time to immigrate to europe

Life, the universe, and everything.
Forum rules
- No personal attacks against players or staff members - please be civil!
- No posting of mature images/links, keep content SFW. If it's NSFW, don't post it on these forums.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

time to immigrate to europe

Postby kiryan » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:56 pm

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123145414405365887.html

All I can say is wow. Its amazing that they even have profitable businesses. I guess if you have a 40% tax rate, you don't have to tax the businesses too much.
kwirl
Sojourner
Posts: 780
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Delaware
Contact:

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby kwirl » Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:27 am

He made 14 stops of five minutes each and certified all 14 employees as sick. He enjoys his job, he says. The government pays him $46 a visit, and in between stops, he listens to his favorite CDs



2 hours of work a day, about 700 bucks.
daggaz
Sojourner
Posts: 464
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 4:17 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby daggaz » Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:11 pm

I am guaranteed 21 days a year from my company, after that it is the government which takes responsibility and the business can then elect to lay me off, tho usually if you are a good employee and really are sick, they would never do that.

I dont take them tho as a rule unless I really am sick, which isnt too often. On the rare occasion ill call in a hangover, but that is just ...yeah, i like to be more responsible than that. Just personal work ethics, besides it comes back to you when your boss is comparing you with all your coworkers for the annual salary talks.
avak
Sojourner
Posts: 672
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:01 am

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby avak » Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:02 pm

What I find most interesting is that European countries continually beat the US in all sorts of metrics. Like for example, general standard of living indices. Also though, our productivity isn't even all that hot.

We were recently ranked 12th in the world in GDP and around 8th for purchasing power parity, with several European countries ahead of us.

You'd think that with all the bureaucracy and taxes and lack of capitalist incentive that the European counties would be in a lot worse shape.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Corth » Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:21 pm

You must be thinking about per capita GDP Avak. US is ranked #1 in GDP, about 3x more than its closest competitor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Sarvis » Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:25 pm

Corth wrote:You must be thinking about per capita GDP Avak. US is ranked #1 in GDP, about 3x more than its closest competitor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)



Err... so we're basically relying on the size of our population to cover for the fact that we suck? No wonder China is such a threat...
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Corth » Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:26 pm

BTW even in per capita GDP, we're ranked 4th, 6th, or 8th depending on the index. With the one ranked #8, only ireland and Norway are ahead in terms of european countries. Certainly a small homogenous country without the challanges that a larger more heterogenous country such as ours has, would have a built in advantage in terms of per capita.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Corth » Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:33 pm

Note that in the per capita list, Germany which is the economic powerhouse of europe, is ranked in the 20s. Its simply very unusual for a large country to be ranked high in GDP per capita. The #1 ranking goes to Bermuda, hardly an economic giant. For the US, as large as it is, to be ranked in the single digits is impressive. In terms of brute force GDP, the ranking of nations economic output, US is so far ahead in #1 its not even funny. Its really difficult to argue against the economic supremacy of the US. At least for another few years until China overtakes us and the effect of our drift towards socialism turns our economy more 'european'
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby kiryan » Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:33 pm

thanks for owning Corth. We may be on a downhill track, but you don't have to look very far to see why with great Americans like these around.

I've never worked for a company that had seperate sick time. Its always been PTO = sick and vacation. Sometimes holidays are also PTO, sometimes they are separate.

I'm pretty sure I could be depressed enough to convince a psychologist if I wanted to. Seriously what a gig.
Nokar
Sojourner
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:01 am
Location: kokomo, in, usa

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Nokar » Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:45 pm

Daggaz, You work for a union? Just wondering...

kiryan wrote:I've never worked for a company that had seperate sick time. Its always been PTO = sick and vacation. Sometimes holidays are also PTO, sometimes they are separate.

I'm pretty sure I could be depressed enough to convince a psychologist if I wanted to. Seriously what a gig.


Maybe you should lobby the company to get them to allow those rights to it's employees? Or maybe put in for a union job so you get paid time off.

L8r all,
Rhoquinn group says 'Nok no wandering!'
You group say 'Is there any aggro's here?'
You flee westward!
You group say 'ummm guys?'
Rhoquinn group says 'Dammit Nok'
Welcome to toril
avak
Sojourner
Posts: 672
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:01 am

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby avak » Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:35 pm

Yes, I was looking at per capita GDP and PPP.

