how prison should be

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amena wolfsnarl
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how prison should be

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:10 am

SHERIFF JOE IS AT IT AGAIN!



You all remember Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Arizona , who painted the jail cells pink and made the inmates wear pink prison garb. Well.........



SHERIFF JOE IS AT IT AGAIN!

Oh, there's MUCH more to know about Sheriff Joe!

Maricopa County was spending approx. $18 million dollars a year on stray animals, like cats and dogs. Sheriff Joe offered to take the department over, and the County Supervisors said okay.

The animal shelters are now all staffed and operated by prisoners. They feed and care for the strays. Every animal in his care is taken out and walked twice daily. He now has prisoners who are experts in animal nutrition and behavior. They give great classes for anyone who'd like to adopt an animal. He has literally taken stray dogs off the street, given them to the care of prisoners, and had them place in dog shows.

The best part? His budget for the entire department is now under $3 million. Teresa and I adopted a Weimaraner from a Maricopa County shelter two years ago. He was neutered, and current on all shots, in great health, and even had a microchip inserted the day we got him. Cost us $78.

The prisoners get the benefit of about $0.28 an hour for working, but most would work for free, just to be out of their cells for the day. Most of his budget is for utilities, building maintenance, etc. He pays the prisoners out of the fees collected for adopted animals.

I have long wondered when the rest of the country would take a look at the way he runs the jail system, and copy some of his ideas. He has a huge farm, donated to the county years ago, where inmates can work, and they grow most of their own fresh vegetables and food, doing all the work and harvesting by hand.

He has a pretty good sized hog farm, which provides meat, and fertilizer. It fertilizes the Christmas tree nursery, where prisoners work, and you can buy a living Christmas tree for $6 - $8 for the Holidays, and plant it later. We have six trees in our yard from the Prison.

Yup, he was reelected last year with 83% of the vote.


Now he's in trouble with the ACLU again.. He painted all his buses and vehicles with a mural, that has a special hotline phone number painted on it, where you can call and report suspected illegal aliens. Immigrations and Customs Enforcement wasn't doing enough in his eyes, so he had 40 deputies trained specifically for enforcing immigration laws, started up his hotline, and bought 4 new buses just for hauling folks back to the border. He's kind of a 'Git-R Dun' kind of Sheriff.

TO THOSE OF YOU NOT FAMILIAR WITH JOE ARPAIO

HE IS THE MARICOPA ARIZONA COUNTY SHERIFF

AND HE KEEPS GETTING ELECTED OVER AND OVER
THIS IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY:

Sheriff Joe Arpaio (In Arizona ) who created the ' Tent City Jail':
He has jail meals down to 40 cents a serving and charges the inmates for them.

He stopped smoking and porno magazines in the jails. Took away their weights. Cut off all but 'G' movies.

He started chain gangs so the inmates could do free work on county and city projects.

Then he started chain gangs for women so he wouldn't get sued for discrimination.

He took away cable TV Until he found out there was A Federal Court Order that required cable TV for jails. So he hooked up the cable TV again only let in the Disney Channel and The Weather Channel.

When asked why the weather channel he replied, So they will know how hot it's gonna be while they are working on my chain gangs.

He cut off coffee since it has zero nutritional value.

When the inmates complained, he told them, 'This isn't the Ritz/Carlton.... if you don't like it, don't come back.'


More On The Arizona Sheriff:

With Temperatures Being Even Hotter Than Usual In Phoenix (116 Degrees Just Set A New Record), the Associated Press Reports:
About 2,000 Inmates Living In A Barbed-Wire-Surrounded Tent Encampment At The Maricopa County Jail Have Been Given Permission To Strip Down To Their Government-Issued Pink Boxer Shorts.

On Wednesday, hundreds of men wearing boxers were either curled up on their bunk beds or chatted in the tents, which reached 138 Degrees Inside The Week Before.

