By the way, this is what government does.

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teflor the ranger
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By the way, this is what government does.

Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:12 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/nyreg ... lmart.html

"The authorities in southern New Jersey said Saturday that they had arrested a 16-year-old boy for activating a public-address system at a Wal-Mart store earlier in the week and ordering “all black people” to leave."

"The boy, whose name was not released because he is a minor, was charged with bias and intimidation and harassment in connection with the episode last Sunday. If convicted, he could face up to a year in a juvenile detention center, officials said."

Yes, this is what government does.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby Corth » Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:37 pm

I'm glad the streets of Southern NJ are so much safer now that they tracked down this kid. Lucky that Walmart and the NJ police were able to devote such resources to their various investigations. Otherwise this kid might have gotten away with murd.. errr, harassment.

Somehow Walmart got boycotted because of this dumb prank too.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby Disoputlip » Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:05 am

Lets hope Obama mingles and offer all black people from the mall + the boy, to come to The White House for a beer.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:07 pm

The professor only got involved that time because the other dude was a coworker.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby kiryan » Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:43 pm

Great job government. track down a kid for being racist and charge him with a hate crime. suspend a kid for making a finger gun at school or bringing in a 2" lego gun. how is this not the same as legislating religious beliefs?
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby Ragorn » Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:54 pm

In what universe is arresting this kid a bad thing? I don't get it.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby Corth » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:36 pm

Well if you are going to take that much trouble to find out who perpetrated the prank, you may as well arrest him for his crimes. I think the fact that this became a national news story with extensive police investigations and boycotting of Walmart is surprising. Or at least dissapointing.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby kiryan » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:10 pm

In the universe where Americans understand what freedom means.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby Sarvis » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:14 pm

kiryan wrote:In the universe where Americans understand what freedom means.


It means the right to hurt others?
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby kiryan » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:34 pm

No sarvis, it means the right to be an individual and pursue your individual needs concerns desires through the application of your resources (including your hard work).

Not the application of your personhood in the interests of the collective.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby Sarvis » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:36 pm

kiryan wrote:No sarvis, it means the right to be an individual and pursue your individual needs concerns desires through the application of your resources (including your hard work).

Not the application of your personhood in the interests of the collective.


Really? In what way was this boy applying his resources to pursue his individual needs, concerns or desires?

Other than the desire to hurt others, of course. He wasn't even using his own resources, for that matter.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby kiryan » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:46 pm

sorry I was still thinking healthcare. I'm a little preoccupied.

--

How are these people hurt? Law used to do a good job of defining harm, but these days you can be injured without suffering any real damages. Someone shouting nigger at you is now somehow the same as a real phsyical assault or perhaps worse due to hatecrime laws.

These people may have been insulted by this kids racist statements, but I highly doubt even one person was actually harmed. If anything, Walmart was the only party injured.

if the kid worked for Walmart, they should definitely fire him. If not, maybe they could prosecute him for trespassing or something of that nature. He should not be arrested for a hate crime; he should not be facing incarceration. This is one step short of thought control. Next thing I know, feds will be charging me with hate crimes and taking my kids away because I use the term "white nigger" to refer to being what amounts to a white slave to the government.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:59 pm

Ragorn wrote:In what universe is arresting this kid a bad thing? I don't get it.

First and foremost, it's an ugly, massive waste of your money (government resources).
edit: please disregard wrote:Secondly, as a minor with a supposed right to free speech, the only 'crime' that occurred would have to be trespassing, IF (doubtful) the store decided to have him charged with such a crime.

Third, putting the collective malice of two hundred years of politics, bad blood, and miserable race relations on a kid pulling a prank that he thought was funny and couldn't have possibly have understood the full force with which hundreds of hours of law enforcement would be brought to bear upon him as a virtual enemy of the state, is cruel, unusual, and morally reprehensible.

What is going to happen to this kid is bullshit. Destroying his future and ruining his life isn't going to provide any relief to those wronged.
Last edited by teflor the ranger on Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby kiryan » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:05 pm

again, show me the wrong the injury. Your feelings being hurt is not being materially injured. Put your big boy panties on.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby Corth » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:07 pm

I think on a whole that was very eloquently written Teflor. Though I would probably leave out the 2nd point - there are indeed plausible criminal code violations here. The bigger issue is the resources expended to catch this criminal mastermind, and in particular your 3rd point about what it represents to the kid and to society as a whole.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:09 pm

Corth wrote:I think on a whole that was very eloquently written Teflor. Though I would probably leave out the 2nd point - there are indeed plausible criminal code violations here. The bigger issue is the resources expended to catch this criminal mastermind, and in particular your 3rd point about what it represents to the kid and to society as a whole.

True, please disregard my second point, it is most likely invalid, I'm sure there are some vague, poorly worded laws ill-conceived in the denial of our unalienable rights that were probably broken.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby Sarvis » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:17 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:
Ragorn wrote:In what universe is arresting this kid a bad thing? I don't get it.