I happen to be a faithful believer in the free market enterprise. I've mentioned this before, but as of today I own three separate businesses and employee nearly thirty people. I'll never work for another person again in my life. I love business, competition and risk. So, I'm not suggesting that we have an unworkable system. I would only leave the US if I knew there was another country that had a significantly better business climate.

The fundamental difference is how I view resources...human and material...especially human. My management philosophy is to create loyalty and ownership in the workplace...and not through corporate team-building nonsense and new myopic incentive programs. I try to empathize with my staff and treat them like humans...like I would want to be treated.

That view extends into my politics. I think the world is a better (and more productive) place when people are educated, fed, housed, protected and supported. If you think government spending is wasteful (and of course it is) then you should run for office.
avak
Sojourner
Posts: 672
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:01 am

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby avak » Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:37 pm

kiryan wrote:We may be on a downhill track, but you don't have to look very far to see why with great Americans like these around.

Who are you referring to here?
avak
Sojourner
Posts: 672
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:01 am

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby avak » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:14 pm

Bump for Kiryan because I know with your big mouth and straight forward nature you must have just missed my simple question.

Or does the Man have you cranking out extra widgets today, like a great American?
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Kifle » Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:18 pm

Widgets are delicious.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
oteb
Sojourner
Posts: 432
Joined: Mon May 27, 2002 5:01 am
Location: poland

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby oteb » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:49 pm

EU
GDP (official exchange rate):
$16.62 trillion (2007 est.)
>
US
GDP (official exchange rate):
$13.84 trillion (2007 est.) [/b]

Source: CIA Factbook.

I wanna see Corth wiggle now explaining US has more per capita;)
You group-say 'who is da red shape?'
A red shape group-says 'I'm a shape'
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Ragorn » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:11 am

Honestly, I've never even used all my sick time as it is. I can't imagine having a month off.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Corth » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:20 am

I was not considering the EU as a single country. As far as I know, the member nations remain sovereign states, but with a shared currency and economic policy, correct?

If you notice, on all three rankings of GDP, including the one by the CIA factbook which you quoted, the EU is not given a rank. It is listed higher than the US, but not ranked. Then below it each individual country has a ranking. So according to the CIA factbook, the US is ranked first, Japan second, and Germany third. Germany, obviously is a member of the EU, but receives its own ranking. The same ranking system is conducted by the World Bank and the IMF as well.

Wikipedia GDP Ranking
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
oteb
Sojourner
Posts: 432
Joined: Mon May 27, 2002 5:01 am
Location: poland

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby oteb » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:40 am

Corth wrote:I was not considering the EU as a single country. As far as I know, the member nations remain sovereign states, but with a shared currency and economic policy, correct?


They are independent subjects of international law thats for sure but usually share common foreign affairs guidelines. Ministry of Foreign Affairs for whole EU is something currently discussed and argued but it should happen within 5-15 years i guess since even now the country that holds presidency sets the course sometimes quite strictly.
Other than currency, shared market and partialy shared budget countries share some statutory law and something akin to Supreme Court.
And US is a federation too right?:P
That aside I thought we were comparing economies here.
You group-say 'who is da red shape?'

A red shape group-says 'I'm a shape'
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:45 am

Corth wrote:I was not considering the EU as a single country. As far as I know, the member nations remain sovereign states, but with a shared currency and economic policy, correct?


Err, aren't the States essentially sovereign states but with a shared currency and economic policy?

I've always found it odd that we compare the United States against Britain or Germany, but never Europe as a whole. It seems like a more even match somehow...
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Corth » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:13 am

No, the United state is a country. The EU is an economic union.

In some respects it makes sense to compare the US to Europe. I think thats why they note the European Union within the rankings albeit without a rank. However, if we are ranking countries then it is certainly appropriate to give Germany its own ranking, France, etc., because each European country is indeed sovereign and independent.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
oteb
Sojourner
Posts: 432
Joined: Mon May 27, 2002 5:01 am
Location: poland

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby oteb » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:27 am

Somewhat related. I dont know much about history of US but isnt it so that the states are independent and sovereign in regards to matters not transferred to federal government?
Because this is just the situation in EU. Right now in Poland around 70% of legislative acts are just a transcription of EU federal law. Granted the merging of army and foreign affairs which traditionally constitute "sovereign" nations is a bit behind but is in the works. And as I said judicatory system already is partially merged by final appeal court.
You group-say 'who is da red shape?'

