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So a while back Dalar recommended I read "The Game" by Neil Strauss. While I was looking up who recommended it I came across this quote from Ashiwi... which just happens to give me a good starting point for my feelings on this book:

Ashiwi wrote:Most women don't want to be hooked up with a psychological timebomb with a massive inferiority complex who can't find or keep a job and can't take care of himself out on his own - viewtopic.php?f=43&t=21121&p=198152&

This almost perfectly describes Mystery, the master pickup artist who initiates Neil (aka Style) into the pickup artist (PUA) lifestyle. Throughout the book Mystery puts on a great game, picks up the most beautiful women... and then mistreats them until they leave, only to follow this up with a massive emotional meltdown that nearly ends with suicide. This, apparently, is the kind of man women are attracted to.

If he knows the right lines, tricks, games and hypnotic wordplay.

Therein lies the problem for me. While the PUA community will tell you it's all about building and becoming confident, I actually saw very little confidence from any of the people in this book. It's more about a rote skillset to be mastered than actual self-improvement, and in some ways it almost seems immoral. From lying about fights as a conversation starter to using psychological tricks to convince credulous women psychic abilities are real the skills are largely ones I would hesitate to use. They talk about the necessity of projecting your value, while having so little faith in themselves that they resort to magic tricks to hold the interest of their target.

Yet, it seems to BE a necessity. I don't get the impression any of them, and by extension me, have the slightest chance with any of these women without resorting to those tactics. No one wants to hear that I spent an hour today figuring out why the colors wouldn't alternate properly in a report I was designing. I bet some of you fell asleep just reading that! So what is left for those of us who weren't born charming and interesting, who don't have stories of meeting celebrities or getting four touchdowns in a single game?

The most depressing part of all is how many women fall for it. From Playboy Playmates to strippers (and yes, I do wish I had read this before meeting Kayla... the techniques seem to be effective on strippers) to celebrities and rock stars. Everyone, really, except for a certain lead guitarist. Style himself says that the process dehumanizes the women as well as himself, yet they all eat it up. Eventually he stops describing the conversations, or even the women... instead referring to an entire evening as a list of routines he used. From halfway through the book right up until the end I almost felt like giving up entirely. Who wants to be with women like this, after all? What's the point? A whore would be quicker, more to the point and possibly cheaper!

These women are so enamored with the routines that the PUAs build harems of women who know about each other. They're so desperate to find a guy who's every word is a pre-planned routine that they'll share, while the guy who would buy them flowers and a nice dinner while being faithful is simply shunned.

The book ends with some redemption though, at least for Style. The lead guitarist I mentioned earlier is Lisa, and is completely immune to his PUA skills. So immune, in fact, that he almost loses her by trying these tricks. Style and Lisa share some special connection, and honestly reading those parts remind me of how Kayla made me feel. In the end Lisa helps Neil realize how shallow and empty the lifestyle was, and he gives up his harem and moves out of the community completely. (Granted, a LOT of other crap was also leading him to this point... but she pushed him over that final hump.)

In the end it appears that the choices are:

1) Become the kind of guy every girl says she hates, eventually meet the right woman and then risk losing her because she's the one who actually hates that guy

2) Hope you meet her by chance, even though you don't have the skills to approach her because you're not the guy from 1.

So yeah. Great.

I'm too lazy to check what I wrote when I said read this book. I wanted you to read this book to see how other people approach women and initiate conversations. I'm not saying dehumanize yourself and have your way with them. If anything, use this as a way to approach women you thought you have no chance at. Conversation skills will get you far in life.

Also, #2 in your options shows me that you are pessimistic. That's not a good idea. Women want alot of things. Happiness, someone to protect them, and someone who entertains them are some of these things.

Dalar wrote:I'm too lazy to check what I wrote when I said read this book. I wanted you to read this book to see how other people approach women and initiate conversations. I'm not saying dehumanize yourself and have your way with them. If anything, use this as a way to approach women you thought you have no chance at. Conversation skills will get you far in life.

Also, #2 in your options shows me that you are pessimistic. That's not a good idea. Women want alot of things. Happiness, someone to protect them, and someone who entertains them are some of these things.

