wow, what a bunch of bs.

[kiryan]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ellen-bro ... 34239.html

Insane. Create a special bank to print money to pay for healthcare. It worked(?) in Canada.

[teflor the ranger]

UFC champ Brock Lesnar says Canadian health care like 'a Third World country'
http://www.vancouversun.com/life/champ+ ... story.html

"They couldn't do nothing for me," he added. "It was like I was in a Third World country, I just looked at my wife and she saved my life and I had to get out of there."

Lesnar's wife, former WWE wrestler Sable, took the 6-3, 285-pound giant away from the medical facility in "excruciating pain" and "drove 100 mph" across the border to Bismarck, North Dakota.

"That doctor there saved my career and saved my life," he said.

It sure does, Kiryan.

[Sarvis]

Wow. Comparing some "hospital" in the middle of nowhere to one of the world's best hospitals is a valid argument for you guys?

Tell you what, go to the Middle of Nowhere, Idaho and tell me how THAT compares to the Mayo clinic. :roll:

[teflor the ranger]

Lesnar's wife, former WWE wrestler Sable, took the 6-3, 285-pound giant away from the medical facility in "excruciating pain" and "drove 100 mph" across the border to Bismarck, North Dakota.

L2R

[teflor the ranger]

claimed that the care he received in the United States, and later at the prestigious Mayo Clinic

L2R

[Sarvis]

Lesnar's wife, former WWE wrestler Sable, took the 6-3, 285-pound giant away from the medical facility in "excruciating pain" and "drove 100 mph" across the border to Bismarck, North Dakota.

L2R

The CAPITAL of ND is the middle of nowhere to you? She drove him from the fucking boonies (LTR) to the CAPITAL of a friggen state. I'm betting the CAPITAL of any state has better healthcare than any hick town you care to name.

[teflor the ranger]

Funny how that part about the 'world's best hospital' dropped off your argument there.

My point appears to remain intact.

[Sarvis]

That, sir, is why you are a troll.

[teflor the ranger]

Because you can't read?

When you make an invalid argument, prepare to have to have it swatted down. Your name calling is also quite dull.

[Sarvis]

I'll give you this explanation once. This is your one chance to prove you are something more than a troll. Use it as you will.

I did not mention "best hospital in the world" the second time because it had already been stated. You changed the subject to being a hospital in Bismark, which just happens to be a Capital city and therefore can be assumed to have a relatively high quality hospital as well. I did not need to restate the Mayo clinic because it had already been stated. There is no logical flaw there, I simply did not repeat myself.

The fact is that you're taking your argument from a UFC fighter who nearly ate himself to death due to poor dietary choices, and his argument is quite literally comparing apples to oranges. Compare Canada's best hospital to Bismarck's, and he might have some semblence of a point. Instead he chose to compare some medical clinic in the middle of nowhere to two high quality hospitals.

You are a troll because you tried to sidetrack the argument to talk about Bismarck, apparently not realizing it was a major city since you tried to represent it as the same kind of rural town he went to first. Then you tried to push the attack back on me for "dropping" the "best hospital in the world argument" because, when you are trolling and someone tackles your point head on, the only strategy left is misdirection. In this case you had nowhere to go except attempting to make it look like I had backed down, even though I had done no such thing.

Once again, we are done.

[teflor the ranger]

Bismark, ND, the world's best hospital ever. Sarvis, you truly are a troll.

[avak]

I think it is cool how you are hanging your proverbial hat on the anecdotal evidence of a pro wrestler.

Clearly, this health care comparison debate is now closed.

[Sarvis]

I think it is cool how you are hanging your proverbial hat on the anecdotal evidence of a pro wrestler.

Clearly, this health care comparison debate is now closed.

Before Teflor claims it completely invalidates your argument, he's a UFC fighter! Of course, that probably means he has MORE brain damage...

[teflor the ranger]

I'm getting feelings of animosity from you Sarvis, so I've decided to make my case and explain to you why your post deserved the responses it received.

Comparing some "hospital" in the middle of nowhere to one of the world's best hospitals is a valid argument for you guys?

