Are teachers underpaid or not?

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kiryan
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:45 pm

So... can I call Medicine from the dark ages practicing Medicine today? Just because people in the Dark Ages believed they were doing the Christian god's work, doesn't mean they were. I seem to remember some people "defending" Nazi experimentation on Jews as "science" and I seem to remember the rest of the world declaring that it was wholly not science despite the technical definition of science.

In my collegiate studies on religion we used a framework called "esse, bene esse" to determine whether a particular sect of religion was "christian". think of "esse" as essential and "bene esse" as good to have. If you have two religions that are exactly the same except one believes Christ was the son of god and the other believes Christ was just a man; then for me and most Christians one is a "valid" Christian religion and the other is not. Thats because to be a christian religion, you must believe that Christ is the son of god. Some people believe baptism is esse, some people believe baptism by dunking vs sprinkling...

But to say that they are completely different religions based on one tenet of their faith is an intellectual exercise because they are basically the same and that is what I was alluding to before. I consider Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Catholicism and Mormonism as basically the same religion... I believe Christianity is the correct one, but the others share the same core values and beliefs.

--

sarvis. maybe the key is countries where religious freedom is stronger. this is not a hard and fast position for me, but its one that I observe to be a strong indicator. Resources is a driver I have rejected as not true, as I rejected its because of "white" people as well.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Ragorn » Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:19 pm

kiryan wrote:So... can I call Medicine from the dark ages practicing Medicine today? Just because people in the Dark Ages believed they were doing the Christian god's work, doesn't mean they were.

Doesn't mean you are, either. But I subscribe to the "if it quacks like a duck" theory of religious labelling.

And sure, you can call Medicine from the dark ages "the field of Medicine." That's what it was, primitive though it was at the time.

I seem to remember some people "defending" Nazi experimentation on Jews as "science" and I seem to remember the rest of the world declaring that it was wholly not science despite the technical definition of science.

Of course it was science. It was science with very serious ethical concerns, but it was still science. And while the scientific community is generally uncomfortable with the method by which his experiments were conducted, they still acknowledge Mengele's results (he was, whether we like it or not, the world's foremost expert on identical twin studies).
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:52 am

ethical concerns. not moral concerns, ethical. Remind me what the difference is?

See thats exactly the problem, you think its Science yet the majority of Scientists and all of the world at the time condemned it as not Science.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sarvis » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:55 am

kiryan wrote:ethical concerns. not moral concerns, ethical. Remind me what the difference is?

See thats exactly the problem, you think its Science yet the majority of Scientists and all of the world at the time condemned it as not Science.


It's called distancing yourself. Not unlike Christians saying the Westboro Baptist Church members aren't real Christians.

Even though they get all their ideas from the same book.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Ragorn » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:17 am

kiryan wrote:See thats exactly the problem, you think its Science yet the majority of Scientists and all of the world at the time condemned it as not Science.

[citation needed]

And I often use moral and ethical interchangably. I'm not splitting hairs, feel free to do a simple replacement in the post above.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:26 am

If I was practicing dark ages medicine today, no one would allow me to call it medicine.

---

I don't have a citation, its just stuff I've read.

---

So do you agree science needs to be subject to moral and ethical rules?
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sarvis » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:30 am

kiryan wrote:If I was practicing dark ages medicine today, no one would allow me to call it medicine.


Sure you can, it's just Holistic Medicine. :P
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Ragorn » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:35 am

kiryan wrote:If I was practicing dark ages medicine today, no one would allow me to call it medicine.

Help me understand why this is relevant.

I don't have a citation, its just stuff I've read.

Well, it's wrong.

So do you agree science needs to be subject to moral and ethical rules?

Sure.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:40 am

Its the same as calling the judeo christian religions of the dark ages christianity.

--

Its wrong technically, or I'm wrong that the people of the time rejected the Nazi atrocities as science.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sarvis » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:46 am

kiryan wrote:Its the same as calling the judeo christian religions of the dark ages christianity.


