Cancelling my health insurance.

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kiryan
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Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby kiryan » Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:03 pm

I'm personally planning on dropping my health care insurance. My health insurance just got a lot more expensive. It is running $250 a pay period and I'm still responsible for like a 30% copay. I was figuring my healthcare costs for the upcoming year and its a ridiculous amount of money. I'll be better off not having insurance. I'm going to buy a catastrophe type policy with like a $5,000 deductible that will cover things like cancer or heart / brain surgery ect, but not going to use health insurance like most people do these days...

My sister has health insurance and a healthcare spending account. She has been trying to negotiate fees for service and they ask her if she has insurance, if she has insurance they charge her maybe $500 dollars. If she lies and says she doesnt have insurance they will charge her $100. I've experienced this too. Emergency room visit out of state cost us $100 with "no insurance". My copay on an out of state emergency room visit would've been much more than that let alone the total bill.

In short, I can get a much better deal dropping my health insurance. I will also control our visits better instead of taking the kids in for every little thing just because it only costs $15 copay. I'm sure my wife will hate this, but that is just the way its going to be. We aren't going to get MRI's because someone had a really bad headache and the doctor wants to check for that .01% chance you are having an aneruysm. We aren't going to go in and get checkups just because the AMA thinks everyone needs a check up 1x a year. Not going to go to a dermatologist to get rid of a wart, I'll cut it out or go to walmart and get the freezeaway treatment.

I'm also planning on stopping the 2x yearly dental visits. I'm going to pick up some dental picks and I'll clean my kids teeth myself. Really, we are taught that all this stuff is highly skilled and requires years of training and licenses... how hard is it to scrape plaque off teeth and give your kid a fluroide rinse (or even a treatment if that can be done legally). You can get cavities done for $85 bucks these days so you're only issue is if you get a tooth knocked out or have to have some sort of oral surgery like wisdom teeth. Even wisdom teeth extractions can be had for $250 a tooth at insurance rates.

Vision... exam for like $50 bucks and frames / glasses for under $100... Why would you pay $300-400 a year for vision coverage?

Am I crazy? I feel crazy, but it just doesnt seem to make sense to me anymore to have health insurance / dental and vision.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:17 pm

Wow, your kids are sooooooo lucky.

So, anyone want to start a betting pool on Kiryan dying of an aneurism? Or infection from using improperly sterilized dental tools?

Shit, I let my dad cut my hair once and he managed to nearly take my ear off... so forgive me for not having confidence in you to provide adequate medical care for your brood.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Callarduran » Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:22 pm

While I'm not going to necessarily agree with you on things like dental or vision (bit more complicated than looking at your kid and saying Yep you're sick, have some orange juice), as far as canceling your overall health insurance...*shrug*

All insurance is, is risk transference. If you're willing to take on the risk, and you're allocating the money you would be spending on insurance into a fund that you can access when something is seriously wrong, and it works for you, then the more power to you.

It's not a risk I would be willing to take on, at least not at the moment.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby kiryan » Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:53 pm

Is health insurance today risk transferrance? practically speaking it seems to work more like a system that moves the costs around encouraging you to over spend than an insurance plan like you have for cars.

Who can argue against going to the doctor for $15 copay or getting a $5,000 MRI for a $30 speciailzed test copay? But when you add up your total healthcare spending and divide it out amongst your actual visits, you're probably spending more on average and going a lot more than you need to... because it seems cheap.

and btw, my kids are going to be lucky because they are learning how to think and evaluate instead of being sheep. They will also learn that you don't have to waste your money and be a pussy by going to the doctor everytime you cough.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:58 pm

kiryan wrote:Is health insurance today risk transferrance? practically speaking it seems to work more like a system that moves the costs around encouraging you to over spend than an insurance plan like you have for cars.

Who can argue against going to the doctor for $15 copay or getting a $5,000 MRI for a $30 speciailzed test copay? But when you add up your total healthcare spending and divide it out amongst your actual visits, you're probably spending more on average and going a lot more than you need to... because it seems cheap.

and btw, my kids are going to be lucky because they are learning how to think and evaluate instead of being sheep. They will also learn that you don't have to waste your money and be a pussy by going to the doctor everytime you cough.



