Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

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Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby kiryan » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:04 pm

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125046457087135327.html

Article on how Tennessee's solution to the uninsured went. Put in place in 1994, nearly bankrupted the state by 2005. Cost savings in the first 5 years disappeared as soon as private insurers adminsitering the plan gave up because they were losing money. 46% of people in the plan had left their own private insurance for the state plan. Doctors refused to see patients on the plan because the reimbursement rates were too low. Insurance companies saw their costs rise as practices that did see the patients at the low Tennesse care rates shifted the costs to private insurance.
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Kifle » Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:03 am

I saw my son try to play baseball. He didn't hit the ball from the ages of 0-5 when I was pitching 65mph; therefore, he, nor any other child, will ever be able to play baseball ever again because it is impossible. I refuse to ever let anybody else try... ever.

Hollywood made and produced "robot monster." It was a horrible movie and lost money. Hollywood should stop attempting to make movies because this one failed. Good movies are impossible to make.

I tried to make a homemade telephone. I failed; therefore, phones are an impossible dream. Nobody should ever try to make one ever again.

My retarded coworker can not properly calculate the area of a square; therefore, it is the case that both the area of a square doesn't exist, and mathematics is a huge flop and can not accurately describe anything. We should remove mathematics from the education curriculum and label all of those who "successfully" described things as heretics and magicians. Also, they should be publicly defamed, humiliated, and run out of the country for believing in such garbage.

Should I keep going?
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby kiryan » Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:09 am

Just because its tried and failed in the past doesn't mean you will succeed next time around...

You create an entitlement system that gives away trillions in new benefits that the government doesn't have the money to pay for and well... and you risk more than winning a game or making great movies.
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Sarvis » Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:34 am

kiryan wrote:Just because its tried and failed in the past doesn't mean you will succeed next time around...

You create an entitlement system that gives away trillions in new benefits that the government doesn't have the money to pay for and well... and you risk more than winning a game or making great movies.


How many working examples of this are there in the world?

But let's just ignore all those...
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Corth » Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:55 am

Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:Just because its tried and failed in the past doesn't mean you will succeed next time around...

You create an entitlement system that gives away trillions in new benefits that the government doesn't have the money to pay for and well... and you risk more than winning a game or making great movies.


How many working examples of this are there in the world?

But let's just ignore all those...


Like this one?

I'm sure there are quite a few that appear to be working. Eventually each and every one of them will fail. Without a market to efficiently allocate resources it comes down to arbitrary decisions by politicians. Some decisions will be less wrong than others, but almost uniformly they will be wrong to some degree.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Kifle » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:42 am

I can show you a multitude of places where democracy has failed as well, does that mean that we shouldn't have a working democracy? The way I see it, every form of government man has tried, has failed. Show me a better system in place today, Kiryan.
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Corth » Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:42 pm

The way democracy seems to fail the most is when the majority groups starts taking advantage of the minority. Think about that the next time you advocate taxing the rich to pay for another government benefit. Soon enough we are all poor.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Sarvis » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:09 pm

Corth wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:Just because its tried and failed in the past doesn't mean you will succeed next time around...

You create an entitlement system that gives away trillions in new benefits that the government doesn't have the money to pay for and well... and you risk more than winning a game or making great movies.


How many working examples of this are there in the world?

But let's just ignore all those...


Like this one?

I'm sure there are quite a few that appear to be working. Eventually each and every one of them will fail. Without a market to efficiently allocate resources it comes down to arbitrary decisions by politicians. Some decisions will be less wrong than others, but almost uniformly they will be wrong to some degree.


The market does not allocate resources efficiently. In fact, it uses them as fast as possible until they are almost gone and then extremely limits availability. We are starting to see that with oil, as cheap gas has led to rapid consumption followed by skyrocketing prices as the market attempts to put on the brakes for a now scarce resource..
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Sarvis » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:10 pm

Corth wrote:The way democracy seems to fail the most is when the majority groups starts taking advantage of the minority. Think about that the next time you advocate taxing the rich to pay for another government benefit. Soon enough we are all poor.


Majority groups always take advantage of the minority.
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Ragorn » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:51 pm

Corth wrote:The way democracy seems to fail the most is when the majority groups starts taking advantage of the minority. Think about that the next time you advocate taxing the rich to pay for another government benefit. Soon enough we are all poor.

Is there a form of government that DOESN'T fail for that reason?
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Sarvis » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:57 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Corth wrote:The way democracy seems to fail the most is when the majority groups starts taking advantage of the minority. Think about that the next time you advocate taxing the rich to pay for another government benefit. Soon enough we are all poor.

