why poor people are poor

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why poor people are poor

Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:16 am

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/27/nyreg ... .html?_r=1

so some poor and disabled people got kicked off food stamps while applying for SSI when they weren't supposed to. Lawsuit finally settled and these people start getting their modest, can only be used for food, payouts.

So what do you suppose they do. Continue to live frugally? Continue to eat what they are accustomed to eating? Nope, you get story after story about how these people go out and buy steaks and turkeys and spend half their monthly food budget on thanksgiving.

Its their money, they can do whatever they want with it, but this is why we will never be able to give them enough money. When they get it, they spend it on things they really can't afford...
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Corth » Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:22 am

Bugmenot.com says use the following login on Nytimes.com

login: Noregisterme0
pw: bsbsbs

Kiryan, I don't see anything too horrible in that article. The benefits can only be used to buy food. Its holiday time. A little windfall that can't be monetized anyway.. may as well buy a turkey or ham. It has to be used on food anyway....
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 27, 2008 5:04 am

Its not outrageous, but its the principle... and its story after story after story of people doing the exact same thing and we all are supposed to get warm fuzzies because these people could have a steak.

It is plain irresponsible to take a windfall like that and go out and splurge on stuff you basically can not afford... even if it is food... while you are on government subsidies.

Its like people buying candy bars with foodstamps. You really should be making better decisions with your limited resources.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Sarvis » Thu Nov 27, 2008 5:16 am

kiryan wrote:Its not outrageous, but its the principle... and its story after story after story of people doing the exact same thing and we all are supposed to get warm fuzzies because these people could have a steak.

It is plain irresponsible to take a windfall like that and go out and splurge on stuff you basically can not afford... even if it is food... while you are on government subsidies.

Its like people buying candy bars with foodstamps. You really should be making better decisions with your limited resources.


You're comparing buying healthy food that can be used as leftovers for days on end to a candy bar?

Does anything NOT piss you off?

By the way, what percentage of total recipients is "story after story?" 5/1000? 10/1232?

Or do you make all your decisions based on jokes and anecdotes?
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:23 am

no actually pretty much everything about everyone else pisses me off.

What % do you think took that windfall and saved it for next month vs went out and bought steak and other luxury food items they normally wouldn't?
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby flib » Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:15 am

truthfully, if someone on ssi went out and bought a 20 lb turkey 5 steaks 10 lbs of potatos a ham, a pumkin pie, cornbread for stuffing, rolls and say cranberry sauce and then fed their family a really good holiday meal that'd make me proud to be an american.

Just because you're poor shouldn't mean you shouldnt be able to celebrate the holidays like everyone else. If my tax dollars can be spent to give someone a good meal then i'm in 100 pct.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Sarvis » Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:31 pm

kiryan wrote:no actually pretty much everything about everyone else pisses me off.

What % do you think took that windfall and saved it for next month vs went out and bought steak and other luxury food items they normally wouldn't?



I don't know, and I for one refuse to judge a system or a populace on the basis of a supposition.

Happy Thanksgiving!
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby avak » Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:31 pm

I don't say this lightly....this kind of hateful nonsense is almost enough for me to wish you calamity so that you can have the opportunity to see what the hell you are even talking about.

For some unknown reason you've taken it upon yourself to prove some grand, ambiguous point about the poor in our country. So good for you...like most of us here you where thrown a favorable lot in life and then used it half intelligently....hope that lot doesn't suddenly betray you. I'm done participating in this garbage.

"It is a sentiment that would sit well with Abdelkader Louali, who also lives in the Bronx and got a payout of $550. With that money Mr. Louali, who lives alone, purchased some shrimp as a treat, and he also bought $64 in food for neighbors who were in need."
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Kifle » Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:28 am

flib wrote:truthfully, if someone on ssi went out and bought a 20 lb turkey 5 steaks 10 lbs of potatos a ham, a pumkin pie, cornbread for stuffing, rolls and say cranberry sauce and then fed their family a really good holiday meal that'd make me proud to be an american.

Just because you're poor shouldn't mean you shouldnt be able to celebrate the holidays like everyone else. If my tax dollars can be spent to give someone a good meal then i'm in 100 pct.


Exactly. And like Sarvis said, Thanksgiving dinners don't last one day for most people. I usually munch on leftovers for almost a week. Sounds like instead of buying items that are cheap but devoid of nutrition (ramen, mac, etc), they are buying shit that is actually good for them and their families.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby kwirl » Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:29 pm

Lol. Damn those poor people, wasting all of that money on food. Such gluttonous wastrels!

Anyhow, as a poor person who is on the other side of this coin. Yeah, sometimes you get some money with your foodstamps and you go a little overboard. We splurge, and for a few days out of the month we eat like nomral people. Damn us. We have a steak instead of the almost-rotten meat that we normally eat. We buy something with a name-brand instead of the knock-off crap. Maybe we get some candy and ice cream so that once in a while, we can sit back and pretend for a few moments of our day that our life doesn't suck. That we aren't so lost in a system that these 'dreams' are all we have with us.

Yes, I can see how it would outrage people. But if it makes you feel better, most days we don't feel normal. e don't feel like there is a chance for us to make ourself better, to not be reliant upon a system that ironically seems to thrive on our despair.

Don't worry, myself, and many other 'poor' people like me were home alone on Thanksgiving. My father lost his job as a union engineer, and had to move away where he could get 3 a week dialysis treatment and weekly heart monitoring after his heart attacks. Some people care about their fathers, I might, I don't know. But my little sister is now just finishing school and is homeless, so I'm doing my best to take care of her. Ironically, since I'm always just a few hours away from being on the street myself. We had turkey hot dogs and ramen noodles for our thanksgiving dinner with our father 2 thousand miles away on his deathbed, who we can't afford to see.

