Pirates

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avak
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Pirates

Postby avak » Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:14 pm

Obviously the morning news was that the American captain was rescued in dramatic fashion. That news was quickly followed by news that the pirates are going to make us (America) pay. And then the consequent back and forth over how to protect ourselves and stop this piracy madness.

So, I just wanted to put it out there to see what people here think the solution(s) might be.

It would seem to me that one fundamental problem is that the international shipping companies are not taking the safety of their crews and cargo very seriously. I would guess that the cost of putting security on board every ship would be staggering, but compared to ransoms and military action??

So then why have a military intervention? I would say that if the private company doesn't reasonably secure the crew and cargo then we (taxpayers) have no reason to come in and save the day. Just like paying a huge ransom, now that is the expected response.
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Re: Pirates

Postby Sarvis » Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:27 pm

avak wrote: And then the consequent back and forth over how to protect ourselves and stop this piracy madness.


Ninjas!
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Re: Pirates

Postby Botef » Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:28 pm

It might make future incidents more hostile, but this kind of international response is warranted and needed. Companies who own these vessels paying out ransoms obviously isn't helping matters, and has probably created more incentive for pirate groups. My guess is that security on these vessels is minimal more because of laws and regulations they face at every port of entry rather than the expense of arming their crew.

The real news today was this though:

Image
Sunamit group-says 'imrex west, tibek backstab touk i think his name is on entry'
// Post Count +1
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Re: Pirates

Postby avak » Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:35 pm

So are you saying that we request special polar bear ninjas on all ships?

And I read this after posting...pretty interesting information:
http://ask.metafilter.com/107509/how-do-pirates-hijack-a-supertanker
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Re: Pirates

Postby Corth » Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:44 pm

Obviously it would be enormously expensive if every vessel had to carry security on board. These pirates attack in small fast ships in groups of 4-10 each armed to the teeth. To be just even the odds would require spending something like $3,000 or so per day in security, which might be feasible for a huge container ship renting out at $50,000 per day, but perhaps not so feasible for yachts, tugboats, and the tens of thousands of other other smaller vessels that travel in that area of the world every year.

The US policy has always been to not negotiate with kidnappers. The theory is that if you pay a ransom once, then you are encouraging the criminals to keep acting in such a manner - crime pays. I like how the administration handled the most recent incident. These pirates do not have any grand political cause. They are in it for the money. They now understand that they will not receive ransom when they take a US flagged ship. Rather, they will likely be killed. If they are smart they will continue to target european ships instead.

This is also one situation where America's tendency to disproportionately respond when attacked is helpful. The pirates have been operating for a couple of years now without any organized response on the part of governments. Just a single american is taken hostage and already they are talking about coordinated international actions against the pirates and their strongholds. I would imagine that this is the last things they want - and will likely think twice about antagonizing the Americans again. Piracy has been relatively safe and lucrative and if anyone is in charge - essentially a gang leader - he would be smart to back off a bit for a few weeks and let this blow over before the entire industry is blown up.

One last comment. I believe this is perhaps one of the few situations where something substantial can actually get done by international organizations such as the UN. Its not like there is much political support for piracy. Rogue countries like North Korea and Iran can get protection in the security council, but I doubt the Somali pirates have much of a chance. Its a good opportunity for internationalists to show that countries can cooperate to carry out shared goals.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Re: Pirates

Postby kiryan » Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:46 pm

I have several problems with this whole thing.

1) The captain jumped off the ship and was allowed to be recaptured. Complete and utter bullshit, our military (or the president) was not ready for that scenario and that is crap.

2) I'm uncomfortable with the idea of a guy who ran against wars taking us into a new one. I think its absolutely the right thing to do, but it reminds me of GWB pledging a non interventionist administration then going ape shit after 9/11.

3) The escalation of violence (what you allude too). Was that a good idea. No, but it is the necessary response to the situation off the Somali coast. Notice France had finally had enough as well and staged their own rescue a day or so earlier.

