bioethics and how many kids you can have

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bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby kiryan » Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:28 pm

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/WomensHeal ... 355&page=1

SIngle mom, has 6 kids, underwent fertility treatments and gave birth to 8 more. The overall theme is supposedly ethics, particularly focusing on whether it was wise/unwise to implant 8 fetuses at once and the potential risks associated with this kind of pregnancy / low birth weight issues... They don't get too pointed about it, but they go on to essentially ask the question should she have 14 kids. Should she have been allowed to use medical technology to have more kids when she already has 6. Does she have the financial resources, can she give 14 kids the time they need?

I think about this subject alot over the years. On one hand, I'm totally opposed to "welfare moms" who basically have kids don't work and get paid by the government. I'd even expand it to low income people who can't afford the children they have (or choose to do other things instead like drink beer). All this does is increase the burden on the rest of society. On the other hand, I sure as hell don't want the government or bioethicists telling me I have too many kids (I have 5 presently, 6 is on the way and expect to at least have 1 more).

As I think about this, it comes back to the incentives provided by the government. If the government wasn't paying for all these kids (directly or indirectly) then it would be none of their business and everyone would be free to pursue happiness as they wish (1,3,10,14 kids at a time). Instead we do pay for them. We give tax breaks, we provide education, we feed them, we provide healthcare... Is that what we want to do? Poor people tend to grow up and be poor further adding to the cycle...

In the same manner that if the government is going to bail out the banks/economy when it fails then it has an obligation to regulate. If the government is going to bail out poor people who have too many kids or make poor choices then they have to regulate. Is this really where you all want to go? Government regulating your personal choices because it is paying for them (with your money)?

For me it all comes back to the problem being the government subsidies in the first place.... back to that you don't have to be responsible or make good choices becaues the government is there to prop you up. If government wasn't paying / providing all these services, then they'd have no obligation / responsibility to regulate and be involved. Government regulation is good you say? I suppose that depends whether you are the majority or the minority.

Lets talk about gays who are just now getting the right to marry. Why should the government care whether two people get "married". Obviously they have to care because of all the ramifications to government programs from social services to adoption to insurance payouts to taxes... When will we start talking about polygamists having the right to live their lifestyles legally?

Now I realize that the reason gays and polygamists has been objected too is from religious grounds, but I'm arguing that this is a political debate because government stepped into regulate in the first place and have to continue to do so because of all the ramifications to government provided services. If we didn't have all these services... all these regulatory requirements, we could just leave it up to individuals' choice.

so whats my point, not sure just musings.
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby ssar » Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:22 am

Earth is already overpopulated.

2 kids maximum per couple is good.
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby kiryan » Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:48 am

Where does government get the right to decide whether or not you are allowed to reproduce or how many times?

Maybe we should only allow smart people, free from genetic defects in their family history to reproduce... I think Hitler tried that...
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby Pril » Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:39 am

This is going to sound a little cold but you should be able to have as many kids as you can support. If you can't support a kid then you need not be having them. Not sure of a good solution for it but should be like that.
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:03 am

Pril wrote:This is going to sound a little cold but you should be able to have as many kids as you can support. If you can't support a kid then you need not be having them. Not sure of a good solution for it but should be like that.


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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby Ashiwi » Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:43 pm

In my little dream world people are implanted with permanent birth control at birth, then they have to prove they can hold a job and be responsible before they're allowed to have children.

That's why it's called a "dream world."