While you lavish your disgust down upon us from above for being poor, don't flatter yourself by spending too much time on us. We don't have the heart or energy to look up anymore. But we promise, we'll try to be more considerate of your feelings when on those one or two nights a month we have to eat something that is above our station.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Corth » Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:51 pm

Kwirl wrote:Well, february or so is tax season, when i get a ton of extra cash to play with, and this year its about time for a new computer..

Link

The title of this thread suddenly becomes appropriate.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Gormal » Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:09 pm

Poor people should only eat the shit I throw away.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Tasan » Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:47 pm

Yeah, real tough to feel sorry for someone that blew their settlement money in half a year and now wants us to pity them.

Oh woe is you indeed.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Gormal » Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:42 am

People like Kwirl voted Obama, gee I wonder why.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby kwirl » Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:02 pm

Corth wrote:
Kwirl wrote:Well, february or so is tax season, when i get a ton of extra cash to play with, and this year its about time for a new computer..

Link

The title of this thread suddenly becomes appropriate.



Since the only way I can work is from home, on a computer - spending money on a decent computer isn't a luxurious waste of money, it is something I need to make an income. One day I hope to have a real job again, and if I allow myself to fall behind the curve of progress in technology, it handicaps my value to any prospective employers.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby kwirl » Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:12 pm

Tasan wrote:Yeah, real tough to feel sorry for someone that blew their settlement money in half a year and now wants us to pity them.

Oh woe is you indeed.


I dont want shit from anyone. And yes, I've made mistakes in my life that have put me where I am now, I don't deny it. If I'm bitter at anything, it is that the mistakes I made were dumb enough that I am prevented from being able to fix them, at least not easily. Over the last two years I have struggled and fought tooth and nail to conquer my drug problems, to become a better person. I wake up and look for work. I set an example for my sister and myself. I go to church and try to pay attention to my community and the lives of people around me.

I'm not defending myself, but compulsion forces me to put my hand on the table, winning or losing. Write off my statements as 'whining' or whatever you want, I don't really care. What ultimately matters at the end of the day is how I feel about myself and the life I live.

One day I'll be back in a position to support myself, and maybe, Godwilling, a family, but until then I'm going to keep working to pay my bills, take care of my debts, and to ultimately become a person that I can be proud of. And I'm proud of that. I don't need your support, encouragement, or your help. But this is a public forum, this is a community, and like it or not, I have a voice and I will damn well use it when I feel.

God bless America, and despite my personal feelings, all of you as well.

Happy holidays, maybe one day I'll be worth having one in some of your eyes, too.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Ambar » Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:48 pm

Noone is denying you a happy holiday, people are just amazed how someone can say they are barely eating, eating almost spoiled foods but yet will spend thousands of dollars on a high end computer they do not need. Use it instead to stock up on non perishables, bulk foods and paper goods if groceries are an issue with you, but a CD or SOMETHING .. Sure buy your PC but as far as everyone has said, 16GiG RAM .. you wont use that doing personal stuff at home (no job, no work as far as I can see), and any job (most?) would provide a work PC for use AT work .. personal pleasure? You don't have the time, you are job searching!

I am going to say it .. the earned income credit blows me away.. My neighbor made 9k one year and got like 5k back, I know this because that year I was a tax prep volunteer and prepared his taxes .. His taxable income was ZERO .. I made easily 8 times that amount (a few years ago) and got like 2k back if that and was as a home owner and filing jointly!

We can say all we want to about this but I am in agreement with most of you to some extent, we are a country that cannot take care of ourselves

We say we are in abject poverty but we have rooves over our heads and eat every day.. We may not be eating what we WANT but we get what we NEED.

Why can some welfare momma go to Dollar Tree with her EBT card and get CANDY, soda? Make them use it for fruits, veggies, juices .. but no, it is ANY food product. Then watch them walk into the beauty shop next door and spend the cash portion they just got back on their hair and nails ... GRR

Welfare programs, WIC, Food stamps .. all had great motives, like any government program it went to crap .. People who don't NEED the subsidies take them because they have so many mouths to feed they feel justified, people who live with their parents (my daughter) take WIC because they can, and woe is me I am a poor single mom (who has no (bleep) bills in her case) People live and sponge off these programs rather than taking ANY job as Doug mentioend .. why do we search and search and search for the 50$/hr job when we can flip burgers or pack groceries? How can we justify your food stamps (not you Daz, ANY person) when you have a broadband internet connection and full cable TV service and don't NEED it .. the list goes on :)

We are a spoiled, RICH country that is why.. you can be damned sure if I didn't have the money to eat or pay bills, clothe my kids (well that is moot since they are grown now, but still!)I would be doing ANY job I could find to survive .. I know SEVERAL single parents with THREE jobs and no food stamps or welfare .. you do what you have to do to take care of your family!

whoops sorry I Ambared it again

/soapbox
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby avak » Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:24 pm

A lot of people abuse the welfare system.

A lot of rich people abuse the tax system.

The previously unreported study estimates that taxpayers whose true income was between $500,000 and $1 million a year understated their adjusted gross incomes by 21% overall in 2001, compared to an 8% underreporting rate for those earning $50,000 to $100,000 and even lower rates for those earning less. (The "net misreporting rate" as the IRS calls it, includes both underreported income and inflated deductions.)