Is there a form of government that DOESN'T fail for that reason?


Sure, there are some types of government that fail due to inciting a revolution... :P
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Corth » Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:47 pm

Iraq was a good example of a country led by a Sunni Minority that took advantage of the Shiite Majority (proving Sarvis wrong that the majority ALWAYS takes advantage of the minority). That only works in a military dictatorship. If the Iraqi leadership was not deposed by the US, then ultimately at some point the government would have likely been toppled by revolution as Sarvis suggested. So no, not all governments are tyrannies of the majority. Just many democracies.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Sarvis » Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:52 pm

Corth wrote:Iraq was a good example of a country led by a Sunni Minority that took advantage of the Shiite Majority (proving Sarvis wrong that the majority ALWAYS takes advantage of the minority). That only works in a military dictatorship. If the Iraqi leadership was not deposed by the US, then ultimately at some point the government would have likely been toppled by revolution as Sarvis suggested. So no, not all governments are tyrannies of the majority. Just many democracies.


Don't forget free markets! Still waiting for cable to show uncensored movies, but it will never happen as long as the majority of people think hearing a swear word will turn their kids into degenerate perverts instantaneously.
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Corth » Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:21 pm

Dude I hear swear words on cable all the time. Where the fuck do you live? :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Sarvis » Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:38 pm

Corth wrote:Dude I hear swear words on cable all the time. Where the fuck do you live? :)



Some, as I said in an earlier description we're improving on that. On the other hand, would you watch Die Hard on USA? I can't do it, because they censor EVERYTHING. Even in theaters movies have gotten more sanitized over time, to appeal to families and their kids because they make more money that way. For instance changing "Yippee-ki-yay, motherfucker" in Die Hard to "Yippi-kay-ay, motherfu - [gunshot] " in Live Free or Die Hard.
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Botef » Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:40 pm

You see what happens?! You see what happens when you find a stranger in the alps?!
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Ragorn » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:29 pm

Corth wrote:Iraq was a good example of a country led by a Sunni Minority that took advantage of the Shiite Majority (proving Sarvis wrong that the majority ALWAYS takes advantage of the minority). That only works in a military dictatorship. If the Iraqi leadership was not deposed by the US, then ultimately at some point the government would have likely been toppled by revolution as Sarvis suggested. So no, not all governments are tyrannies of the majority. Just many democracies.

That's not actually answering the question I asked. I wasn't asking if minority oppression was the reason all governments fail.

If there is a system in place where the majority is exploiting the minority, is there a system of government that will prevent the government from crumbling?
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Tasan » Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:26 pm

Botef wrote:You see what happens?! You see what happens when you find a stranger in the alps?!


Hands down the greatest replacement line ever in censorship.
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Corth » Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:25 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Corth wrote:Iraq was a good example of a country led by a Sunni Minority that took advantage of the Shiite Majority (proving Sarvis wrong that the majority ALWAYS takes advantage of the minority). That only works in a military dictatorship. If the Iraqi leadership was not deposed by the US, then ultimately at some point the government would have likely been toppled by revolution as Sarvis suggested. So no, not all governments are tyrannies of the majority. Just many democracies.

That's not actually answering the question I asked. I wasn't asking if minority oppression was the reason all governments fail.

If there is a system in place where the majority is exploiting the minority, is there a system of government that will prevent the government from crumbling?


I don't know. I would suggest that a constutional system like ours is a good start. Create certain strict constraints on the power of the majority. Of course, once it becomes a 'living constitution' you have basically given up trying.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Corth » Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:37 am

http://www.vancouversun.com/story_print ... 06&sponsor

Ouch - guess there just wasn't enough in the government's budget for all the necessary life-saving surgeries.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Sarvis » Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:19 am

Corth wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
Corth wrote:Iraq was a good example of a country led by a Sunni Minority that took advantage of the Shiite Majority (proving Sarvis wrong that the majority ALWAYS takes advantage of the minority). That only works in a military dictatorship. If the Iraqi leadership was not deposed by the US, then ultimately at some point the government would have likely been toppled by revolution as Sarvis suggested. So no, not all governments are tyrannies of the majority. Just many democracies.

That's not actually answering the question I asked. I wasn't asking if minority oppression was the reason all governments fail.

If there is a system in place where the majority is exploiting the minority, is there a system of government that will prevent the government from crumbling?


I don't know. I would suggest that a constutional system like ours is a good start. Create certain strict constraints on the power of the majority. Of course, once it becomes a 'living constitution' you have basically given up trying.