I thought #1 showed I was pessimistic too? Come on, give me some credit here! ;)

I really don't see Style meeting the lead guitarist of Courney Love's band without taking the path he did, though. He only met her by being friends with Courtney, which only happened because he used his gaming skills on her during an interview.

Sarvis, forget all that other stuff. What Dartan wanted you to pay attention to is how men talk to women in order to make a favorable, positive impression on them.

Seriously... it's all about how you present yourself. Confidence and good conversation will get you a long way.

Ashiwi wrote:Sarvis, forget all that other stuff. What Dartan wanted you to pay attention to is how men talk to women in order to make a favorable, positive impression on them.

Seriously... it's all about how you present yourself. Confidence and good conversation will get you a long way.

That's the thing, all the approaches are just scripts they invent. That's part of what I don't like... starting off a relationship with lies and tricks.

It's not approaching and being honest, it's all "I approached with the X opener, then moved into the Y routine." It's so bad that towards the end Style tries to hit on some girls near Project Hollywood and the girls have heard his exact lines already, even complaining about how many times it's been tried on them!

These guys never really seem to gain confidence so much as reassurance that the scripts work. Their confidence is not in themselves but in the tools, and it shows more and more as the whole society breaks down.

Of course if these guys are like me, that's almost necessary. Conversation is difficult for me, I'm not great at coming up with things to say on the fly. Then, of course, when you are talking you need to pass "shit tests" and make sure you don't say anything that doesn't build higher value in her eyes.

The one Pickup Guru, Juggler, whose techniques sounded somewhat respectable only got one short chapter devoted to him for some reason.

Still though, I actually found The Game itself to be somewhat demotivational. Not the same reaction most guys seem to have... I guess "Cool, this is how I lie to women to get into bed" just doesn't appeal to me. *shrug*

You know what ive found to work the best go up to the woman and just say "Hi I'd like to get to know you better, would you like to have coffee or a drink sometime?" Throw in some flatery to go with it and you will be surprised how much it works, cause they think your being genuine and actually might be something different than the usual idiot out there. (this works better on woman who are 25+ btw and who actually want more than a one nigtht stand)

Sarvis wrote:

Ashiwi wrote:Sarvis, forget all that other stuff. What Dartan wanted you to pay attention to is how men talk to women in order to make a favorable, positive impression on them.

Seriously... it's all about how you present yourself. Confidence and good conversation will get you a long way.

That's the thing, all the approaches are just scripts they invent. That's part of what I don't like... starting off a relationship with lies and tricks.

It's not approaching and being honest, it's all "I approached with the X opener, then moved into the Y routine." It's so bad that towards the end Style tries to hit on some girls near Project Hollywood and the girls have heard his exact lines already, even complaining about how many times it's been tried on them!

These guys never really seem to gain confidence so much as reassurance that the scripts work. Their confidence is not in themselves but in the tools, and it shows more and more as the whole society breaks down.

Of course if these guys are like me, that's almost necessary. Conversation is difficult for me, I'm not great at coming up with things to say on the fly. Then, of course, when you are talking you need to pass "shit tests" and make sure you don't say anything that doesn't build higher value in her eyes.

The one Pickup Guru, Juggler, whose techniques sounded somewhat respectable only got one short chapter devoted to him for some reason.

Still though, I actually found The Game itself to be somewhat demotivational. Not the same reaction most guys seem to have... I guess "Cool, this is how I lie to women to get into bed" just doesn't appeal to me. *shrug*

Style's lines failed because everyone followed his scripts. Make your own "script". Make sure you can carry a conversation past a minute about topics that most people generally like to do. I'm talking about fun exciting topics, like a hobby you have that isn't weird (MUDding is an example). I actually like talking about food and resturants. You say conversation is difficult for you. It was difficult for most of the guys in this book as well. Maybe that's something you should work on.

The book is about Style's journey into the PUA society and how it works to some extent. All I am saying is, it's a good book to read on why communication skills are important.

Technical manuals now huh?

EDIT 7/22/09: IF YOU ARE JUST STARTING TO READ THIS THREAD, SERIOUSLY CONSIDER FINDING SOMETHING BETTER TO DO RIGHT NOW. IT IS NOT FUNNY OR ENTERTAINING IN ANY WAY. IT'S JUST GENERALLY LAME AND A WASTE OF TIME.

