something everyone should see and think about

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Todrael
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Re: something everyone should see and think about

Postby Todrael » Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:19 am

Corth
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Re: something everyone should see and think about

Postby Corth » Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:43 am

Here is the law the documentary spends 2 hours looking for:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/ ... -000-.html

I don't know why he makes such a big thing about nobody being able to show the law levying income tax. It's easy enough to find. The bigger argument the tax protestors make is that the 16th amendment, which got rid of the apportionment requirement in the constitution, was not properly ratified. But the validity of the 16th amendment has always been upheld by the courts. Perhaps unjustly, who knows.. but the federal courts have interpreted it as valid, and that is all which really matters. That is why all the big tax protestors, from Irvin Schiff down to Wesley Snipes, pretty much end up in jail.

It's one thing to argue against taxation. It's something totally different to argue it's unlawful.
kiryan
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Re: something everyone should see and think about

Postby kiryan » Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:50 am

just finished watching it, pretty crazy stuff michael moore style except anti tax / government.

The "phone call" at 1:22:00 is pretty much what I fear. You call in to order a pizza, they know who you are, where you work, and btw since you are ordering unhealthy food and have a history, they're going to charge you a $20 fee for ordering it. Yes far fetched, or is it given the soda tax.

--

corth one of their claims is that the definition of income was defined by the supreme court as increases of value / corporate profits. That your wages for working are not technically income as defined by law and court. except by the obvious precedent with cases of tax dodgers you mention. the flip side I think is if its so easy and obvious, why didn't anyone at the IRS produce the law when asked?

I found the 16th amendment argument pretty darn interesting too, but I figure there is an obvious "truth" not being shown because one would think that someoine would've gone after it successfully at some point in time if it wasn't legtimate.
Corth
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Re: something everyone should see and think about

Postby Corth » Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:13 pm

The definition of income argument is silly. Income is defined in the US Code. The movie refers to offhand dicta about the meaning of income from a Supreme Court decision. Even if it was a Supreme Court holding, unless the court found that the meaning came from the constitution itself (hah), whatever the Supreme Court held could be changed by statute. And since there is a statute defining income:

26 USC Sect. 61 (Gross income defined):
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/61.html

26 USC Sect. 63 (taxable income defined):
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/63(a).html

I went into the movie with an open mind. What I did was watch abou 30 minutes of it and then I began to test the specific legal arguments and theories it proposed. Upon scrutiny the arguments and theories fell apart very quickly.

The movie isn't just silly, it's dangerous. And not in the "We don't want you to see this" revolutionary way. Rather, in the, "if you take it seriously and not pay your taxes you will end up in jail way."
teflor the ranger
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Re: something everyone should see and think about

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:50 pm

Thanks, Corth, for injecting some sense into the tax discussion. The individual citizen should give up any idea of evading income taxes unless they're willing to face what happens to revolutionaries.
Turxx
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Re: something everyone should see and think about

Postby Turxx » Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:54 am

ive been looking into it here and there as to the truth of all this
but there have been cases where people have won
the supreme court did rule on the 16th amendment saying it created no new powers of taxation, no lesser court can change that
and if in fact it was never ratified thats moot, a law doesnt become law because one man says so
and finally, elected lawmakers make law, not irs tax code writers
tax code is not law, its tax code, whats in question isnt the code, its whether or not they have the right and authority to enforce it
im still not sure about all this myself, i did have a tax expert cornered a bit ago, i did not have time however to talk to her in detail
but what she said was she has looked into it, there is no law but that doesnt stop them from arresting and incarcerating, without trial or defense, just sit till you pay
if this is true it is every Americans patriotic duty to stand up
unfortunately, most people today are sheep and/or cowards
theres the other thing to think about too, at this point is it a greater evil for the government to admit the lies? if they are in fact, lies....
and one final thought, speaking against unjust tax, abuse of power, or simply questioning authority and the government does not make a person a hater of government, these are in fact the ideals on which this country was founded
our forefathers saw the future and possibilities for this country better then i think most people give them due credit for, and with our bill of rights tried very hard to protect it from the worst of their fears

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." ben franklin
Corth
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Re: something everyone should see and think about

Postby Corth » Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:19 pm

That Supreme Court case, stanton, was right. No new powers of taxation were created by the 16th amendment. Rather, the aportionment condition contained in the constitution was waived so that the pre-existing power of taxing income was broadened.

Rules that are enforceable as law are made all the time by parties other than the legislature. Congress has the constitutional authority to delegate power to other parties, such as cabinet secretaries, for the purpose of making regulations. Congress is responsible for the broad brush strokes of policy, but leaves the very specific stuff to the parties that will administrate the program. It would perhaps be impossible and certainly it would be a bad idea to have Congress micromanaging the huge Federal beaurocracy. The power to delegate is not unlimited, but it is constitutional if done correctly.

The statutes I posted earlier are not regulations. They are laws passed by congress and contained within the US Code. Federal Tax regulations also exist which are promulgated by the Secretary of the Treasury and have the force of law.

As for the 16th Amendment not properly being ratified... I really don't know if it was or wasn't. It is valid law until the Supreme Court says otherwise.

Finally, I agree with you Turxx that the tax system is unjust. I think we would all, both rich and poor, be better off without an income tax altogether. If income must be taxed then I would propose a flat tax in terms of rate, or even better, a flat tax of $XX per person so that everyone contributes equally. But regardless of mine or your personal feelings on the fairness of income taxation, it is basic idiocy to argue with a straight face that the taxing regime is illegal. Eventually either you or someone who listened to you will end up in jail.
kiryan
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Re: something everyone should see and think about

Postby kiryan » Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:35 pm

I agree on the "dangerous" part. Its like a well designed extremist libiertarian / constitutionalist trap. Please turxx, pay your taxes or at least before you decide not to, get a tax attorney to put in writing that in his opinion you don't have to file. Then at least you can sue him for mal practice if it turns out you're wrong.

I'm surprised on the cases that people won, but I'm plenty skeptical given the number of people who have gone to jail for tax evasion and the fact that no major network has run the story... I mean if it was even close to legitimate, fox news at a minimum would pick it up.
Corth
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Re: something everyone should see and think about

Postby Corth » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:54 pm

Most of the people who 'won' the case got off the hook pleading ignorance. The mens rea requirement for criminal tax evasion is "willful" violation of the law. Essentially it is one of the few exceptions to the rule that 'ignorance of the law is not an excuse'. If you are not purposefully breaking the law, but say, for instance, relying upon some crackpot's advice, then you may be able to avoid criminal prosecution. But I haven't heard of anybody actually making the crackpot argument that income tax is illegal and getting off the hook.

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