A red shape group-says 'I'm a shape'
avak
Sojourner
Posts: 672
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:01 am

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby avak » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:33 am

From wikipedia

The European Union (EU) is an economic and political union of 27 member states, located primarily in Europe. The EU operates through a hybrid system of intergovernmentalism and supranationalism.

and

The United States of America (commonly referred to as the United States, the U.S., the USA, or America) is a federal constitutional republic comprising fifty states and a federal district.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:47 am

Corth wrote:No, the United state is a country. The EU is an economic union.


No shit, my point was that the EU resembles the US in organization. They're essentially functioning like us, but without declaring themselves a single sovereign country.

In some respects it makes sense to compare the US to Europe. I think thats why they note the European Union within the rankings albeit without a rank. However, if we are ranking countries then it is certainly appropriate to give Germany its own ranking, France, etc., because each European country is indeed sovereign and independent.



Sovereign and independant, until you get to their economy... which is what this is supposed to be measuring.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Corth » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:16 am

Its certainly a reasonable argument. When I discuss rankings, I am quoting from the three sources: CIA Factbook, World Bank, and IMF. None of them rank the EU. They rank the member states. You CAN extrapolate a GDP for the EU as a whole, which would exceed that of the United States. The GDP of the Eurozone (containing only EU states that have adopted the Euro currency), is less than that of the US.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:11 pm

Corth wrote:Its certainly a reasonable argument. When I discuss rankings, I am quoting from the three sources: CIA Factbook, World Bank, and IMF. None of them rank the EU. They rank the member states. You CAN extrapolate a GDP for the EU as a whole, which would exceed that of the United States. The GDP of the Eurozone (containing only EU states that have adopted the Euro currency), is less than that of the US.


So you're hiding behind the official ratings, ignoring the fact that the EU's GDP is better than ours when we have a similar setup? Just because numbers are official doesn't mean they tell the entire story.

Not to mention that some member's of the EU have absolutely horrible economies which are probably dragging their "unofficial" rating down.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Corth » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:03 pm

Rofl yes Sarvis, I am "hiding" behind the numbers. Quivering in my pants too! While at the same time I agree with you that it might be reasonable to take into account Europe as a whole instead of the individual member states. Lots of hiding and quivering!

BTW Sarvis, GDP is not an average. Its cumulative. If North Korea was in Europe it could only help their GDP. Heh.

Here's my suggestion Sarvis. A little bit of homework for you. Go ask the World Bank, the IMF, and the CIA why they don't give the EU a ranking. I'm just as curious as you!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:10 pm

So then what are you arguing here Corth? I thought you were trying to say that the US economy is better than Europe by comparing the entire US to individual stat... err... countries of the EU. If the 27 member countries of the EU have a better combined GDP than the 50 member states of the US shouldn't that mean they're economy is better overall?

I mean, how is it "hard not to argue the economic supremacy of the US" when the EU is doing better? Unless you rest on a technicality that is...
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Corth » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:42 pm

If you consider the EU a country then its GDP exceeds that of the US.

But it isn't a country. The EU countries, for instance, despite various attempts, do not share a particularly cohesive foreign policy. If a member nation, lets say Greece, were to become involved in a war with another country, it would not be able to marshall the combined economic strength of all of Europe to finance that war. Rather, it would fund the war based on its own individual financial strength.

On the other hand, the US would be able to marshall the resources of the entire country in order to carry out their goal.

Which is one illustration of why looking at GDP of individual countries in Europe is more appropriate. GDP is a measure of economic output of countries. In a very real sense, it shows the financial POWER of a country. If the EU as a political body does not have the capability of wielding that power then how is it relevent to rank it?

But like I said, it would behoove you to get an official answer from the CIA, World Bank, and IMF. I have a feeling that the economists at those organizations who decided NOT to rank the EU could articulate the reasoning a whole lot more accurately than either of us.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:53 pm

So our economy is better because we have a combined standing army?

You're right, I probably would get a better answer from the CIA or World Bank. If I expected them to actually bother answering that is...