I worked on building a parser for a legacy VB6 application, so I could import the objects, properties and methods into a UML 2.1 document. Isn't that exciting?!

But.. that's not the stuff I talk about when in mixed company. For example, the conversation at the table tonight at a local Irish Pub hangout revolved around mug-shot websites, crack addict pictures, high-price prostitutes, Pretty Woman, ex-wives, soon to be dads, prego wives, and how we picked up our current sig-O's.

You just have to be versatile! A conversation is like a river: you have to navigate it well, or risk being forgotten if you attempt to go against the current.

But regardless of what we say, Sarvis. I'm not sure how much you'll listen. I just hope that you really do listen more than you write about. For someone who likes to think and is rather intraspective, you sure seem to miss the point a lot.

This thread is deja-vu.

Raiwen wrote:how we picked up our current sig-O's.

I wonder how much of THAT conversation involved telling each other about basic hygiene?

You just have to be versatile! A conversation is like a river: you have to navigate it well, or risk being forgotten if you attempt to go against the current.

But regardless of what we say, Sarvis. I'm not sure how much you'll listen. I just hope that you really do listen more than you write about. For someone who likes to think and is rather intraspective, you sure seem to miss the point a lot.

This from a bunch of people who missed the point. Frankly, after reading The Game I'm not even sure I care to try anymore. Women seem to suck, and despite the tips about having better conversation skills (no fucking shit Sherlock!) the men who get the girl seem to be those who have a lot of manipulative bullshit up their sleeves.

Then there are lovely passages detailing how women who have boyfriends or are married are actually easier to pick up, parts where they'd rather be part of a harem than be with a decent guy, parts where they evaluate your possessions on the first date to see if you're worth it.

In the end, even when you find that someone special she's probably going to leave you for someone else in a couple years.

Yay.

Pessimism ftw. I think you're right Sarvis. You should just give up with that attitude. You're not willing to play the game and will just die single. Btw, are your grandparents and parents still together?

And for fun, look up Yarash's thread asking the BBS for advice on how to meet women. Then look up the thread about his baby pictures.

Dalar wrote:Pessimism ftw. I think you're right Sarvis. You should just give up with that attitude. You're not willing to play the game and will just die single. Btw, are your grandparents and parents still together?

All of my grandparents are dead. Thanks. I really needed another depressing thought.

And for fun, look up Yarash's thread asking the BBS for advice on how to meet women. Then look up the thread about his baby pictures.

May do that later. Will that convince me to be someone I'm not so I can find someone who will cheat on me then dump me?

Sarvis wrote:

Dalar wrote:Pessimism ftw. I think you're right Sarvis. You should just give up with that attitude. You're not willing to play the game and will just die single. Btw, are your grandparents and parents still together?

All of my grandparents are dead. Thanks. I really needed another depressing thought.

And for fun, look up Yarash's thread asking the BBS for advice on how to meet women. Then look up the thread about his baby pictures.

May do that later. Will that convince me to be someone I'm not so I can find someone who will cheat on me then dump me?

ROFL

You should watch Fear of Girls and then track down a PLP, your attitude about women seems to fit the lifestyle. Maybe your chaotic neutral?

Great book. Also check out Mystery's reality show and search for "ladder theory" on google.

As the only chick stupid and dense enough to keep weighing in and trying to help you, I've got bruises on bruises on my forehead, here.

I went out with a guy once who got to the restaurant before I did, didn't bother standing when I got to the table, told me a story over dinner about how guys give more to a relationship and women bring all the drama, and let the door close in my face as we were leaving the restaurant.

I went out with a guy once who, in spite of me saying repeatedly that I needed to leave because I worked early in the morning, kept telling me stories that I couldn't, without feeling callous and rude, simply get up and walk away from... like the one about how his mom died from cancer when he was ten.

I went out with a guy once who, when I asked him what he did for a living, responded "As little as possible."

I went out with a guy once who, every time I started to contribute to the conversation, cut in over me and didn't let me finish a single sentence all night.

I've been approached by guys who dress like slobs, don't brush their hair, use stupid pickup lines (vulgar, crass, or just downright dumb), talk immediately about how much they suck at this or that, or just simply wouldn't look me in the eye when they talked to me.