I just love that you're ignoring the tyranny of the minority enacted by the free market, Corth. :P
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Corth » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:29 pm

The people that produced goods and services that other people voluntarily and happily purchased are the tyrants?

Or the people that enjoy benefits paid for by those tyrants without wanting to contribute their fair share as well?

We've had this conversation before. Really no point in doing it again. We have different world views. I favor the people that produce things. Who give people honest work. You favor people that want a free ride.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Sarvis » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:45 pm

Corth wrote:The people that produced goods and services that other people voluntarily and happily purchased are the tyrants?


Wow Corth, you're just not listening are you? The majority of people (consumers, not producers!) put pressure on cable networks and movie studios to censor/sanitize movies for children. The minority of people who don't have children, or are willing to hire a babysitter, are subject to the limitations imposed by that majority. For instance, not getting to hear "motherfucker" in a Die Hard movie.

This is the majority controlling what the minority has access to through free market forces.

But hey, go ahead and gloss over that in your unending desire to rant against the government. It works so well.

Or the people that enjoy benefits paid for by those tyrants without wanting to contribute their fair share as well?

We've had this conversation before. Really no point in doing it again. We have different world views. I favor the people that produce things. Who give people honest work. You favor people that want a free ride.


You're not even talking about the same thing I am...

But I'm still waiting to see a CEO do "honest work." Last I checked, selling insurance you have no ability to actually pay for wasn't honest. Frankly, they didn't even sell it... STILL not sure what CEOs do that's worth so damn much...
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Corth » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:56 pm

You mentioned the tyranny of the minority over the majority under the -free market- so that is what I thought you were referring to.

When you say selling insurance you can't pay for - I take it you mean selling derivative contracts such as what AIG did. Keep in mind they weren't selling these things to Joe Six Pack. They were financial instruments marketed towards institutions like Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Lehman Brothers, etc. Certainly not unsophisticated customers. They had complicated computer models which told them that a decline in RE prices more than a few percentage point was an impossibility. When they're assumptions were wrong they were caught with their pants down.

Was it an honest dealing? Absolutely. A very stupid dealing (on the part of AIG), but they weren't looking to rip anyone off. Actually, a good part of the stupidity should be assigned to their counterparties - Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers, etc. Those guys were in a very good position to deduce the viability of AIG as a solvent counterparty. To the extent that they were wrong, the free market should punish them. But that was not meant to be - as the US Government saved them from their mistakes.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Corth » Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:43 am

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... 01reSCujDQ

Pretty much everything that needs to be said about Obama healthcare.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Sarvis » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:44 am

I didn't get very far in that, honestly. Tired.

BUT, I have to say I've never considered the USPS inefficient. If anything, they seem to be more efficient than when I was a kid. A letter used to take a pretty much guaranteed 3 days to get somewhere even across town. These days it's often there the next day.

I'll grant that it doesn't do quite as good of a job with packages, but FedEx and UPS are very specialized in that area. They don't do letters at all, to the best of my knowledge, so all their infrastructure is based on just handling boxes.

The post office isn't in trouble because it's inefficient, it's in trouble because people don't mail shit anymore. I don't even get any paper bills anymore, because I can get them electronically and they're set up for autopay anyway.

The only way the USPS is a good analogy for healthcare is if people stop getting sick someday.
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Corth » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:30 am

Actually as far as service goes I have no issues with the USPS either. Theoretically, its supposed to pay for itself. However, the taxpayers routinely subsidize it. I think that is what Obama was referring to. It might be a very good service, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is run efficiently in terms of cost.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Sarvis » Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:00 am

Is that a recent development though? Really, if your customer base dwindles your earnings are going to fall... unfortunately while the postal service may be as efficient as it can possibly be the nature of it's coverage demands a certain level of capital.

That probably wasn't a great sentence. Basically though the USPS has to cover every house in America, whether people are using it or not. Without the customers, it can cut staff to a point... but it still has to cover the same area.
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Corth » Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:33 am

Good points. I don't think there is any real way to quantify how much of the USPS loss is due to inefficiency and how much is due to declining demand for their service. As always I think privatization would make sense here. I'm sure Fedex and UPS would love the opportunity to compete in that field. Despite the declining demand for snail mail services, its still an extremely large industry - and would dwarf their existing business.