The judeo christian religions of the dark ages DID call it Christianity. In fact, they'd probably tell us that we don't have Christianity today!
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby oteb » Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:55 am

Ragorn wrote:Of course it was science. It was science with very serious ethical concerns, but it was still science.

wiki wrote:These trials were held before U.S. military courts, not before the International Military Tribunal, but took place in the same rooms at the Palace of Justice. The trials are collectively known as the "Subsequent Nuremberg Trials", formally the "Trials of War Criminals before the Nuremberg Military Tribunals" (NMT).

wiki wrote:The indictment was filed on October 25, 1946; the trial lasted from December 9 that year until August 20, 1947. Of the 23 defendants, seven were acquitted and seven received death sentences; the remainder received prison sentences ranging from 10 years to life imprisonment.


Does it constitute for "the quashing of science and learning by the US"?

/sarcasm off
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Ragorn » Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:10 pm

kiryan wrote:Its the same as calling the judeo christian religions of the dark ages christianity.

Now that's a new one on me. Especially considering that fundamentalist Christianity really only has one tenet required to get into heaven... believe in Christ. I think I'm going to need a bit of an explanation how someone who believes in Christ isn't a Christian, especially when THEY self-identified as Christians.

Its wrong technically, or I'm wrong that the people of the time rejected the Nazi atrocities as science.

Now be clear, because it sounds like you're changing the conversation. The Nazi atrocities were genocide, not science. There's nothing scientific about the attempted extermination of an entire race of people.

Mengele was a doctor who performed human experiments on prisoners at Auschwitz. He was interested in studying identical twins, hereditary diseases, and dwarfism. I don't have adjectives strong enough to fully describe my horror at the way he performed his work... abhorrant, deplorable, and monsterous are about the best I can do. But his work was, at the core, science.

Mengele was one of the catalysts for ethics reform in science experimentation in the late 40s, thankfully. But even today, his results are still discussed, particularly his study of identical twins.

Does it constitute for "the quashing of science and learning by the US"?

Stupid liberal activist judges!
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby oteb » Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:49 am

Kifle wrote:I think you and oteb are arguing something completely different than what any of us actually meant by our statements. I can't speak for anyone else by myself, but my statements were more pointed towards intellectual stopage rather than government collapse. The 'Dark Ages' are called such for a few reasons; however, the most well known is because intellectual discovery, advancement, and opportunity had almost completely stopped. And notice I am qualifying my statement by saying "almost completely." My original statements were not made in relation to the fall of the roman empire. And, while I'm sure you can dig up a few famous names here and there that appear during the Dark Ages, their advancements are only recognized because they were made during that time period, and they were few and far between.


Well Ragorn said church was a cause of Middle Ages (Dark Ages is pejorative term, if you look for sources better browse for Middle Ages.)
Ragorn wrote:corruption and lust for power of the Catholic Church were the catalyst for the Dark Ages


But as for your point. Do you know any period of history, anywhere that had a well developed science without government?
Its hard to be devoted to science if you need to milk your cow or fend of yet another war party at your border. For science you need someone to feed you, dress you and protect you. Having some more people like that around is also quite essential.
Did you hear of any major or minor discoveries from 3rd world countries? (only thing that comes to my mind is Mmpemba effect)
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Ragorn » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:33 pm

oteb wrote:But as for your point. Do you know any period of history, anywhere that had a well developed science without government?
Its hard to be devoted to science if you need to milk your cow or fend of yet another war party at your border. For science you need someone to feed you, dress you and protect you. Having some more people like that around is also quite essential.
Did you hear of any major or minor discoveries from 3rd world countries? (only thing that comes to my mind is Mmpemba effect)

Clarify your question.

Are you heading toward the argument that the reason scientific progress stood still for a thousand years was the absence of government, rather than the Catholic Church actively quashing new thought and new ideas?

And your question about third world countries, what are you asking? Are you asking whether a country in present times with no funding, no equipment, and little education is capable of contributing to progress? Or are you asking whether any non-Christian countries in the history of the world have ever had anything to contribute?
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby oteb » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:54 pm

Yes. I am saying a country with "no funding, no equipment, and little education" has no chance of contributing to progress. Now and before. I even stated the reasons. Also if you browse my previous post out of those 1000 years 500 passed with pretty much no countries not to say about education or funding or whatever. Next 300 passed on merging after feudal tesselation and next 200 actually started to see some light as countries were formed, universities emerged etc.
You will probably burn me on stake right here but I will even go as far as saying that it was Church helped it by promoting unification and preserving latin and ancient texts (clearly not all of them, but hey paper was horribly expensive and old scrolls could be reused). Also all pieces of art, architecture and even writing from Middle Ages are of catholic origin.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:10 pm