Not a single one of them got a second chance.

Every single one of them would have argued that they deserved a shot just as vehemently as you do. I'm sure every one of them was just as blind to what they were doing wrong.

There is no second chance at a first impression. Stand up straight, pull your shoulders back, walk with confidence, and when you speak to a woman, speak to her deliberately, deliver your words with self-assurance, smile, be relaxed, don't be afraid to start a real conversation about real topics, don't be afraid to find something pertinent to her to compliment her on casually, take note of details before you even approach her, and for cryin' out loud, find some lists of do's and don'ts for dating and meeting women, and pay attention to them! Dont' talk about your ex, don't interrupt her when she tries to talk, don't look all around the room if you want her attention on you, don't fidget, don't whine, moan, or complain, convey to her that what you do for a living is very interesting and how much you enjoy it, don't say you're bored, and if she doesn't appear interested, don't keep trying then walk away defeated. You're a good guy, you've got what she wants, if she's not giving you what you want then move on.

I honestly think the best pickup line I ever got was in a little bar I'd been to five or six times over the course of six months. A guy came to the bar to get a beer while I was standing there, looked over casually, and said, as if he'd just thought of it "Hey, you know, every time you come in here, you're always so sharply dressed." I went there after work, which is why I was still in my business clothes, but the fact was that he noticed... he noticed me, he noticed what I wore, he paid attention and he used it well. He got a date.

Ask a friend. Get a mirror. Practice. Take a class or lesson. Find women in other venues, like in a class in a junior college. Expand your horizons and keep trying.

Confidence - fake it 'til you make it. Smile - it makes you more approachable.

The issue with finding a good woman is that all the good ones are barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen.

*hides* :p

I lost my last grandparent at age 9 .. o woe is me! (I really did but come ON)

Basing your future on a book like this is really .. dumb. We (women) are real, flash and blood. We don't want players, yes players win a lot .. by women who want to be played! real women don't fall for that crap or want it. Life is not about how much game you can play, it is about how meaningful your life is and can be.

This all seems so familiar, the same tactics used whenever you want advice .. whether it is how to find a job, how to invest, or how to *pick up chicks* Everyone jumps in to give you advice and you either take it from someone who doesn't know what the hell they are talking about or you tell everyone how wrong they are, you are different, we don't understand .. woe is me ..

You need to fine some local advice column or blog to immerse yourself in! Maybe some needy/desparate girl who is looking for someone just like you will be reading the same thing!

And you need to stop being lame Sarvis.

So now that we know yet another reason why Pril's genes should be culled from the pool...

I need to throw in my towel. After all I've done and tried, Dartan just gave far better advice than I ever could.

Sarvis wrote:

Raiwen wrote:how we picked up our current sig-O's.

I wonder how much of THAT conversation involved telling each other about basic hygiene?

That's just a given. All of us at the table with girlfriend's (or wives) already know how to dress, brush, and be presentable toward the genre of girl we're interested in seeing. One of them was punk, and guess what.. his girlfriend is, too. However, we don't hear him whining about he can never get the chearleader, because that's not what he's interested in, nor does he dress the part.

Sarvis wrote:

Raiwen wrote:You just have to be versatile! A conversation is like a river: you have to navigate it well, or risk being forgotten if you attempt to go against the current.

Then there are lovely passages detailing how women who have boyfriends or are married are actually easier to pick up, parts where they'd rather be part of a harem than be with a decent guy, parts where they evaluate your possessions on the first date to see if you're worth it.

It's true. There are some women who are always looking for things on the side. Just as there are men who are always willing to cheat. Just because you're XX or XY doesn't mean we're completely different. There are many men who've never cheated on their woman, just as there are many women who've never cheated on their man. I, myself, have never cheated on my girlfriend/wife. I also don't fear my girlfriend cheating on me. That's just the type of girl she is.

A friend of mine used to only date married women. My theory on the matter is this: They were willing anyways. They were unhappy. They weren't looking for anything serious. He was willing to deliver.

My ex-wife probably fell somewhere in the spread of women there. However, had I been more observant and less blinded by her hawtness, I probably would have noticed it. Or.. I could have just listened to my friends (heh). There also isn't a rule that says, once you find somebody, that person will find you as perfect as you find them. The whole thing is work.