It's pretty clear from here that you meant the Mayo Clinic, which means you failed to read the part about going to a hospital in Bismark, ND, where Lesnar credits the doctor with saving his career and his life. If you did somehow manage to read even what I quoted out of the article where I HIGHLIGHTED the Bismark, ND part, you were unable to read past the article's bias where it mentioned the Mayo Clinic to dull criticism, rather than having anything to do with the criticism itself.

The CAPITAL of ND is the middle of nowhere to you? She drove him from the fucking boonies (LTR) to the CAPITAL of a friggen state. I'm betting the CAPITAL of any state has better healthcare than any hick town you care to name.

Bismark, ND Population: 104k est.
Nearby Canadian cities, Winnipeg (700k est.) and Regina (176k) are 7 times the size of Bismark and 1.7 the times of Bismark respectively.

I submit that you have no idea about what you're talking about.

I did not mention "best hospital in the world" the second time because it had already been stated.

You didn't mention it because you are wrong.

You changed the subject to being a hospital in Bismark

In my ORIGINAL post, I HIGHLIGHTED Bismark, North Dakota in ITALICS. I did not change the subject, you need to learn to read.

which just happens to be a Capital city and therefore can be assumed to have a relatively high quality hospital as well

So are several nearby Canadian cities, equidistant from the border to Bismark.


I think the evidence is pretty clear as to why I responded to your posts. You have no idea about what you're talking about.

[teflor the ranger]

I think it is cool how you are hanging your proverbial hat on the anecdotal evidence of a pro wrestler.

Clearly, this health care comparison debate is now closed.

You must have the memory of a 14 year old girl if you don't recall the many places I've discussed socialized medicine. If I have to debate with people that don't remember the hundreds of posts they've read and responded to, clearly, the debate is now closed.

[Sarvis]

You remember those math word problems they used to give in grade school? Where they would put in a bunch of info that didn't matter? Like, "if you have 5 pies, 4 chickens and a duck how many birds do you have?"

You were never able to solve those, were you?

I can't believe it's possible, because you seem to think that several Canadian cities Mr. Lesnar DIDN'T go to for medical care have some bearing on the comparison between two high end American hospitals vs. one in the middle of nowhere.

My argument is not invalid, Mr. Teffie, because it doesn't really matter whether it's the Mayo Clinic or Bismarck General. They are BOTH far out of the league of any hospital you would find in the areas Mr. Lesnar went.

Knowing this, you put up a storm of misinformation and attempt to confuse the issue. But let's not be confused. Conservatives are trying to make health care reform look bad by comparing a small, podunk medical clinic to large well funded hospitals.

Nothing is valid about this comparison.

[teflor the ranger]

I put up no information that was not provided in the news article. The comparison is between Canadian health care and American health care. You yourself said that a place like Bismark, ND with only 104k population had one of the best hospitals in the world. I believe you made my argument for me.

Were you able to solve anything at all in school?

[Sarvis]

Wow.

Conservative logic.

Why do I give you the benefit of the doubt, Teffie?

First, you are putting words in my mouth. We both know I was referring to the Mayo Clinic. We both know that Mr. Lesnar included his care at the Mayo clinic in his comparison. We both ALSO know that you had previously accused me of failing to read and had failed to realize we were talking about Bismarck, and are now even backing out of your OWN argument in order to claim I said something I did not.

Further, you listed several cities that are supposedly AS BIG AS Bismarck. This is information that was NOT presented in the article, which means you are now directly lying. You're usually at least more subtle, Teffie. Having an off day?

You're still comparing a random medical clinic to Bismarck's medical facilities AND the Mayo Clinic.

Oh, ad before you YET AGAIN try to make it sound like the Mayo Clinic wasn't be part of the comparison, you should probably read the entire article yourself:

"This thing's going to take on a beat of its own, but coming from the Mayo Clinic, some of the best doctors in the world, people come from across the world to be at this clinic ... we have the best hospital in the world at the Mayo Clinic." - Lesnar


So yes, Bismarck was part of the comparison. Yes, Mayo Clinic was part of the comparison. Yes, some hospital in the middle of nowhere was part of the comparison. Winnipeg and Regina, however, are NOT part of the article, the comparison or anything but the Canadian Healthcare system. Unfortunately since Mr. Lesnar did not visit those hospitals, we cannot use them for comparison.

No matter what "flaws" you try to twist into my argument the fact is you are trying to compare a single medical clinic in the middle of nowhere to TWO higher end American hospitals.