Yeah, last time I tried to ignore a cough I ended up fighting bronchitis for 4 months straight. Funny thing about bronchitis: If you have it for more than a few weeks, it becomes chronic. So now I get the fun of going to the doctor every time I cough to get antibiotics, because it's about 90% likely to turn into bronchitis.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby kiryan » Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:07 pm

A cough that lasts for 4 weeks is a good reason to go the doctor. A cough that lasts 10 days is not. I'm not saying that I won't take my kids to the doctor, I'm just not going to take them over ever fever, scratchy throat or red bump.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:15 pm

kiryan wrote:A cough that lasts for 4 weeks is a good reason to go the doctor. A cough that lasts 10 days is not. I'm not saying that I won't take my kids to the doctor, I'm just not going to take them over ever fever, scratchy throat or red bump.


Kiryan, read again. 4 months, and it lasted that long _because_ I had ignored it too long. I go in after 5-7 days of coughing now, the doctor listens to my chest says "yep, sounds like an infection": and hands me antibiotics. The bronchitis is cleared within 3 days. Had I gone in after 5-7 days the first time, I wouldn't have suffered for 4 months and I wouldn't have chronic bronchitis now.

The point here is that you are taking risks with your health and your kids' health.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby kiryan » Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:00 pm

absolutely. I am taking risks and the lack of taking risks is what is broken in our society and I'll argue part of the reason everything costs so much.

We believe that its your duty to eliminate every single risk. Whether its going to the doctor because of a cough or leaving your kid in the car while you run into buy a soda. When someone didn't do everything possible to eliminate a risk we sue their f*king pants off. It is absolutely crazy. We overconsume as a culture because we don't want to be responsible for the results if we fail. We don't understand what good risk management is.. which is not 0 risk, its the right amount of risk for the situation given the cost.

There is this really interesting study / statistic. Like 35% of ceo's are dyslexic. THe theory is that dyslexic people can not spend the time to achieve perfection due to their condition so they become very good at prioritizing... very good at judging the risk vs reward of anythign from writing a science report to opening up a new line of business.

I did just buy the service contracts on a new washer and dryer. So I'm not just a risk taker who won't spend at all. I'm looking at buying a $1,000 50" plasma, but I'm not going to pay $350 to extend the warranty to 3 years on it. Its not a good enough value despite a reasonable chance that the TV will fail within 3-5 years.

--

As a rule, we are a pretty healthy family. If our health begins to slip, I'll re-evaluate our need to have others help subsidize the costs, I mean buy insurance.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:11 pm

kiryan wrote:We believe that its your duty to eliminate every single risk



Yes, yes it is. That's what being human is. We invented fire to reduce the risk of dying on a cold night or from parasites in our food. We invented shelter to reduce the risk of being eaten by wild animals or dying of exposure to the elements. We invented farming to reduce the risk of being unable to find food. We invented medicine to reduce the risk of dying to disease. We invented sterilization to reduce the risk of dumbass fathers giving their kids an infection using unsterilized dental equipment.

If you really don't want to reduce risk go live in a cave somewhere, otherwise you're just a giant hypocrite.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby kiryan » Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:13 pm

There is a difference between eliminating all risk and managing risk.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:15 pm

kiryan wrote:There is a difference between eliminating all risk and managing risk.


Only when you can't eliminate it.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Ashiwi » Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:32 pm

In some ways I agree with Kirayn.

Kiryan and his family are young, which typically equates to reduced risk. I'm rather surprised his premiums are as high as that considering their ages. Many people can do what he's doing and get away with it. My suggestion would be to really go through your high ded policy with a fine tooth comb, to find out exactly what you're being covered for and what you're not being covered for. Also, remember that if you give up insurance entirely and the unthinkable happens, that unthinkable thing is going to be uncovered by insurance for a minimum of a year once you get back into a policy, because it will then be a pre-existing condition.

I see the unthinkable way too often to be comfortable with the idea of giving up insurance on my family (if I was covering them at this time). Sit down with Laurel and go through your combined family medical history, in case there's something there you need to take into consideration.

You might also want to consider increase your uninsured motorist and medical coverages on your auto insurance. And definitely buff up your life insurance. A sudden occurrence of high-dollar illness will wipe out everything you own, and if you decease due to it, you'll want enough to keep Laurel and the kids afloat as they try to manage the bills you leave behind.

What you're doing can make perfect sense and pay off in the long run, but please keep a cushion for the 'just in case.' I'm sure you will, because you have more common sense than most.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby kiryan » Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:41 pm

I'm going to have health insurance... the kind that kicks in with a $5,000 or $10,000 deductible. True insurance for unexpected catastrophic events.

That should cover me for pre-existing conditions. Also, if you are with an organization big enough or government, they have to cover pre-existing conditions. Worst case scenario, I or Laurel could take a job with someone who will cover pre-existing conditions.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:49 pm

Ashiwi wrote:In some ways I agree with Kirayn.