If the USPS was abolished and UPS/Fedex were allowed to compete for the traditional snail mail service, What would likely happen is that instead of 44 cents for any first class piece of mail, you would probably end up paying less to ship mail to densely populated areas and more to ship it to sparesely populated areas. Undoubtedly, the actual cost of shipping would reflect the costs of providing the service - instead of how it is now where you pay 44 cents to ship a letter that really costs 70 cents to deliver - and the difference is subsidized by the taxpayer.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Ragorn » Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:01 am

So you'd prefer a system where, instead of paying 44 cents to ship a letter that costs 70 cents to ship, you pay $1.45?
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Corth » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:15 am

It already costs a lot more than 44 cents. It comes out of our paycheck.

You propose it will cost $1.45 to ship a letter that costs the post office 70 cents to ship. I think its more likely I would pay 60 cents to ship the same letter with private companies, and it would cost them only 50 cents to ship it - because they are not government and thus will be substantially more efficient.
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Sarvis » Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:47 pm

I propose that rural areas would get poorer service, and in some cases none at all as it just wouldn't be profitable. There are still some areas that don't even have cable, after all.
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Corth » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:06 pm

Of course it would be profitable. They would just charge more to make up for the additional costs. Its not like cable or other utilities where there is a huge fixed capital cost to even begin servicing a particular area.

If you think about it - they SHOULD be charged more. Why should people in densely populated areas (or for that matter, taxpayers) subsidize mail service to people and businesses that choose to be located in sparsely populated areas?
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Sarvis » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:40 pm

Corth wrote:Of course it would be profitable. They would just charge more to make up for the additional costs. Its not like cable or other utilities where there is a huge fixed capital cost to even begin servicing a particular area.


People bitch about $0.44/letter, and you think they're going to pay $1.40 to send shit to rural areas? Yeah, right. Not to mention businesses would have to pay more to send bills in those areas, which would probably mean an increase in their prices to readjust their profit margin and we'd STILL be subsidizing them.

The free market is NOT magic, Corth. The money still has to come from somewhere.

If you think about it - they SHOULD be charged more. Why should people in densely populated areas (or for that matter, taxpayers) subsidize mail service to people and businesses that choose to be located in sparsely populated areas?


Because people in sparsely populated areas provide all of our food? Because this isn't a third world country? Because no private entity in history has ever set up a mail service, so I'm betting no one thought it could be a profitable endeavor?

Just sayin...
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Corth
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Corth » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:57 pm

If people don't want to pay what it even costs to provide the service, they don't have to. Just don't mail anything. Hey it would provide an incentive to people to use email more often, which is both free and green. Government subsidy of the USPS encourages destruction of the environment.

As for profitability.. the USPS, or a private sector mail industry, could easily be profitable. In the absence of subsidies they would have to charge at minimum what it costs to provide the service. There is no magic in that.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Ragorn » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:05 pm

Corth wrote:It already costs a lot more than 44 cents. It comes out of our paycheck.

You propose it will cost $1.45 to ship a letter that costs the post office 70 cents to ship. I think its more likely I would pay 60 cents to ship the same letter with private companies, and it would cost them only 50 cents to ship it - because they are not government and thus will be substantially more efficient.

And yet, regardless whether it costs them 70 cents, or 60, or 50, they will still charge you $1.45 if that's what the market will bear.
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Sarvis » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:43 pm

Corth wrote:If people don't want to pay what it even costs to provide the service, they don't have to. Just don't mail anything. Hey it would provide an incentive to people to use email more often, which is both free and green. Government subsidy of the USPS encourages destruction of the environment.


So the people living in rural areas that don't necessarily have access to internet are supposed to switch to email?

You also skipped the part about companies sending bills. You WILL be paying for the power company to pay $1.45 to send the bill to their rural customers. Enjoy subsidizing!

As for profitability.. the USPS, or a private sector mail industry, could easily be profitable. In the absence of subsidies they would have to charge at minimum what it costs to provide the service. There is no magic in that.


Could it be? You sure? Why was a mail service never set up until a government did it, then?

People probably aren't going to pay all that much to send a letter. Sending a letter is a fairly low price point, I'm not sure that Rags is right about the price going to $1.45... I don't think people would pay that. I think you're looking at less than $1, and a company would need to invest a few billion to provide the infrastructure needed to make it back $1 at a time. At a point in time when people are sending fewer letters than ever.

On the bright side, it COULD kill the snail-mail spam industry...
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Corth » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:49 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Corth wrote:It already costs a lot more than 44 cents. It comes out of our paycheck.

You propose it will cost $1.45 to ship a letter that costs the post office 70 cents to ship. I think its more likely I would pay 60 cents to ship the same letter with private companies, and it would cost them only 50 cents to ship it - because they are not government and thus will be substantially more efficient.

And yet, regardless whether it costs them 70 cents, or 60, or 50, they will still charge you $1.45 if that's what the market will bear.