How about something honest, like comparing the hospital in Winnipeg? Or even more honest, like comparing things to the OTHER socialized medicine systems out there... most of which rate higher than Canada's in the first place?

No, that would be silly. One, single clinic in the middle of nowhere is representative of ALL socialized medicine to you. :roll: Well, you and a guy who gets punched in the head repeatedly for a living.

[Corth]

This thread: Ignore.

[Sarvis]

Yeah, you're better off...

[Pril]

You remember those math word problems they used to give in grade school? Where they would put in a bunch of info that didn't matter? Like, "if you have 5 pies, 4 chickens and a duck how many birds do you have?"

Do the pies have 4 and 20 black birds each? :)

[kiryan]

Wow. Comparing some "hospital" in the middle of nowhere to one of the world's best hospitals is a valid argument for you guys?

Tell you what, go to the Middle of Nowhere, Idaho and tell me how THAT compares to the Mayo clinic. :roll:

The clinic in middle of nowhere still takes medicare patients!

[Sylvos]

I just wanted to call attention to this snippet in this article regarding Brock's comments.

Towards the end of his press conference, Mr. Lesnar admitted that his comments were partly motivated by the ongoing political debate in the U.S. “The reason I'm saying that is because there's millions of people that don't want health care reform and I'm one of them,” he said. “I'm not a believer in socialism and I don't want that going on.”

Main article is here: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nat ... le1439825/

I only have personal opinions on the topic, am in favour of the health care I enjoy here in Canada, and am not educated on the varied nuances of the bill being discussed down there. But his comments, and subsequent admission, have convinced me that while I enjoy the UFC, Brock's nobody I'm that interested in.

[Corth]

I have to agree with Sylvos here. This isn't an unbiased observer. It's a guy with strong political beliefs who took an opportunity to lash out at the concept of universal healthcare. There are enough credible arguments against such a system that it isn't necessary to use an anectdotal episode from a biased party.

[avak]

I think it is cool how you are hanging your proverbial hat on the anecdotal evidence of a pro wrestler.

Clearly, this health care comparison debate is now closed.

You must have the memory of a 14 year old girl if you don't recall the many places I've discussed socialized medicine. If I have to debate with people that don't remember the hundreds of posts they've read and responded to, clearly, the debate is now closed.

Clearly the only thing you are capable of is parlaying bullshit with equal or greater amounts of bullshit. If I posted some ridiculous article about how my grandmother had an awful experience in Bismarck ND and then drove 100 mph to Winnipeg to have her life saved and then used that as evidence that the Canadian health care system was superior...I would hope you would mock me.

[kiryan]

Its hardly proof or even a strong argument, its obviously anecdotal. However enough of them would constitue something worth looking into. I've heard of at least a dozen of similar cases. Brock just has a larger bully pulpit.

However, the rebuttal has nothing specifc, the rebuttal is we are a great facility and we know what we are doing and he's just a wrestler with political views. You respect her statement higher than the guy who actually went through the experience? Why because shes a CEO and he's a wrestler? I'll take the first hand account, controlling a little for exaggeration and personal bias's, but I wouldn't discount it entirely.

This does highlight a fundamental difference between healthcare in the US and in other places though. With enough money you can go somewhere else and get what you want. I believe government take over will change that because they'll tell you the same thing because they are controlled by the same entity, the government.

[Sarvis]

Its hardly proof or even a strong argument, its obviously anecdotal. However enough of them would constitue something worth looking into. I've heard of at least a dozen of similar cases. Brock just has a larger bully pulpit.

However, the rebuttal has nothing specifc, the rebuttal is we are a great facility and we know what we are doing and he's just a wrestler with political views. You respect her statement higher than the guy who actually went through the experience? Why because shes a CEO and he's a wrestler? I'll take the first hand account, controlling a little for exaggeration and personal bias's, but I wouldn't discount it entirely.

This does highlight a fundamental difference between healthcare in the US and in other places though. With enough money you can go somewhere else and get what you want. I believe government take over will change that because they'll tell you the same thing because they are controlled by the same entity, the government.

He is not comparing likes. He is comparing apples to oranges. Would you compare McDonald's to the best restaurant in Canada and then decide Canada has better food? That's basically what his comparison is.