4) Why this all happened... blame the UN, blame the rest of the world. Seriously why bother having an international government if its only purpose is to give 3rd world countries with nothing a forum to argue on. Somali's government hasn't existed in what 18 years. We have known that, the world has known that. Piracy has been rampant in internatinoal waters off somalia for at least 2 years?

The world, the UN failed to address this situation and the US stayed out of it (for once). Now the problem has festered long enough to become ugly. The world hates us when we do something, and when we don't do anything no one picks up the slack. Obama in Europe was spot on when he said, fine you hate us we are changing, but you need to give us some credit for the good we are already doing.

I could throw some stuff in here about Bill Clinton running away after Black Hawk Down, or stuff in here about how this is what is known as "financial jihad" (read about the barbary pirates, Ben Franklen and John Adams if you want to see how this went down the first time), but I blame the supposed "world government" on this problem. If there is a lawless country, who's responsibility is it to bring law back to it... or at least preserve law in the shared / international waters around it.
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Re: Pirates

Postby Raiwen » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:09 pm

Obviously, global warming is being reversed because of the increased pirate activity.

Proof:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spa ... al_warming
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Re: Pirates

Postby Dugmaren » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:15 pm

YAAARRR!!!!!
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Re: Pirates

Postby oteb » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:16 pm

My uncle is a captain of a cargo ship and is mainly operating between SE Asia and Australia. Its one of the pirate hotspots. He said that it would be illegal to arm merchant vessels and moreover LLoyds does not insure armed ships. During a pirate attack they weld the doors to quarters and call for backup. Then its just a race between coastal guard and pirates trying to force open reinforced doors welded shut. In last 10 years he was subject to over 20 pirate attacks out of which only 1 was successful. I guess its just not worth it for owners of a ship to arm it and they rather insure themselves and cough up 1 million every now and then.
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Re: Pirates

Postby kiryan » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:22 pm

Interesting.

Why don't the pirates just bring enough explosives to blow a hole in the hull instead of worrying about having direct hostages?
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Re: Pirates

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:10 am

The problem with piracy is not one of law enforcement or military action (alone). It's what you get when you drive a new Mercedes Benz slowly through a destitute neighborhood, then park it with your laptop, cell phone, and wallet sitting on the back seat.

When someone smashes the window, takes your stuff, and steals your rims, how can you really blame them?

If the world wants security in trade lanes, they need to create stability in the nations along the trade lanes. Alternatively, that Mercedes Benz you parked in the ghetto better have an armed security guard.
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Re: Pirates

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:26 pm

oteb wrote:My uncle is a captain of a cargo ship and is mainly operating between SE Asia and Australia. Its one of the pirate hotspots. He said that it would be illegal to arm merchant vessels and moreover LLoyds does not insure armed ships. During a pirate attack they weld the doors to quarters and call for backup. Then its just a race between coastal guard and pirates trying to force open reinforced doors welded shut. In last 10 years he was subject to over 20 pirate attacks out of which only 1 was successful. I guess its just not worth it for owners of a ship to arm it and they rather insure themselves and cough up 1 million every now and then.


Thats kind of funny Oteb, my grandfather was a captain of a cargo ship as well. Although, when he told the stories, the pirates would come on the ship and he'd stare them down until they retreated to their boat, and then he'd invite them back on board for dinner.

Your story, however, seems to be more helpful for the discussion.
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Re: Pirates

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:30 pm

kiryan wrote:I have several problems with this whole thing.

1) The captain jumped off the ship and was allowed to be recaptured. Complete and utter bullshit, our military (or the president) was not ready for that scenario and that is crap.


My guess would be because the President had not yet authorized use of lethal force. I'm sure the administration has learned from this mistake and will not repeat it. It's expected that an administration that does not believe in the power of the individual would not immediately consider the possibility that an American hostage would try to escape or rescue himself.