Really? You agree with someone completely untrained buying sharp pointy objects and sticking them into a little kid's mouth? And you think THAT equates to "more common sense than most?"


EDIT: Look, Kiryan I grew up without health insurance. Looking back I see how lucky I was, but I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I have chronic problems I don't wish to go into as a result of not getting regular things like dental cleanings. I've had to sleep through asthma attacks because we couldn't afford medicine. You're not teaching your kids to be free thinkers and evaluate things, you are simply putting them at risk.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Kifle » Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:05 pm

I don't see any need for fixing the healthcare system (read: not just insurance). /sarcasm

This is what happens when you allow "capitalism" to control inelastic goods without proper competitive forces. The only reason I am for socialized healthcare rather than a strict private system is so the private sector will have "real" competition against their services. With an injection of competition, insurances prices would have to keep up until the socialized system became unattractive. Best case scenario, the medical community (read: corporation hospitals) would lower the prices on things like MRIs (seriously, this is just stupid), ER visits, etc. Again, I don't think the capitalism that is practiced in this country allows for fair prices to occur when dealing with companies who offer inelastic goods/services (electricity/water/healthcare).

Btw, I agree with you Kiryan. Going to the doctor that often is just retarded, and 9x out of 10, the cough is just a cough; 9x out of 10, the fever is just a passing bug; 9x out of 10, the stomach ache is from too much candy or something similar. You're better off with some "oh shit" insurance and just saving what you pay in insurance and use it if you need to on doctor visits. Stay away from unnecessary procedures like you said, and you'll probably end up saving money.

Dental.. I'm not so sure about that, but kids don't need wisdom teeth surgery (when necessary) until around 16-20 (or so), so you'll probably be fine without that until around then anyway. 1xyr check-ups are cheap enough, and if your kids are regular brushers, you probably won't have any extra procedures there either. Just makes sure none of them need braces before you cancel it.

Vision... stupid insurance unless you have expensive tastes and get good deals on frames/lenses (read: spend more insurance money than you pay in).
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby kiryan » Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:36 pm

There are definitely problems with the health care system. I'm not sure I'll agree that capitalism is at the root. The root problems are:

1. shortage of healthcare workers caused partially by licensing requirements
2. malpractice insurance
3. structure hides the true cost from the consumer
4. structure encourages acute care and over use of tests / prescriptions for profit motive
4a. higher reimbursements
4b. lower malpractice lawsuits
5. uninsured
6. obesity, diabetes and other such long term, high cost illnesses
7. underinsured

of these items, only #6 and #7 are not because of government.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:49 pm

kiryan wrote:There are definitely problems with the health care system. I'm not sure I'll agree that capitalism is at the root. The root problems are:

1. shortage of healthcare workers caused partially by licensing requirements
2. malpractice insurance
3. structure hides the true cost from the consumer
4. structure encourages acute care and over use of tests / prescriptions for profit motive
4a. higher reimbursements
4b. lower malpractice lawsuits
5. uninsured
6. obesity, diabetes and other such long term, high cost illnesses
7. underinsured

of these items, only #6 and #7 are not because of government.


Wait, what?

First of all 4 is hilarious since you're going to favor that yourself without insurance. You said already you didn't want to do regular checkups or get things checked out early, so you're basically going to wait until it's time for acute care.

How is malpractice insurance the government's fault? People wouldn't sue doctor's who hurt them if the government didn't exist? Pretty sure the government didn't come up with the structure either, you have the haphazard mix of companies who've tried to profit from medical necessity. Really, it's not the government causing people to be uninsured either, it's large corporations not wanting to offer benefits.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Desirsar » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:21 am

kiryan wrote:Not going to go to a dermatologist to get rid of a wart, I'll cut it out or go to walmart and get the freezeaway treatment.

Am I crazy?


Yes. Store brand salicylic acid from the grocery store applied at the frequency and in the amount indicated amount to zero pain and a 2-4 week treatment unless you're rubbing toads on your face regularly. I had two warts on each foot for almost two years recently, gave up on the crap gel I was using and bought the vial of acid, didn't really follow the directions and missed lots of doses, and they still went away in a couple months.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Corth » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:48 am

I get insurance through my wife's public sector job so its not an issue for me. Generally though when it comes to paying insurance I do things Kiryan's way. If its something that would wipe me out financially, I buy insurance. I don't buy things life trip insurance, for instance, because I can easily bare the cost of lost vacation money. Life insurance for myself and spouse is a must. Disability insurance. Malpractice insurance. I am in the process of buying a home so the bank will require I get homeowner's insurance - but I am also going to get a flood insurance policy that isn't required (I will live about a block from the bay waterfront in southern LI but it's not in a FEMA flood zone). If I had to pay for health insurance I would probably do exactly as Kiryan suggests. $5k or $10k won't wipe me out, but certainly 100k+ would hurt quite a bit.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Ambar » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:49 pm

What is the cost you did not pay per birth of each recent child? Hospital bills, anesthesia .. Last I checked birth of children is costy!