Many Were Also Swathed In Wet, Pink Towels As Sweat Collected On Their Chests And Dripped Down To Their PINK SOCKS.

'It Feels Like We Are In A Furnace,' Said James Zanzot, An Inmate Who Has Lived In The TENTS for 1 year. 'It's Inhumane.'

Joe Arpaio, the tough-guy sheriff who created the tent city and long ago started making his prisoners wear pink, and eat bologna sandwiches, is not one bit sympathetic. He said Wednesday that he told all of the inmates: 'It's 120 Degrees In Iraq And Our Soldiers Are Living In Tents Too, And They Have To Wear Full Battle Gear, But They Didn't Commit Any Crimes, So Shut Your Mouths!'

Way To Go, Sheriff!

Maybe if all prisons were like this one there would be a lot less crime and/or repeat offenders. Criminals should be punished for their crimes - not live in luxury until it's time for their parole, only to go out and commit another crime so they can get back in to live on taxpayers money and enjoy things taxpayers can't afford to have for themselves.

This is an email i got, this guy makes pretty damn good sense to me.
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Re: how prison should be

Postby Ragorn » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:26 am

That's awesome, if you believe the idea that committing a crime makes it ok for you to be treated inhumanely.
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Re: how prison should be

Postby kiryan » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:45 am

He sounds like he can get things done and has the right attitude. I think he's probably taking some risks that are going to burn him one of these days. Maybe a prisoner will die from heat stroke or something. Or maybe he'll get to arrogant and cross the line. Hard to say.

I like the idea of prisoners working... but I have concerns anytime the government gets into business and especially when they employ slave labor. I mean I love what he did with the animal shelter, reduced the budget from 18 million to 3 million... thats great. I'd prefer if we didn't have an animal shelter and we just put them down instead. I'm sure quite a bit of it is because he's running a more efficient more focused business, but the rest is essentially making money on slave labor... I know its done all over, I know its always been done, but it always makes me think carefully.

I mean what if we start using prison labor to pick the fields, or do landscaping, or build houses for the poor... Not only do you have an incentive to put more people in prison, but you have a competitive advantage in competing with the private sector... you don't pay minimum wage. I'm not saying its wrong, I'm just concerned about where it can lead.
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Re: how prison should be

Postby Kifle » Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:08 am

I thought it was good until the second to last paragraph. I'm sorry, but I'd like to toss all those retards that say things along the lines of "inmates live in luxury..." It is by far the most ignorant and annoying comment I hear on a regular basis. It'd be great to see those retards tossed in a prison for a week and see how luxurious it really is.
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Re: how prison should be

Postby Corth » Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:02 am

Man, I hope my governor Patterson doesn't hear about this. What a great way to close the budget gap. Next thing you know I'll be doing hard time for not wearing my seatbelt or something..
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Re: how prison should be

Postby kwirl » Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:07 am

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Re: how prison should be

Postby Gormal » Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:28 am

You know what Ragorn, if you consider this inhumane you are going as far left as Kiryan is right. You should see how many service members have to live while deployed. These people committed crimes and were convicted by our justice system and sentenced to punishment. They're being fed, clothed, sheltered, and cared for. What I really want to know is how is the rehabilitation rate for this system?
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Re: how prison should be

Postby Sarvis » Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:42 pm

Ragorn wrote:That's awesome, if you believe the idea that committing a crime makes it ok for you to be treated inhumanely.


I dunno, it's not all bad. At least the prisoners are learning some actual skills they can use when getting out. Well, on the animal shelter thing anyway. I'd like to see their pay be a little higher, and stuck into a savings account or something so they have some resources when they get out too.

I'm with Gormal on wanting to know the recidivism rate in this guys area, but I'm too lazy to look it up right now.
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Re: how prison should be

Postby kwirl » Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:04 pm

http://www.arpaio.com/arpaio-truth/index.php

Sheriff Joe Arpaio: He built the tent city jail because of overcrowding in the regular jails.