Even after dating for 3 years, it's still work with my girlfriend and I. It takes work to keep the other one happy. You're balancing the needs between yourself and the other person.

Sarvis wrote:In the end, even when you find that someone special she's probably going to leave you for someone else in a couple years.

This is just self-indulgent, sarcastic, BS. If you really believe this, then maybe you should stop looking, grease up the hand, and forget about women. Hell.. you might find more luck being gay.

Ashiwi wrote:As the only chick stupid and dense enough to keep weighing in and trying to help you, I've got bruises on bruises on my forehead, here.

I went out with a guy once who got to the restaurant before I did, didn't bother standing when I got to the table,

Interesting. I got to the restaurant first last week and wasn't sure what the protocol was on that... "luckily" she saved me the trouble of figuring it out by not showing up.

just simply wouldn't look me in the eye when they talked to me.

Yeah, far be it for a guy to be a little insecure or uncomfortable looking a person they just met in the eye.

Clearly he doesn't deserve to exist or be happy.

Raiwen wrote:

Sarvis wrote:In the end, even when you find that someone special she's probably going to leave you for someone else in a couple years.

This is just self-indulgent, sarcastic, BS. If you really believe this, then maybe you should stop looking, grease up the hand, and forget about women. Hell.. you might find more luck being gay.

That is the impression the book left me with.

Oh, and remember everyone: This thread is not "How can I pick up women" it's "why was this book recommended when it paints such a depressing picture of dating and relationships that I don't want to be part of it?" So for all of you saying how I'm getting defensive over the advice again... you MAY be missing the point here. I don't know many people who take unasked for advice well, especially when it once again comes from a point of assuming the worst about me.

Ashiwi did you just tell Sarvis:
"don't be afraid to start a real conversation about real topics"
you are cruel!

Ambar wrote:I lost my last grandparent at age 9 .. o woe is me! (I really did but come ON)

Wow, it doesn't make you sad to think about dead family members? That's a little... well, cold.

Basing your future on a book like this is really .. dumb. We (women) are real, flash and blood. We don't want players, yes players win a lot .. by women who want to be played! real women don't fall for that crap or want it.

Distinctly NOT the impression the book gives.

The Game wrote:
Some girls are different.

That's what Marko thought. After everything he'd seen during Mystery's Workshop, he was in no way a convert. Goca wasn't like those other girls, he insisted. She came from a good family, she was well-educated, and she had morals, unlike that materialistic club trash.

I'd heard it all before from dozens of guys. And I'd heard just as many intelligent women say, "That wouldn't work on me," when I told them about the community. Yet minutes or hours later, I'd see them exchanging phone numbers-or saliva-with one of the boys. The smarter a girl is, the better it works. Party girls with attention deficit disorder generally don't stick around to hear the routines. A more perceptive, worldly, or educated girl will listen and think, and soon find herself ensnared.

And so it was tat Mystery and I found ourselves out on New Year's Eve with marco and his one-itis, Goca... she seemed like a bright, successful, well-bred girl... she did look like the marrying kind.

*snip*



After dinner, Mystery and I terrorized the two-room restaurant, dancing with the old men, performing magic trips for the waiters, and flirting indiscriminately with the married women. When we returned to the table glowing, Goca's eyes met mine; for a moment they seemed to sparkle, as if searching for something in my gaze. I could swear it was an IOI.

That night, I was awoken by a warm body climbing under the covers. It was my turn to share the bed with Marko, but this wasn't Marko. It was a woman's body. I felt a pair of warm hands caress my newly shaven skull.

"Goca?!"

Well, I'm sure you can guess how THAT ends.

Life is not about how much game you can play, it is about how meaningful your life is and can be.

This all seems so familiar, the same tactics used whenever you want advice .. whether it is how to find a job, how to invest, or how to *pick up chicks* Everyone jumps in to give you advice and you either take it from someone who doesn't know what the hell they are talking about or you tell everyone how wrong they are, you are different, we don't understand .. woe is me ..

Like I said in my last post, I wasn't asking for advice on how to pick up chicks here.

