Violating your child's privacy

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Violating your child's privacy

Postby kiryan » Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:50 am

http://www.informationweek.com/news/int ... evelopment

basically google latitude lets you tell your cell phone to register with google and allow your location to be tracked. Here is one of 5 "situations" where this can be abused per privacy groups.

"A parent gifts a mobile phone to a child without disclosing that the phone has been Latitude-enabled. "

I'm going to call bullshit here. My children are my responsibility. I don't think they have a right to privacy. If I want to listen to their calls, track their whereabouts, find out how fast they were driving and where or smell their breath for cookies. Thats my right and my responsibility as a parent. That is at least all the way up to age 18.

I agree there are better ways and that you shouldn't have to monitor your children this way, but I still see it as a parents right to know anything about their minor children.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby Sarvis » Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:56 am

Why is it whenever a single scene from an episode would be a perfect amusing reply to a thread, I can't find it?


Anyway, not that easy of a question. I wonder what kind of trust and paranoia issues a kid who is always watched might develop?
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby Ashiwi » Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:54 pm

Unlike most of the kids today, whose parents don't ever bother to care about where they are or who they're hanging out with or what they're doing?

I have a magnet on my refrigerator that reads "Live each day as if Aunt Bea were watching."

If more kids lived each day as if their parents were watching out for them, it might be a better world.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby Pril » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:17 pm

Hey kiryan question about this:

If you register a phone does ANYONE who knows that phone number have the ability to track said phone?
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby kiryan » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:03 pm

google says that they have lots of fine grained control over who can see what which applications ect ect ect. hacking was one concern, I was just flabbergasted that violating your child's privacy was listed as a concern.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby Alta » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:15 pm

Most likely an ethical concern, no laws against it.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby kiryan » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:25 pm

first comes broad ethical and moral consensus, then come the laws.

If people accept that monitoring your kids without them known infringes upon their privacy, then we can expect those laws coming.

Its just like the bioethicists and that woman with 14 kids. Expect there to be laws covering whether you can even get fertility treatments if you already have kids and then limits on how many embryo's you can have implanted (with the rest being "discarded" or selective reduced after implantation).

its coming.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby Ashiwi » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:42 pm

At that point you won't even be able to keep track of where your child goes online. So much for all those services that offer software to parents to help them monitor kids' internet activities to prevent assault by predators.

If it goes that far, expect a massive whiplash effect. Can you imagine what John Walsh would have to say about regulations that would keep a parent from keeping track of what their kids do? We'd have another TV show called "America's Most Unwanted Laws."
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby Alta » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:42 pm

kiryan wrote:first comes broad ethical and moral consensus, then come the laws.

If people accept that monitoring your kids without them known infringes upon their privacy, then we can expect those laws coming.

Its just like the bioethicists and that woman with 14 kids. Expect there to be laws covering whether you can even get fertility treatments if you already have kids and then limits on how many embryo's you can have implanted (with the rest being "discarded" or selective reduced after implantation).

its coming.



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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby kiryan » Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:18 am

mocked by my own, stay at home, wife. At least those muslims get something right!
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby Sarvis » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:15 am

I really feel like this is a bad thing. Of course parents have the right to do so, but the right to do something doesn't mean it's actually good. Contrary to Ash's post, I keep hearing about "helicoptor" parents who are stunting their kids' development by always being there, always making sure they get some kind of award and... err... damn, beer getting i nway of thoughts.

Anyway, kids need independence. Especially at the age when they might get cell phones, they are learning to be adults. They are learning to live o ntheir own. Yeah, they'll make mistakes. They're supposed to. That's how people learn. If you've raised them correctly up to that point, the mistakes won't be that bad.

Cue Kifle et al. telling me I don't know anything about kids because I don't have them...
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby kwirl » Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:21 pm

Assuming the kids don't KNOW that you are using it, then good for you. However, if they find out, then you have seriously betrayed their trust, and embedded upon them the sense that they are not deserving of your trust. This might be how you want to raise your children. But I think it deprives you of the opportunity to teach your children meaningful and valuable lessons about responsibility and accountability, and how they can earn, and maintain, a trusting relationship through their actions as opposed to relying upon some third party tracking device.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby Sarvis » Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:24 pm

I wonder... would this be a step towards Big Brother type monitoring? After all, a generation growing up under constant surveillance probably wouldn't find the Government taking over the job so abhorrent would they?
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby Ashiwi » Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:07 pm

I really don't want to cause a firestorm of flames here, but let me ask a question...