Truth: To insure there were enough inmates for the much publicized tent city jail he closed an entire floor of the First Avenue Jail.

Sheriff Joe Arpaio: He has saved the taxpayers millions of dollars.

Truth: He has cost the taxpayers millions of dollars in legal fees, lawsuits, attorneys fees, settlements, judgments, photographs of himself, videos of himself, and maintaining his personal public relations staff.


According to wiki, his crime measures include -
    Making people register bicycles
    fingerprinting children
    giving cellular phones to victims of domestic abuse

He is also the star of an upcoming FOX reality TV show called 'Smile, you're under arrest!'

He used taxpayer money to run an 'Inmate Idol' knock-off of the TV show 'American Idol', used the 'pink underwear' gimmick as a marketing ploy to raise money selling pink underwear branded with the department logo (after being accused of misuse of funds from this 'fundraising' he refuses to provide public accounting records of this), uses the 'pink underwear' gimmick to support his book deal.

He has been the subject of thousands of lawsuits, 50 times the number of lawsuits filed in New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Houston jail systems combined. The taxpayers pay for his defense in these lawsuits.

Comparing recidivism rates under Arpaio to those under his predecessor, studies found "there was no significant difference in recidivism observed between those offenders released in 1989-1990 and those released in 1994-1995."


Family members of inmates who have died or been injured in jail custody have filed lawsuits against the sheriff’s office. Maricopa County has paid more than $43 million in settlement claims during Arpaio's tenure.

He has never debated an opponent during an election cycle, and instead relies on his conglomerate of media and publicity hounds. He has arrested and harassed local reporters who run negative pieces about his work.

Yeah, I can see how modeling our entire prison system after this guy is a great idea.
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Re: how prison should be

Postby Thilindel » Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:08 pm

Ragorn wrote:That's awesome, if you believe the idea that committing a crime makes it ok for you to be treated inhumanely.


Wondering what the list of crimes it takes to be there. If they're pedophiles, rapists, DUI/DWI's and other categoric social filth, then awesome..
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Re: how prison should be

Postby Sarvis » Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:10 pm

Thilindel wrote:
Ragorn wrote:That's awesome, if you believe the idea that committing a crime makes it ok for you to be treated inhumanely.


Wondering what the list of crimes it takes to be there. If they're pedophiles, rapists, DUI/DWI's and other categoric social filth, then awesome..


Because rapists are exactly as evil as a guy who had one too many at the bar one night...
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Re: how prison should be

Postby kwirl » Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:10 pm

Sheriff Joe Arpaio: He built the tent city jail because of overcrowding in the regular jails.

Truth: To insure there were enough inmates for the much publicized tent city jail he closed an entire floor of the First Avenue Jail.
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Re: how prison should be

Postby Ragorn » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:25 pm

Gormal wrote:You know what Ragorn, if you consider this inhumane you are going as far left as Kiryan is right. You should see how many service members have to live while deployed. These people committed crimes and were convicted by our justice system and sentenced to punishment. They're being fed, clothed, sheltered, and cared for. What I really want to know is how is the rehabilitation rate for this system?

The conditions that service members live under are completely irrelevant. First, you CHOSE to join the military. Second, just because someone in Iraq has it WORSE, doesn't mean that this is also FUCKING STUPID.

What the chain email forgot to mention is that Joe Arpaio managed to cut the food budget down to 40 cents per inmate by only feeding them two meals a day, and by feeding them the lowest quality food permitted by federal law. Housing someone outside in 120 degree heat and feeding them two bologna sandwiches a day is inhumane. Period.

Of course, if you believe that CRIMINALS ARE EVIL AND SHOULD BE PUNISHED AS HARSHLY AS POSSIBLE, then I'm sure you love this guy. For the rest of us, he's a fuckwit.
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Re: how prison should be

Postby Ragorn » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:27 pm

Thilindel wrote:
Ragorn wrote:That's awesome, if you believe the idea that committing a crime makes it ok for you to be treated inhumanely.