First and foremost, it's an ugly, massive waste of your money (government resources).
edit: please disregard wrote:Secondly, as a minor with a supposed right to free speech, the only 'crime' that occurred would have to be trespassing, IF (doubtful) the store decided to have him charged with such a crime.

Third, putting the collective malice of two hundred years of politics, bad blood, and miserable race relations on a kid pulling a prank that he thought was funny and couldn't have possibly have understood the full force with which hundreds of hours of law enforcement would be brought to bear upon him as a virtual enemy of the state, is cruel, unusual, and morally reprehensible.

What is going to happen to this kid is bullshit. Destroying his future and ruining his life isn't going to provide any relief to those wronged.


First: The cops checked Facebook and the security cameras. Hardly a multi-million dollar investigation here.
Second: I'll bow to Corth's expertise on that one
Third: He faces up to a year in JV. He hasn't been sentenced yet, and part of a judge's job is to determine a FAIR sentence. I'm willing to bet he gets community service and sensitivity training.

Mountain, meet molehill.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:22 pm

Sarvis wrote:First: The cops checked Facebook and the security cameras. Hardly a multi-million dollar investigation here.
Second: I'll bow to Corth's expertise on that one
Third: He faces up to a year in JV. He hasn't been sentenced yet, and part of a judge's job is to determine a FAIR sentence. I'm willing to bet he gets community service and sensitivity training.

Mountain, meet molehill.

Sarvis, the problem I have when I argue with you is that you somehow believe that the arrest, temporary incarceration, court, prosecutor, juvenile hall staff and programs, juvenile parole officers, and technicians to review several hours of dozens of cameras' video are all somehow free. Nevermind the fact that you didn't address half of my points and present no argument. Sarvis, meet reality.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby Sarvis » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:27 pm

Teflor, the first half of the people you listed would be on duty anyway, and the second half might never be involved. Get back to us when he's convicted and sentenced, otherwise 90% of your argument is simply conjecture.

Thank you for reminding me why I shouldn't reply to your posts.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:28 pm

Sarvis wrote:Teflor, the first half of the people you listed would be on duty anyway

and we're done.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby Ragorn » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:24 am

Corth wrote:I think on a whole that was very eloquently written Teflor. Though I would probably leave out the 2nd point - there are indeed plausible criminal code violations here. The bigger issue is the resources expended to catch this criminal mastermind, and in particular your 3rd point about what it represents to the kid and to society as a whole.

You made me read a teflor post. For shame.

What was the actual magnitude of the search? Did they really expend millions of dollars of taxpayer money? Or did some beat cop check the security tape, roll up to this kid's house, and bring him downtown?
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby Corth » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:07 pm

They were inspecting dozens of in store cameras and scouring facebook among other things. How many hours were expended upon it, I have no idea. All I know is that I have personally committed greater crimes than 'harassment' when I was a dumb kid, and never faced anywhere near as much scrutiny.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby Sarvis » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:27 pm

Corth wrote:They were inspecting dozens of in store cameras and scouring facebook among other things. How many hours were expended upon it, I have no idea. All I know is that I have personally committed greater crimes than 'harassment' when I was a dumb kid, and never faced anywhere near as much scrutiny.


So basically the cops in your town were too lazy to leave the donut shop?

I remember one day a we were skipping stones across the canal. A couple hours later a cop was at my door because some guy called in that we were throwing rocks at his boat, moored on the other side of the canal. Nevermind that this was pretty much a physically impossible distance for us to throw...

So tell me, how much money was wasted in _that_ "investigation?" Oh right, none. If the cop hadn't been trying to "scare us straight" he would have just been driving around patrolling.

Same thing with these cops. The only additional cost was maybe the gas to drive to wal mart and review the tape. The Facebook "scouring" was likely done in between games of Farmville.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby kiryan » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:42 pm

Corth wrote:They were inspecting dozens of in store cameras and scouring facebook among other things. How many hours were expended upon it, I have no idea. All I know is that I have personally committed greater crimes than 'harassment' when I was a dumb kid, and never faced anywhere near as much scrutiny.


And why is that... because he said something about black people. a class of people with special rights and protections and laws that embody racism. If he said ugly white women need to leave now it would've been totally different.

--

Sarvis, if those cops weren't investigating this stupid case, they hopefulyl would've been doing something actually useful like I don't know protecting people from real criminals. I bet you there is plenty of overtime occuring in that specific police department.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby Sarvis » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:54 pm

kiryan wrote:
Corth wrote:They were inspecting dozens of in store cameras and scouring facebook among other things. How many hours were expended upon it, I have no idea. All I know is that I have personally committed greater crimes than 'harassment' when I was a dumb kid, and never faced anywhere near as much scrutiny.


And why is that... because he said something about black people. a class of people with special rights and protections and laws that embody racism. If he said ugly white women need to leave now it would've been totally different.

--

Sarvis, if those cops weren't investigating this stupid case, they hopefulyl would've been doing something actually useful like I don't know protecting people from real criminals. I bet you there is plenty of overtime occuring in that specific police department.