EDIT: As for "wielding" that power, armies are not your best example. Embargos would be better. Would the EU be able to declare an embargo on some other country, rather than going to war? That's economic power.... not military power.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Ragorn » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:55 pm

Can we also compare Montana's GDP to Germany's? I mean, they're basically the same thing, right?
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:07 pm

Ragorn wrote:Can we also compare Montana's GDP to Germany's? I mean, they're basically the same thing, right?


I dunno about Montana, but I'm sure we could compare Germany to some state. New York maybe?
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Ragorn » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:14 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Ragorn wrote:Can we also compare Montana's GDP to Germany's? I mean, they're basically the same thing, right?


I dunno about Montana, but I'm sure we could compare Germany to some state. New York maybe?

Whatever point you were originally trying to make in this thread has been lost in your attempt to justify uneven comparisons. As with most threads you're in, I don't even know what stance you're trying to argue anymore.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:19 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Ragorn wrote:Can we also compare Montana's GDP to Germany's? I mean, they're basically the same thing, right?


I dunno about Montana, but I'm sure we could compare Germany to some state. New York maybe?

Whatever point you were originally trying to make in this thread has been lost in your attempt to justify uneven comparisons. As with most threads you're in, I don't even know what stance you're trying to argue anymore.


*groan* Ok, yeah. Whatever. The US has the bestest economy ever because you can't compare a union of countries to a union of states. *roll*

Seriously, how can you people have such a difficult time following an argument? I just restated the point 2 posts ago even!

For that matter, did you even have a point with bringing up Montana? You weren't doing anything different than me with it, and dropped even the ATTEMPT at showing how they might not be comparable.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
avak
Sojourner
Posts: 672
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:01 am

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby avak » Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:02 pm

The thread seemed to devolve when I mentioned that European countries rank highly in many measured indices. I cited a few subjective ones: quality of life, happiness, health care. I also said that their productivity is really not that bad -considering- the implication of the original post that the European countries are economically imprudent. "All I can say is wow. Its amazing that they even have profitable businesses." That was the quote I was going off of.

The point I was making was not that the US sucks or that our system sucks or that we're not a productive country. It was simply that the EU model seems to be working on a number of levels....thus running counter to the original assertion.

So whatever the hell you guys are bickering about now is beyond me and seemingly unrelated to much of anything worth discussing. I'd be a lot more interested in examining the parts of the European model that work versus the parts of the American model that work/don't work.
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Ragorn » Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:58 pm

I tried to formulate a coherent reply ... but I can't do it. I think I've finally reached the point where I realize the futility in trying to reason with Sarvis... it cannot be done.

Next step is the ignore list, with teflor.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:07 pm

Ragorn wrote:I tried to formulate a coherent reply ... but I can't do it. I think I've finally reached the point where I realize the futility in trying to reason with Sarvis... it cannot be done.

Next step is the ignore list, with teflor.


Cute. The thing here is, you HAVEN'T tried to reason with me at all here. You asked if Montana and Germany should be compared, and then started this crap. Why shouldn't they be?

If you want to ignore me then fine. You're explaining nothing and then blaming me for not getting your point. Your basic expectation is that I should just agree with a point you haven't even stated without any evidence. In argument there is a concept called a Warrant, which is essentially the basis for a point of view. You are assuming we share the Warrant that countries and states are different, when we do not. This is not about my reasoning ability, this is a simple matter of us not agreeing on some fundamental piece of your argument. Even Corth thinks my idea that the EU can be comparable to the US is reasonable!

If you're going to say I can't be reasoned with, at least TRY to reason with me first.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Ragorn » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:14 pm

Okie dokie, I'll give it a shot.

Near as I can tell, you're arguing that the US and the EU should be held up to direct comparison in terms of GDP and economic power. Corth has already explained to you why this is not so. It's inappropriate to compare a single country against an entire economic conglomerate. That is a fact that's not at all up for dispute... as Corth cited, all of the world's major economic foundations are in agreement in recognizing the EU as a coalition of nations and not a single entity. Your response to actual cited fact was to tell Corth to stop "hiding behind the official ratings."

What I'm saying is -- stop arguing this. There is no direct comparison between the US and the EU. Nobody is going to entertain your arguments on this topic... it's like arguing the color of the sky or the value of pi. It doesn't matter if you see similarties between the organization of states within the US and countries within the EU. The definition of a state, a country, and and economic coalition are not up for debate. They are factual terms with actual meanings. There is no "Warrant" to disagree on. The definition of the EU is not a "point of view."