And I wonder which one costs the country more.

According to The Budget for Fiscal Year 2008, Historical Tables, total outlays for Means Tested Entitlements in 2006 were $354.3 billion.


It was the IRS' first such research effort since 1988, and it led the agency to estimate the 2001 gross "tax gap" at $345 billion.


The Food Stamp Program served an average of 25.7 million people each month during Fiscal Year 2005, and cost $28.6 billion for the year.


And just for fun, the Iraq war has been approved to $575 billion to date.

And finally, you should do your homework on the evils of the snap (food stamp) program before spouting off anecdotal evidence as factual.

--- studies conducted by the USDA on the receipts of food stamps purchases have found that program participants are more likely to spend their income on fruits, vegetables and healthy foods than low-income consumers who do not participate in the program.

--- Claims of fraud and abuse of the program have likewise proved to be unfounded. In 2005, 98% of food stamp benefits went to eligible households. According to the Government Accountability Office, at last count (2004), only 4.48% of food stamps benefits were found to be overpaid, down by more than a third from six years earlier. Two-thirds of all improper payments were found to be the fault of the caseworker, not the individual.

--- a University of Maryland study conducted in 2002, indicates that enrollment in the food stamps program keeps former welfare recipients from sliding back into poverty and re-enrolling in welfare programs.

But whatever, its not like logic is going to overcome the need to rationalize someone's position in life.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Corth » Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:56 pm

kwirl wrote:
Corth wrote:
Kwirl wrote:Well, february or so is tax season, when i get a ton of extra cash to play with, and this year its about time for a new computer..

Link

The title of this thread suddenly becomes appropriate.



Since the only way I can work is from home, on a computer - spending money on a decent computer isn't a luxurious waste of money, it is something I need to make an income. One day I hope to have a real job again, and if I allow myself to fall behind the curve of progress in technology, it handicaps my value to any prospective employers.


I can totally relate. If my computer didn't have 16 gigs of ram I'd fall behind the technology curve too :)

Ok sorry.. couldn't help myself. Seriously though. I think you hit the nail on the head when you started talking about mistakes. It seems to me that more than anything else, making very basic mistakes are what distinguish poor people from the middle and upper classes.

Becoming addicted to drugs.. I don't need to tell you what a mistake that is. Instead of saving money for productive purposes, and using your time in a productive manner, you are wasting money and sitting around strung out playing video games or something. While others are attending class or studying in the library, you are ordering pizza delivery.

On the other hand, a lot of the mistakes are a lot less obvious than drugs. How often do you hear of someone who graduates college with a worthless degree that allows them to make 25-30k per year? Invariably they also have like 75k of student loan debt. These are people who may have worked very hard in college, avoided drugs and munchies and all that, and ended up poor because they didn't have a good plan.

The most common mistake I see are people buying or leasing expensive new cars. This is something our politicians are trying to encourage now by making auto interest tax deductible. Its absolutely crazy. Even with a comfortable household income I prefer to drive a 10 year old Civic. Anything more, imho, is a luxury. To the extent that I take luxuries, I prefer to travel. I still come out ahead over leasing a Lexus... and I use that remaining money to work for me.. to make me more money. So that I won't be poor or dependent. I can't tell you how many people I've met over the years who blow most of their discretionary money on a nice new car, and then bitch that they can't seem to save anything up. Thats a great way to become poor.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Ambar » Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:59 pm

Anecdotal? Heh those are facts, real blood and guts people not stuff from google or whatever your choice of resource is :) My daughter got WIC and she didn't need it, lived right here with me while on it .. I work at Dollar Tree Stores help desk, I hear from stores allll over the country about how it amazes and frustrates main stream America that you can buy candy and soda on food stamps (the food stamp card is two part, food stamps and cash benefits, we support both) .. wtf :) .. but yeah not correct because I didn't spout percentages and references, only real examples :)

Come on use some common sense :) Not everything has to be googled until your point is proven, open your eyes on occasion, look around you and see what is REALLY happening vs what the bean counters say is happening :)

Again, terrific programs at the onset, abused by SOME not most .. FACT :)
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby avak » Sat Nov 29, 2008 6:37 pm

Right, because anecdotally one of my employees sheepishly asked me for a wage report the other day. When I asked her why, she confided that she needed it for food stamps. She puts herself through full time college while working 30+ hours a week for me. I wish she were the one and only employee of mine that has had gov't assistance.

But hey, that easily goes down as the most creative way to counter a factual argument that I've seen in recent years.

As for real blood and guts people, I helped pass state legislation that allows food stamps and wic to be accepted at farmer's markets. Believe it or not, there was initial pushback from markets! They didn't want to see 'poor people' at their markets making 'rich people' uncomfortable (the same shameful stigma I'm beating my head against on this bbs). Interestingly enough, many of those that were in opposition now find that these so-called poor people are some of their best customers.

And, as most people know, one of the primary drivers for poverty is....drum roll please....lack of education. Remember that discussion we had about teachers being underpaid or overpaid? Yeah, unlike Reaganomics, that actually does trickle down. So those slothful 'welfare mommas' as you so generously put it, actually need to be told that candy is not the best use of their money. I hate to rely on bean counters and studies, but all of them, every single one, demonstrate that health education (whether nutrition, sex, smoking, etc) has a positive effect.

There's not a single American here that can claim to have been completely removed from the gov't handout system. Nor is there anyone that has been on the gov't teat that can say that they used that money/resource as well as they possibly could have.