Not sure if insurance is extra for more children? I lucked out and get cheap great insurance for keeping the same job for 20 years and it is the same if I had 7 kids or none

I dunno cancelling insruance with all those kids? Are you sure? I'm certain he'll wait til after this one is born tho :P

I think at least one of those kids is in glasses? And maybe the three that are not his biologically are covered (or will be) under their birth father's insurance unless he gave up all parental rights? We don't know all the details :)
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby kiryan » Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:36 pm

Regardign warts. The first one I had laurel take one of our kids to the doctor for, $30 "specialist" copay plus they wanted to see him again to make sure it was gone (that would be another $30 copay). I've taken 5 more warts off my kids' and Laurel's feet in the past year using my leatherman and freezeaway for the tougher ones. I'm talking marble sized ones with root bases the size of a dime (definitely 2 doctor visit sized).

The reality is your body is a lot tougher than most of us believe. I had a 2" gash in my thigh deep into the fat layer that I just cleaned and bandaided together instead of going in for stitches.

--

Yes Ambar, going to cancel after the next baby is born and we get a month or so in and determine that it seems normal. A normal pregnancy delivery is only around $3k of which I'm probably going to be on the hook for at least $500 copay.

One of the kids does have glasses, but really, an eye exam is $50 bucks and glasses are often 2 pairs for $99. Its cheaper to private pay unless you get expensive contacts.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Ambar » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:18 pm

Hmm 3k seems a bit low but yall have had more kids than I have :) Thought avergae was 5-6k depending on where you live (barring no complications or c-sections, etc) Four years ago after the birth of my grandson, my daughter was hospitalized unexpectedly for 5 days after his birth and they kept him too .. she was still covered under my insurance being only 18 at the time so thank God I didn't have to pay that!

What about shots and well baby care, school physicals, etc

Yeah use the system :) Better to cancel the insurance after the need for it :)

I will thank you when my taxes come due :)

*hug*

Nothing personal at all, really .. your choice thru and thru .. I guess the systems are in place for a reason .. I will pay my insurance even if I dont need it, hope noone gets seriously ill .. huge chance to take with a big family.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby kiryan » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:45 pm

thanks for the well wishes and thoughts. we called ahead for the pricing on the birth and 3k is the expectation that they set. I thought briefly about using a midwife, but thats a risk I'm not willing to take.

as for shots... I'm not sure what I want to do. I suspect that I will continue to vaccinate the kids... especially because I won't have everyday type insurance. Vaccinations are relatively cheap if you don't see the doctor and get them done by a nurse. Still goign to be cheaper comig out of pocket than paying $500 a month so I get vaccinations at a subsidized $15-30 a visit.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Corth » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:12 pm

An obstetrician is a risk I wouldn't be willing to take. They are (reasonably) more concerned with covering their asses from malpractice liability than providing quality care. Case in point: 40-50% c-section rates in many areas of the country. Women who have had a c-section will undoubtedly tell you it was necessary in their case, but most of the time they were misinformed by their obstetrician. Midwife is a better option.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Ashiwi » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:15 pm

Just remember, I know you want more children, and depending on the type of policy you have to take out if Laurel gets pregnant again, the pregnancy could be considered pre-existing. Depends on if it's group or individual coverage, and what the state mandates are.

And yes, Sarvis, I would say that Kiryan has more common sense than most, and definitely more than some here... He's not talking about root planing and deep scaling. He's not talking about flap incisions. He's not talking about root canals. He's talking about the most basic types of cleaning, which you or I, or Kiryan, could easily do.

Children shouldn't need anything more than the most basic dental work if you teach them good dental hygiene, unless something is really wrong with their teeth. When things are REALLY wrong, a dental policy will typically only cover around 50% up to the maximum of maybe $2500.00 coverage.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:19 pm

Ashiwi wrote: He's talking about the most basic types of cleaning, which you or I, or Kiryan, could easily do.


