arguments as often.


Calling my arguments poor I would say you started it. Anyways I'm done replying to your crap. And no it's not my opinion I just didn't look up exact numbers and said that.
The best of WTF statments of '06

--------------------------------------------------------

Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Corth » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:36 pm

Pril wrote:
Corth wrote:There are plenty of qualified teachers who have left the profession to earn more money elsewhere, and would return if the pay was better.


Corth wrote:Lets put it this way. None are underpaid. Why? Because the school district wouldn't be able to fill the position if they weren't offering enough money. The fact that someone voluntarily applied for the position and voluntarily took the job and continues to work there indicates to me that they are being paid sufficiently at minimum.



Corth are you even reading what you write? According to you if they are "underpaid" they should switch jobs. Then you write that many have "switched jobs and would come back if pay was better" yes yer absolutely right. Hence they are UNDERPAID and are not returning and if you PAID THEM MORE (as per your argument) they would return.


I did not say if they are underpaid they should switch jobs. I said that if they can make more money elsewhere, then all things being equal they should take another job. For instance, if they can be a human resources manager and make more money, and they don't have any preference over the two positions, then they should go take the human resources job.

If there were not enough teachers to fill all necessary positions, then salaries would increase, and some of those human resource managers might decide they prefer to be teachers. That is why there is no true teacher shortage. Anyone who says there is a teacher shortage is parroting propaganda. Just about every necessary teaching position is filled, and to the extent that any aren't, its not because there is a shortage but rather because the district is not offering enough money.

Teachers who agree to work for X dollars per year, are not underpaid, as they AGREED to work for X dollars per year instead of doing something else.
Last edited by Corth on Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:38 pm

Pril wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:Like I say to everyone, this is easy enough to check yourself. This is a part of my 'look it up yourself' campaign, where I'm sure if people started looking things up, they wouldn't present poor arguments as often.


Calling my arguments poor I would say you started it. Anyways I'm done replying to your crap. And no it's not my opinion I just didn't look up exact numbers and said that.


That's a stretch and you know it, especially as the statement was for 'people' and that they should look things up so they wouldn't present poor arguments. The only 'crap' I've presented is stuff you have no argument against.

Fact: Teachers make more than the median income.
Fact: Female teachers are particularly successful compared to females in other sectors.

Just because you have no response doesn't mean you can keep dragging people through the mud.
Last edited by teflor the ranger on Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sarvis » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:41 pm

Corth wrote:Classroom sizes aren't high because teachers are underpaid. They are high in some places because the school districts there decided not to hire more teachers or build more schools in order to save money. There is no teacher shortage. If a district cannot fill a slot, it will raise the salary and it will find a qualified applicant. There are plenty of qualified teachers who have left the profession to earn more money elsewhere, and would return if the pay was better. <b>Potentially</b> there is a huge surplus of teachers. Teacher salaries are generally what you would expect are necessary to meet existing demand for teachers.

Put it this way.. show me a district that can't find enough teachers to educate their kids. Perhaps there are one or two, and if so, they need to get off their ass and offer more money. Chances are, though, that this has already happened in such cases.


Potentially there is a surplus? Dude, is something wrong? It's like you're not even trying or something. Potentially there's a huge surplus of oil too, but OPEC is reducing production aren't they? See how that works? Talking about what is potentially there is worthless, less than meaningless.

As for districts that don't have enough teachers... umm, you live in NYC right? How are your inner city schools doing? You know, the poor neighborhoods. The ones where everyone was born too lazy to work, so their kids have to go to the public school?

I'm betting they aren't known for absurdly large class sizes because of the sheer number of teachers clamoring to work there.


<b>Adriorn</b> Not trying to "find things to argue about" but you DID make it sound a lot easier. So you have a few more papers to grade.. but you can discipline your students properly, have to deal with fewer bad students and overall teach more effectively. For some reason, that sounds far easier to me even if you have a higher amount of work to do.

Simple example: Would it be easier to hammer in 25 nails with a hammer, or 35 with a nailgun?
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