Getting Cancer getting easier by the day...

[Pril]

This article is just sad. There's a bunch of stuff out there on this now this is just a short glimpse into this.

http://gawker.com/5515697/turning-on-th ... ses-cancer

[Corth]

Wouldn't it be easier for them to simply tell us what DOESN'T cause cancer? :)

[Sarvis]

Giving all your yellow skittles to a friend is the only thing that doesn't cause cancer. :P

[teflor the ranger]

It does, just cancer for your friend.

[Ashiwi]

There's a reason curing cancer is what Americans are best at when it comes to healthcare. We have to have a whole lot of cancers to cure in order to support all those specialized treatment centers, so we have to have tons and tons of reasons for diagnostic tests to find the cancers that create the money.

Like greed and corruption, most types of cancer have probably existed for ages. We just didn't used to live long enough for them to spread to the point where they were a noticeable issue.

My personal feeling is that if we stopped all cancer treatment tomorrow, the lifespan of human beings wouldn't be cut short by more than a teeny tiny fraction of a percentage. And of those cases, the vast majority of them would be limited to a small handful of known variants. There's even a possibility that a good chunk of cancer survivors would live longer without treatment.

[teflor the ranger]

I'm very sorry, sir, but I've diagnosed you with a condition that, if you chose to accept treatment, will empty out your retirement, your assets, any equity left on your properties, your bank accounts, your spouse's accounts, your working children's accounts, any credit that you may have, and sometimes money from your family, friends, and church - to go to me, my pharmaceutical sponsors, and the hospital that writes my checks.

Again, I'm very sorry. But you don't want to die, right?

"And how sure are you that I need this treatment and not something else?"

Not at all sure, but I did find some bullshit protein markers that say this is the best treatment available*.


*(an additional 5% of patients in a bullshit study survived 5 years! Teh Bestzors. Only $599999. Extra. p.p.s. we don't understand how the body works at all! we can't even figure out how the body metabolizes or disposes of some drugs we commonly prescribe! Maybe it goes away by magic!)


So here's a good question. Who's being greedy? The medical industry that sells you sugar bullshit and lies, or the patient that will trample over a lifetime of finances and the wealth of those willing to help just so they can stave off death for a little while longer? Or isn't it really just both? Or is there nothing actually wrong with this picture?

Cancer is tragic. Many things are. The truth is that people can really only make some situations marginally better.

[Corth]

It all comes down to cost-benefit analysis. If it's going to bankrupt me for a chance to extend my life a few months.. I'd rather see that money go to my family. If I might be able to get a few years out of it then it's probably worth the risk.

[teflor the ranger]

It all comes down to cost-benefit analysis. If it's going to bankrupt me for a chance to extend my life a few months.. I'd rather see that money go to my family. If I might be able to get a few years out of it then it's probably worth the risk.

Yes, I think this is true of most sensible people that want to see their lives go to something other than the health care industry.

[Sarvis]

It all comes down to cost-benefit analysis. If it's going to bankrupt me for a chance to extend my life a few months..

For some reason the phrase "There are no atheists in a foxhole" comes to mind.

It's easy to say you'd choose death, until you're staring it in the face. In fact I'll bett your family wouldn't be rooting for the insurance money, either.

[Corth]

Well, I'm not terminally ill as far as I know, so perhaps things might change if I'm staring death in the face. However, knowing myself pretty well, I just couldn't imagine being selfish enough that I would spend all my money simply to stick around for a few extra months. I'm pretty sure that when it comes down to it, the life of my family is much more important than my own life - to me.

Besides, most of us sell our life every day for money. It's called a job. I don't think there is anything too nuanced about it. Cost benefit analysis. I trade X amount of my time for Y amount of money on a regular basis now. Why would I do anything different later?

[Sarvis]

Because there's a difference between doing something that gives you a sense of worth and ceasing to exist?

Also, if your wife was dying... would you rather have the money, or a few extra months to spend with her?

[Corth]

I think things are different, Sarvis, when you have children.

If this was Hollywood then sure, I'd give everything I own including my left testicle for the opportunity to spend an extra month or two with my dying wife.

In real life I love my wife very much. But if we're talking about a trade off between extending her life a short period of time in exchange for losing the house where we raise our children, their college savings, etc. I would like to think that both of us would look at the bigger picture should this sort of thing ever happen.

[Sarvis]

Your kids aren't going to care about the money or the house, either.

[teflor the ranger]

Kids often also care about pot more than going to college.

[Sarvis]

So who do you think does worse, kids who grow up poor... or kids who lose a parent at a young age?

Not an easy decision, I'll give you that. But I don't think people who chose to try and live as long as possible to be with their families are necessarily being selfish.

[teflor the ranger]

The problem with your post is that it is an extremely narrow argument that targets a incredibly small percentage of actual cancer patients.

[Sarvis]

We aren't talking about cancer patients, we're talking about Corth saying he'd be brave enough just accept death so that he can save money on medical bills.