Barring that solution, I'd pay welfare mothers cash up front to have themselves sterilized. I don't believe we should mandate how many kids somebody should be able to have if they're capable of supporting them, but when people are really too stupid to be allowed to breed, what's the solution?
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby Corth » Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:12 pm

Rather than give them cash up front as Ashiwi suggests, I would withhold cash on the back end. In a certain segment of society, gaming the system by having kids is considered a profession. The taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for it.. plain and simple, and guess what, if they didn't, these kids wouldn't be born in the first place. I -would- leave one last option.. giving the baby up permanently as a ward of the state. If you can't feed clothe and shelter them, you either voluntarily give them up, or a court orders you to. You lose parental rights which is good because if you can't afford to keep your baby fed, clothed, and sheltered, you don't deserve to be a parent. (cue sarvis).
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby Gormal » Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:32 pm

I agree with forcing people to give up their children if they're having more when they can't afford to support them. I also believe in criminalizing having kids when you can't support them.
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby Sarvis » Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:40 pm

Corth wrote: (cue sarvis).


I just think it's funny the Libertarian is advocating laws restricting freedom.
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby Tasan » Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:47 pm

kiryan wrote:As I think about this, it comes back to the incentives provided by the government. If the government wasn't paying for all these kids (directly or indirectly) then it would be none of their business and everyone would be free to pursue happiness as they wish (1,3,10,14 kids at a time). Instead we do pay for them. We give tax breaks, we provide education, we feed them, we provide healthcare... Is that what we want to do? Poor people tend to grow up and be poor further adding to the cycle...


This woman isn't on welfare, not quite sure why you are acting like we're paying to bring up these children. Directly or indirectly all children are raised by society when you get down to it. Some receive more aid than others, same as adults.

The only issue is ethical. A woman that's already given birth to 6 children asking for, and receiving, fertilization treatments.
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby kiryan » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:41 am

I know shes not on welfare, but here is where I'm coming from.

55% of the Oregon budget goes to education
Kids are a great tax deduction

also, she may be the exception... if bioethicists are wondering whether she should have 14 kids... or rather straight out saying she shouldn't... Imagine what they and people in general would say if she was on welfare. I mean I think its pretty clear that people believe there should be a limit on the # of kids you can have... Where do they get the right to tell you how many kids you can have? Or what the minimum standard is for a kid?

I've got 6 kids, I don't spend nearly what experts say it costs to raise children. I think I give my children a much better than average life.
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby kiryan » Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:39 am

I guess after testing the waters they've decided to be more direct about it.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/01/30/em ... index.html

--

This is an outrageous situation that should not happen.

selective reduction is not the same as traditional abortion

Rosenthal, on the other hand, questions the woman's capacity to make a good decision under the circumstances. Some neonatologists believe that when pregnant women are told about dangers of prematurity or have great expectations about giving birth, their judgment can be impaired, she said.

The situation raises the issue of whether a doctor ought to override a patient's wishes for the sake of saving lives, she said. Although the health care system in America gives patients autonomy in making decisions about their own bodies, when emotionally distraught, some people decide poorly, she said.

Even with triplets, a doctor would be "remiss if [he] didn't tell a woman with triplets about selective fetal reduction,

--

I wish you people were half as shocked as I am. I guess I'm not really that shocked, because no one seems to bat an eye as government exerts more and more control over our lives. It is astonishing that they are basically saying we have the responsibility to terminate pregnancies which we deem are risky because the pregnant mother may be "distraught". Maybe we should apply that in a reverse fashion. We have a responsibility to refuse to terminate pregnancies because the pregnant mother may be distraught. There is a shit ton of evidence that women who undergo abortion have emotional issues, guild issues, all kinds of issues tied directly to the procedure. Lets also apply this notion that we are going to save lives by forcing abortions to we are goign to save lives to denying abortions.