This is more about why the above passage is supposed to be a good thing for those of us who still had a little faith in humanity.

If you were expecting this book to reaffirm your faith in humanity then you are even more hopeless than I thought.

EDIT 7/22/09: IT DOESN'T GET ANY BETTER FROM HERE. JUST A LOT OF THE SAME CRAP. SERIOUSLY, THERE MUST BE SOMETHING BETTER FOR YOU TO DO WITH YOUR TIME.

The book says nothing you couldn't figure out on your own via observation.

There are plenty of women who play their own mind games night after night, in order to get free drinks, money, rent, or cars. There is an underlying science to all this stuff. Unfortunately, unless you can figure it out on your own, you're left following a line-by-line recipe created by someone else.

It's up to you how shallow or in-depth you wish to be. If you want to fuck any random, hot girl that happens your way, then by all means... go to one of those workshops or whatever. If you want something more meaningful, then I suggest you keep looking within yourself.

Oh, and there are more intelligent ways of augmenting your point or refuting someone else's than sarcasm. From just this thread alone, it seems that's the only literary tactic you've been reaching for from your grab bag of tricks.

Ashiwi wrote:Sarvis, forget all that other stuff. What Dartan wanted you to pay attention to is how men talk to women in order to make a favorable, positive impression on them.

Seriously... it's all about how you present yourself. Confidence and good conversation will get you a long way.

something dartan may have forgotten... soap and water goes a long way also!

Raiwen wrote: If you want something more meaningful, then I suggest you keep looking within yourself.

This book makes it pretty hard to think something more meaningful is actually possible.

Corth: I wasn't looking for it to reaffirm anything, I just didn't expect it to be destructive.

Sarvis wrote:This book makes it pretty hard to think something more meaningful is actually possible.

The book is wrong in that regard. Or rather your generalization based upon that book is flawed. Just because you're having a hard time finding someone doesn't mean it's difficult for everyone. Nor, does it mean if other people find relationships, that they obtained them through the tactics in the book. Therefore, your comment above makes no sense.

Your whole reasoning is flawed, and unless you start to produce more content in this thread other than "woe is me" undertones, then I'm seriously going to start questioning your intelligence. There is no way a rational person could possibly think the world revolves around the edicts of one such volume of literary masterpiece. So either you're irrational, or you're playing some kind of "feel sorry for me" game, or perhaps you're just screwing with our minds in some sick and twisted fantasy of yours.

Whatever it is, this thread is losing its appeal very fast.

Sarvis wrote:I wasn't looking for it to reaffirm anything, I just didn't expect it to be destructive.

We should organize everyone and have it burned..

Seriously, its not a fucking technical manual for finding a good woman. I certainly never tried to manipulate my wife in any way and someone I got her to like me.

Why do you care what the book said?

EDIT 7/22/09: YOU WERE WARNED...

I've just read this thread. I'd say you guys are being pretty seriously trolled...

Corth wrote:

Sarvis wrote:I wasn't looking for it to reaffirm anything, I just didn't expect it to be destructive.

We should organize everyone and have it burned..

Seriously, its not a fucking technical manual for finding a good woman. I certainly never tried to manipulate my wife in any way and someone I got her to like me.

Why do you care what the book said?

Corth Sarvis isn't a lawyer he can't threaten to sue a girl if she doesn't marry him. Please provide only advice that Sarvis can follow!

Corth wrote:

Sarvis wrote:I wasn't looking for it to reaffirm anything, I just didn't expect it to be destructive.

We should organize everyone and have it burned..

Seriously, its not a fucking technical manual for finding a good woman. I certainly never tried to manipulate my wife in any way and someone I got her to like me.

Why do you care what the book said?

It's a book about what guys like me (and Style sounded a LOT like me at the beginning) need to go through to start meeting women and dating.

In contrast the book frequently talks about guys who are naturally attractive to women, so you're likely one of them. They don't need to learn hypnotic suggestions to get women to pay attention, one guy can reportedly just look at a woman and she'll follow him to a corner to make out.

Either that or you tripped the "he's a lawyer so one day he'll be rich" trigger and she's just hanging on for the cash. *shrug*

Still funny that when I'm being convinced through this book and recent events that women basically suck everyone's keeping the focus on how much I suck. Still waiting for anyone to actually pay enough attention to see what I'm saying here... and I wonder why you guys never seem to get my arguments!

