Really, we need to regulate yoga?

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kiryan
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Really, we need to regulate yoga?

Postby kiryan » Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:44 pm

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,578 ... 152054:z10

"The state council says it is required by law to regulate any vocational training: as a result, bartending schools, massage therapy schools and even programs on how to shoe horses have received state licenses in recent years, as have several yoga studios."

Seriously, why do we need government to regulate training programs (specifically training programs that train people to train others). Why can't you hire someone to train you in something and then turn around and share what you know with others? Why the hell do you need to pass the government litmus test to engage in the work of your choice? Oh I see, $2,500 application fee and more government control / workers.

All this will do is raise the costs of yoga instruction (studets or future teachers). For what purpose? So your average idiot can decide she wants to be a yoga instructor and can just open the phone book and pick a random trainer without fear they will go out of business or won't provide quality instruction? Do we really need to protect people from poor training programs? Isn't civil court after you've been screwed the proper mechanism to handle this?
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Re: Really, we need to regulate yoga?

Postby Ragorn » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:37 pm

Yeah, why shouldn't we be allowed to pay someone thousands of dollars to train us with absolutely no proof that they know the thing they're teaching?
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Re: Really, we need to regulate yoga?

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:46 pm

While we're at it, let's remove the certification restrictions from doctors too. Loss of life or permanent disability due to poorly or un-trained professionals should just be settled in civil court!
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Re: Really, we need to regulate yoga?

Postby Ashiwi » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:11 pm

Having a license in no way proves that somebody is qualified to teach a course. It just means they're registered with the local government agency as an operating business. There are some businesses that have stricter licensing requirements, but for the majority of businesses a license is just an expensive piece of paper. Once you're licensed your information is kept on the business roll of the locality for tax and inspection purposes, and may also be used for some Federal purposes.

On a side note, personally, I know some nurses that know more about medicine than some doctors I've met. There are plenty of licensed doctors that shouldn't be allowed anywhere near sharp instruments or prescription pads.
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Re: Really, we need to regulate yoga?

Postby kiryan » Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:07 am

Ragorn: why do we need the government to certify that people are qualified to teach yoga? Why do we need the government to spend resources protecting you from wasting thousands of dollars on a bag yoga instructor? Should the buyer beware?

Sarvis: I'm willing to concede that doctor's being certified is not a terrible thing. but yoga? How about scrapbooking? Can we have certified scrapbooking trainers too?

Ashiwi: this article is specifically regarding this state's mandate to regulate vocational training. This isn't business licensure or certification, this is regulating people who are teaching others to teach, in this case Yoga. This of course does eventually tie into business licensure, if you weren't taught by a certified trainer, you probably wouldn't be able to open a business.

If I decide you are qualified to teach me yoga (so that I an tun around and run a yoga studio), why do you need the government to certify you are capable?
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Re: Really, we need to regulate yoga?

Postby Ragorn » Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:24 am

kiryan wrote:Ragorn: why do we need the government to certify that people are qualified to teach yoga? Why do we need the government to spend resources protecting you from wasting thousands of dollars on a bag yoga instructor? Should the buyer beware?

Because I don't know anything about yoga or picking a yoga instructor, and I'm perfectly happy for the government to set up regulations to ensure that someone who says they can teach yoga can teach yoga.
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Re: Really, we need to regulate yoga?

Postby avak » Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:54 am

I happen to agree completely with Kiryan. There is no compelling reason for the government to regulate this. If you want to find a reputable yoga instructor, find a reputable yoga organization or ask other people for references. And note, the government is not interested in the quality of instruction, per se, just in making sure some basic guidelines are followed...oh, and collecting thousands of dollars for the effort. That is inane.

If we regulate yoga instruction, then I fully expect the kids in high school that are 'teaching' young kids how to play tennis and swim during the summer should be licensed. Etc.
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Re: Really, we need to regulate yoga?

Postby kiryan » Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:25 am

and you shouldn't have to ragorn, I mean this is america, land of the stupid and looking to join the sisterhood of nanny states.
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Re: Really, we need to regulate yoga?

Postby Todrael » Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:39 pm

An article discussing state licensed hypnotists.
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Re: Really, we need to regulate yoga?

Postby kiryan » Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:50 pm

nice article tod.

So in summary... hypnotherapists, who may or may not know what they were doing, were getting licensed in Indiana so they could advertise in their home state that they were "state certified". The implication is that the state has some how gone through a rigorous licensure process when it hadn't... so basically, state licensing made people more susceptible to sham therapists.