I'm pretty irate about the use of my tax money to support our asinine little skirmish in Iraq...roughly 5k for the average American household...but god forbid we stigmatize the soldiers for volunteering. God forbid we stigmatize the millions of kneejerk hawks that mandated the war. No no, we need to concentrate on poor people not abiding by their station in life.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Corth » Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:25 pm

Avak,

I completely agree with you about allowing food stamps to be used at farmer's markets. To the extent that as a society we have decided to have a welfare system, I would consider subsidizing gym memberships as well. Respect for one's body is a great foundation for making smart choices. Once you respect your body, you are not going to make poor choices with drugs, alcohol, smoking, and junk food, all of which are among the biggest scourges for poor people.

The problem with government, in the context of taking care of poor people, is the potential exists for them to become reliant upon it. We want to encourage people to be smart, independent, and we also want to instill them with a sense of personal responsibility. We want them to make a good life for themselves, not just be given a tolerable life because they were lucky enough to be born into a wealthy country. Its a touchy subject because on one hand we are not a civilized country if we allow people to starve and freeze, but on the other hand, if we give too much we take away incentive for people to make it on their own. That, in turn, is a huge burden upon our society.

I don't think the problem is a lack of education. I think in most cases when people are making mistakes they are quite aware of it. Knowing full well they are doing the wrong thing, they go ahead and do it anyway. Its simply a lack of discipline and, frankly, in many cases, a breakdown of traditional values which might encourage us to make the more difficult, yet correct, choice.

Like yourself, I don't want to stigmatize people for being poor. Rather, I want to stigmatize behavior that will inevitably lead people to become poor. I don't want to accept teen-age mothers on welfare. I want there to be some shame associated with having a child you cannot support on your own.. so that others don't do it.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Sarvis » Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:55 pm

Ambar wrote:Anecdotal? Heh those are facts, real blood and guts people not stuff from google or whatever your choice of resource is :)


I think you need to look up what anecdotal means. Yes, there are people who abuse the system. You hear about them. You DON'T hear about the ones who do not. What, people are going to call you to complain about the person who used food stamps to buy a loaf of bread? Yeah, right.

Just because you only hear about the abuse, doesn't mean that's all there is. In fact, Avak's _data_ suggests it is not as widely abused as you seem to think.

My daughter got WIC and she didn't need it, lived right here with me while on it ..


So everyone should exercise personal responsibility... until it's someone you care about? Maybe if abuse of the system concerns you so much, you should do something about it. You're as responsible as she is.



I work at Dollar Tree Stores help desk, I hear from stores allll over the country about how it amazes and frustrates main stream America that you can buy candy and soda on food stamps (the food stamp card is two part, food stamps and cash benefits, we support both) .. wtf :) .. but yeah not correct because I didn't spout percentages and references, only real examples :)


No, you're not correct because you only hear about the people abusing the system and you have no idea whatsoever how many people actually are.


Come on use some common sense :)


Common sense is what tells us a few tons of metal can't fly.

Again, terrific programs at the onset, abused by SOME not most .. FACT :)


So then should we punish MOST because SOME abuse it?
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby avak » Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:27 pm

Corth wrote:The problem with government, in the context of taking care of poor people, is the potential exists for them to become reliant upon it. We want to encourage people to be smart, independent, and we also want to instill them with a sense of personal responsibility. We want them to make a good life for themselves, not just be given a tolerable life because they were lucky enough to be born into a wealthy country. Its a touchy subject because on one hand we are not a civilized country if we allow people to starve and freeze, but on the other hand, if we give too much we take away incentive for people to make it on their own. That, in turn, is a huge burden upon our society.


I absolutely agree with this sentiment. The question then becomes, how do we translate these values in to policy and programs that work for such a huge diversity of people and experiences?

Personally, I think you have to accept this problem as a work in progress and concentrate on the programs that are showing success. The 1996 welfare reforms seemed to have had a positive effect on welfare and poverty. Giving people the tools and the opportunity to take personal responsibility is paramount. I happen to think education plays a huge role in all of that.

We are not only ethically bound to care for our community, but it makes the most sense pragmatically.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Ragorn » Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:40 pm

If you're really going to start linking "story after story" trying to convince people that welfare fraud is rampant, I'm going to link every gun violence story I can find to try to push gun control.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby kiryan » Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:43 am

I'd like to comment on the whole education and poor thing. I think it is oversimplification to outright wrong to say that education would help these "poor" people. The crux of their problems is what Corth said, that they make poor decisions (he calls it mistakes).

Buy a candy bar instead of a dozen eggs. Buy a soda or even bottled water instead of drinking tap water. What does intelligence or education have to do with these decisions? People don't buy soda or candy bars because they think its better or healthier than the alternatives, they buy it because they want it.

They buy this crap irrespective of the fact that they only have $10 to feed themselves this week. They make poor decisions, not just with their welfare money, but in everything. They skip school, play video games instead of studying for a test, stay out all night drinking and go into work half drunk and reeking of alcohol. Do we seriously need to educate people in these subjects? Will they actually be in school and paying attention enough to learn it?

I'm pretty sure education is not the answer. It may be part of the answer, but not THE answer. The problem and the answer is personal responsibility (good decision making) and parenting. Please don't kid yourself that there are 18 year olds out there that don't know that soda, cigarettes, and junk food are not "bad" for you... or even 18 year olds in the US who didn't have the opportunity to get a decent education. They may have had special challenges and forces working against them, but they had opportunity. I might give you kids that were abused.