Like I said, my dad once cut my ear while trying to give me a simple haircut... something substantially less complicated than cleaning the teeth of a tiny, squirming child.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Botef » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:52 pm

Even dentists slip once in awhile.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby kiryan » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:54 pm

I would probably not opt to drop health insurance if this was our first or second child, but we are pretty experienced by now. If I could have a midwife in the hospital, I'd do that, but if something goes wrong, I am unwilling to be 30 minutes away from getting the best possible treatment available (I'm talking time from leaving your house to actually being treated). I totally agree with you on obstreicians... the C-section rate in the USA is flat out ridiculous, but I'm also going to challenge the doctor if he determines one is needed. I'm not a sheep and laurel is learning how to question authority. I think the biggest argument against hospital births is the presence of antibiotic resistant bacteria. Some of the statistics on that are downright alarming.

Ashiwi per HIPAA, pregnancy is not a pre-existing condition.

I give my kids haircuts too, and 'gentle' would not be how I would describe my technique. Do you ever wonder if you try to eliminate too much pain, discomfort and suffering? Some is more than ok, some is necessary especially if you are any kind of a man.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:16 pm

kiryan wrote:I would probably not opt to drop health insurance if this was our first or second child, but we are pretty experienced by now. If I could have a midwife in the hospital, I'd do that, but if something goes wrong, I am unwilling to be 30 minutes away from getting the best possible treatment available (I'm talking time from leaving your house to actually being treated). I totally agree with you on obstreicians... the C-section rate in the USA is flat out ridiculous, but I'm also going to challenge the doctor if he determines one is needed. I'm not a sheep and laurel is learning how to question authority. I think the biggest argument against hospital births is the presence of antibiotic resistant bacteria. Some of the statistics on that are downright alarming.

Ashiwi per HIPAA, pregnancy is not a pre-existing condition.

I give my kids haircuts too, and 'gentle' would not be how I would describe my technique. Do you ever wonder if you try to eliminate too much pain, discomfort and suffering? Some is more than ok, some is necessary especially if you are any kind of a man.


Causing pain to make someone tougher only works until you go over the line and do something permanent. Chronic bronchitis because you ignored a cough is permanent. Periodontitis because of infrequent/improper teeth cleanings is permanent.

This do not strengthen anyone, they weaken them.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Ashiwi » Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:42 am

Pregnancy's not a pre-existing condition on employer funded group plans. If you have to take out an individual policy, or end up in an ASO type of policy, things are very different. ASOs don't even have to follow state mandates.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Corth » Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:45 am

Kiryan,

A certified nurse midwife (CNM) has hospital privileges and can even prescribe drugs. In most metropolitan areas there are midwives that practice out of hospitals. A good midwife will tell you that there are situations that require immediate referral to an MD. They are trained to recognize such situations.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Todrael » Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:16 am

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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby avak » Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:55 pm

As far as dental is concerned...take a yearly vacation to Mexico.

I've dropped all health insurance except for catastrophic, too. I haven't been in a doctor's office in a long time...I literally can't remember.

Healthy people need to understand that the risk equation does not favor them. Kiryan is absolutely right...people go to the doctor for -anything- that bothers them. It is staggering to me how much people go to the doctor.

So, when I pay for insurance I am paying for the average person in my age group. Well, f me! No thanks. And as I get older it only gets worse. So, Kiryan is paying $6k per year? That even seems low, but assuming that number, imagine what you can do by controlling that money yourself.

I think that ideally I would get a yearly physical/exam to identify any emerging issues. I also think I would trust the research and participate in the specific tests at the appropriate age (prostrate exam for example). I don't plan to look at general coverage again until my mid-forties.

It is really a simple equation. The insurers charge you what the actuaries determine the average patient in your age group costs plus a surcharge. I'll take that bet. However, I don't have kids and I'm not sure how much that would affect my decision.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:17 pm

avak wrote:As far as dental is concerned...take a yearly vacation to Mexico.

I've dropped all health insurance except for catastrophic, too. I haven't been in a doctor's office in a long time...I literally can't remember.

Healthy people need to understand that the risk equation does not favor them. Kiryan is absolutely right...people go to the doctor for -anything- that bothers them. It is staggering to me how much people go to the doctor.


You know what's really funny? People are lauding Kiryan's "common sense" when half of Kiryan's reason for dropping insurance is that he overuses it by going to the doctor, thus paying more in copays. Why is that funny, you ask? Because he could just NOT do that and remain safe! THAT would be common sense. It's what I do, and most of the people I know do.

So, when I pay for insurance I am paying for the average person in my age group. Well, f me! No thanks. And as I get older it only gets worse. So, Kiryan is paying $6k per year? That even seems low, but assuming that number, imagine what you can do by controlling that money yourself.