Wondering what the list of crimes it takes to be there. If they're pedophiles, rapists, DUI/DWI's and other categoric social filth, then awesome..

And if it's pot possession, unpaid parking tickets, or disorderly conduct?

Interesting that you put DUI and rape into the same category.
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Re: how prison should be

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:28 pm

From wha i heard the repeat offender rate for people coming out of his jail is just 2% the lowest in the country. As far as im concerned he is doing everything that he needs to for the inmates he feeds clothes and shelters them. They committed the crime and they shouldnt have it easy. I dont doubt that regular prison is tough, but lets face regular jails arent cutting people are returning to them on an increasing basis. He might be a little too old school and that will probably bite him in the ass one day but in the mean time hes getting the job done, and hes doing it better than anyone else out there.
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Re: how prison should be

Postby Gormal » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:34 pm

If its truly as stark as 120degree heat with 2 sandwiches all the time then yes, that's wrong. Something tells me thats a bit of an exaggeration or the exception to the norm. However, thats a specific offense you're levelling rather than a blanket lolinhumane statement against the entire program.
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Re: how prison should be

Postby kwirl » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:50 pm

amena wolfsnarl wrote:From wha i heard the repeat offender rate for people coming out of his jail is just 2% the lowest in the country. As far as im concerned he is doing everything that he needs to for the inmates he feeds clothes and shelters them. They committed the crime and they shouldnt have it easy. I dont doubt that regular prison is tough, but lets face regular jails arent cutting people are returning to them on an increasing basis. He might be a little too old school and that will probably bite him in the ass one day but in the mean time hes getting the job done, and hes doing it better than anyone else out there.



No, he isn't.

Comparing recidivism rates under Arpaio to those under his predecessor, the study found "there was no significant difference in recidivism

From 2004 through November 2007, Arpaio was the target of 2,150 lawsuits in U.S. District Court and hundreds more in Maricopa County courts; 50 times as many prison-conditions lawsuits as the New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Houston jail systems combined.


And these aren't just frivolous lawsuits, taxpayers of his region have spent over 40 MILLION dollars of their money on settlements, plus god knows how much on the basic legal costs that come with almost three thousand lawsuits. This guy is an idiot, and the people who buy into his chain-mail brigade recruiting tactics are idiots, too.
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Re: how prison should be

Postby Gormal » Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:03 pm

Lets apply some Obama-ness to Sheriff Joe: Hope for the future of America's Prison system!

Look now those millions spent are justified.
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Re: how prison should be

Postby Ragorn » Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:12 pm

Gormal wrote:Lets apply some Obama-ness to Sheriff Joe: Hope for the future of America's Prison system!

Look now those millions spent are justified.

Worthless comment imo
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Re: how prison should be

Postby Gormal » Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:36 pm

Worthless thread imo
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Re: how prison should be

Postby Sarvis » Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:42 pm

Gormal wrote:Worthless thread imo


Yes, anything that generates discussion on the the discussion forums is worthless.
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Re: how prison should be

Postby Botef » Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:44 pm

its
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Re: how prison should be

Postby Raiwen » Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:52 pm

Gormal wrote:Worthless thread imo

Image
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Re: how prison should be

Postby Xisiqomelir » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:11 am

I live in AZ.

Joe Arpaio hates Mexicans and black people. This is really indisputable (unless Joe Arpaio saying "I am not a racist" is sufficient evidence to the contrary by your standards).
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Re: how prison should be

Postby kiryan » Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:36 am

its pretty damn hot in AZ. My favorite story is I rolled up into Phoenix at about 9pm to see an old friend and it was 107 degrees. I left his house at around midnight and it was 111 degrees.

I think leaving them out there in 130 degree weather is probably inhumane... but their basic needs are being taken care of, so I'm not sure. Do we have a right to air conditioning now? Temperatures of < 100 degrees?