--

I have a lot of stupid relatives. One in particular takes the cake. First, she can read decently and do math. Academically she did ok. After highschool she had this pretty decent boyfriend with a job and got pregnant. Things would've gone ok if it was his. Daddy was some jobless lowlife she was banging on the side. So now she's single with a disabled kid (probably from drinking or drugs). She's got it made. She gets free housing (hud) some SSI for the disabled kid, free healthcare and dental, welfare and everything else you can imagine. She gets pregnant again, ends up with another disabled kid. Now the cash is really rolling in.

So she decides to screw it up by dating a convicted sex offender. CPS pays her a visit and tells her she can't be exposing her kids to a convicted sex offender. So she tells them she can date whomever she wants and there is nothing they can do about it. So after a few more weeks, the state throws the sex offender in jail and takes custody of the kids (she was an unfit parent regardless of the sex offender). Now she has no money, so my dad gave her a job at the convenience store.

All she really had to do was take a shower before coming in and some light cleaning. She was doing pretty good, she was even helping my dad do the ordering which is a lot of reading and #s ect. The convenience store lasted about a three months and ended for two reasons, one, she kept coming in dirty and two, all her loser friends told her she didn't have to clean or do ordering because she was only making minimum wage.

During this 3 months, my dad helped get the state to agree to pay for some expensive dental work and some durable medical equpment to manage her diabetes... but she never goes to the appointments even though she is only working 20 hours a week. So that all goes up in smoke. A little while later with my dad's help she gets on SSI disability. Life is made again, cash is coming in, free housing food stamps ect.

So she marries a loser who straight out said, with her SSI and HUD he'd never have to work and they have an open relationship so it was perfect. Next thing you know, the police are involved. Someone is smoking pot and underage girls and boys are having sex with adults at her apartment. She starts working on a plea deal with the DA until she tells him kids start having sex when they are 13 and she doesn't know what the big deal is. They throw the book at her and she's been in jail since age 23. I think she is a convicted sex offender now as well.

Education would help here how? I'd say the vast majority of poor people in the US are that way because they make poor decisions. Not because they are uneducated.

--

Wow, I totally agree with Ambar.

Sorry to hear you are out of work Kwirl, I think you should listen to Corth.

I've heard the farmers market thing. I used to run a convenience store with my parents in a farming community of about 15k residents. We got signed up to take food stamps and loss some of the snooty clientel (who weren't even close to being "rich").
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Tasan » Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:25 am

This guy bought a compewter instead of food for his kitty. It sickens me :(

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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Gormal » Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:32 am

I'll personally attest that the reason I'm poor is because I've made poor choices. Its a bitch, but wasting money on candy, smokes, booze, etc just shouldn't be in your budget if you can't afford it. "Wanting to feel normal" is the dumbest excuse ever, and its only a weak assed way for you to justify yet another bad choice. One of the reasons I took the job I'm at now is because they feed me while I'm there, and behind rent, food is my biggest bill. I quit smoking because I couldn't afford it, I bring tupperware to work so I can take food home that they're going to throw out, and I don't waste money on television, or even internet right now when I can use open networks.

There are plenty of manual labor jobs that pay well out there that people think are below their station so they remain unemployed or poor. Hey guess what, you're lower class if you're on welfare and SHOULD be getting your hands dirty to earn that paycheck. I don't care what skills you think you have, or what kind of job you're qualified for or deserve, get off your fat unemployed ass and find a job. Yeah, you might be working shoulder to shoulder with an immigrant until you find something better... but thats the spirit of this country: hard work rewarding the hard worker.

Getting a red white and blue boner over someone blowing their food stamps to celebrate the wholesale slaughter of Native Americans just contributes to the problem.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Ambar » Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:01 am

Sarvis .. Did I say i agree with my daughter living here and collecting WIC? LOL no .. I was using her as an example of one who has abused the system .. I think it is disgusting she was allowed to receive the subsidy when people actually NEED it...

Anecdotes are stories, was there a point here or were you being goofy on purpose?
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Sarvis » Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:45 pm

Ambar wrote:Sarvis .. Did I say i agree with my daughter living here and collecting WIC? LOL no .. I was using her as an example of one who has abused the system .. I think it is disgusting she was allowed to receive the subsidy when people actually NEED it...


You're still letting her. You're her parent, and you're the one putting a roof over her head. What, you've forgotten "you'll follow my rules while you live under my roof?" I know my mom never did...

Anecdotes are stories, was there a point here or were you being goofy on purpose?



You're calling them facts, and making it sound like the system is rife with abuse because you have a few stories to tell.

There's a reason you don't rely on anecdotes in an argument. It's because, as you say, they are stories.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby avak » Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:28 pm

So I guess the message here is that some of you, despite doing anything other than to pontificate, are suggesting that our country take a 'tough love' approach to poverty. That the best way to 'solve' poverty is to remove things like welfare and food stamps so that people are forced to learn personal responsibility. Is that true? Anyone want to elaborate on what they would do?

And Kiryan, I didn't say education was the sole answer to poverty, I said it was a primary driver. Why do you think people that receive food stamps are more likely to buy healthful foods? I'd suggest it is because of the education element of the program.

Here's a study for you anecdote lovers out there...

Strawn reports that when education is combined with multidimensional job training, readiness, and a quality job search, the returns more than double. One Portland, Oregon, program resulted in a 25 percent increase in earnings, a 21 percent increase in employment, and a 22 percent reduction of time spent on welfare (all compared with a control group that didn't get the services).


I'd suggest reading the article. It also talks about the ridiculous 'roi' for investing in early childhood education.