Those who think that monitoring your child's whereabouts, internet activity or other activities is improper or damaging to a child's growing psyche, what do you think of your parents' parenting skills in these areas and how have their actions contributed to your success and the balanced, stable lifestyle you live today?

Quality parenting might consist of tools like this, but if it did, it would also consist of open, honest communication with your child. If you're using a tool like this because you already consider your child to be untrustworthy or a liar, then there's other problems in the relationship that may need to be examined. Caring parents attempt to know where their children are at all times, not to spy on them, but because they love their children and care about their health and welfare, and are willing to take the responsiblity to be a parent instead of a best friend.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:31 pm

Personally I think that this is a great thing. Ashiwi is right about having an open and honest relationship with your child, i would tell them that it was enabled on thier phone, i would also make clear to them i wouldnt use it unless they gave me a reason too. If they started to act all sneaky and stuff i would make a point of taking a look at where they are hanging out and if they started to lie to me about it than there would be some issues.

What I am sick of is all the people out there trying to tell me how to raise my daughter. I take good care of my daughter, and her well being is my first concern. However when people start dictating to me what i can and cannot do drives me nuts. Personally it is my choice on wether or not to spank my child, its not something that i would ever do on a regular basis but there are some incidents where perhaps the child needs to understand in a more severe way they did something wrong. I would never raise my hand to her when i was angry and i would always do my best to ensure that she understood why she was being punished.

I understand that people will probably be upset by it, but its my choice as a parent. (at this point i have never spanked my daughter) Kids get away with too much these days, I gave my daughter a time out in a restaurant the other day and had some people mumble that i was being mean since i wouldnt give her anymore than 1 cup of chocolate milk. Those people dont understand that if i give into her every little need and want and if i acknowledge her hissy fits ( I took her outta the restaurant when she started this) she will grow up to be a spoiled brat that i would not be proud off. Ultimately it is my decision on how to raise my daughter and unless i am endagering her some how, people need to keep thier nose out of it.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:49 pm

It is grossly unfair to make a parent responsible for a child, then tell the parent how to raise them. Each child is different, each parent is different, each combination of experiences between the two is different.

Obviously some parents physically abuse their kids in the name of spanking and those cases are publicly and legally condemned. What about the other extreme? Some parents are negligent and let their kids grow up irresponsible and selfish.

Neither is right and you're going to have people on both sides of the extreme. I'd rather see people spanking.. even "beating" their children... instead of the neglect that I perceive to be common today.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:53 pm

in response to Ashiwi's comments which are good and balanced.

Trust but verify... especially if you are responsible for the results. They may feel that there is no trust, or be "betrayed", but thats really changing the argument and the role. You are in charge, you are responsible. They are not independent and should not expect to be "free" as long as someone else is supporting them.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby oteb » Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:12 am

What about their right to privacy? Its one of the most basic human rights (unless your kids are not human and are just things you own). Just as you don't want government controlling you, your kids don't want to be controlled either. For me enabling something like this is pretty much equal to entering kid's room without knocking. You can always phone them and ask (equivalent of knocking). If you need to rely on tools like that you probably fail as parent. Trust is usually a mutual relation.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby Ragorn » Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:05 pm

Children don't have a right to privacy from their parents. It isn't a "basic human right." In fact, it's literally the opposite... parents have a fundamental responsibility to ensure that their children are safe. If that means searching the kid's room because you suspect they've gotten involved in sex or drugs, then that's part of your job as a parent. You "fail" as a parent if your kid is smoking pot at 12 and you don't know about it. That's how you fail.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:10 pm

oteb wrote:Its one of the most basic human rights


Privacy is not a basic human right.

oteb wrote:For me enabling something like this is pretty much equal to entering kid's room without knocking. You can always phone them and ask (equivalent of knocking). If you need to rely on tools like that you probably fail as parent.