Apparently, metalurgy and foundry technology was quite advanced due to the need for growing church bells.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Kifle » Sat Mar 21, 2009 9:12 am

oteb wrote:
Kifle wrote:I think you and oteb are arguing something completely different than what any of us actually meant by our statements. I can't speak for anyone else by myself, but my statements were more pointed towards intellectual stopage rather than government collapse. The 'Dark Ages' are called such for a few reasons; however, the most well known is because intellectual discovery, advancement, and opportunity had almost completely stopped. And notice I am qualifying my statement by saying "almost completely." My original statements were not made in relation to the fall of the roman empire. And, while I'm sure you can dig up a few famous names here and there that appear during the Dark Ages, their advancements are only recognized because they were made during that time period, and they were few and far between.


Well Ragorn said church was a cause of Middle Ages (Dark Ages is pejorative term, if you look for sources better browse for Middle Ages.)


Pejorative, yes, but there's a reason for it being pejorative, and I believe that is the reason why we are discussing this. But, to be honest, the argument really isn't worthwhile. I had something typed out, but I just don't have the endurance for something like this.

Also, you may want to reformat that picture in your last post for those who are still going to be reading this thread.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:34 am

Good published piece debunking the myths and lies about the Middle Ages, Science, and Catholicism. Awesome.

http://faculty.ugf.edu/jgretch/syllabi/ ... utione.pdf
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby oteb » Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:34 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Good published piece debunking the myths and lies about the Middle Ages, Science, and Catholicism. Awesome.

http://faculty.ugf.edu/jgretch/syllabi/ ... utione.pdf


Quite good read with a quite a few facts but it's less credible due to some glaring errors. Like:

"..., a millenarian panic occured in y2k but not over AD 1000"
The panic of ad1000 was way more severe.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Ragorn » Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:21 am

I'm not really seeing a whole lot of substance in this article. It's a bit of a straw man exercise, because the objections the author is trying to "refute" aren't really the core of the question. My assertion is that the heavy-handed influence of the Catholic Church caused a decay in the rate of scientific progress. The closest thing I can find in this paper is Question 2 Article 1 Objection 2 , which basically states that nobody did anything because ignorance was "acceptable to God." That's not really what I'm driving at, so the author's counterpoint is sort of lost.

And just look at the counterpoint to that objection. The author starts off well, by trying to assert that modern impressions of the middle ages are caused by a distortion in the works of several important figures. But he offers no support for that assertion, instead relying on an out-of-context quotation and a sort of meandering reference to Y2K. I don't see any actual answer to the objection other than a sort of cursory "Nuh uh!"

Skimming through the paper, it seems like the main presentation of the author's arguments is done with quotations from historical figures. Quotations are a poor form of evidence... anyone can cherry-pick quotes, especially given a thousand years of history to choose from. I have to just skip any paragraph in which the author tries to persuade me using a quotation. Take every sentence that begins with "[somebody] wrote," out of this paper, and how much do you have left?
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby oteb » Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:54 am

Ragorn wrote: Take every sentence that begins with "[somebody] wrote," out of this paper, and how much do you have left?


Still more than you have shown us to prove your point
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Kifle » Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:32 pm

oteb wrote:
Ragorn wrote: Take every sentence that begins with "[somebody] wrote," out of this paper, and how much do you have left?


Still more than you have shown us to prove your point


Quite frankly, I'd rather the argument presented be purely rational rather than one that only claims to be empirical and turns out to be completely biased and feign rationality. Also, denying the antecedent doesn't make for a good argument, Oteb. Presenting shitty evidence is worse than presenting no evidence -- if you want someone to ever take you seriously.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby oteb » Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:59 pm

Kifle wrote:
oteb wrote:
Ragorn wrote: Take every sentence that begins with "[somebody] wrote," out of this paper, and how much do you have left?


Still more than you have shown us to prove your point


Quite frankly, I'd rather the argument presented be purely rational rather than one that only claims to be empirical and turns out to be completely biased and feign rationality. Also, denying the antecedent doesn't make for a good argument, Oteb. Presenting shitty evidence is worse than presenting no evidence -- if you want someone to ever take you seriously.


I posted my arguments earlier on. Ragorn on other hand still only "denies the antecedent" (thanks for a new word btw;). That's what I pointed at
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