I'm sure they won't make that mistake again. Hopefully the good captain taught the administration a lesson in what to expect from Americans.
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Re: Pirates

Postby Corth » Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:02 pm

Heh.. the escape was unexpected and probably took less than a minute to play out. There was no time to organize a response like the simultaneous 3-sniper assault that ultimately ended the confrontation. There was undoubtedly a fair amount of confusion and I'm sure that nobody wanted to act prematurely and end up worsening the situation. This is the type of thing where its easy in hindsight to say they should have acted but at the time I'm sure it was much more difficult. Moreover, the final result was as good as it could have been. No complaints here on how it was handled.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Pirates

Postby Pril » Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:21 pm

The best of WTF statments of '06
--------------------------------------------------------
Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'
Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'
Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Re: Pirates

Postby oteb » Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:24 pm

Dugmaren wrote:YAAARRR!!!!!


To err is human, to ARRRR is pirate!
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Re: Pirates

Postby Ragorn » Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:34 pm

Image

Rehosted on imageshack.
Last edited by Ragorn on Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Pirates

Postby Sarvis » Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:35 pm

Ragorn wrote:Image



I have to admit I laughed. Out loud.
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Re: Pirates

Postby Raiwen » Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:09 pm

Ragorn wrote:http://web2.twitpic.com/img/5561448-85e7cf32c77c22cb23556c9dbd1091f5.49e4d715-full.jpg

it's gone
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Re: Pirates

Postby Corth » Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:16 pm

pwned by teh internets.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Re: Pirates

Postby Ashiwi » Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:29 pm

Dude... Rags... The most tremendous high five to you!

The sound I just made of my desk was probably reminiscent of the sound you would hear if a third grader snorted milk up through his nose at lunch while laughing. I'm at work, so prairie-dogging spiked tremendously.

I didn't even bother trying to explain. I live in Oklahoma.
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Re: Pirates

Postby Pril » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:20 pm

The best of WTF statments of '06

--------------------------------------------------------

Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Re: Pirates

Postby kiryan » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:36 pm

lol i love it ragorn. better copyright it before AP steals it!

So this is our amazing military? They aren't ready for these kinds of situations until it happens the first time? You have 100,200,500 people on a ship in the middle of the ocean doing what... pulling their puds?

We have grown soft. First a reporter throws 2, not 1, but 2 shoes at the president of the united states and then you have the media celebrate that we got it right the second time.

I'm not really outraged, but I think we should call it like it is. They did not have the order, and the weren't prepared. They fortunately got a second chance this time.
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Re: Pirates

Postby Ragorn » Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:14 am

totally pwned by oteb earlier in the thread :(
Last edited by Ragorn on Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pirates

Postby oteb » Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:22 am

Woot. Ragorn has me on ignore.
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Re: Pirates

Postby ssar » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:41 am

Lol Rags, that graph is awesome.

Yea, those are great shots, by anyone's standards, even if the range was relatively close.

Out on the sea from a different vessel.. nice!
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Re: Pirates

Postby Ragorn » Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:38 pm

oteb wrote:Woot. Ragorn has me on ignore.

Huh? I do not :P

Edit: Oh, rofl... I guess I didn't see you post the same thing earlier in the thread. Sorry oteb :P To be fair, I posted that after just coming back from happy hour...
Last edited by Ragorn on Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pirates

Postby Corth » Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:04 pm

MacGyver would hook a big ass battery up to those steel doors and zap the fuckers.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Re: Pirates

Postby Gormal » Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:46 pm

I hear Obama invented the Navy. He's so awesome *swoon*
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Re: Pirates

Postby Ragorn » Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:17 pm

You're just mad that The Uniter has zero confirmed pirate kills.

I heard that Obama himself was holding the sniper rifle.
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Re: Pirates

Postby kiryan » Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:32 pm

I heard he was also the brave captain who jumped overboard!
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Re: Pirates

Postby Sarvis » Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:36 pm

teflor the ranger wrote: It's expected that an administration that does not believe in the power of the individual would not immediately consider the possibility that an American hostage would try to escape or rescue himself.