One should always knock before entering any room, as a sign of courtesy and respect, I agree Oteb. But that door belongs to me, not my child. Mutual respect also means that door will never be locked, as I will always knock before entering. If you get to the point where you cellphone your kids instead of speaking to them in their room...

I hope I mistook your opinion Oteb, but I see this mentality often with parents as a teacher; usually the parents of badly-raised children.


P.S. I get bonus points for agreeing with Ragorn.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby Ragorn » Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:00 pm

Yeah, I'm a liberal, not a hippie. I don't think that children should be treated like equals by their parents. You can love and trust your children and still check up on them to make sure they're making good choices. On the topic at hand, I wouldn't buy Caitlin a GPS-enabled cell phone unless she gave me a good reason to do so. However, when she gets into her teenage years, I won't hesitate for one second to search her backpack for cigarettes or condoms if I think for one second that I might find either one.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby Sarvis » Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:24 pm

Ragorn wrote:Yeah, I'm a liberal, not a hippie. I don't think that children should be treated like equals by their parents. You can love and trust your children and still check up on them to make sure they're making good choices. On the topic at hand, I wouldn't buy Caitlin a GPS-enabled cell phone unless she gave me a good reason to do so. However, when she gets into her teenage years, I won't hesitate for one second to search her backpack for cigarettes or condoms if I think for one second that I might find either one.


Considering a lack of condoms doesn't mean a lack of sex... you're probably better off finding condoms.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby avak » Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:58 pm

First of all, not that anyone here has claimed this, but Google is irrelevant to the discussion. GPS tracking technology has been commercially available for several years now. In fact, there was quite the stir when a GPS device was released that could be put in a car and not only track location, but send email reports based on location and car speed!

Also, like someone was saying earlier...parenting is a mutual trust relationship. So you have GPS-enabled phone. The kid is going to figure out how to game the system...like buying a tracfone that you don't even know about...or leaving their phone at school or turning the phone off or hacking the phone os. The point is, there is no easy 'trick' to being a good parent. It would seem to take years of good practices and trust building.

I'd also agree that children are not entitled to privacy. Extending them reasonable privacy on the parents' terms might be a good way to build trust and personal responsibility, but ultimately the parents are the wards of the children. To that end, enabling this technology without disclosing it to the child seems counterproductive. It means that you don't trust your child. I have the ability to monitor my businesses through remote cameras, but I rarely do. Sometimes I get curious and see what is going on, but I really try to minimize it. Why? No one but me knows if I'm watching or not. The reason is because I want to build mutual trust and respect. Like I said earlier, anyone can game the system...so the best strategy is to remove reasons to do that.

I almost forgot to make my point. I think the technology is fine. I think giving your kid a GPS-enabled phone is fine, if it falls in line with your parenting style. It could be a great asset in the case of a kidnapping or catastrophe. Those two situations alone are good enough reasons to have this technology available. If you are sitting at a laptop spying on your kid all day then I think you have bigger issues.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby oteb » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:30 pm

Ragorn wrote: You "fail" as a parent if your kid is smoking pot at 12 and you don't know about it.


You fail if you don't notice or your are not aware of your kids problems beforehand. Finding a crack pipe under the bed does not mean you exercise your control well. It means you lost it some years back.

As for privacy not being basic human right i will argue.
Most basic of them all is dignity. All others are derived from that. That's why in a lot of countries things like mail privacy, prerequisites of searching private house, bank secret (dunno if that is correct phrase but you get what i mean i hope), medical secret are regulated constitutionally.

Adriorn wrote:If you get to the point where you cellphone your kids instead of speaking to them in their room...

What I meant is that you can phone them to check where they are instead of spying them with GPS.
What we do with kids is phone them. We just told them they either have to answer or reply with a message if they don't want to talk. I would have really serious moral hangover if I ever installed gps tracking device on their phone.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:19 pm

bah.

first off, parents make mistakes. Sometimes they extend too much trust too quickly. Ragorn said it best. I won't hestiate for one second to search my kids backpack if I think I might find xyz. Even good kids with good upbringing rebel and lie. If you suspect that for one second your kid may be engaging in off limits behavior, you have a duty to fully investigate and take corrective action.