The deeper question is WHY you're trying to assert the link between the US and the EU. What is the position you're trying to support? Are you trying to stake a claim that the US is not an economic superpower? Are you trying to claim that the United States's economy is not the strongest in the world? You started off in this thread saying that "we suck" and holding up China as "a threat." Then you call the states within the US "sovereign states" (they're not). Then you start asserting that the EU "resembles the US in organization." If I had to guess, I'd say you're trying to build support behind an argument that the US is economically weak. But you're not even really driving toward that point... you never really got past bickering about the definition of the EU.

This is why I don't see the point in reasoning with you. Most people have a conversation by stating a central position and then using facts and arguments to support their cause. You don't do that. You swoop into a thread by choosing some detail in another person's post and nitpicking away at it. You don't have a larger, overarching position that you're trying to support. You're not arguing FOR anything, you're just arguing AGAINST something. Arguing for the sake of arguing.

I ignored Teflor because he does the same thing. He picks one line out of a thread and makes up a reason to argue against it. The reason I ignored him and not you is because Teflor is both egregious and aggressive about it... he actively seeks to start fights. He calls people names, and he takes up positions that no rational person could honestly believe just for the sake of starting an emotional confrontation. But now you're starting to do the same thing. Corth wasn't even talking to you for most of this thread, but you're here trying to call him out. And when he cites (factually accurate) sources, you disregard him and continue to press your nonsensical argument.

I will summarize. I'm mostly done arguing with you for two reasons:

1) You don't craft your argument with a central position that is supported by corollary arguments. You like to nitpick details, many of which are irrelevant or immaterial to the topic being discussed.
2) When presented with evidence that your position is incorrect, you refuse to back down from it. There's evidence from this thread, and there's a body of evidence in the stripper thread. You simply continue to advance your position until you're the last one talking. Then the thread ends.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:39 pm

I'll try to get something more later, but your basic point on the EU is that it's not fair to compare it to the US because the CIA and World Bank say so. Sorry if I wanted more than that, but I did. It's a logical fallacy (Appeal to Authority), for one. Yes, I think we should compare the US to the EU on economic terms. In fact, I think that even if the EU isn't a country now it IS heading that way.

As for the rest, you're right. I don't have a central core point here. I just don't think we're as secure economically as we'd like to believe. I don't think Europe is a dirty, evil place ruined by socialism as Kiryan would have us believe. In fact, looking at things in a certain light shows that Europe as a whole is doing better than the US as a whole. Avak wants to look at what is and is not working in Europe vs what is and is not working here... but how do you expect Kiryan and Corth to do so if they refuse to believe Europe is succeeding at all? To them every country in Europe has a far worse economy than we do, and I'm just not sure that's a valid comparison.

You're right that I "nitpick" things, but all too often I see an argument resting on a pillar that seems false. In this case the argument that the US is the strongest economy in the world rests on the assumption that the EU is not an economy in and of itself. I don't think that's valid. The EU is so close in makeup, size, population and wealth to the US that a comparison between the US and EU seems far more valid than one between the US and Germany. Germany's GDP is larger than that of California (our largest GSP) but not by that much.

Oh, and the states in the United States are sovereign by the way. Anything not specified as a federal power in the constitution is reserved for the states. You're right that's not complete sovereignty, but with EU member states having shared laws you can no longer say different about them either.

Ragorn wrote:When presented with evidence that your position is incorrect, you refuse to back down from it. There's evidence from this thread, and there's a body of evidence in the stripper thread.


You're kidding right? You're deciding I'm irrational based on a thread about a girl I'm in love with? Since when has love ever been considered rational? Not to mention that in many ways I agreed with you guys, and said as much, even if I still can't believe there was nothing there.

EDIT: Maybe not more later... I think I covered everything. This was supposed to be a shorter post... sorry.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Ragorn » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:26 pm

Here I go again, getting sucked into the argument.

Sarvis wrote:I'll try to get something more later, but your basic point on the EU is that it's not fair to compare it to the US because the CIA and World Bank say so. Sorry if I wanted more than that, but I did. It's a logical fallacy (Appeal to Authority), for one.