Raiwen wrote:

Sarvis wrote:This book makes it pretty hard to think something more meaningful is actually possible.

The book is wrong in that regard. Or rather your generalization based upon that book is flawed. Just because you're having a hard time finding someone doesn't mean it's difficult for everyone. Nor, does it mean if other people find relationships, that they obtained them through the tactics in the book. Therefore, your comment above makes no sense.

Read the passage I quoted above. Marko tries to get a women going the normal route. A smart, attractive women who seems to be the "marrying type." Five minutes of just WATCHING style and she's in his bed that night.

Oh, and if you've been paying attention to other threads... yeah, let's just say that dating never seems to go anywhere for me. From the girl who just wouldn't tell me she didn't want to go out again, to one who may have just been leading me on for money, to the model who stood me up last week... I've certainly got no evidence in real life that the book is wrong.

Your whole reasoning is flawed, and unless you start to produce more content in this thread other than "woe is me" undertones, then I'm seriously going to start questioning your intelligence.

Yeah, you do that.

Oh, and meanwhile no one here has produced any evidence I'm wrong. Ash gave me a list of minor violations that will instantaneously disqualify a man (while STILL letting him buy her an expensive dinner no doubt) that ultimately are a little shallow (oh noes, he's not dressed well enough!)

There is no way a rational person could possibly think the world revolves around the edicts of one such volume of literary masterpiece. So either you're irrational, or you're playing some kind of "feel sorry for me" game, or perhaps you're just screwing with our minds in some sick and twisted fantasy of yours.

Whatever it is, this thread is losing its appeal very fast.

Then stop posting. I never said I was being rational either, I was in a pretty bad mood before I started reading the book and I'm worse now. You may noticed I started the thread asking why that book was recommended when it basically made me feel like shit.

Sarvis wrote:I was in a pretty bad mood before I started reading the book and I'm worse now. You may noticed I started the thread asking why that book was recommended when it basically made me feel like shit.

Woah. You followed a recommendation from Dartan and now you're surprised you feel like shit? Damn man, you really must be a troll.

shalath wrote:

Sarvis wrote:I was in a pretty bad mood before I started reading the book and I'm worse now. You may noticed I started the thread asking why that book was recommended when it basically made me feel like shit.

Woah. You followed a recommendation from Dartan and now you're surprised you feel like shit? Damn man, you really must be a troll.

Dalar... and what the fuck does that have to do with trolling anyway?

Sarvis wrote:It's a book about what guys like me (and Style sounded a LOT like me at the beginning) need to go through to start meeting women and dating.

In contrast the book frequently talks about guys who are naturally attractive to women, so you're likely one of them. They don't need to learn hypnotic suggestions to get women to pay attention, one guy can reportedly just look at a woman and she'll follow him to a corner to make out.

And you believed all this crap? The second you find a book with fancy character names like 'style' and 'mystery', you lose all of that skepticism? Wow...

I guess you're right Sarvis. The book obviously was a manual for you to follow, and outside of that you should lose all faith in humanity.

Corth wrote:

Sarvis wrote:It's a book about what guys like me (and Style sounded a LOT like me at the beginning) need to go through to start meeting women and dating.

In contrast the book frequently talks about guys who are naturally attractive to women, so you're likely one of them. They don't need to learn hypnotic suggestions to get women to pay attention, one guy can reportedly just look at a woman and she'll follow him to a corner to make out.

And you believed all this crap? The second you find a book with fancy character names like 'style' and 'mystery', you lose all of that skepticism? Wow...

So you're saying I shouldn't listen to anything said by someone with a wierd name, Corth? ;)

Really though, that's the best point anyone's made so far. However the book is presented as a true story, and some facts match up with other sources. For instance Strauss and Lisa did date for a while, until she left him for someone else anyway. There are also reviews on the book saying how helpful it was... probably by guys who don't mind thinking of women as easily manipulated and shallow.

"The Burning Bed" was a true story.

Now that I know that all men abuse women so badly that women have to douse the drunk bastards in gasoline in their sleep and burn their houses down, I'm so tickled I've spent my last few years not dating.