This whole notion that if you don't trust your kids you are harming them is weak at best. Its not black and white. You can be too untrusting, you can be too trusting. If you find yourself at the point where you do have to "violate" your child's trust, then you may have made a mistake as a parent, but thats water under the bridge. Its time to investigate and take corrective action, then worry about the "trust" issues.

This goes along with the whole culture of kids are our equals. I hope none of you are so stupid as to believe that kids in general are the equal of adults (again there are always exceptions on both sides). One of the stupidest things I've ever heard Hillary Clinton say is that we shouldn't teach our kids, we should be "colearners" with them. This is all rubbish from the feminist and hippie cultures and if you ask me, significant in the decline in the American family.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby oteb » Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:03 pm

Well put Kiryan. Didn't expect a balanced post from extreme conservative like you;)
I think it's a matter of where we place accents. If I started to doubt if kid isn't misusing my trust I would not search his backpack. I would give him reasons why I feel like that and I would ask him to show me content of his backpack. That is why I would prefer to phone him instead of tracking his gps. (or hers when she grows up a bit:)
Same thing with my gf. When I need something from her handbag with her consent of course or when she asks me to get something from it I never open it. Instead I give the handbag to her to get it for me. I just feel awkward intruding into someone's private territory even if it's someone I am very close with.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby Pril » Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:25 pm

oteb wrote:Well put Kiryan. Didn't expect a balanced post from extreme conservative like you;)
I think it's a matter of where we place accents. If I started to doubt if kid isn't misusing my trust I would not search his backpack. I would give him reasons why I feel like that and I would ask him to show me content of his backpack. That is why I would prefer to phone him instead of tracking his gps. (or hers when she grows up a bit:)
Same thing with my gf. When I need something from her handbag with her consent of course or when she asks me to get something from it I never open it. Instead I give the handbag to her to get it for me. I just feel awkward intruding into someone's private territory even if it's someone I am very close with.


I agree with you Oteb although I don't take it to those extreme's. If my wife asks me for something from her bag I don't feel bad about going in to get it on the other hand I would never go into her bag w/o asking her permission on my own (except in urgent matters like cars on fire and i need her keys or something).

As far as kids go it's hard to say because I don't have any yet but my grandmother who was a teacher her whole life always said: "The greatest punishment you can give your kids is letting them know that they've disappointed you. If that isn't punishment for them then you've screwed up as a parent." Makes sense to me I'd like to think that when I have kids they respect me enough to do anything they can to not dissappoint me.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby Ashiwi » Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:47 pm

So when your child is hanging out with a kid that you know is a very bad influence, and their behavior changes, and you feel there's very good reason to believe they may be abusing substances they shouldn't be involved in, do you hand her the handbag and ask her to produce anything she may feel she doesn't want you to see? Do you ask her if there's anything she doesn't want you to know, then trust her when she tells you "no"?

Kids make mistakes. Even good kids with parents who are involved in their lives have been known to take a wrong turn for any number of reasons, most often peer pressure. Parents who care what happens to their kids know and accept this, and while they don't deliberately attempt to deprive their children of privacy, they do take the necessary steps to know what's happening in their children's lives, even when the kids don't want them to know.

I think the trick is to know your kids well enough to have a pretty good idea when they're hedging around an issue. I could always tell when my daughter wasn't telling me the truth, and I don't know if it was because I knew her that well, or if it was because she was a really bad liar (her father was a horrible liar, you could read his tells like a poorly written detective novel). Her father tended to weave a whopper whenever he did something he shouldn't have, and so did she. I would have been a bad parent if I hadn't attempted to find out the truth, even if she didn't want me to know it.

Kids don't have privacy. Kids have parents who trust them enough to give them privacy, and then when they make mistakes, as all kids do, they have parents who love them enough to invade their privacy.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby Kifle » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:50 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Kids don't have privacy. Kids have parents who trust them enough to give them privacy, and then when they make mistakes, as all kids do, they have parents who love them enough to invade their privacy.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby oteb » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:46 pm

Ashiwi wrote:So when your child is hanging out with a kid that you know is a very bad influence, and their behavior changes, and you feel there's very good reason to believe they may be abusing substances they shouldn't be involved in, do you hand her the handbag and ask her to produce anything she may feel she doesn't want you to see? Do you ask her if there's anything she doesn't want you to know, then trust her when she tells you "no"?