Appeal to Authority only applies when you hold up an argument from an authority figure unrelated to the material you are discussing. If I claimed the USA's GDP was the highest in the world because the Bible said so, that's Appeal to Authority. The CIA Factbook and the World Bank are the actual bodies which compile the statistics to which we are referring. Citing direct sources is not Appeal to Authority, it's proper research.

I don't really know what else to say about this. I'm not going to argue about it with you.

Yes, I think we should compare the US to the EU on economic terms. In fact, I think that even if the EU isn't a country now it IS heading that way.

When it happens, make a thread.

As for the rest, you're right. I don't have a central core point here. I just don't think we're as secure economically as we'd like to believe. I don't think Europe is a dirty, evil place ruined by socialism as Kiryan would have us believe. In fact, looking at things in a certain light shows that Europe as a whole is doing better than the US as a whole. Avak wants to look at what is and is not working in Europe vs what is and is not working here... but how do you expect Kiryan and Corth to do so if they refuse to believe Europe is succeeding at all? To them every country in Europe has a far worse economy than we do, and I'm just not sure that's a valid comparison.

I see you putting a lot of words in a lot of mouths in this paragraph. This thread was originally about the proliferation of sick leave in Belgium. I don't see anything in here where Corth purports that Europe is failing, or that kiryan believes that every country in Europe has a far worse economy than we do. If you want to talk logical fallacies, this paragraph has a whole lot of Straw Man in it. You are inventing a position for the other side and then trying to argue it.

You're right that I "nitpick" things, but all too often I see an argument resting on a pillar that seems false. In this case the argument that the US is the strongest economy in the world rests on the assumption that the EU is not an economy in and of itself.

That's not an assumption, that's a definition. The EU is not an economic entity, and is not treated as such by any demographic organization. If you really, really, REALLY want to push this point, then you could draw a comparison between the EU and NAFTA. I already did the math for you on that, and you'll be very excited... the EU's GDP is marginally higher than NAFTA's.

Oh, and the states in the United States are sovereign by the way. Anything not specified as a federal power in the constitution is reserved for the states. You're right that's not complete sovereignty, but with EU member states having shared laws you can no longer say different about them either.

The definition of a "sovereign state" is a political entity which is not ruled by any higher political authority. By definition, the states in the United States are not sovereign entities because they are presided over by the federal government.

Please.

Please.

PLEASE.

Do not try to argue this too. You will only give me a headache by trying to find counter-examples and exceptions to accepted defintions of words. I don't have the patience to engage in that with you.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:33 pm

Fair enough Rags. You're basically missing my point entirely anyway. Yes I know the EU and the US are not currently compared. I'm saying that they should be. That is all.

By the way, member states of the EU have to follow laws set by the EU...
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Kifle » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:37 pm

Sarvis wrote:By the way, member states of the EU have to follow laws set by the EU...


If a country exits the EU, it remains the same. If a state secedes from the union, it would become it's own country. There's a big difference. The larger governing bodies in both examples are much different. Think of the EU as a club. Analogously, clothing is to body like Germany is to the EU; arm is to body like Indiana is to the US. Furthurmore, while the EU has laws, and the member states don't really have to follow them. They are free to go at any time. The states in the US have a much tighter and stricter dynamic when it comes to laws and leaving the US is close to impossible.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:12 am

Kifle wrote:
Sarvis wrote:By the way, member states of the EU have to follow laws set by the EU...


If a country exits the EU, it remains the same. If a state secedes from the union, it would become it's own country.


Is there really a difference there besides semantics? How does that affect their current economic cooperation? Is their cooperation not as strong as the cooperation between member states of the US for some reason I'm not aware of?

There's a big difference. The larger governing bodies in both examples are much different. Think of the EU as a club. Analogously, clothing is to body like Germany is to the EU; arm is to body like Indiana is to the US. Furthurmore, while the EU has laws, and the member states don't really have to follow them. They are free to go at any time. The states in the US have a much tighter and stricter dynamic when it comes to laws and leaving the US is close to impossible.


Why is leaving the US close to impossible? It's happened before, and was only prevented by war. I'm not so sure about EU member states not having to follow laws set by the EU either. Can you explain a bit more?
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby kiryan » Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:34 am

Corth said it best. The EU can not wield or leverage the power of its member states, the US can, by force and law if necessary. The EU lacks any real power over its member states.