--

I would like to add that I think putting prisoners to work taking care of animals is a great idea. The interaction with pets may help them be more compassionate to their fellow human beings or simply give them a sense of responsibility as well as "love" that they may have been missing...
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Re: how prison should be

Postby Sarvis » Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:41 am

kiryan wrote:its pretty damn hot in AZ. My favorite story is I rolled up into Phoenix at about 9pm to see an old friend and it was 107 degrees. I left his house at around midnight and it was 111 degrees.

I think leaving them out there in 130 degree weather is probably inhumane... but their basic needs are being taken care of, so I'm not sure. Do we have a right to air conditioning now? Temperatures of < 100 degrees?


Aren't temperatures that high a little bit deadly for humans?

--

I would like to add that I think putting prisoners to work taking care of animals is a great idea. The interaction with pets may help them be more compassionate to their fellow human beings or simply give them a sense of responsibility as well as "love" that they may have been missing...


Ugh... what is this world coming to? I agree with Kiryan about something...
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Re: how prison should be

Postby kiryan » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:28 am

I would've thought so, but apparently its not or this "report" is exaggerated. Probably depends on how hydrated you are too.

I packed seed in 95-105 degree weather one summer and I was carrying 40-60 pound bags of seed 45+ minutes per hour in dust thicker than fog with a face mask on. I didn't die, wasn't even really hot after the first week. You get used to it. To tell you the truth, the dust was the worst part. IT did have one hell of an effect on my drinking habits, I was an exclusive mountain dew drinker, but this farmer only bought Coke. From that summer on, I salivate when I think of an ice cold Coke and I can't stand warm mountain dew anymore.
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Re: how prison should be

Postby Tasan » Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:48 pm

External temperature isn't what kills, it's internal. Raise your body's heat to 105 and you're going to be able to do 1/4 what you could at normal temp. Raise it to 110 for more than a few minutes and you risk permanent damage to the brain.

As long as your body can sweat, you're provided plenty of water and your core temp doesn't get above 100... you'll do fine.
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Re: how prison should be

Postby Thilindel » Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:55 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Thilindel wrote:
Ragorn wrote:That's awesome, if you believe the idea that committing a crime makes it ok for you to be treated inhumanely.


Wondering what the list of crimes it takes to be there. If they're pedophiles, rapists, DUI/DWI's and other categoric social filth, then awesome..

And if it's pot possession, unpaid parking tickets, or disorderly conduct?

Interesting that you put DUI and rape into the same category.


Because my sister, as she was crossing the street to school, was killed by a drunk driver ...Any adult has the chance to reflect what they're doing. Just how long do police have to say 'don't drink and drive.' Hindsight is 20/20. Blah blah. A three year old is told to not touch the hot stove, because the child doesn't have the wisdom to know better. To keep drinking is quite obvious to those around, and the drinker, that enough SHOULD be enough. - that's not lacking wisdom. That's pathetic. Drunk driving is the same as randomly shooting into a crowd..and hoping for the best.

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If _any_ one here lost a child, sibling, parent, etc to a drunk driver, I'm thinking their views and naive 'oh they're harmless' would quickly dissolve.

But as for people with pot, or forgotten speeding tickets..fighting or whatnot, being outside in the situation as explained seems _way_ extreme.
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Re: how prison should be

Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:24 pm

I hope he's locked up for the rest of his life Thilindel.

I would prefer that DUI/DWI laws be eliminated and it be handled as an aggravating factor to an actual crime. Make people responsible for their mistakes, not establish elaborate systems of enforcement to ensure that people don't make a mistake.
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Re: how prison should be

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:58 pm

Ragorn wrote:That's awesome, if you believe the idea that committing a crime makes it ok for you to be treated inhumanely.


And how exactly are they being treated inhumanely? I could accept this logic if there were any deaths or horrific injuries inflicted... or hell, even a pattern of hospitalizations, that are inconsistent with other jails.