"The babies didn't put themselves there; it's not their fault," George said. "There does seem to be a serious ethical question about killing one or more of them, even for the sake of maternal health."
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby kwirl » Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:19 am

My personal position has always been that people should be given some form of, not sterilization, but reproductive suppression through genetic means where upon reaching some form of legal age and passing a test, they are then given a license and some form of counteracting agent that would 'toggle on' the ability to reproduce.

you need to take classes, get a license, show some form of competence to drive a car. you have to wait until the age of 18 to sign a legally binding contract. you can't drink alcohol until the age of 21. yet at the age of 12 an insecure girl with poor parenting can take that lack of self esteem and have as many children as her incompetent parents decide to house in their home. until of course she turns 16, drops out of school, and decides to raise her 4 year old fatherless child in some neighborhood where she can sell pot for clothes and have sex to pay her rent.
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby Ambar » Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:58 am

Kiryan I doubt you are in the average if you can afford a 62 inch plasma TV AND house/clothe/feed 3 step and eventually 4 blood children, I recall years ago you saying you wanted 7 kids, not sure if that number has gone up, your choice if you can afford them :) Sounds like the school aged ones are all doing well in school, I am sure some measure is in place for their formal education as well .. props to you, props to Vena for carrying all those kids! .. my 2 were plenty for me! Can't imagine many more asking for money and other bailouts! You guys planning a Kiryan/Vena reality show any time soon? Next on, Mike plus eight!

Baby factories make me ill .. that 29 year old from another thread with 10 kids? Come on .. Even I, as old as I am had sex ed in elementary school, around age 11 or 12 ..most of us went to school til we were at least 12 ... We KNOW where babies come from yet we procreate then say "well this is all I know"

Some sort of regulatory measures should be placed.. Then again can we deny the already welfare/ SSI momma more money when she spits out yet another child? And who gets to play god and say "this one can have kids, that one can't" .. etc
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby avak » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:42 pm

First of all, I think it would be worthwhile for some people here that are constantly citing the welfare boogeyman to read up on the current state of affairs. While certainly far from perfect, the 1996 welfare reform act has done a lot to address the problems that are highlighted in this thread.
The Congressional findings in Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act highlighted dependency, out-of-wedlock birth, and intergenerational poverty as the main contributors to a faulty system. In instituting a block grant program, PRWORA granted states the ability to design their own systems, as long as states met a set of basic federal requirements. The bill's primary requirements and effects included:

* Ending welfare as an entitlement program;
* Requiring recipients to begin working after two years of receiving benefits;
* Placing a lifetime limit of five years on benefits paid by federal funds;
* Aiming to encourage two-parent families and discouraging out-of-wedlock births.

So, instead of trying to tackle ridiculous ethical questions about who can have babies and who can't (might be a quieter place around here had those laws been in effect 30 years ago), how about we just continue to work on welfare reform and poverty eradication.

The fact of the matter is that this country was founded on freedom. People are always going to game the system...they do it everywhere, but especially at the ends of the spectrum (the rich and the poor). It used to be that big families were held in fairly high regard...my grandmother is one of thirteen children that came up through the Depression...you know the stories...one pair of shoes, questions about how much food there would be...used to be 'character-building.'
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby kiryan » Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:23 pm

I'm with avak, but I'll add this. If there was no "system" to game, then you wouldn't have to raise taxes to pay for it and continuously "reform" it.

There are even more articles coming out on this woman, and they are talking about how she is obsessed with children and having children. Now I think its pretty obvious that shes compensating for something... she reminds me of my mother in law who gave up alcholol and went on a religious / have as many kids as you can kick. She's 51, has 9 children, and is still trying to have more kids. To some degree I know that I am personally compensating for not having a large extended family and for a desire to be unique and get attention. Its not normal.

Should we throw either of these women or me into a psych ward or into counseling to figure out whats wrong with us? Do we have the right to force them to have abortions because society thinks that 8 at once is too many or 14 total is too many? Are you reading what these expert... bioethicists... are saying? Make no mistake, these guys will be the "experts" that are consulted to set government policy. The thought that a woman who is pregnant may be emotionally unbalanced and unable to make the "proper" decision is quite telling.