Is Education the Cure for Poverty?
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Tasan » Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:38 pm

What is with you and your "holier than thou" attitude? Seriously, how about you drop it and take things with a grain of salt.

I want the system cleaned up, not eliminated entirely. There's quite a large difference.

Get off your own soap box.

Also, Gormal's from Oregon, so we all know what a little education could actually do for someone from there; I didn't need any cited proof from some study.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby avak » Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:19 pm

I didn't realize I was coming off as holier than thou. I'll honestly try to keep that in check because it really isn't my intention.

On the other hand, I wasn't just addressing you, Tasan. There are several people in this and other threads that seem to have an attitude of: just pick yourself up by the bootstraps. That leads me to believe that some of these people would like to see entitlement programs for the poor eliminated. Is that crazy to think?

So, you want the system cleaned up. No offense, but that is meaningless.

I said education provides documented benefits. Other people disagree. I'd love to hear what you mean when you say you want the system cleaned up.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Gormal » Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:59 am

Love you too, Doug.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Pril » Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:44 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Ambar wrote:Sarvis .. Did I say i agree with my daughter living here and collecting WIC? LOL no .. I was using her as an example of one who has abused the system .. I think it is disgusting she was allowed to receive the subsidy when people actually NEED it...


You're still letting her. You're her parent, and you're the one putting a roof over her head. What, you've forgotten "you'll follow my rules while you live under my roof?" I know my mom never did...


She's her mother Sarvis. You can't expect her to kick her out of her home and have her daughter be homeless. No good parent will do that. She can talk to her about right and wrong and explain to her that she shouldn't be collecting WIC but in the end there's only so much she can do without kicking her out of the home... see first sentence.

avak wrote:There are several people in this and other threads that seem to have an attitude of: just pick yourself up by the bootstraps. That leads me to believe that some of these people would like to see entitlement programs for the poor eliminated. Is that crazy to think


Avak,
When my Dad was in college he needed money, he went to work at a lumber yard cutting tree's and moving lumber. My Dad is 5'8" and 130 lbs on a good day, not the ideal size of a lumberjack by any means. It's a question of your belief's. If you believe others shouldn't be taking care of you then they never will. You'll get that job at the grocery store or the lumber yard or a construction site or McDonalds to make your way through the hard times. The issue is motivation. If the rules on the programs were more stringent and didn't take care of people without some sort of checking even if it was spot checking then people would be more inclined to get jobs to sustain them. And while it's amusing even if you have no education you can still earn a good wage if you're motivated. Become an electricians apprentice. Learn to be an electrician. Earn money doing that, they make a lot. Become a construction workers apprentice, work hard, become a foreman. Etc. Yeah I understand that not everyone can be the foreman because then you'd have no people to work under you on the job site, but I doubt this country will ever encounter the problem that SO many people are motivated enough to succeed that we have an issue finding people to fill the lower level jobs.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Sarvis » Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:24 pm

Pril wrote:She's her mother Sarvis. You can't expect her to kick her out of her home and have her daughter be homeless. No good parent will do that. She can talk to her about right and wrong and explain to her that she shouldn't be collecting WIC but in the end there's only so much she can do without kicking her out of the home... see first sentence.


Ah, but there it is. It's ok to care too much about your own daughter to make her choose between homelessness or not using welfare, but it's not ok to give others that same break? She's advocating forcing that homelessness on others while allowing her daughter to abuse the system.

Besides, I'm willing to bet that her daughter would give up the WIC if the other option was homelessness.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Ambar » Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:06 pm

Spoken like the childless :) She only received WIC a few months, the renewal process was too much for her to repeat .. my entire point on using her as an example was to depict the FACT that it is far too easy to receive benefits from these programs .. While you have to site total household income, you do not have to PROVE it, hell even with Financial Aid from colleges you have to PROVE income with Tax papers, earning statements, etc .. least I had to with my other daughter .. I think that spot checks are in order, monitoring those who are on the program, making it a little tougher to actually receive the benefit .. maybe have to provide receipts on what the WIC /Food Stamp/other benefit was used for? Not sure here but whether abuse is as rampant as I hear every day from our stores every day, it DOES exist .. I don't consider stricter guidelines a punishment, think of it as more benefits for those who actually NEED them.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby avak » Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:29 pm

Ambar wrote:Spoken like the childless :) She only received WIC a few months, the renewal process was too much for her to repeat .. my entire point on using her as an example was to depict the FACT that it is far too easy to receive benefits from these programs


I totally agree with smarter use of the money through more stringent oversight, but that also costs taxpayer money. Ultimately, you have to allow for some abuse or you end up wasting all of the well intentioned money on bureaucracy. It would appear to me that we are coming to some sort of consensus that government support is good, but needs to go to people who really need it and should not unnecessarily impede personal responsibility for being the guiding force.

But, I'm confused about the quoted part above. The renewal process was hard enough to deter your daughter from taking money that is far too easy to receive?

And maybe this isn't true, but the USDA site says that verification is necessary for eligibility.

Households must meet eligibility requirements and provide information – and verification -- about their household circumstances.