Of course the end result of this someday will be that the state has to increase the quality of its licensing by hiring more workers, creating more standards and basically wasting more of our money and time to protect us from unqualified practitioners.
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Re: Really, we need to regulate yoga?

Postby Corth » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:08 pm

Again, most state licensing regimes are about revenue. Very often there aren't even any qualification requirements.
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Re: Really, we need to regulate yoga?

Postby Corth » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:10 pm

avak wrote:There is no compelling reason for the government to regulate this.


There is hope for you yet. In Ragorn's world we would never have to think because someone would always be there to think for us - in every single mundane facet of our life. I can understand Ragorn's arguments for credit card regulation, even though I disagree with them. But really - he needs help finding a reputable ballet instructor?
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Re: Really, we need to regulate yoga?

Postby Ragorn » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:20 pm

Corth wrote:
avak wrote:There is no compelling reason for the government to regulate this.


There is hope for you yet. In Ragorn's world we would never have to think because someone would always be there to think for us - in every single mundane facet of our life. I can understand Ragorn's arguments for credit card regulation, even though I disagree with them. But really - he needs help finding a reputable ballet instructor?

Don't you know how dangerous an improper plie can be? Besides Corth, we all know the first time you attempted a ballotte from 5th position, landed skew, and blew a knee, you'd be in court suing your unlicensed, incomptent ballet instructor for willful negligence :)
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Re: Really, we need to regulate yoga?

Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:26 pm

Corth wrote:
avak wrote:There is no compelling reason for the government to regulate this.


There is hope for you yet. In Ragorn's world we would never have to think because someone would always be there to think for us - in every single mundane facet of our life. I can understand Ragorn's arguments for credit card regulation, even though I disagree with them. But really - he needs help finding a reputable ballet instructor?



Corth, we both know that if I wanted I could put up half a dozen websites, pay a few people off for word of mouth advertising and put up a few TV ads proclaiming myself the best yoga instructor ever and get plenty of customers. Marketing trumps just about everything, and the absolute BEST part? Since I've never taught yoga before no one will be able to find any source that says I'm a bad yoga instructor.

With things like yoga the risk of permanent disability from injury is there, so while I think it's ridiculous to have licensing without actual tests and standards for competence... I think there is a valid reason to have licensing.
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Re: Really, we need to regulate yoga?

Postby kiryan » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:51 pm

Can we get certificatons on parenting, posting advice on bulletin boards and voting? These are a HELL of a lot more important than yoga instruction and we let complete retards engage in all of them.

Just think of the damage that you can do if someone reads your post online and assumes you know what the hell ou are talking about? Lets get the governmnt involved to protect us.

/idiot mode off.
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Re: Really, we need to regulate yoga?

Postby Todrael » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:57 pm

kiryan wrote:Can we get certificatons on parenting, [...]

Please, god, yes...
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Re: Really, we need to regulate yoga?

Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:58 pm

kiryan wrote:Just think of the damage that you can do if someone reads your post online and assumes you know what the hell ou are talking about? Lets get the governmnt involved to protect us.



This is exactly why I spoke with Corth when I first had the idea for Dear Vesta. I wanted to see if I needed to do anything to protect myself in case someone gave bad advice to someone.

That said, I don't necessarily think it would be a bad idea at all to have training, education and exams to become a parent. Not necessarily possible to REGULATE that, mind you, but it would be nice to, for instance, not have kids from broken homes because the father takes off, or is abusive or any of the other billions of things that tend to create our criminal class.
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Re: Really, we need to regulate yoga?

Postby Ragorn » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:58 pm

I think you're really onto something here. Just think of the damage we could have prevented if the Clinton administration had set up a certification program for voters in the 90s.
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Re: Really, we need to regulate yoga?

Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:59 pm

Good one Rags! Hilarious AND true. ;)
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Re: Really, we need to regulate yoga?

Postby kiryan » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:21 pm

I know you guys are being facetious, but you do really want the government to take care of everything don't you? You really want communism, a government that gives you a job, and gives you a state approved apartment, state approved television sets (like the low power ones mandated in california), state approved tv programming ect...

The effects of the three misguided suggestions I made are arguably good for society in some specific measurable ways, but can you deny they are bad for freedom and bad for the truth that all men and women are created equal regardless of race, creed, education and social standing?
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Re: Really, we need to regulate yoga?

Postby Ragorn » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:53 pm

kiryan wrote:I know you guys are being facetious, but you do really want the government to take care of everything don't you? You really want communism, a government that gives you a job, and gives you a state approved apartment, state approved television sets (like the low power ones mandated in california), state approved tv programming ect...

The effects of the three misguided suggestions I made are arguably good for society in some specific measurable ways, but can you deny they are bad for freedom and bad for the truth that all men and women are created equal regardless of race, creed, education and social standing?

Please step back a moment and consider the slippery slope of lunacy you have dragged this thread down.

The title of the thread is "Really, we need to regulate yoga?"

By the 20th post in the thread, you have taken us to a place where you're questioning the idea that all men are created equal.

I'm gonna need you to dial the crazy back just a smidge, k?
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Re: Really, we need to regulate yoga?

Postby Ashiwi » Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:46 am

Kiryan, I understand what you're saying about licensing them to teach, but consider this for a moment... If you teach a friend the yoga moves you know at no charge, you don't have to be licensed. If you have some friends and the friends of some friends come over for a party and you get down on the floor and show them some yoga moves, you don't have to be licensed. If, however, you're charging for your services, you have to be licensed. Saying it's a "teaching license" is just another way of saying that the local government is charging you for running a business.

Remember back in the old days when you could post notes in the foyer of Wal-Mart offering babysitting services or plumbing services without having to worry about the the local licensing agencies and the IRS hunting you down? Now if you do that, they haul you in and investigate you for evasion.
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Re: Really, we need to regulate yoga?

Postby kiryan » Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:44 pm

Well thats exactly the problem Ashiwi. The government is regulating all aspects of life from yoga instruction to babysitting. Its a ridiculous extension of the notion of protecting the public and it comes at the expense of freedom and being personally responsible for your actions. Yes I'm a bit extreme on freedom. On the other hand, the "freedom" we have today is probably not what our great grandparents woud've called "freedom".

Really... yoga. If they are going to regulate yoga, what aren't they going to try and control?

Ashiwi this is not a business license. I'm not complaining about a business license (at least not right now) This is like a credential. Do yoga teachers really need to be credentialed?

I read a story a while back where a neighborhood mom in front of the bus stop had opened up her yard as kind of a drop off for the neighborhood kids (the bus came at like 8:10 and some parents would "drop off" their kids as early as like 7:45. She got a notice to quit running an illegal day care service and was threatened with fines ect for failing to be licensed and not having a business license... there was no money involved and purportedly no renumeration of any kind. She didn't have any formal agreements, she didn't take responsibility for the kids except being willing to keep an eye on things... f*king ridiculous, but necessary to protect people I'm sure.
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Re: Really, we need to regulate yoga?

Postby Sarvis » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:38 am

kiryan wrote:She didn't have any formal agreements, she didn't take responsibility for the kids except being willing to keep an eye on things... f*king ridiculous, but necessary to protect people I'm sure.


The funny thing is SHE was the one being protected. If a kid so much as fell down and got a bad scrape she could have probably been sued.
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Re: Really, we need to regulate yoga?

Postby kiryan » Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:58 pm

Exactly... She is being protected from being helpful to her neighbors and doing what she wants to do which is have an informal non professional relationship in which kids can go someplace while they wait for the bus. Instead, the government gets involved and tries to force her to stop or register so they can regulate it.

It should be her choice, it should be the choice of the parents, it should have nothing to do with the government.
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Re: Really, we need to regulate yoga?

Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:32 am

From the WSJ regarding Sarbenes Oxley. I thought the conculsion was particularly interesting. Of course this is applicable to a lot more than 'regulating yoga'. I believe the healthcare reform bill creates something like 2000 pilot projects some of which are hoped to become boards and commissions that evaluate and control healthcare spending.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... ns_opinion

Is all this fuss about board appointments just legal hairsplitting? Sam Kazman, general counsel of the Competitive Enterprise Institute, one of the plaintiffs suing the PCAOB, doesn't think so. He notes that "responsibility for bureaucrats was a fundamental issue for the Framers," and that the appointments clause was created "as an essential check on overweening bureaucracy. As colonists of England, they had seen offices created by both the king and Parliament spawn more offices with no accountability, creating what the Declaration of Independence refers to as a 'multitude of new offices' and 'swarms of officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.'"

Today, people who work at public companies—and their investors—understand this problem perfectly.

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