I just can't believe how many people think that we should tell other people what to do in their personal, used to be private, lives. It literally should not be any of your business how many kids someone has.
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby Gormal » Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:59 pm

If you're going to take that attitude, then give back your tax breaks for having extra children and I'll consider them none of my business. Pay extra taxes for the school seats they take up using everyone else's taxes. There's nothing private or personal about participating in a community.
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:25 am

Is that the America you believe in? An America where the government tells you what you can do?

If I could give back my tax credits and the government would leave me alone, I would strongly consider it. As it stands now, I'm not stupid enough to give back any advantages that they are willing to give me based on principle or to gain the right to tell you to stuff it. I'll take every deduction and credit I can, and every one I think I can get away with and receive every service I am entitled to.
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby Gormal » Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:05 am

Sorry, certain things should be illegal and trying to label it as some kind of commie plot to take away your freedom is strawmanning and you know it. I'm talking about the criminal negligence of having more children then you can support, because its unfair to the child, and its unfair to the rest of the taxpayers. Where in the constitution does it say "the right to be a burden on society"?
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:47 pm

I'm surprised that no one has come to the conclusion that couples that have good genetics and compatibility should have as many children as they can, while couples with bad genetics should avoid the process. That would seem to be bio-ethical.
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:36 pm

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Its there right after the right to health insurance, a warm place to live, a car, foodstamps and a little pocket money for ciggarettes and booze.

I don't care if I am strawmanning or not. I have a real problem with society deciding how many children you can have based on what society deems is appropriate.

The bill of rights and constitution was supposed to protect us from the tyranny of the majority. You are not supposed to be able to get 51% of people together and strip away your rights. I mean.. isn't that the whole argument of roe vs wade? A woman has an inherent right to privacy? Except when shes pregnant with 8 fetuses and may be "distraught and emotionally unstable" and not making "good" decisions.
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:43 pm

There's nothing wrong with the use of social influence and pressure within the bounds of the law.

Booing someone is not a violation of their freedom of speech, even if it does encourage someone else to shoot them.

That's on the shooter, not the Boo-er.
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby Gormal » Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:54 pm

Having more children when you can't afford to support them is child abuse, and is criminal. Child abuse is not a protected right based on the pursuit of happiness. You're looking at the issue purely from the perspective of someone who wants a huge family. What about protecting the rights of the rest of society from being burdened by baby-crazy people's happiness? What about the rights of those children people are forcing to grow up in squalor?

You have the right to free speech, but you can't run into your work shouting NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER without getting fired. Its your right to bear arms, but private citizens can't just run out and buy assault weapons and explosives. Your rights have limits and all I'm talking about is imposing a limit on people's right to procreate based on financial circumstances.
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby avak » Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:12 pm

The problem is that someone's ability to financially support their children is subjective. That's why a judge presides over child support hearings. All sorts of 'intangible' stuff comes in to play.

So, you can't have a large family because of some ivory tower determination of financial suitability based on adjusted gross income??? Unfortunately, a family's earnings do not correlate directly to the standard of living of the children in the household. Poor kids can have awesome families and rich kids can have shitty ones.

I completely agree with Kiryan on this one. I think many people are barking up the wrong tree. No one wants to see the gov't subsidize a so-called 'baby factory.' So, reform the system to prevent that and leave people's personal choices alone.
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:42 am

imo, how many kids you have is none of the government's business... until they can prove that there is child abuse. You don't go and say having 14 kids is automatic child abuse and criminal negligence.

Best I can tell there is no evidence that this woman isn't a phenomenal mother. The only criticism I've read so far is that 1) she's not married 2) that shes nutty for having 14 children. Yet the bioethicists are coalescing around a position that says 14 children is too many and 8 at a time is too many. That if you are sane you won't have that many kids or choose not to have that many at once. I love the logic that 8 embyros at once is too many... and to prevent some from dieing, we'll kill some others.