Seeing as how I have to provide wage and hours information for employees that want to enroll, I would assume that verification is necessary in my state.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Kegor » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:35 am

I think another reason people might need these programs or have not done as well for themselves in a lot of cases is not being able to relocate. If I would have stayed in that dead end town I grew up in I would not being doing as well for myself. First reason is the job market there. There was nothing but minimum wage jobs, or just above it, while rent was through the roof. Comparing California to Minnesota is amazing in a lot of ways. When I first moved to Minnesota, I payed less than half the rent I would have for an apartment (bigger and nicer for the money too), while at the same time making more than double what I would have at numerous different jobs that were insanely easy to get and pick and choose from. Making over 50k a year without a college education while decent 3 bedroom houses start at around 95k, I love my decision to move. Some of my friends that stayed there without a college education have not done so well, and might be on some or all of the programs mentioned above for some or all of the reasons above, but I think location has a lot to do with it.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Corth » Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:50 am

Kegor,

That fits in well with the job market discussion in the 'are teachers overpaid?' thread. My argument would be that the market is properly allocating resources by sending human capital (you) from point a to point b where it is more needed (and thus more rewarded). Sounds to me like your decision was a no-brainer.

I personally wish that I was able to move as well, but I have too many roots on Long Island. However, I see a lot of my childhood friends leaving for the same exact reason that you did. The standard of living here is declining because average costs exceed average compensation.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Sarvis » Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:37 am

Corth wrote:Kegor,

That fits in well with the job market discussion in the 'are teachers overpaid?' thread. My argument would be that the market is properly allocating resources by sending human capital (you) from point a to point b where it is more needed (and thus more rewarded). Sounds to me like your decision was a no-brainer.

I personally wish that I was able to move as well, but I have too many roots on Long Island. However, I see a lot of my childhood friends leaving for the same exact reason that you did. The standard of living here is declining because average costs exceed average compensation.


So what you're saying is that the "no brainer" choice isn't necessarily one everyone can make?

Interesting.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Corth » Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:15 am

These 'gotcha' moments of yours are starting to get irritating.

I'll clarify my statement, though its entirely unnecessary, and say that from a financial perspective its a no-brainer for someone to move from such a location, while at the same time, other factors such as social and family ties, may ultimately outweigh the financial one.

Satisfied?
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Pril » Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:23 am

Corth wrote:These 'gotcha' moments of yours are starting to get irritating.

I'll clarify my statement, though its entirely unnecessary, and say that from a financial perspective its a no-brainer for someone to move from such a location, while at the same time, other factors such as social and family ties, may ultimately outweigh the financial one.

Satisfied?


So what you're saying is that the 4th letter of your post is the letter 's'?
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Corth » Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:12 am

Why Poor People Are Poor, by Kwirl:

Kwirl wrote: Things I've Spent Money On...

About a thousand dollars buying gifts for friends

2006 nissan altima SE fully loaded

17" flatscreen LCD, lightscribe DVD burner, AMD 64X2 4200, radeon X800PCIE, X-FI platinum soundblaster

Razr phone, matte black finish

60GB Ipod, black finish

20 thousand towards a new home

a six pack of guinness

got my septum repierced

paid my current rent/utilities through the end of the year

and ive STILL got a ton of money in my 'wasteme' fund left


Link (courtesy of pril)
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:27 am

sigh, if only he had listened.

I remember being young and stupid, you think for some reason that your situation is different...
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Sarvis » Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:03 pm

Corth wrote:These 'gotcha' moments of yours are starting to get irritating.

I'll clarify my statement, though its entirely unnecessary, and say that from a financial perspective its a no-brainer for someone to move from such a location, while at the same time, other factors such as social and family ties, may ultimately outweigh the financial one.

Satisfied?


Sorry, I was just remembering the zillions of times you told me to move away from Buffalo to make it easier to find work. Not that I knew anyone in the "hot" cities, had the money for a move, had a job lined up OR any kind of support structure there. In short, it was impossible for me to actually move yet you were acting like I was being stupid and deserved to be broke because of it. Talk about irritating...

Then, of course, there's your little rant about how poor people are poor because they make the wrong decisions... meanwhile you are anything but poor and are telling us you're not making the right choice due to "other factors."
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Corth » Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:57 pm

I made the right choice not to move, Sarvis, because family and friends are important to me. On the other I am not using drugs, I am not an alcoholic, I don't gamble, I have not knocked up any teen hoochies, I studied hard while in school and graduated, I carry life insurance and disability insurance and health insurance in case something bad happens, and I drive a 10 year old car even though I could afford something a lot nicer. Those are the types of decisions, Sarvis, we're talking about in this thread. Also, and of great importance, I make a decent living in the place where I am at, so i can AFFORD to decide not to leave. You on the other hand were complaining that your economic prospects were nil in Buffalo, so the obvious advice is for you to leave. Unfortunately, your attitude is that if things are bad in Buffalo, then somebody (government?) should just make things better for you. Not going to happen.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Sarvis » Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:12 pm

Corth wrote:I made the right choice not to move, Sarvis, because family and friends are important to me. On the other I am not using drugs, I am not an alcoholic, I don't gamble, I have not knocked up any teen hoochies, I studied hard while in school and graduated, I carry life insurance and disability insurance and health insurance in case something bad happens, and I drive a 10 year old car even though I could afford something a lot nicer. Those are the types of decisions, Sarvis, we're talking about in this thread.


Should I dredge up a list of now-rich people who HAVE (or not in the case of studying) done those things? I think first would be Pres. Bush and Paris Hilton... of course they started off rich so maybe that doesn't count to you. I'm sure I could find some high school dropouts who made it big though. I'm almost certain I can find self made men who blow money on blow, a quick trip through wall street should manage that.