You're flat-out wrong on this, Teffie. Obama and the military believed so strongly in the power of the individual they did not think he would need help.
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Re: Pirates

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:52 pm

Corth wrote:Heh.. the escape was unexpected and probably took less than a minute to play out. There was no time to organize a response like the simultaneous 3-sniper assault that ultimately ended the confrontation. There was undoubtedly a fair amount of confusion and I'm sure that nobody wanted to act prematurely and end up worsening the situation. This is the type of thing where its easy in hindsight to say they should have acted but at the time I'm sure it was much more difficult. Moreover, the final result was as good as it could have been. No complaints here on how it was handled.


When a situation like this occurs, Corth, there are already scopes on target (where available). The only confusion is whether or not they are allowed to fire. (or of course, the hostage is in the way. which, from what I understand he was clear)
Last edited by teflor the ranger on Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pirates

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:59 pm

Sarvis wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote: It's expected that an administration that does not believe in the power of the individual would not immediately consider the possibility that an American hostage would try to escape or rescue himself.


You're flat-out wrong on this, Teffie. Obama and the military believed so strongly in the power of the individual they did not think he would need help.


So they brought the ship so that the sailors could watch a fellow American in action? I guess movies are getting expensive thanks to blu-ray.
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Re: Pirates

Postby Sarvis » Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:01 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote: It's expected that an administration that does not believe in the power of the individual would not immediately consider the possibility that an American hostage would try to escape or rescue himself.


You're flat-out wrong on this, Teffie. Obama and the military believed so strongly in the power of the individual they did not think he would need help.


So they brought the ship so that the sailors could watch a fellow American in action? I guess movies are getting expensive thanks to blu-ray.


Well they didn't expect the guy to swim all the way to shore. Warm blankets and some hot chocolate had long since been prepared. Not Obama's fault the individual needed help.
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Re: Pirates

Postby Raiwen » Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:25 pm

Sarvis wrote:Well they didn't expect the guy to swim all the way to shore. Warm blankets and some hot chocolate had long since been prepared. Not Obama's fault the individual needed help.

Arm chair politics at it's best.
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Re: Pirates

Postby ssar » Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:31 am

SOMALIAN PIRATES ANNOUNCE 30 REDUNDANCIES

In a further sign of the global economic downturn, Somalian pirates have been forced to reduce headcount.

Analysts blame the reduction in retail activity, which in turn has led to less goods being shipped past their top secret hidden pirate base (in the port of Eyl in Somalia, warehouse B).

"This has been a difficult decision” commented a one-eyed gang leader, “But we need to realign our structure to cope with worsening market conditions. Arr.”

One pirate, who wished to remain anonymous, said: “This is going to hit my family hard. My only income so far this year has been $400,000 in ransom money. There just isn't any piracy work here now. I'll have to become a plumber. I've heard it pays really well. Arr.”

The IUP (International Union of Pirates) has today pledged to lobby governments worldwide to ensure more boats are sent past Somalia, to avoid the death of what was once a booming industry. “Some pirate gangs are not complying with the current employment regulations” said a one-legged union spokesman “when we negotiated for severance packages we meant cash not limbs. It’s just not good enough. Arr.”
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Re: Pirates

Postby Gormal » Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:43 pm

Ragorn wrote:You're just mad that The Uniter has zero confirmed pirate kills.

I heard that Obama himself was holding the sniper rifle.


It just makes me sad that this is where the liberal mind jumps to first. I'd make a joke about voting for hope but there would only be a "snappy" comeback that dodges the issue of leftists practically leaping at the chance to suck some black presidential cock.
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Re: Pirates

Postby Ragorn » Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:50 pm

Image

What do you mean, "jumps to first?" You're the one who came into this thread and started kvetching about Obama for no good reason :)
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Re: Pirates

Postby Gormal » Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:10 pm

Um.... you made an Obama joke dude. How in any way does me commenting on it make me the one who brought it up.
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Re: Pirates

Postby Corth » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:00 am

Ragorn wrote:Image

Rehosted on imageshack.


I can't take credit for this. Found a chart similar to Ragorn's showing clearly that global warming is responsible for a huge decrease in piracy.

Image
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Pirates

Postby Ragorn » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:33 am

Yeah, that chart is part of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
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