There are risks beyond age, such as car accidents.

I'll take that bet. However, I don't have kids and I'm not sure how much that would affect my decision.


It would affect my decision a LOT. I would never put my children at risk like that.

That said, individual insurance is so cheap through my company it's ridiculous not to get it... ($360/yr I think)
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Botef » Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:27 pm

lol yea, big difference between $360 a year and $300 a pay period.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:30 pm

True, but what's the good old conservative saying when it comes to welfare and such? If you can't afford that many kids don't have them? :P
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Corth » Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:36 pm

I'm not sure what you are getting at Sarvis. He is indeed insuring against catastrophic situations with a cheap high deductible policy. He has chosen to self-insure with respect to smaller issues. It doesn't seem to me that he cannot afford to care for his children. Rather, he has made a conscious decision that it would be cheaper and more effective to do it one way rather than another.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:05 pm

Corth wrote:I'm not sure what you are getting at Sarvis. He is indeed insuring against catastrophic situations with a cheap high deductible policy. He has chosen to self-insure with respect to smaller issues. It doesn't seem to me that he cannot afford to care for his children. Rather, he has made a conscious decision that it would be cheaper and more effective to do it one way rather than another.


No, he's made a conscious decision to put his children at risk because he can't afford proper insurance premiums. We'll see how well his gamble pays off next time he pays $500 for an ambulance after an accident. Anyone know how much a cast costs?
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:07 pm

Look, you're right. It is cheaper not to have health insurance overall.

As long as nothing goes wrong.

The problem is once something does go wrong you're screwed.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Ambar » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:06 pm

He has never once said he cannot afford the insurance, he just chooses not to have it after this baby is born, after he has gotten the use of the insurance so he doesnt have to foot the bill for the baby being born.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:09 pm

Ambar wrote:He has never once said he cannot afford the insurance, he just chooses not to have it after this baby is born, after he has gotten the use of the insurance so he doesnt have to foot the bill for the baby being born.


I don't believe for a second anyone would consider putting their kids at risk like this unless finances were getting tight for some reason.

Of course, it's telling that he needs insurance to have a kid but thinks he won't need it afterwards for some reason. It's almost as if medical insurance serves a purpose!
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Botef » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:21 pm

If you ask me its that line of thinking that is the fundamental problem with healthcare in America. Health insurance should be a safety net for emergency medical care, not a necessity for basic healthy living.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby kiryan » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:22 pm

I can't reduce my costs in any significant way on my current health plan. If I opt to not go to the doctor, then I still pay $500 bucks a month. I don't expect to have very many years where I have a catatrophe that is going to cost me more than $6,000 (my normal premiums)... or even standard care that exceeds $6,000 a year.

You are right though, I am choosing to put my family at more risk than in a "normal" approach to have more money. You can make a solid arguement that its because I can't afford my family. My argument is that the extra care is not needed and is not cost effective while the extra risk I am incurring is minor.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:25 pm

kiryan wrote:I can't reduce my costs in any significant way on my current health plan. If I opt to not go to the doctor, then I still pay $500 bucks a month. I don't expect to have very many years where I have a catatrophe that is going to cost me more than $6,000 (my normal premiums)... or even standard care that exceeds $6,000 a year.


"For those not covered by health insurance, a tonsillectomy -- with or without an adenoidectomy -- typically costs from $4,153 to $6,381, with an average cost of $5,442, according to Blue Cross Blue Shield of North Carolina. For example, a survey by the Minnesota Council of Health Plans found the average cost was $4,875 in that state." - http://www.costhelper.com/cost/health/t ... moval.html

Aren't tonsilectomies relatively common? That's one year of insurance right there...
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:27 pm

Botef wrote:If you ask me its that line of thinking that is the fundamental problem with healthcare in America. Health insurance should be a safety net for emergency medical care, not a necessity for basic healthy living.


In a way I agree with you, just not from the same direction. Proper healthcare just costs too much. It should be cheaper so that insurance isn't necessary. We should all have access to the preventative maintenance that would ensure we were healthy and less likely to need that emergency medical care.

The funny thing is that Americans are practically famous for not getting proper preventative treatment, thus upping the amount of emergency care we end up needing.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:29 pm

"From the institutional perspective, open appendectomy is the least expensive strategy, with an expected cost of $5,171, as compared with $6,118 for laparoscopic appendectomy." - http://www.springerlink.com/content/3d0mgce4788fl9eh/

Another year's insurance for another common surgery.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby kiryan » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:33 pm

I agree with that botef.