I can cite several examples of familes that have between 9 and 17 children where the children are not neglected or abused and do in fact love their life and thrive. Theres a TV show or some reality clips about a family with 18 kids under 18. For a while I believe they had the whole family sleeping in one room, dormitory style. There is that discorvery program, john and kate + 8 (twins then 6 at once).
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby Gormal » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:57 am

Gormal: argues about poor people having kids they can't afford.

Kiryan: points at large families with good incomes.

:facepalm;


Avak: As for being subjective I totally agree, and to a certain degree these types of people are already having children taken from them for their own protection. I suppose it'd be more of an addendum to current laws surrounding child neglect and such. I don't think its possible to assign any sort of value of $/kid, but cracking down on people sends a more positive message.

Who's a bigger barbarian: the convicted sex offender who when 18 had sex with a 16 year old, or the mom living in a trailer with 12 kids in filth, Kiryan? I get it, you want to have a huge family, more power to you. I'm not talking about you though.
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby Gormal » Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:00 am

Bumping this as I forgot to earlier. The original woman in this thread was found to be on food stamps when she was trying to get pregnant and social security, yeah fuck that shit.

New article about her awesome doctor, with some nice quotes on bioethics in it:

http://www.latimes.com/features/health/medicine/la-me-octuplets13-2009feb13,0,457763.story
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby kiryan » Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:57 pm

I'd have to know the parameters of "filth" before I would dare answer that question, but I will say this. If we are going to take kids away from a loving mother, who has found a way to support her kids (living off her mom and the state), then I want to take kids away from parents who allow them to go through school getting D's and F's. In all the child devel, psych and juvenile deliquency classes, the #1 most important thing was loving and caring parents. Oh and I'm sure she is going to get literally rich off of this, you'd be surprised how much money people donate to plain stupid causes.

My wife's mom belongs to a "have as many babys as you can" church. Most of them live under the poverty line and still tithe 10% (gross) to church. They give their kids loving homes and emphasize education. Most of these people also are not on any state / federal programs. I calculated once that I could live and support my family on $10 an hour. As a matter of fact, I currently spend less than $1,500 a month supporting my family; probably less than $1,000.

And I take issue with the claims that the woman is abusing the system. She is using the system exactly as it was intended and she isn't even taking advantage of everything to which she is entitled like HUD. The mission of DHS groups is to get EVERYONE on EVERY program they are QUALIFIED for. I mean we just voted to give all kids free healthcare, what makes her kids different? We expanded WIC and food stamps over the years for what? So people without enough money could feed their families. Are we going to apply these "too many kids" rules to the food aid we give people in Africa, Palestine, Zimbabwe or just people here in the US that you think shouldn't have that many kids?

You guys are the tyranny of the majority that our government is supposed to be protecting us from. It should be none of our business, but you guys continue to expand government subsidies and programs then control over private lives because you feel like you have that right if you are paying for it.
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Re: bioethics and how many kids you can have

Postby kiryan » Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:10 am

If you think this shit is outrageous, you should take a look at the expansion in social security disability claims and grants. I knew a woman who ran a hotel catering to basically people trying to get on ssi disability. Dozens of these people who SHOULD be able to work and get a job, but because of their attitudes/upbringings or drug/alcohol addictions they were deemed "unemployable". Hell one of the hardest working most capable people I know is on SSI disability predominately because he can't keep a job due to his problems with authority. So do we let him starve? He's got plenty of experts who lined up to testify that he is unemployable.

My cousin had 2 retarded kids and she was using them as a paycheck so she could go party and screw. She didn't give a rats ass about those kids except that they were a paycheck. Thank god she made the bad decision to tell CPS that she could have a sex offender boyfriend and they couldn't do nothing about it.

I'm far more outraged by this kind of stuff than this lady popping out 14 babies... who is going to school to get her masters degree. At least she is trying to better herself and by all accounts loves her kids very much. If we create a psychological diagnosis and say that she suffers from xyz, would it make you feel better? I mean we got "unemployable" people getting free money, why not people with psychological "problems" that causes them to want to have 14 kids?

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