The simple truth is that you don't get rich by scrimping and saving. You get rich by making tons of money. There are even rich people who have made that money by gambling, which you just listed as something to avoid! Your lifestyle may lead you to be a millionaire by the time you retire... but you'll never be rich. Lots of people will be millionaires by the time you make it, because they're all doing the same things you are and funding their 401(ks). You get rich by accelerating ahead of the curve, not by sticking within it. It doesn't matter how many teen hoochies you knock up, how much you gamble away, or how much you snort up your nose when you're pulling in a few million each year though.


Also, and of great importance, I make a decent living in the place where I am at, so i can AFFORD to decide not to leave. You on the other hand were complaining that your economic prospects were nil in Buffalo, so the obvious advice is for you to leave. Unfortunately, your attitude is that if things are bad in Buffalo, then somebody (government?) should just make things better for you. Not going to happen.


Actually that wasn't my attitude at all. Other than unemployment I collected no aid. But maybe you can explain how one moves to another city with no family and no money. I'm sure we're all DYING to know why I could do something you couldn't when I had fewer resources. Remember to blame me for extra credit!
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:47 pm

Sarvis wrote:But maybe you can explain how one moves to another city with no family and no money. I'm sure we're all DYING to know why I could do something you couldn't when I had fewer resources. Remember to blame me for extra credit!


My parents, and thousands of other Cubans, left the island with $0.00 to come here. Some have come on rafts. They did not know the language. In relation to years in the country, and population size, we have the highest incomes, millionaries, top 100 companies, etc. per capita. They came in the early 1960s btw. What is always mentioned as one of the main reasons for their success? Their work ethic.

I can think of no better example Sarvis than that of the immigrant.
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Re: why poor people are poor

Postby Ragorn » Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:52 pm

Anyone in here ever actually been poor?

I lived in Blacksburg for a little over six years, four of which I was a student. The other two years, I worked full time, and I was married to Emily and she was also working full time. The employment landscape in Blacksburg/Christiansburg is bleak at best. There are 25,000 undergrads on campus, many of whom are looking for work. There are also a couple thousand grad students, plus any number of graduate holdovers who haven't moved away yet. Then there are the locals. The town isn't really big enough to support a labor force of that size, so as you'd expect according to the laws of supply and demand, even the jobs that were available paid minimum wage or slightly higher.

I worked at the call center for 18 months because it was the highest paying job in town. They paid $9/hour for full time work, and the reason they paid so much (if $9/hr can be considered "so much") is because they knew their working conditions were the worst in town. But regardless, Emily and I both worked there, because we needed the money. Between us, we made about $36k a year. We didn't have health insurance, because Echostar's "health plan" was the same plan you could get by calling Anthem yourself and signing up as an individual under the worst plan (70% coverage, no doctor visits, no prescriptions, $750 deductible, and the premiums were around $215/month for the two of us).

I eventually left the call center because they wouldn't give me time off to take my finals. I started working as a shift manager at Gamestop, which paid $7/hr.

Why didn't I get a better job?
35,000 people competing for 6,000 jobs. University jobs were only given to grad students and doctorate candidates. The nearest city was Roanoke, which wasn't a large enough city to support all the degree-wielding graduate holdovers who flooded it every year looking for work. I applied, sent resumes, contacted temp agencies and placement organizations, and went through all the motions I could find. Manpower found me two jobs over six months... one was cutting grass, one was hauling trash cans around town. Both jobs lasted a week. Never so much as had an interview in Roanoke.

Why didn't we move away?
Couldn't afford to. Between our two incomes, we were still living paycheck to paycheck. After taxes, we took home about $2000 a month (combined) and had $900 a month in rent and utility expenses (my rent was $625/mo... we shared a one-bedroom). My "entertainment" budget was $15 a month for World of Warcraft... we didn't see movies, go clubbing, or go to bars. Our money went toward gas, work clothes when needed, food, and unexpected emergencies (dental work, Emily broke her wrist, car needed brakes, that kind of thing).

We wanted to move away, but we couldn't afford the actual moving expenses (truck and travel). We also couldn't afford to make the rent jump to a larger area... the rent at our first two-bedroom apartment in No. VA was double what we were paying in Blacksburg. We couldn't swing the "first month plus security deposit" payment because we didn't have $2800 in loose cash to put up. I wanted to try to land a job first, rather than gambling by just moving to a larger area... but I also couldn't afford the travel expenses to go to interviews. I did a couple phone interviews (woot Sigil Games!), but they didn't pan out.

How did we finally escape?
Emily's dad lent us money for the moving truck and offered a bedroom in his house for three months while we got situated. We moved up to Northern VA, I found a job making $15/hour (double my previous salary... double!), Emily started working full time, and we lived rent-free for three months. That gave us time to squirrel away the lump sum we needed to get a place to put our feet down.

How long was I on government assistance?
I wasn't. I never went on WIC or welfare.

However, if I did, it might have made it possible for me to move away from Blacksburg sooner. All that really stood between us and getting out was a couple thousand dollars in moving expenses and rent. If we had applied for aid and gotten enough relief to start putting some money away, it might have been possible for us to do it without begging cash and free lodging off Emily's family.

So shrug, that's my story. That's why I support welfare programs. I know what it's like to feel absolutely trapped by your life, with no end in sight and no clear plan to get to a better place. I think some people stay poor because they make bad decisions. If you make $36k a year, you shouldn't own a plasma television. But I also don't begrudge people who are struggling for making small quality of life expenditures. I don't look down at poor people who go to the movies once a month as "wasting money they could be saving." Everyone needs to find some small measure of happiness day to day, and using that as ammunition for your "welfare fraud" argument is just asinine.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.

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