Haven't heard that they're worse than other jails yet. Keep it up with the babbling though.
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Re: how prison should be

Postby Corth » Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:22 am

Not entirely related but this is one of the most disgusting things I have read recently.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: how prison should be

Postby Sarvis » Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:09 am

Corth wrote:Not entirely related but this is one of the most disgusting things I have read recently.



Agreed, but what can you expect when you make greed a virtue?
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Re: how prison should be

Postby Corth » Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:15 am

Greed is virtuous so long as you don't break society's laws. The entrepeneur is rightfully applauded, as the thief is shunned.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: how prison should be

Postby Sarvis » Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:17 am

Corth wrote:Greed is virtuous so long as you don't break society's laws. The entrepeneur is rightfully applauded, as the thief is shunned.


People just don't work that way. You can't glorify a behavior then put a limit on it.

Besides, it's not just the judges being greedy here. It's the corporation simply trying to improve it's profits. Just doing what it's supposed to do, really. How many times have we heard that here?
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Re: how prison should be

Postby Corth » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:56 am

Yes, you can limit illegal behavior. That is what the justice system is for.

Self interest, when carried out in a legal manner, is the driving force behind all of our modern technological marvels. Our standard of living, which is glorious relative to how people have lived throughout history, is a testament to the great things that have been bestowed upon the human race by individuals seeking to gain personal wealth. BUT, as a society we have a mutal understanding of what behavior is acceptable and what isn't. Behavior that violates this understanding, which over time we have codified into a system of laws, is punishable by the state. As it should be.

I can't think of anything more dangerous to the fabric of society than corrupt judges. Without confidence in the rule of law, we are just another banana republic. I am not a huge proponent of the death penalty, and in fact I'm against it generally for murders, but I actually think that it should be considered in the future for these types of situations.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: how prison should be

Postby Sarvis » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:35 am

Corth wrote:Yes, you can limit illegal behavior. That is what the justice system is for.

Self interest, when carried out in a legal manner, is the driving force behind all of our modern technological marvels.


That may be true, however self-interest is something we all share naturally. There's no real need to promote it as a virtue, any more than you would promote promiscuousness as a virtue. Both greed and sex will happen naturally, are important to our lives and can be very useful... however both can be dangerous when taken too far. The person who puts self-interest above all else is the person who will break your laws in his own self-interest.

Our standard of living, which is glorious relative to how people have lived throughout history, is a testament to the great things that have been bestowed upon the human race by individuals seeking to gain personal wealth. BUT, as a society we have a mutal understanding of what behavior is acceptable and what isn't. Behavior that violates this understanding, which over time we have codified into a system of laws, is punishable by the state. As it should be.

I can't think of anything more dangerous to the fabric of society than corrupt judges. Without confidence in the rule of law, we are just another banana republic. I am not a huge proponent of the death penalty, and in fact I'm against it generally for murders, but I actually think that it should be considered in the future for these types of situations.



It's interesting that so much of the abhorrence for what happened is based on the law being broken. What about the children whose lives were ruined?

More to the point, what if the prisons had lobbied politicians to encode this exact behavior into law rather than just bribing a few judges? The effects would be far worse, with more kids going to jail and every judge having to enforce that rather than just a corrupt few. It would also have been completely legal, and therefore moral and acceptable.

Though the harm caused would be exactly the same. If not worse, with the loss of confidence going beyond the rule of law and into the very fabric of our democracy.

Greed, even within the confines of the law, can be very harmful. It is NOT something that needs to be promoted, but limited and controlled. Just like we control our sexual desire, our anger, or any other instinct. They are important, but letting them run lose causes problems.
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Re: how prison should be

Postby Corth » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:45 am

Hrmm. No I am disgusted primarily by what these children had to go through. All judicial corruption, imho, is dangerous, but this takes the cake.