I would ask him (her is a bit too young still:P) to show me everything in his backpack.
I think it's possible to exercise authority without violating privacy and trust.
If I was really concerned with illegal drugs I wouldn't secretly get a hair from a hairbrush for hair test. I would explain my concerns and ask him to piss in a bottle. In my presence too just to be sure.

Ashiwi wrote:Kids don't have privacy. Kids have parents who trust them enough to give them privacy, and then when they make mistakes, as all kids do, they have parents who love them enough to invade their privacy.

Nice and catchy but I do not agree. Kids will have their privacy whether you violate it or not.
I think its part of our nature.
In every ralation you can encourage (or in an uneven relation of parent-kid you can enforce) other person to show you some of their private life but abusing trust or power and doing it secretly without knowledge or consent in my opinion is disgusting. Moreover if you are doing it you are greatly increasing your chance that it will be harder for you to get other information with more ordinary measures.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby kiryan » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:12 am

The problem with your approach is that you have created some sort of moral and ethical framework all for what? I'll tell you; it is so that you can avoid being responsible. The kids make their own decisions and you can take the moral high ground in chastising them and with society.

Ridiculous. I set the expectation clearly. There is no privacy, there is no fairness because I am responsible for turning them into adults.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby Sarvis » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:16 am

kiryan wrote:The problem with your approach is that you have created some sort of moral and ethical framework all for what? I'll tell you; it is so that you can avoid being responsible. The kids make their own decisions and you can take the moral high ground in chastising them and with society.

Ridiculous. I set the expectation clearly. There is no privacy, there is no fairness because I am responsible for turning them into adults.



Can someone be an adult if they've never, for even the slightest moment, had adult responsibility?

That's what you're doing when you don't let kids out of your sight and control their lives 100%.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby kiryan » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:23 am

There is a difference between controlling someone's life and being in control.

And yes, you don't have to take the trial and error approach to becoming adult. You can actually be taught how to be an adult and avoid the mistakes if your parents care enough to do so.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby Sarvis » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:26 am

kiryan wrote:There is a difference between controlling someone's life and being in control.

And yes, you don't have to take the trial and error approach to becoming adult. You can actually be taught how to be an adult and avoid the mistakes if your parents care enough to do so.


If you say so. Of course, I burned my hand pretty badly on a pan once... after my mom had warned me many, many times not to touch it.

Then again, I could also cook for myself by the time I was 6...
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby oteb » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:06 am

Ah. The usual judgmental Kiryan is back. Were you sick on tuesday or something?

kiryan wrote:The problem with your approach is that you have created some sort of moral and ethical framework all for what?


I don't know what is your problem with my approach but no I didn't create it just for that. That is part of my ethical standpoint I guess.
Also I dont have a faintest idea how you derived the notion of me avoiding responsibility from the fact that I respect my kids privacy.

There is no privacy, there is no fairness

you gonna breed some fine republican voters..
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby Ashiwi » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:59 pm

He might just do that. But I bet his kids vote.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby Ragorn » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:58 pm

Kifle wrote:
Ashiwi wrote:Kids don't have privacy. Kids have parents who trust them enough to give them privacy, and then when they make mistakes, as all kids do, they have parents who love them enough to invade their privacy.

This.

you gonna breed some fine republican voters..

I agree with kiryan, and kifle, and ashiwi. And I'm breeding some very fine democratic voters.

Your kids are going to think you're awful stupid. "Hahahah yeah he made me dump out my backpack again... like I'd ever keep anything in there."
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby kiryan » Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:33 pm

I am judgmental and you all should be as well. We should judge everyone and everything around us constantly. We should advise those around us on better ways. The notion that we shouldn't judge each other is another one of these frameworks. No one should judge you because you don't judge anyone else.

Parents are supposed to be in control. Parents are supposed to teach. Parents are take responsibility to ensure that their children are not engaging in dangerous behavior.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby oteb » Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:09 pm

Ragorn wrote:Your kids are going to think you're awful stupid.