It's possible EU will come together and gradually grow stronger and more like the US federal government.... then again look at the UN... declaration after declaration for what 60 years? and who listens? Hamas? Israel? Iran? North Korea? Zimbabwe? We barely bother to pay our membership dues...

I don't hate Europe or European socialists. I hate everyone who wants to socialize the USA.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:51 am

kiryan wrote:Corth said it best. The EU can not wield or leverage the power of its member states, the US can, by force and law if necessary. The EU lacks any real power over its member states.

It's possible EU will come together and gradually grow stronger and more like the US federal government.... then again look at the UN... declaration after declaration for what 60 years? and who listens? Hamas? Israel? Iran? North Korea? Zimbabwe? We barely bother to pay our membership dues...

I don't hate Europe or European socialists. I hate everyone who wants to socialize the USA.


I'm still not sure how inability to wield the power of their member states translates to their overall economy not being comparabe to ours.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Corth » Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:17 am

Sarvis wrote:I'm still not sure how inability to wield the power of their member states translates to their overall economy not being comparabe to ours.


Because that is what is relevent about ranking GDP in the first place.

When you rank countries by GDP, you are placing them in order of, essentially, economic power. But what use is economic power if you don't have the political authority to use it? If the indvidual member states retain most of that authority, then it makes more sense to rank the individual member states than it does to rank the EU which does not have powers and authority that are commonly held by what we define as a 'country'.

Your comparing economic output of a country against economic output of a continent. Yes, the individual countries within that continent have a treaty to share a currency and harmonize some other aspects of their policy. But it still doesn't smell like a country, look like a country, and most importantly, act like a country. Its apples and oranges.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
oteb
Sojourner
Posts: 432
Joined: Mon May 27, 2002 5:01 am
Location: poland

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby oteb » Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:55 am

Ragorn wrote:The definition of a "sovereign state" is a political entity which is not ruled by any higher political authority. By definition, the states in the United States are not sovereign entities because they are presided over by the federal government.


Going by your definition countries in EU are not sovereign states which of course they are.
Traditionally "sovereign" meant in control of foreign policy and able to wage an outside war.

EU is not a country in a common meaning of the word. Saying its on beginning of a path to get there would be most accurate.
I do agree with Sarvis tho that it should be treated as economic entity. Ability to marshal economic power in case of war is pretty insignificant imo. Most of European countries within EU are part of NATO. In case of war NATO marshals not only economic power of most of Europe but also US.
Other than defense what else constitutes a budget of economic entity? Other than defense is there anything that majorly differs US and EU budget?
You group-say 'who is da red shape?'

A red shape group-says 'I'm a shape'
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:10 am

Corth wrote:
Sarvis wrote:I'm still not sure how inability to wield the power of their member states translates to their overall economy not being comparabe to ours.


Because that is what is relevent about ranking GDP in the first place.


Really? I thought we were talking about quality and efficiency of economies, not who can crush the other guy. Especially given the context in which it was brought up.

Your comparing economic output of a country against economic output of a continent. Yes, the individual countries within that continent have a treaty to share a currency and harmonize some other aspects of their policy. But it still doesn't smell like a country, look like a country, and most importantly, act like a country. Its apples and oranges.


I'd say oranges and tangerines at worst, given the similar composition. Really the only thing that seems to be lacking is a standing army! Actually, you never answed my question.. could the EU declare an embargo that all the member states would enact?
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
oteb
Sojourner
Posts: 432
Joined: Mon May 27, 2002 5:01 am
Location: poland

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby oteb » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:29 am

Sarvis wrote: could the EU declare an embargo that all the member states would enact?


Embargo nope but any customs tariffs are shared so imposing a prohibitive customs is an option.
You group-say 'who is da red shape?'

A red shape group-says 'I'm a shape'
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Corth » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:38 am

Sarvis,

We are not talking about 'quality and efficiency of economies'. or at least I'm not talking about that. GDP doesn't reflect on quality or efficiency. Just on gross output. One of the biggest factors that contribute to GDP is.. population, which is not reflective of quality or efficiency of anything other than the procreative abilities of that people.

I don't really see the point of continuing to argue it. People that know more about the subject than ourselves chose to exclude the EU from the rankings.. and nobody complained!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: time to immigrate to europe

Postby Corth » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:38 am

Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.

Return to “T2 General Discussion Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest