innoncence project, this stuff just pisses me off

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kiryan
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innoncence project, this stuff just pisses me off

Postby kiryan » Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:12 pm

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/12/16/flo ... index.html

This shit really pisses me off. innocent man in jail for 35 years. Most of the inmates exonerated that I have read about are black with a couple of hispanics.

Its absolutely ridiculous that we are not more careful about putting only guilty people in jail. That video on "don't talk to police" said something like 25% of people who were innocent convicted signed confessions admitting guilt.

I'm just so disappointed that the police and prosecutors and judges allow this to happen and even more disappointed that the jury of your peers doesn't require more from them before deciding guilt.

Just sick and wrong.
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Re: innoncence project, this stuff just pisses me off

Postby Sarvis » Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:18 pm

Kiryan wrote:Specifically, the if your not racist like us your against us mentality that Retard Jackson spouts. I find it funny that a people supposedly continuing to suffer pervasive discrimination, that they themselves conduct themselves in a wholly racist fashion. I've been friends with 5-6 black people over the years, all of them were reportedly called "white washed" at various times in their lives. Asians do the same thing, "twinkines" yellow on the outside, white on the in. Yet Asians, a smaller minority than Africans, aren't out there calling everyone else racist. I wonder why.


Kiryan wrote:Most of the inmates exonerated that I have read about are black with a couple of hispanics.


I think you have your answer.
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Re: innoncence project, this stuff just pisses me off

Postby kiryan » Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:35 pm

I'm quite sure racial biases are a part of this problem, but the other part is that the police, prosecutors and judges are not focused on justice. They are focused on convicting someone for a crime which I think is part of the reason we get so many innocent people signing confessions, the police are effectively badgering them.

and the jury of their peers is also not focused on justice or holding them accountable to the highest of standards that we do require when we are talkign about putting people in jail. We individually need to be more willing to let a guilty man go free so that we can raise the standard in order to protect the innocent from being ramrodded into jail.
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Re: innoncence project, this stuff just pisses me off

Postby Corth » Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:15 pm

I went to the law school where the "Innocence Project" is based. Barry Scheck, who is a professor there (and former 'dream team' attorney for OJ Simpson), founded and runs the program. My first law partner, who I went to school with there, was a member of the Innocence Project.

One thing to keep in mind is that the Innocence Project doesn't always exonerate. It can bring up defenses but it rarely excludes totally. For instance - a rape/murder case. Joe Shmo gets convicted and spends 30 years in jail. The Innocence Project determines that semen found in the victim was not Joe's. This does not entirely exonerate Joe. He may have raped the victim, killed her, and used a condom too. Or perhaps he never ejaculated. The semen could simply be from the victim's husband, lover, client or whatever. However, the fact that the semen is not Joe's is certainly relevent - since unless you can trace the semen to a legitimate source, a reasonable person could assume it came from the actual perpetrator. At minimum it rightfully springs Joe from jail at this point in time and it certainly brings up a fair amount of reasonable doubt.

That all being said, I have no doubt that a vast majority of the people freed from jail due to the efforts of the Innocence Project were in fact wrongfully convicted. That, to me, is the greatest argument anyone can make against capital punishment.
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Re: innoncence project, this stuff just pisses me off

Postby kiryan » Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:00 pm

Good point.
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Re: innoncence project, this stuff just pisses me off

Postby Ashiwi » Fri Dec 25, 2009 3:58 pm

For years I have supported a reform of capital punishment laws based on a foundation of overwhelming evidence. Save the fortune of support costs (and the heartbreak of mistaken judgements) by making capital punishment mandatory with limited appeals in certain instances where the crime(s) is/are considered heinous, the perpetrator is considered to be mentally competent and deemed a high recidivism risk, and the evidence is considered to be overwhelming. Without these criteria the death penalty shouldn't be an option at any time.

As an example in my original thesis I used Jeffrey Dahmer, and even though that was two decades ago, he is still one of the best examples going. There are cases like this where the concept of "beyond a reasonable doubt" is taken to a higher level, and it is these cases that capital punishment should apply to.

I realize that it was New York's prerogative to scuttle this option for other states in this case, but I hold them responsible for allowing the cruel and unusual punishment of the perpetrator by the general prison population, thus subjecting him to a violent death instead of a legal execution. What happened in this case was, in my opinion, one of the greatest legal ironies of all time.
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Re: innoncence project, this stuff just pisses me off

Postby kiryan » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:47 pm

I usually argue on the side of a few innocent heading to jail or death is acceptable losses, but I wasn't taking into account nefarious or over zealous police officers and prosecutors.

I'm changing my position to being against capital punishment, despite its effect on reducing crime.
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Re: innoncence project, this stuff just pisses me off

Postby Ragorn » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:22 pm

I favor capital punishment in theory, but our implementation is terrible and I loathe it.
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Re: innoncence project, this stuff just pisses me off

Postby kiryan » Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:49 am

Its not often you get explicit evidence that the death penalty has a deterrent effect. Course people on this forum have argued the death penalty has no deterrent effect and never has.

http://www.suntimes.com/4828757-573/man ... brook.html

Berlin said Smirnov had done research on the Internet to determine if Illinois had the death penalty, deciding to go through with Vesel’s murder when he discovered it does not.

Smirnov could face up to life in prison. His next scheduled court date is May 9.
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Re: innoncence project, this stuff just pisses me off

Postby Corth » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:11 pm

I am suspicious of where that information came from, and even if true it's an unusual case. Not many people make a conscious decision to kill because they only expect to get life in prison but not be executed.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
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Re: innoncence project, this stuff just pisses me off

Postby kiryan » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:07 pm

There was a couple of citations in a death penalty book I just read. One was Diane Feinstein another was from England. basically, thieves pulling jobs would be sure not to have guns because in England it was a much more severe penalty. Forget what the Feinstein one was, but she made a statement to the effect of a criminal told me X so I know that it has at least some deterrence effect.
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Re: innoncence project, this stuff just pisses me off

Postby Corth » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:51 am

Well - it's quite different to rob people with a knife as opposed to a gun because if you get caught you'll get less prison time. Crime in many respects is in fact a cost/benefit analysis sort of thing (hence the reason people are willing to break traffic laws routinely and risk a nominal penalty). I just don't think the difference between life in prison and death penalty will make someone change their mind about taking the drastic step of killing a person...
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Re: innoncence project, this stuff just pisses me off

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:30 pm

Corth wrote:Well - it's quite different to rob people with a knife as opposed to a gun because if you get caught you'll get less prison time. Crime in many respects is in fact a cost/benefit analysis sort of thing (hence the reason people are willing to break traffic laws routinely and risk a nominal penalty). I just don't think the difference between life in prison and death penalty will make someone change their mind about taking the drastic step of killing a person...

It is enough to make some people play ball when it comes to the state prostitutor's plea deals.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
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Re: innoncence project, this stuff just pisses me off

Postby Corth » Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:57 am

Fair point. Although increasing criminal penalties merely to give prosecutors more leverage in plea bargain negotiations seems... unjust.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Teflor Lyorian
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Re: innoncence project, this stuff just pisses me off

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:51 am

Only if it were so.

But the reason for making that point was to counter-indicate a complete lack of deterrence. While in a particular murder, a death penalty may not deter a murderer - it can deter them from important details like the location of a body should the murderer have any fear of death.

Furthermore, not all murders are crimes of passion. To a normal human being, murder would seem to be a crime of passion, filled with emotion and a lack of coping skills.

On the other hand, murderers aren't always out of control. Frequently, they're sociopaths and the like, who really do take into consideration potential risks in deciding what to do (or in this country, where to do it, perhaps). If Montana has a death penalty, a serial killer capable of risk-assessment will probably avoid killing in that state.

You really can't look at it from a neuro-typical person's point of view when it comes to deterrence of capital crimes. It's more useful to view it from their perspective.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)

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