We also spend too many resources on eliminating every single risk and as a culture we judge you very harshly (criminally or civil) if you failed to take every "normal" precaution.

Leave your kid in the car on a cool day, child neglect because you made it more likely someone could kidnap your kid.
Tire pressure sensors in new cars because you might not inflate your tires properly.
An MRI because your "bad" headache might be an aneurysm.
80 million tests during pregnancy to make sure the baby is growing properly.

It all has a cost.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:43 pm

kiryan wrote:I agree with that botef.

We also spend too many resources on eliminating every single risk and as a culture we judge you very harshly (criminally or civil) if you failed to take every "normal" precaution.

Leave your kid in the car on a cool day, child neglect because you made it more likely someone could kidnap your kid.
Tire pressure sensors in new cars because you might not inflate your tires properly.
An MRI because your "bad" headache might be an aneurysm.
80 million tests during pregnancy to make sure the baby is growing properly.

It all has a cost.


Never heard of the first one, though most people will say something because even on a cool day a car can get pretty hot.
Never heard of the 2nd one either
The third, well... would you prefer to have an aneurism and NOT detect it?
No experience with 4, honestly... but what were the chances of baby and/or mother dying before we started doing all these tests?
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby kiryan » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:51 pm

Common? It is certainly not common among the people I ever known. I have a faint recollection that I had an associate who's family member had an appendectomy... I've never encountered one directly at work ect... Its a financial risk I am willing to take.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Alta » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:54 pm

Kiryan is forgetting that we have been extremely lucky. No broken bones. No C-sections. I don't ask for anestesia during child birth. My dad's motto is "get tough or die" and I am not tough emotionally, but I think physically I can be. When my 9 month old nephew and my father where over at our place, the baby knocked down a folding chair on top of himself. It wasn't very heavy, but he was crying. My reaction was to look and see if anything was wrong. I didn't jump up, just observed and when I realized he was fine, I picked up the chair. I didn't baby him because there was nothing wrong. I may have said "you're ok" or something like that. My dad and stepmother just laughed at him. I personally didnt find it that funny, but I remember growing up and that is how it was. You hurt yourself and you get laughed at for hurting yourself.
But I digress: The $6K/year is only covering the cost to keep basic health insurance. Then there is the $750 individual/$1500 family deductible and 20% (not 30%, kiryan.. that's with the COBRA insurance) coinsurance. The $3K cost to have a baby was estimated by my OB and included all prenatal care and to have the baby at a hospital, not c-section. I believe it also covers 2 ultrasounds as long as it's not the 3D ultrasound. It also included all bloodwork/basic tests they do during pregnancy. It will be unlikely that I will have a c-section... I've had 5 babies already, my mother had 9 and her mother had 5, none of which were c-section. But you never know. There could be a number of things wrong with a baby... maybe he'll have a lazy eye and we won't know until he's 9 months old and need an expensive eye surgery. We could have a child that has problems that won't show up until they a little older. Then it will be a pre-existing condition.
I'm a little wary of this decision. Though Kiryan's sister finds that without health insurance she pays less, I didn't get the same answers when we recently private paid my 3 OB appointments. It was a $300 cost for the appointments regardless of if I had insurance. They said they would give me the same 15% discount they gave to insurance companies. I asked what this discount was and they told me that because the insurance companies usually only "allow" 85% of the cost of an appointment, that is usually all they get paid. She said if I were private paying she would pass that "savings" to me. But when we took our 8 year old in for stitches, they charged $99 at urgent care to do the whole thing. When they ran it through my insurance, they charged them over $500. The insurance denied it (I didn't realize it was no longer in force... we've moved and I thought we had opted for COBRA insurance through Kiryan's old job) but if they hadn't, I would have paid a $200 deductible rather than the $99 non-insurance rate. These are the kinds of things that are making Kiryan want to drop insurance. Why would we be paying insurance premiums and twice as much for stitches than if we didn't have insurance at all? When it came time to remove the stitches, the local clinics wanted to charge $80. Now at this point, if we had insurance, we would have already paid the $200 deductible and this wouldn't have cost us a dime. So total cost with insurance would have been $200 and without would have been $99+$80, so a savings of $31 to not have insurance. However, if there are future instances that my son needs to go to urgent care, these would be covered 100% by the insurance. We did not opt to pay the $80 to remove the stiches. Instead, we sterilized our own scissors and tweezers and Kiryan removed them. He was very careful, asked if things were hurting, warned that something "might hurt" and it went very well. It took a good half hour to remove 5 stitches, which is longer than a doctor would take, but going down to the doctor and $80 saved, I'd say it was worth it. For one thing we are about to switch insurances and would have to work up to the new deductible on the new insurance anyway.