[kiryan]

As far as I understand, this is a major medical center in Manitoba? they have state of the art equipment and seasoned professionals per the rebuttal? so why don't they compare?

How come there is no mayo clinic in Manitoba? Why did he have to drive to the USA to get the care he feels saved his life and his career? Why couldn't he have driven someplace in Canada?

[avak]

Maybe because he is American? Just a thought. This thread is absurd.

[Sarvis]

As far as I understand, this is a major medical center in Manitoba?

On what are you basing that massive assumption? In fact, Brock would not say what kind of hospital he went to in Canada. Just that it was 3 hours from where he was (aka the middle of nowhere) and that he didn't feel the need to disclose the exact place he went so people could tell. Given that he has an axe to grind against "socialism" it's pretty easy to assume he's hiding that information because he knows it was a small-town hospital. If it HAD been a major medical center, he could strengthen his argument by saying so.

[kiryan]

“ We have state-of-art equipment here. We are hardly a one-horse operation. ”
— Carmel Olson, Brandon regional health authority CEO

She didn't come out and say, we're a 25 bed hospital in the middle of BFE what did he expect.

What are you basing your assumption that this is a podunk hick hospital compared to the mighty mayo clinic on?

[Sarvis]

Read ALL the words, Kiryan. I answered that in my last post:

" If it HAD been a major medical center, he could strengthen his argument by saying so."

[kiryan]

I can't seem to pull up the article, but I thought it said something about the canadian facility being in a reasonably large population center, its not like he drove to a hospital in a town of 500... according to what I recall.

I think its a real poor argument to say if it was a large facility he wouldve said so to strengthen his argument. Aren't these random comments made after a match? not a debate performance.

[kiryan]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,583925,00.html

Parents Fighting to Keep Infant Son on Life Support Win Reprieve

Canadian doctor's say baby has no chance of recovery want to cut life support. Couple took them to court and are getting a temporary reprieve giving them time to get an expert willing to argue on their side. I find it particularly funny that this is what they said:

"Your treating physicians regretfully have come to the conclusion that withdrawal of active treatment is medically reasonable, ethically responsible and appropriate. We must put the interests of your son foremost and it is in his best interests to discontinue mechanical ventilation support ...

Its in the best interests of the baby to die determined by your "physicians".

same thing happens in the US. Obviously when the government is paying for it, we can't allow people to keep their baby alive indefinitely at tens of thousands of dollars a day. Who is goign to make that decision? The death panel, yes I went there. Whether its that board who issued the breast cancer screening recommendations, or an actuary in the CMS or legislators figuring out how to stop the spiraling healthcare costs, someone, not you, will decide when you should just go ahead and die.

I'm all for it if we are going to nationalize healthcare, there should be death panels.

[Sarvis]

I can't seem to pull up the article, but I thought it said something about the canadian facility being in a reasonably large population center, its not like he drove to a hospital in a town of 500... according to what I recall.

I think its a real poor argument to say if it was a large facility he wouldve said so to strengthen his argument. Aren't these random comments made after a match? not a debate performance.

This is what the article says: "Lesnar refused to disclose whether the Canadian facility that he felt was inadequate was a major city hospital or a rural outpost,"

This wasn't a post fight interview, this was a newspaper reporter asking him questions. He couldn't even say it was a major city hospital, which is telling.

[kiryan]

I'll have to reread the article. I may have missed that.

[teflor the ranger]

Clearly the only thing you are capable of is parlaying bullshit with equal or greater amounts of bullshit. If I posted some ridiculous article about how my grandmother had an awful experience in Bismarck ND and then drove 100 mph to Winnipeg to have her life saved and then used that as evidence that the Canadian health care system was superior...I would hope you would mock me.

When you're trying to bring some humorous light to an argument you've already done to death on the boards, and just in general, I don't seek to or enjoy mocking you. I couldn't criticize the Canadian health care system more than the doctors there that wished they could be doctors in the United States, as well as the many doctors that do emigrate here to work in our health care system.

I apologize if I have insulted you, but I seriously can't say any more about socialized medicine vs free market medicine. There are pros and cons to both, and Americans have developed, provided, and distributed more of everything and anything using a market economy that was light on socialism.