Cause inspecting it when kid is not looking is infinitely smarter. OK i got your point.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby Ragorn » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:09 pm

oteb wrote:
Ragorn wrote:Your kids are going to think you're awful stupid.


Cause inspecting it when kid is not looking is infinitely smarter. OK i got your point.

There is a reason why the police pursue search warrants when they have suspicion of illicit activity. It's because the perpetrators aren't likely to give themselves up when asked politely to empty their backpacks.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby Ashiwi » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:17 pm

I think his point is that if you have reason to believe your child is doing something that might endanger him or her and you also have reason to believe they may not be completely honest with you about those activities, then said child may also be intelligent enough to stash their secrets somewhere that isn't the most obvious place. In that circumstance, a wise parent would turn the child's room and personal belongings upside down in order to determine any danger that may be present, and in order to do that they may have to resort to all kinds of intrusions in the child's perceived privacy, such as reviewing internet logs, personal cell text messages, digging through their clothing, looking under the bed... you get the idea.

Of course, the perception that you are intruding on their privacy is eliminated if you sit down with your children at an age where they will comprehend and advise them that as long as you are responsible for them, you will take whatever action you determine necessary in order to keep them safe, up to and including violating their perceived privacy in any manner you see fit. Either they will learn that if they have nothing to hide they're much better off, or they will learn how to be discreet with what they want.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby Sarvis » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:19 pm

Ragorn wrote:
oteb wrote:
Ragorn wrote:Your kids are going to think you're awful stupid.


Cause inspecting it when kid is not looking is infinitely smarter. OK i got your point.

There is a reason why the police pursue search warrants when they have suspicion of illicit activity. It's because the perpetrators aren't likely to give themselves up when asked politely to empty their backpacks.


Actually, it's because we don't want people poking into our private lives without good reason. If not for that, the police would just break in and search _without_ a warrant.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby oteb » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:40 pm

Ragorn wrote:
oteb wrote:
Ragorn wrote:Your kids are going to think you're awful stupid.


Cause inspecting it when kid is not looking is infinitely smarter. OK i got your point.

There is a reason why the police pursue search warrants when they have suspicion of illicit activity. It's because the perpetrators aren't likely to give themselves up when asked politely to empty their backpacks.


How is that adequate? Does police search the house only if perpetrator is not at home?
You know... Here even in commie times when SB (political police) had a warrant for searching your house you had a right to call a witness. When they came to my father's house (who was involved in underground organization) they respected that law. We called a neighbor who was present during the whole thing to make sure they dont find anything that wasnt there before:P
Now also ability of police searching your house when nobody is there is quite limited (tho not explicitly banned).
I seriously don't know why you and kiryan imply I am stupid or irresponsible for stating that I would not search belongings of my child without his knowledge.
IMO its way better to be clear and honest about it and give reasons to involved person (equivalent of police warrent i guess?:P)
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby kiryan » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:05 pm

you know each of us has a different threshold for where we would engage in a "violation" of our children's privacy. If I was at the point that I felt that I needed to violate my children's privacy, we are past the point of trusting them to do the right thing or to tell the truth.

Oteb, if you were past the point of trusting your kids to tell the truth and or thought they were engaging in very dangerous behavior, would you still "respect" their privacy and approach it like the police who have constraints on how they can investigate and gather evidence? Is limiting your ability / authority really worth it if you're kid is in danger?
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby Sarvis » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:06 pm

kiryan wrote:you know each of us has a different threshold for where we would engage in a "violation" of our children's privacy. If I was at the point that I felt that I needed to violate my children's privacy, we are past the point of trusting them to do the right thing or to tell the truth.

Oteb, if you were past the point of trusting your kids to tell the truth and or thought they were engaging in very dangerous behavior, would you still "respect" their privacy and approach it like the police who have constraints on how they can investigate and gather evidence? Is limiting your ability / authority really worth it if you're kid is in danger?


We expect it of our police, don't we?
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby oteb » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:13 pm

kiryan wrote:Oteb, if you were past the point of trusting your kids to tell the truth and or thought they were engaging in very dangerous behavior, would you still "respect" their privacy and approach it like the police who have constraints on how they can investigate and gather evidence? Is limiting your ability / authority really worth it if you're kid is in danger?