I'd lose more good furniture that way.

Ashiwi wrote:"The Burning Bed" was a true story.

Now that I know that all men abuse women so badly that women have to douse the drunk bastards in gasoline in their sleep and burn their houses down, I'm so tickled I've spent my last few years not dating.

I'd lose more good furniture that way.

I'm assuming "The Burning Bed" was about one couple. "The Game" is about the hundreds of women Style met that acted this way and responded to his techniques.

Different sample size, you see?

It's funny though. There's a lot of books about women with abusive and cheating husbands, but not many about women with honest, caring husbands. Doesn't that really agree with The Game presenting women as going for "alpha males" and men who don't really care about women? Not many books about women and guys like me who actually respect (or respected) women.

Fuck, I had one woman break a date with me because her ex-boyfriend showed up at her apartment. She was afraid he'd beat her, so she decided to just get back together with him.

Sarvis wrote:I'm assuming "The Burning Bed" was about one couple. "The Game" is about the hundreds of women Style met that acted this way and responded to his techniques.

Different sample size, you see?

It's funny though. There's a lot of books about women with abusive and cheating husbands, but not many about women with honest, caring husbands. Doesn't that really agree with The Game presenting women as going for "alpha males" and men who don't really care about women? Not many books about women and guys like me who actually respect (or respected) women.

Fuck, I had one woman break a date with me because her ex-boyfriend showed up at her apartment. She was afraid he'd beat her, so she decided to just get back together with him.

omg.... it was soooo obvious.... SIZE DOES MATTER!

Ugh. Sorry, I meant to just let this drop but now I'm all annoyed and need to vent.

So mixed in with this book, and losing Kayla (which yes I'm still hurting over a little) was meeting a this girl.

We met a couple weeks ago at a bar, and she texted me the next day. I called back and we talked on the phone for over an hour, then made plans for that Monday. Plans which she canceled.

She called me back later that night, and we talked for a while again and made plans for that Friday... which she again canceled. Ok, so yeah she canceled twice but had a good excuse both times so I let it go.

She called me Saturday to make plans for Sunday, we talked for an hour or so again and I went to bed looking forward to finally getting together. The next day she texts me to find out the plans, then texts me again an hour before we were going to meet to confirm... then she fails to show up. At all, no call, no explanation... nothing.

WHAT THE FUCK!?

Today's her birthday, so I texted her a quick happy birthday message (I know, weak move but I was giving her the benefit of the doubt that something had happened... and said as much in the message) and she replies back "who is this?" So she's entirely deleted me from her phone and everything. I mean what the hell? If she didn't want to go out with me why did she call me to make the date? And confirm it twice?

And why the fuck is it that every woman I meet does this to me? Just once I'd like the girl to say "Sorry, I just don't want to see you." Is that so fucking hard?

How sad is it that my big hope for future relationships is an honest breakup?

You're too nice.

When you're "too" nice, it comes across as being weak and/or needy.

Be nice, but stand up for yourself.

Btw..

You just lost

Congratulations, you just won.

Sarvis wrote:This almost perfectly describes Mystery, the master pickup artist who initiates Neil (aka Style) into the pickup artist (PUA) lifestyle. Throughout the book Mystery puts on a great game, picks up the most beautiful women... and then mistreats them until they leave, only to follow this up with a massive emotional meltdown that nearly ends with suicide. This, apparently, is the kind of man women are attracted to.

If he knows the right lines, tricks, games and hypnotic wordplay.

Therein lies the problem for me. While the PUA community will tell you it's all about building and becoming confident, I actually saw very little confidence from any of the people in this book. It's more about a rote skillset to be mastered than actual self-improvement, and in some ways it almost seems immoral. From lying about fights as a conversation starter to using psychological tricks to convince credulous women psychic abilities are real the skills are largely ones I would hesitate to use. They talk about the necessity of projecting your value, while having so little faith in themselves that they resort to magic tricks to hold the interest of their target.

Yet, it seems to BE a necessity.

I think I can explain this with a fair clarity. People appreciate skill and effort. Really, just one or the other will do. If you don't have one, you'd better have the other. Finally, 'pickup artists' aren't the only people that others find attractive.