[teflor the ranger]

I'm not sure what the merits are of a single imaginary case are, but ok.

[Sarvis]

I'm not sure what the merits of bothering to respond to you are, for that matter...

[teflor the ranger]

I'm not sure what the merits of bothering to respond to you are, for that matter...

Isn't that kind of your problem?

[Pril]

I think Corth is right. The reality is there's no point to waste all of your families savings for 2-3 months worth of life. What exactly are you going to accomplish in those 2 months? You'll be dead anyways but your family will be left broke. As Corth said it would be different if you could life for an extended period of time but for a short time it's just not worth it.

[Botef]

I just lost my father to cancer a month ago, he was 53. He was diagnosed in March 2009 as a stage 4 kidney cancer patient. At the time there was, despite the late stage of his condition, every reason to believe his life could be prolonged by going through treatment. He did very well up until the end of January, and until that point we had every reason to believe the treatments were working and that -while his cancer may never be cured, he would at least live a few more years and be able to watch my sister graduate at Cornell. Unfortunately with Cancer you never know how things are going to go, and in February after several months of good heath and positive responses to his treatment the Cancer kicked into high gear. I watched him go from happy, healthy and optimistic to weighing 80 pounds and breathing his last breath. Fortunately he found his peace and the last month of his life was, despite his condition, painless and spent with family.

I understand the concern about spending such enormous amounts of money on what is often a losing battle. Stage 4 patients don't have very good odds, and we all knew that a year ago going into this. But there is a greater consideration here, and that is there is no sure thing with Cancer. We had every reason to believe he had a shot, his health was on the mend and he was happy and enjoying his life. Had we accepted defeat a year ago we might never have made it this far, we might not have enjoyed the time we did have. To say that this wasn't worth the expense and degrade a family's personal decision to one of economic sense is insensitive to the reality of losing a family member.

The point is you DON'T know, there is no expiration date stamped on your foot and if someone thinks they have a shot of attending their daughters graduation you shouldn't be surprised that they double down and take the odds. The reason someone would wager their life savings for a few more months is complicated, but it has nothing to do with accomplishments or even a half baked notion you have cancer licked. It has everything to do with family, and I suspect that many of you faced with a similar situation would opt to take that chance.

[Todrael]

*whoosh!* This sounds like a job for Math Man!

The Quality-Adjusted Life Year (QALY) used in cost-utility analysis (CUA) is the standard practice. "In North America, US $50,000 per QALY is often suggested as a threshold incremental cost-effectiveness ratio (ICER) for a cost-effective intervention."

This way you can avoid all the gooey "those moments were precious and priceless and you never can tell whether it might have worked *sniffle*." (heartlessness ftw)

[Corth]

It all comes down to cost-benefit analysis. If it's going to bankrupt me for a chance to extend my life a few months.. I'd rather see that money go to my family. If I might be able to get a few years out of it then it's probably worth the risk.

The actual outcome is irrelevent. What matters is the probabilities. If I thought there was a reasonable chance of gaining years of life from an expensive medical intervention, I would do it in a heartbeat. The fact that I might be dead 2 months later anyway is irrelevent to whether it was the right move at the time.

If I'm Steve Jobs then I spend millions of dollars, even for a few extra months. Actually it seems like he may have bought himself years. Good for him.

[teflor the ranger]

Botef, all due respect and shared sorrow for you and your family, as well as all those that have been touched by debilitating disease that slowly rob a person's life, rather than something that happens suddenly.

That aside, the debate over what the effort to fight cancer is worth in terms of dollars may be a cold figure because of the paper bills involved, but those paper bills do represent more than just money. You are correct about how there are few sure things with cancer - not all cancers can be correctly identified - medical science is never certain.

That being said, it is this uncertainty that makes treating aggressive or late stage cancers a gamble. It is one that people have to consider and think about very hard when it comes to how much you want to bet and what the payout is worth to you and your family.

A friend of mine blamed the insurance companies, the hospitals, the doctors, and the lawyers for the death of their loved one. But the truth of the matter is, even if they had every piece of technology and all the money in the world, that loved one could have stepped out of the hospital completely cured to get crushed to death by a grandma driving a Range Rover. People do eventually die and life does end. A diagnosis of cancer doesn't always mean that you should 'bet the farm.' Because sometimes, actually, often, you could lose more than just your future days, but a lot of the value from your past ones too.

Insurance is betting small parts of a collective's farms that opted in.
Public health care is betting a small part of everyone's farms, often against their will.

[Ashiwi]

::cough::

A lack of healthcare reform is stealing pieces of the farm, dirt clod by dirt clod, and giving the farmer's crops away to people who never held a shovel.

[teflor the ranger]

::cough::

A lack of healthcare reform is stealing pieces of the farm, dirt clod by dirt clod, and giving the farmer's crops away to people who never held a shovel.

Indeed. This nation is lacking in healthcare reform, especially after that piece of shit they passed in Congress that basically creates a huge money funnel to the healthcare industry.