Are you prepared to list all the murders that happened that day in Washington Township? Or all the muggings? Or are you just making shit up in your head?

This is not NYC, and even if it was the cops spend 90% of their time driving in circles anyway. Hell, half the reason this probably _was_ pursued so "aggressively" is because it's some small town where the cops have nothing better to do.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby kiryan » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:29 pm

I find it very hard to believe that the cops couldn't be doing something more valuable with their time then tracking down this kid.

THey could've been doing community outreach, they could've been patrolling school zones. ANYTHING would've been a better use of their time chasing down someone who didn't actually harm anyone despite engaging in "hate" language.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby Ragorn » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:36 pm

Corth wrote:They were inspecting dozens of in store cameras and scouring facebook among other things. How many hours were expended upon it, I have no idea. All I know is that I have personally committed greater crimes than 'harassment' when I was a dumb kid, and never faced anywhere near as much scrutiny.

When my brother was a kid, he wrote his name in some wet concrete at a building site. His friend wrote his name too, and the idiot wrote his first AND last name. The cops called every "King" family in the northern Virginia area until they found the right King, and they got my brother's name and showed up at our door. They charged him with vandalism for both the concrete and a broken window on the site that he says he had nothing to do with.

Commence outrage over police officers taking time to do their jobs?

I don't think the issue is about the effort expended in the investigation. I think the question is whether shouting "niggers!" in a crowded theater (so to speak) is or should be a crime.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby Sarvis » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:39 pm

kiryan wrote:they could've been patrolling school zones.


Yes, like I said: driving around in circles.

You're stating this caused additional cost and overtime, yet the reality is the cops would just be patrolling if they weren't spending 5 or 10 minutes reviewing a security tape.

At BEST you could argue the streets were less safe for the amount of time it took to review 5 minutes worth of video. The problem being that patrols are so infrequent anyway that they are hardly a deterrent to crime.

Remember Kiryan, cops only actually have something to do when something happens. So unless you can show there was something more important going on while this "investigation" was happening, the cops did not waste their time or taxpayer money. They, in fact, made BETTER use of their time and taxpayer money by actually doing something besides sitting on their asses and eating donuts.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby Corth » Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:49 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Corth wrote:They were inspecting dozens of in store cameras and scouring facebook among other things. How many hours were expended upon it, I have no idea. All I know is that I have personally committed greater crimes than 'harassment' when I was a dumb kid, and never faced anywhere near as much scrutiny.

When my brother was a kid, he wrote his name in some wet concrete at a building site. His friend wrote his name too, and the idiot wrote his first AND last name. The cops called every "King" family in the northern Virginia area until they found the right King, and they got my brother's name and showed up at our door. They charged him with vandalism for both the concrete and a broken window on the site that he says he had nothing to do with.

Commence outrage over police officers taking time to do their jobs?

I don't think the issue is about the effort expended in the investigation. I think the question is whether shouting "niggers!" in a crowded theater (so to speak) is or should be a crime.


Heheh, I guess the cops in NY have too many other things to deal with. That's a pretty amazing story.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby kiryan » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:46 pm

Look thats vandilism. That is a good investigation because there was harm to the city in the broken window and even to a lesser degree the defacing of the concrete...

--

Sarvis, I bet you there were better things those cops could've been doing. I don't have and I am not going to get proof that this is true, but I'd be extremely surprised if there was no overtime in the department (which the time this investigation took could've been used to reduce) and I'm reasonably confident there were higher payout activities they could've been engagin in. Such as community outreach via foot patrols or rolling through the ghetto or rolling by some schools to make sure our kids are safe from speeding cars and delinquents.

The only positive I see here is that this kid who used some very very poor judgement has had a run in with the law and will get an opportunity to reflect on his actions. I still say charging him with a hate crime is ridiculous, I'd look at some sort of criminal trespass instead. hate crimes legisliation with its intrinsic prejudices / racial / gender biases strike me as the opposite of the notion we are all equal.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby Sarvis » Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:41 pm

kiryan wrote:I'd be extremely surprised if there was no overtime in the department (which the time this investigation took could've been used to reduce) and I'm reasonably confident there were higher payout activities



Kiryan, this township is 33% smaller than my city and last Wednesday in my city only 3 things happened. All of them being warrant servings, where the person immediately surrendered. Not so much as a foot chase, yet you can bet there were at least 2 cops on duty for every shift. Meaning 6 cops to cover three warrant servings in 24 hours.

How the fuck would they not have time to review a security tape?!?!

And that's a pretty conservative estimate for on duty officers.

(I'd look through Washington Township's own police blotter, but either nothing ever happens or they're "too busy" to actually post anything.

They DO maintain a facebook page though! I guess posting status updates is probably more important than "scouring" Facebook to find this perp, but at least we know the cop would have been sitting on Facebook anyway.
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Re: By the way, this is what government does.

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:09 am

I thought it didn't take a genius to realize that you only need 50 cops when you rack in 2,000 hours of enforcement per week, rather than 45 when you only have 1,800.

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