It's not that we can't afford to pay that much, the question is do we want to? His arguement is that we could put the $6K+ dollars he would spend on the insurance and literally private pay everything and still save money. If we took each child and adult in for a check up a year and paid privately, it would be about $1600. Lets say half needed to have a nurse appointment and get some immunizations. That would be about $300. Then lets say each child has an incident: stitches, cough, long lasting sore throat, something like that. Pretty much this never happens, but lets say it did. And lets say we pay about $200 for each of those instances. That would be about $1200. Perscriptions aren't covered by Kiryans healthplan, so we private pay those as is (pretty expensive for the one that needs an EpiPen and I need a thyroid medication.) I have to have my blood drawn to check my thyroid levels once a year, so lets say that's another $200. Now I think I've overstated the costs to private pay, actually, but with those figures, the total is $3300 per year to private pay. If I have a baby, that's another $3K, bringing us to $6300. Now if we had insurance, we would not only pay the $6,000 a year just to carry the insurance, but will pay first a $1500 family deductible and then 20% coinsurance. In our family's normal circumstances, it just doesn't make sense to pay $7500 +20% to have insurance. See, either way we are paying for care. We aren't suggesting not taking care of the children. But we are thinking that the most economical way to do it is to private pay. It won't matter much anyway. The US is going Canadian with healthcare and we will all be covered anyway. You just have to have 12 hours to wait at the hospital and 3 years to wait on the waiting list to get a doctor assigned to you. I can't imagine the nightmare of bureucracy after this thing starts up. I enjoyed this:

http://www.youtube.com/user/StevenCrowder?blend=2&ob=1

On a side note, Sarvis, seriously the haircutting story is rediculous. Tons of people cut their sons hair all the time and no one cuts ears. You have to be an idiot. Perhaps if your child is squirming and if they are, don't snip. But even adults going to a barber shop get their ears cut. I think I've had a snip at the back of my neck by mistake. Bled a little and I didn't return to Supercuts after that. But don't tell that story anymore. It makes you sound whiney.
The cough, on the other hand, fits into this discussion and is perfectly valid. You shouldn't wait 4 months because you will cause permanent damage. We aren't talking about waiting 4 months on a cough. We are talking about private paying the important things and not running in because of a sniffle. But, if there was a life threatening emergency and we had to have an ambulence/helicopter flight, etc, we need to have something in place. The dental care, I disagree with Kiryan. However, private pay may make sense in this case as well. I'd like to take the children in once a year for exams (I think every 6 months is ridiculous.) My first 2 children have had alot of cavities, crowns... their mouths were full of silver. My exhusband had the same thing growing up. I never had cavities until I was an adult and many of them are due to the fact that I grind my teeth while I sleep. My third one had my "strong" teeth, though his dental hygiene is no better than the others and has never had cavities. He did, however, have some rare thing with his tooth called "internal resorption" and basically had to have a root canal. Only to have the tooth fall out a year later because it was a baby tooth. However, I was told there could be permanent issues with the new adult tooth if we didn't do this, so we did it. The others are too young to say at this point, but both Kiryan and I are pretty lucky genetically and haven't had issues with our teeth. I think children should go in every year or two at least, have x-rays and cleanings. We could instead be vigilent about their dental care, have them use floride mouthwash rinses daily or weekly and check for plaque. I notice that the electric toothbrushes are amazing at cleaning teeth and the older 3 have those. But, I don't really think I have the time to stand over each of them twice a day and make sure they are brushing their teeth right. I do check the autistic one when she brushes in the morning and help her, but I also help her wash her hair and shave her armpits. The 2 youngest ones I brush their teeth myself. I suppose checking the remaining 2 children, who I don't check currently, wouldn't be much more than I'm already doing. I guess I love going to the dentist and love the feeling of clean teeth, so it's hard for me to give that one up. Plus the tons of things my kids and I have had done to our teeth with dental insurance, the thought of not having it scares me. I have a thing about teeth. I don't want anyone to have weird teeth because we don't have insurance. When I have alot of stress in my life, my dreams always revolve around my teeth falling out. Usually in tiny little pieces. Teeth are important to me.
I'm not worried about infection. Kiryan took care of warts and though it was probably a bit more painful over a longer period of time then if I just went to the doctor, he was very careful about properly cleaning everything. I'm sure there is more risk of infection in more public places.

Wow, long post. Sorry guys. Hope some of you have time to read it.

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