And yes, self interest should be promoted. All too often smart and capable people are made to feel inferior because they wish to become wealthy. We need to encourage this desire because generally, the way to become wealthy is to provide something of value to others. (cue snarky comment about CEOs here).

Greed, as you point out, can be harmful. Our laws, in large part, are meant to allow the forces of self interest to exert themselves when they are productive and beneficial, and to limit it when its destructive. I don't see how that is problematic.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: how prison should be

Postby Sarvis » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:53 am

Corth wrote:Hrmm. No I am disgusted primarily by what these children had to go through. All judicial corruption, imho, is dangerous, but this takes the cake.

And yes, self interest should be promoted. All too often smart and capable people are made to feel inferior because they wish to become wealthy. We need to encourage this desire because generally, the way to become wealthy is to provide something of value to others. (cue snarky comment about CEOs here).

Greed, as you point out, can be harmful. Our laws, in large part, are meant to allow the forces of self interest to exert themselves when they are productive and beneficial, and to limit it when its destructive. I don't see how that is problematic.


Go back and read the second part of my post again, I just described exactly how it is problematic and can cause the same problems within the bounds of the law. Those kids could easily have gone through the same thing, fully justified within the law if the prison's had just bribed lawmakers instead of judges.

I don't understand why you need to promote greed either. Sure, you can promote people wanting to be wealthy and hope they do so by providing something of value to others. Of course, people can instead become wealthy by simply convincing people they provide value when they do not. Hell, even strippers master that technique! Our CEOs seem to have mastered too (hey, ask and ye shall receive) considering they earn so much more than CEOs of other large corporations around the world for the same work.

You could, instead, promote that people provide something of value to others. People will then try to do that, and their natural self-interest will help them become wealthy doing it. They wouldn't even have to feel guilty!
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Re: how prison should be

Postby Corth » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:04 am

Sarvis wrote:Those kids could easily have gone through the same thing, fully justified within the law if the prison's had just bribed lawmakers instead of judges.


That involves another illegal act, the bribing of legislators. There have been several congressmen and senators prosecuted recently on the Federal level and a lot more on the state. In the absence of such illegal activity, its doubtful that a system of incarcerating children for minor crimes would be allowed to take place. If we enforce our laws dilligently, people will be a lot more hesitant to consider breaking them.

Sarvis wrote:I don't understand why you need to promote greed either. Sure, you can promote people wanting to be wealthy and hope they do so by providing something of value to others. Of course, people can instead become wealthy by simply convincing people they provide value when they do not. Hell, even strippers master that technique!


Funny you bring up strippers. They ARE indeed providing a valuable service. They are effective at making losers feel attractive and interesting. They get paid nicely for that service, and there is a reason people seek them out.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: how prison should be

Postby Sarvis » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:13 am

Corth wrote:
Sarvis wrote:Those kids could easily have gone through the same thing, fully justified within the law if the prison's had just bribed lawmakers instead of judges.


That involves another illegal act, the bribing of legislators. There have been several congressmen and senators prosecuted recently on the Federal level and a lot more on the state. In the absence of such illegal activity, its doubtful that a system of incarcerating children for minor crimes would be allowed to take place. If we enforce our laws dilligently, people will be a lot more hesitant to consider breaking them.

Sarvis wrote:I don't understand why you need to promote greed either. Sure, you can promote people wanting to be wealthy and hope they do so by providing something of value to others. Of course, people can instead become wealthy by simply convincing people they provide value when they do not. Hell, even strippers master that technique!


Funny you bring up strippers. They ARE indeed providing a valuable service. They are effective at making losers feel attractive and interesting. They get paid nicely for that service, and there is a reason people seek them out.



Did I say bribe? I probably should have said lobby. Silly me!
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Re: how prison should be

Postby kiryan » Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:03 pm

/agree corth
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Re: how prison should be

Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:48 am

Sarvis wrote:You can't glorify a behavior then put a limit on it.


Yes, you can. This is the purpose of the law.
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