Competition would never allow margins to get that high. It would create too much of an opportunity for another company to charge less and take away all the business.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Corth » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:53 pm

Couple of things Sarvis. I think if you research you will find there are examples of private postal services. With respect to the USPS - the government granted itself a monopoly. If Fedex or UPS wanted to get into the snail mail business they couldn't - they aren't allowed.

Second, don't we want to encourage less use of paper? Companies can give their customers an option to save money by accepting bills via email. I personally prefer it that way. Regardless, choice is a good thing and so is less trees being cut down to print up bills. And I don't buy this idea that there are people without the opportunity to get internet. I'm not an expert but I know they have internet access in parts of the world that are a lot more rural than anywhere in the US.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Ragorn » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:15 pm

Corth wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
Corth wrote:It already costs a lot more than 44 cents. It comes out of our paycheck.

You propose it will cost $1.45 to ship a letter that costs the post office 70 cents to ship. I think its more likely I would pay 60 cents to ship the same letter with private companies, and it would cost them only 50 cents to ship it - because they are not government and thus will be substantially more efficient.

And yet, regardless whether it costs them 70 cents, or 60, or 50, they will still charge you $1.45 if that's what the market will bear.


Competition would never allow margins to get that high. It would create too much of an opportunity for another company to charge less and take away all the business.

In order for another company to do so, they would have to have the delivery infrastructure in place. The "competition" between the two private companies in that space would be similar to the "competition" between AT&T, Sprint, and Verizon.. there might be some nominal differences, and there might be a couple local companies who can compete regionally, but you're still going to get fucked by ridiculously high margins with a very high bar for entry into the market.
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Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Corth » Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:16 am

Assuming you are right - so what? Again, why are we trying to subsidize snail mail in 2009?
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby kiryan » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:06 am

The Feds have been responsible for providing healthcare to Indians since 1787. They are legally required to provide free healthcare to native american populations. Care to guess how well its working out for them? Basically, they have a saying, Don't get sick after June (because the money is all gone and you can't get any care / any quality care). They already are guaranteed this right through a 200 year old agreement... and the government is failing them in terms of healthcare. These articles claim we spend more per capita on prison healthcare than we do the native americans.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,540965,00.html

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/07/14/a ... ould-know/

http://www.nativelegalupdate.com/2009/0 ... americans/

http://www.reznetnews.org/article/india ... ises-35270

Oh and lets not forget another group of people who rely on the government for healthcare... soldiers, veterans ect... My dad is a disabled vet and I've encountered a number of people he associated with who were vets / disabled vets. My father in law a vet, my sister in law is in the national guard. They complain a lot. Mostly about how the records are always "lost" and often about how they are ordered here and there (often hundreds of miles away) to wait literally hours to see some specialist despite the appointment having been scheduled months earlier. The bureacracy is atrocious. You miss an appointment, and you have to go through all this crap to get back to where you were. Getting a straight answer about what is going on or what you need to do is impossible.

Heres some on the VA

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/featur ... ngman.html

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/nat ... hcare.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01172.html


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01394.html

Oh and don't forget about medicare / medicaid. How many years have we known the system is going bankrupt? Every few years they try and create a case that they are "saving" money when in reality all they are is unilaterally deciding to lower how much they will pay which makes health care providers charge every one else more. Zimbabwe and Venezuela both decided that the price of necessities like food were too high so they picked a price which destroyed their economy. companies stopped making product rather than sell at a loss. government stepped in took over the assets and threatened them with jail if they didn't keep producing. We are goign to pay the real cost of healthcare one way or another. whether its in your copay, your health insurance premium or in the price of goods... The only thing govenrment can do is add another layer of laws and burecracy on top of it raising the cost.
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Re: Tennessee Healthcare tried and failed.

Postby Naled » Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:41 pm

I think the healthcare system we have here(=Netherlands) works fairly nice. The government mostly regulates the market. Health insurance companies have to accept everybody for the basic health care needs, and if you want more you can additionally insure yourself. Healthcare providers are regulated in terms of quality and accessability. Commercial insurers buy care from providers and make sure cost remains low, while the government make sure the quality remains acceptable. Virtually everybody is insured here, with much lower costs than in the US.

Some parts of our healthcare system are government controlled though, much like your description of the Indian system. Same thing happens, money is gone with June, and care provided through this system is extremely expensive. A research report I sponsored a few years ago showed a commercial company could provide the care at less than 25% the cost.

So regulating healthcare is good, but governments are notoriously bad at doing stuff themselves.
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