Nothing comes to my mind that, if I made known, would limit my ability to execute my authority over kid.
I could just say: You lost all my trust, I think you are in danger and I will search your room now. You can either participate or leave if you gonna be ashamed of Playboy under mattress"
I still wouldn't do it behind their back.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby kiryan » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:49 pm

I see no reason to tip a kid off that I am investigating any suspicions. You want to catch them if they are screwing up, not give them warnings and put them on alert in the name of privacy trust or whatever.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby Kifle » Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:27 pm

Just out of curiosity, I wonder how many of people in this thread actually have kids who also care enough about our kids to not let them be complete retards when they're young -- i.e. give them a high amount of privacy.

I have kids. I know rags, kiryan, and ashiwi have kids. We are all pretty close on this issue.

As for those who object, I know Sarvis doesn't have kids, I'm not sure about oteb.

I see a pattern.

Anyway, what scared me the most as a kid was that my mom always found out. It didn't matter, she was magic, and she knew what I was doing. Now I realize she didn't, and she was just guessing most of the time due to behavior patterns. I have that same hold over my children -- dad knows everything. My oldest is now to the point where he realizes I don't know everything. Now I have to show him that, while I don't know everything, I can usually find out, so his probability of getting caught is still unfavorably high. He still fucks up, but he doesn't do it often, and he rarely does it twice -- because I catch him the first time. I am able to catch him because I snoop at times, I listen when he doesn't think I'm listening, and I know how an 11yr old boy thinks. If I didn't snoop, he would be looking at porn on the internet (he's been caught and warned), he's attempted to run up an extremely high phone bill due to texting when he's not supposed to be (caught him before he costed me upwards of $600)... I could go on.

Anyway, I still think it's funny; and while the non-parents think they have all the answers to parenting just like us parents thought we did before we had kids, when the non-parents finally do have kids, they will understand why we do what we do and how quickly what you thought you were going to do changes.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby oteb » Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:05 pm

I got 2. And despite me letting the older one (son 11) be a retard as you say I am absolutely sure he didn't do 10% of retarded things I did by the time I was his age. Sometimes I am seriously surprised how responsible he is. The younger one (girl 6) is shaping up to be way more troublesome in the future tho.
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Re: Violating your child's privacy

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:03 pm

Kifle wrote:Just out of curiosity, I wonder how many of people in this thread actually have kids who also care enough about our kids to not let them be complete retards when they're young -- i.e. give them a high amount of privacy.

I have kids. I know rags, kiryan, and ashiwi have kids. We are all pretty close on this issue.

As for those who object, I know Sarvis doesn't have kids, I'm not sure about oteb.

I see a pattern.

Anyway, what scared me the most as a kid was that my mom always found out. It didn't matter, she was magic, and she knew what I was doing. Now I realize she didn't, and she was just guessing most of the time due to behavior patterns. I have that same hold over my children -- dad knows everything. My oldest is now to the point where he realizes I don't know everything. Now I have to show him that, while I don't know everything, I can usually find out, so his probability of getting caught is still unfavorably high. He still fucks up, but he doesn't do it often, and he rarely does it twice -- because I catch him the first time. I am able to catch him because I snoop at times, I listen when he doesn't think I'm listening, and I know how an 11yr old boy thinks. If I didn't snoop, he would be looking at porn on the internet (he's been caught and warned), he's attempted to run up an extremely high phone bill due to texting when he's not supposed to be (caught him before he costed me upwards of $600)... I could go on.

Anyway, I still think it's funny; and while the non-parents think they have all the answers to parenting just like us parents thought we did before we had kids, when the non-parents finally do have kids, they will understand why we do what we do and how quickly what you thought you were going to do changes.


That last part i think sums it up pretty good. We all have expectations of how we are goin to be as parents, that is till we are actually parents, than those expectations change. Mine is still young (just turning 2) and when she starts to turn 12 or 13....well im scared shitless of that time. But the one thing i realize is that how things were when i was young are not gonna be the same and i have to remeber that.
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